Did Renly plan to make Stannis his heir?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Renly and Stannis not being able to work together is one of the tragedies of the series in my opinion. If they could actually work as a team, they would have actually been a good combination – iron will and a sense of justice on the one side, social skills and pragmatism on the other. The parlay at Storms End shows why they can’t put aside their differences, they are as Tyrion said, too different and yet too alike.

Renly’s original plan wasn’t to take the throne, but after Robert died and Ned was killed, he decided it was the best course. It was a mixture of self-preservation and ambition. He can’t tolerate the Lannisters on the throne, and yet he doesn’t appear to consider for five minutes whether to offer the throne to Stannis. The reason for that is quite simple - why the hell should he? As far as Renly knows, Stannis is fourth in line to the throne, Renly fifth. Therefore, neither can justifiably claim the throne, and any claim they have rests solely on military might. On that point, Renly is clearly superior. Why would he hand over the largest army in the kingdoms assembled at that time to a brother who he hates and who hates him back? That sounds more like a Ned move to me.

Renly says he thinks that Stannis would make an awful king, and he would make a good one. I don’t think he’s wrong. Even if he is, I think he genuinely believes that. It’s not exactly a valid argument in an inheritance dispute, but from a purely pragmatic stance I think it’s entirely reasonable.

When Stannis does make his claim, Renly’s reaction, it appears, is to think that Stannis is lying about the twincest. That’s where we get to their differences. Renly doesn’t care about the “justice” of his claim, and thinks that Stannis is just making stuff up, as he would have done. It never occurs to him that Stannis is actually motivated by a sense of right and duty, he just sees another man trying to leap to the front of the line of succession, a naked power play.

On the OP’s question. If Renly thought it would actually help him gain the throne, he may have offered Stannis becoming heir until he got Margaery with child, but I doubt that would have been for long. He offered Stannis Storms End of course, which is a more serious offer, but Stannis didn’t accept the latter and wouldn’t have accepted the former. It would have been a risk, to keep an elder brother around after having seized the throne. If Renly’s clever (and he’s no fool), he probably would have got rid of Stannis sooner or later. However, Renly knew that Stannis wouldn’t accept his offer, so it really was academic. He knew the parley was pointless, and really only used it as an opportunity to wind Stannis up.

[Bernie Mac]

On 8/27/2018 at 8:06 PM, hodorisfaclessman said:

-His reason is he wants to seem reasonable before the kinslaying he knew too well hed have to do

That is a stretch. He is offering the Stormlands for less than 5k men, that is beyond being reasonable. The vast majority of nobles will have certainly took Renly up on the offer. 

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-he was rightfuly king and renly was in open rebellion  he had every right

We know that, neither Stannis or Renly do. 

As it stood Joffrey, the acknowledged heir of Robert Baratheon, was the legal king and Stannis was offering no evidence to contradict this. 

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-they give renly more of a shine than the vain self centred character from the books  meanwhile stannis is now a fanatic bending easily to mels every word 

In what way? You are being awfully vague here.

Regarding Stannis, the show passed his storyline long ago, but no one was calling him a fanatic until his final season when he disposed of his daughter.

 

On 8/27/2018 at 8:54 PM, hodorisfaclessman said:

1) he suspected why and fled to instantly crown himself the new king ,he doesnt reach out to stannis at all despite the clear advantages of both baratheons working together

There are more advantages for Renly to work with the Tyrells than there is Stannis. He needs their support more than he needs Stannis.

On 8/27/2018 at 8:54 PM, hodorisfaclessman said:

2)he offers ned help only on the condition ned help  crown renly king,

that is blatantly not true. His only term was the removal of Cersei from power, he was more than happy for Ned to rule via the underage Joffrey.

On 8/27/2018 at 8:54 PM, hodorisfaclessman said:

 

rejecting that he basicaly leaves ned to die .

He warns Ned that should they let Cersei gain power then she will destroy the two of them. Ned ignores him and is, per Renly's prediction, destroyed. 

Why would he hang around when he knew what his fate would be if he stayed?

On 8/27/2018 at 8:54 PM, hodorisfaclessman said:

 

He has no need to crown himself to defend himself either 

He actually does, he needs an alliance with the Reach and the Tyrells and their bannerman will want to be rewarded. A king is able to offer better rewards than the Lord of the Stormlands, to stand a chance he needs the Tyrells to rebel. 

On 8/27/2018 at 8:54 PM, hodorisfaclessman said:

3)again the stormlords and tyrells are his anyway

The Tyrells are not. The Stormlands owe their fealty to both Renly and Joffrey, we even see some stormland Houses remain neutral. 

On 8/27/2018 at 8:54 PM, hodorisfaclessman said:

 

so no need to crown himself a king yet does so anyway

There clearly is. The Tyrells are ambitious, they like Renly but an actual king can offer better incentives for their 'loyalty'. 

On 8/27/2018 at 8:54 PM, hodorisfaclessman said:

He doesnt do his duty as younger brother

There is a duty to your monarch, lord, patriarch/matriarch and father. There is no such duty to an older brother.

On 8/27/2018 at 8:54 PM, hodorisfaclessman said:

or even  reach out to stannis before this 

Why would he? They are not close and Stannis has been silent for 9 months.

 

On 8/27/2018 at 9:30 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Stannis sent Davos around the Stormlands in between books, possibly earlier.

Not earlier, not according to the information we have in AGOT about Renly's crowning and Stannis' silence.

On 8/27/2018 at 9:30 PM, Hugorfonics said:

 

Still after Renly but a good deal before they met in Stormsend. There was plenty of time for Renly to relinquish his claim. 

on what grounds?  Stannis is offering zero evidence 

On 8/27/2018 at 9:30 PM, Hugorfonics said:

If Renly listens to Mace, whos proven to be greedy, hes not headed for a good start. 

He's proven to be ambitious, the vast majority of the nobility are greedy in that respect. 

 

 

 

 

[honorable men]

The Tyrells were going to usurp Renly if he made Stannis his heir

 

L-O-L

[Hugorfonics]

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

There is a duty to your monarch, lord, patriarch/matriarch and father. There is no such duty to an older brother.

Sure there is. 

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Aerys? If you only knew . . . that was a hard choosing. My blood or my liege. My brother or my king." He grimaced.

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

on what grounds?  Stannis is offering zero evidence 

"It's treason, I warned them, Robert has two sons, and Renly has an older brother, how can he possibly have any claim to that ugly iron chair?

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Besides, there was evidence, Renly chose to ignore it

.

"I beg you, my lord, grant me leave to go to your brother Stannis and tell him what I suspect."

"To what end?"

"Robb will set aside his crown if you and your brother will do the same," she said, hoping it was true. She would make it true if she must; Robb would listen to her, even if his lords would not. "Let the three of you call for a Great Council, such as the realm has not seen for a hundred years. We will send to Winterfell, so Bran may tell his tale and all men may know the Lannisters for the true usurpers. Let the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms choose who shall rule them."

Renly laughed. "Tell me, my lady, do direwolves vote on who should lead the pack?" Brienne brought the king's gauntlets and greathelm, crowned with golden antlers that would add a foot and a half to his height. "The time for talk is done. Now we see who is stronger."

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 He's proven to be ambitious, the vast majority of the nobility are greedy in that respect. 

The vast majority? Whos as greedy as Mace? Who else would try to finagle their daughter into Roberts bed with no enmity from Lannister? Who else would confiscate all of their vassels lands? Name some please.

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"You speak my tongue. Can I sway you with promises, or are you determined to buy a lordship with my head?"

"I was a lord, by right of birth. I want no hollow titles."

[Tagganaro]

On 8/28/2018 at 8:25 AM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Renly and Stannis not being able to work together is one of the tragedies of the series in my opinion. If they could actually work as a team, they would have actually been a good combination – iron will and a sense of justice on the one side, social skills and pragmatism on the other. The parlay at Storms End shows why they can’t put aside their differences, they are as Tyrion said, too different and yet too alike.

Renly’s original plan wasn’t to take the throne, but after Robert died and Ned was killed, he decided it was the best course. It was a mixture of self-preservation and ambition. He can’t tolerate the Lannisters on the throne, and yet he doesn’t appear to consider for five minutes whether to offer the throne to Stannis. The reason for that is quite simple - why the hell should he? As far as Renly knows, Stannis is fourth in line to the throne, Renly fifth. Therefore, neither can justifiably claim the throne, and any claim they have rests solely on military might. On that point, Renly is clearly superior. Why would he hand over the largest army in the kingdoms assembled at that time to a brother who he hates and who hates him back? That sounds more like a Ned move to me.

Renly says he thinks that Stannis would make an awful king, and he would make a good one. I don’t think he’s wrong. Even if he is, I think he genuinely believes that. It’s not exactly a valid argument in an inheritance dispute, but from a purely pragmatic stance I think it’s entirely reasonable.

When Stannis does make his claim, Renly’s reaction, it appears, is to think that Stannis is lying about the twincest. That’s where we get to their differences. Renly doesn’t care about the “justice” of his claim, and thinks that Stannis is just making stuff up, as he would have done. It never occurs to him that Stannis is actually motivated by a sense of right and duty, he just sees another man trying to leap to the front of the line of succession, a naked power play.

On the OP’s question. If Renly thought it would actually help him gain the throne, he may have offered Stannis becoming heir until he got Margaery with child, but I doubt that would have been for long. He offered Stannis Storms End of course, which is a more serious offer, but Stannis didn’t accept the latter and wouldn’t have accepted the former. It would have been a risk, to keep an elder brother around after having seized the throne. If Renly’s clever (and he’s no fool), he probably would have got rid of Stannis sooner or later. However, Renly knew that Stannis wouldn’t accept his offer, so it really was academic. He knew the parley was pointless, and really only used it as an opportunity to wind Stannis up.

100% agree with all this.  Well said.  I think I said on another thread that the tragic irony of all this is that Renly + Stannis would have been the perfect King but neither is really fit in their own right to be King.  Donal Noye sort of summed everything up pretty well when he compared them to the different metals.  

Renly has absolutely no reason to support Stannis- neither does anyone else for that matter, when you consider that he has no proof of the incest.  Otherwise, things may have been different and Renly may have supported him.