Did Renly plan to make Stannis his heir?

[hodorisfaclessman]

40 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That's not even remotely canon.

Then break down his reasons? Hes nowhere near blind enough to think stannis will kneel to him so he clearly thought nowt of stepping over his corpse

[hodorisfaclessman]

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He was offering his brother Storm's End and the Stormlands in exchange for less than 5k soldiers. Of course Renly assumed his brother would accept when to any layman Stannis' had zero chance of winning the throne. 

There is no reason for Renly to enter into negotiation if he did not think Stannis would agree to it. 

yeah, he did. Stannis had no authority in the Stormlands. 

That is crazy considering the show turned an ambiguously gay character into a flamboyant homosexual who whined when he was cut while at the same time had  Stannis leading from the front in battle and giving (semi) inspirational speeches to his men before war. 

Stannis was pretty much the most popular character in season 2 and 3 among show watchers, this idea that the writers hated the character is clearly not shown through the non-book reading fandom. They even made him a more sympathetic father given there are no interactions with his daughter in the books.

 

-His reason is he wants to seem reasonable before the kinslaying he knew too well hed have to do

 

-he was rightfuly king and renly was in open rebellion  he had every right

-they give renly more of a shine than the vain self centred character from the books  meanwhile stannis is now a fanatic bending easily to mels every word 

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

and not one that has any bearing on what I said. Renly's IQ has nothing to do with him believing that Stannis, who had whined for almost a decade about Storm's End. could not be swayed by Renly's generous offer. 

Its generous to like a smallfolk, not conservative ass Stannis. Renly read Stannis' letter. If he thought Ser Jaimes bastards signed in the lord of the light was about leveraging a deal for his fathers house, then he was an idiot.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, he did not. Stannis had already attacked, he would be perfectly in his rights to attack. Given away Storm's End is not saving face. It is far too great a prize for the pitiful support Stannis could provide. 

Its within his rights, but he wont. Nobody does, its rude to turn down an invitation.

 

"Are there any terms you will accept?" he demanded of the Blackfish.

"From you?" Ser Brynden shrugged. "No."

"Why did you even come to treat with me?"

"A siege is deadly dull. I wanted to see this stump of yours and hear whatever excuses you cared to offer up for your latest enormities. They were feebler than I'd hoped. You always disappoint, Kingslayer."

. 

There was some feel of peace talks in the air, and i heard Stormsend get mentioned but I also heard about fruit and Cat beating her kids. It was a passionate talk built on feelings. Stannis regretted it and Renly found it amusing

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He's also not an idiot. 5k was not enough to win the crown. 

Probably not. Whats Young Griff got? Around that I think

.

Dany called the Dothraki around her. Fewer than a hundred were left. How many had Aegon started with? she wondered. It did not matter.

 

Its not about what you start with

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Stannis has a mystic telling him some foreign God supports him becoming King, Renly is not aware that his sensible brother is not only drinking the kool aid but there is some truth in it, Stannis has magic on his side. 

Renlys aware of the kool aid, he read the letter. He doesnt think it works because its just sugar,  food dye and water but hes aware.

51 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That's not even remotely canon.

Looks right to me

[Universal Sword Donor]

14 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

Then break down his reasons? Hes nowhere near blind enough to think stannis will kneel to him so he clearly thought nowt of stepping over his corpse

Well let's break down the post I was responding to:

Quote

 

Renly knew quite rightly what stannis stance was and would be and still wanted to be king

Renly is an a-hole he chose to claim the crown by force knowing too well he had no claim and that hed have to step over his brothers corpse first all because he thought hed be awesome at being a king

 

1) Renly didn't know anything except Stannis was incommunicado for months after he left KL for DS. We later learn through Tywin/Tyrion that he's been amassing men and ships at DS. No one, however, in the capital knows why he is doing this, despite Ned's many efforts to reach out.

2) Renly has a weaker claim than Joff, Myrcella, Tommen, and Stannis. He does still have a claim though, being a close blood relative of the reigning king. He does want to be king. That is not up for debate. The reasons why, however, are clear long before he crowns himself. He tells Ned to move before Cersei because it will be too late for them if they wait (it was for Ned). He rides out of KL well before Robert even dies. Later he explicitly tells Catelyn that he feared for his safety. He declared himself king to keep himself safe. Once again, Stannis hadn't even crowned himself yet OR published his letter for Westeros to read.

3) Now was he an asshole at the parlay? Yes and no. Regardless of whether or not he "knew" Stannis would reject the offer, he still went through the motions and made an overly generous offer to a man who'd attacked him without provocation. He was perfectly willing to kill a brother he didn't like but it's not as if he made that decision in a vacuum. There's a pretty clear timeline and transformation of Renly's character in the first two books, mostly from his own mouth and actions, that shows that.

Had Stannis communicated his intentions to Renly early on and the outcome the same, Renly would be entirely to blame here. However when Stannis leaves him alone in what he himself calls a pit of vipers and doesn't respond to anyone, are you really going to blame Renly for protecting himself?

Notions that he could realistically bend the knee and keep his army are folly too. Stannis can't offer him a like for like deal -- Shereen ceases to be heir if he fathers a son -- and Mace explicitly wants a grandson on the IT. Bending the knee to the drastically less powerful army is humiliating (and unnecessary) so that wasn't going to happen. If there had been prior communication it might have been avoided all together but the way it was handled, mostly by Stannis, doomed that effort from the beginning for both men.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Looks right to me

It's kind of, halfway correct if you basically ignore everything Stannis did (or didn't do) before he crowned himself.

[hodorisfaclessman]

15 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Well let's break down the post I was responding to:

1) Renly didn't know anything except Stannis was incommunicado for months after he left KL for DS. We later learn through Tywin/Tyrion that he's been amassing men and ships at DS. No one, however, in the capital knows why he is doing this, despite Ned's many efforts to reach out.

2) Renly has a weaker claim than Joff, Myrcella, Tommen, and Stannis. He does still have a claim though, being a close blood relative of the reigning king. He does want to be king. That is not up for debate. The reasons why, however, are clear long before he crowns himself. He tells Ned to move before Cersei because it will be too late for them if they wait (it was for Ned). He rides out of KL well before Robert even dies. Later he explicitly tells Catelyn that he feared for his safety. He declared himself king to keep himself safe. Once again, Stannis hadn't even crowned himself yet OR published his letter for Westeros to read.

3) Now was he an asshole at the parlay? Yes and no. Regardless of whether or not he "knew" Stannis would reject the offer, he still went through the motions and made an overly generous offer to a man who'd attacked him without provocation. He was perfectly willing to kill a brother he didn't like but it's not as if he made that decision in a vacuum. There's a pretty clear timeline and transformation of Renly's character in the first two books, mostly from his own mouth and actions, that shows that.

Had Stannis communicated his intentions to Renly early on and the outcome the same, Renly would be entirely to blame here. However when Stannis leaves him alone in what he himself calls a pit of vipers and doesn't respond to anyone, are you really going to blame Renly for protecting himself?

Notions that he could realistically bend the knee and keep his army are folly too. Stannis can't offer him a like for like deal -- Shereen ceases to be heir if he fathers a son -- and Mace explicitly wants a grandson on the IT. Bending the knee to the drastically less powerful army is humiliating (and unnecessary) so that wasn't going to happen. If there had been prior communication it might have been avoided all together but the way it was handled, mostly by Stannis, doomed that effort from the beginning for both men.

 

1) he suspected why and fled to instantly crown himself the new king ,he doesnt reach out to stannis at all despite the clear advantages of both baratheons working together

2)he offers ned help only on the condition ned help  crown renly king, rejecting that he basicaly leaves ned to die . He has no need to crown himself to defend himself either 

3)again the stormlords and tyrells are his anyway so no need to crown himself a king yet does so anyway

He doesnt do his duty as younger brother or even  reach out to stannis before this 

[Hugorfonics]

18 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

It's kind of, halfway correct if you basically ignore everything Stannis did (or didn't do) before he crowned himself.

I see what your saying, and I can get behind Renly crowning himself to not kneel in front of Cersei (Illyn) but there were more things in play too.

Firstly, Tyrell. They had some type of scheme with Margery and KL. Tyrell has no problems with Lannister (no more them most), their scheme was not preservation but greed.

Secondly, Stannis and his army. Sure no one knew what he was up to, but what else could it be? If Renly fled and crowned himself in preservation why wouldnt Stannis? Plus why else recruit an army?

So if we dont believe in Renlys greed to reach the throne, we must trust in Tyrells greed or their loathe to serving a "lesser" house. Neither shows Renly in a positive light

[Universal Sword Donor]

5 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

1) he suspected why and fled to instantly crown himself the new king ,he doesnt reach out to stannis at all despite the clear advantages of both baratheons working together

2)he offers ned help only on the condition ned help  crown renly king, rejecting that he basicaly leaves ned to die . He has no need to crown himself to defend himself either 

3)again the stormlords and tyrells are his anyway so no need to crown himself a king yet does so anyway

He doesnt do his duty as younger brother or even  reach out to stannis before this 

1) Stannis has been refusing to work with or respond to anyone. Stannis and Renly also hate each other, so why wait to see if he'll even respond if you're trying to save your life. Like I said, he leaveS KL before Robert even dies.

2) No he specifically tells Ned he wants to crown Joff and make Ned LP and Regent. 

“Strike! Now, while the castle sleeps.” Renly looked back at Ser Boros again and dropped his voice to an urgent whisper. “We must get Joffrey away from his mother and take him in hand. Protector or no, the man who holds the king holds the kingdom. We should seize Myrcella and Tommen as well. Once we have her children, Cersei will not dare oppose us. The council will confirm you as Lord Protector and make Joffrey your ward.”

3) The Stormlords are his, but the tyrells are only his through crowning himself. Mace wants a son on the IT. Renly offered first and then the Lannisters later. His behavior is entirely consistent with prioritizing a royal marriage and grandchild than staying loyal to the throne.

This is all straight out of the book. No need to even slant in through my own eyes.

You can argue that Renly didn't act as a younger brother should, and he admits as much. However the greater failing here is that of the older brother. He doesn't tell Renly he's in danger, which is ostensibly why he fled. He didn't reveal the Lannister secret to anyone. He also started massing warships and hiring mercenaries while Robert was still alive.

 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I see what your saying, and I can get behind Renly crowning himself to not kneel in front of Cersei (Illyn) but there were more things in play too.

Firstly, Tyrell. They had some type of scheme with Margery and KL. Tyrell has no problems with Lannister (no more them most), their scheme was not preservation but greed.

Secondly, Stannis and his army. Sure no one knew what he was up to, but what else could it be? If Renly fled and crowned himself in preservation why wouldnt Stannis? Plus why else recruit an army?

So if we dont believe in Renlys greed to reach the throne, we must trust in Tyrells greed or their loathe to serving a "lesser" house. Neither shows Renly in a positive light

Yeah the Tyrells were willing to provide men and protection for Renly marrying Marg. No debate there. Mace has consistently shown ambition in that regard.

Defense? Why would an uncle attack KL and his family? Well we know why -- incest and Cersei wants him dead -- but he's not bothering to explain that to anyone. If Stannis had declared first and spread word of the incest, then you'd have a point but he did not. Renly was already marching north by the time Stannis published his letter, and even Stannis himself doesn't mention survival (of the realm like he does at the Wall or his personal survival). He mentions his rights to the throne.

I don't really see how the Tyrell greed/ambition is up for debate, personally. Also don't see how that reflects poorly on Renly. As to the Tyrells serving a lesser house, well they hitched their bandwagon to Renly because he can offer them the exact deal they want. If Stannis were unwed and willing to marry Marg, I'd imagine Mace would have been receptive to his offers as well.

[Hugorfonics]

5 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Defense? Why would an uncle attack KL and his family? Well we know why -- incest and Cersei wants him dead -- but he's not bothering to explain that to anyone. If Stannis had declared first and spread word of the incest, then you'd have a point but he did not. Renly was already marching north by the time Stannis published his letter, and even Stannis himself doesn't mention survival (of the realm like he does at the Wall or his personal survival). He mentions his rights to the throne.

Stannis sent Davos around the Stormlands in between books, possibly earlier. Still after Renly but a good deal before they met in Stormsend. There was plenty of time for Renly to relinquish his claim. 

12 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I don't really see how the Tyrell greed/ambition is up for debate, personally. Also don't see how that reflects poorly on Renly. As to the Tyrells serving a lesser house, well they hitched their bandwagon to Renly because he can offer them the exact deal they want. If Stannis were unwed and willing to marry Marg, I'd imagine Mace would have been receptive to his offers as well.

If Renly listens to Mace, whos proven to be greedy, hes not headed for a good start. 

I agree, Mace just wanted regal grandkids. #SansaforKingslayer 

[hodorisfaclessman]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

1) Stannis has been refusing to work with or respond to anyone. Stannis and Renly also hate each other, so why wait to see if he'll even respond if you're trying to save your life. Like I said, he leaveS KL before Robert even dies.

2) No he specifically tells Ned he wants to crown Joff and make Ned LP and Regent. 

“Strike! Now, while the castle sleeps.” Renly looked back at Ser Boros again and dropped his voice to an urgent whisper. “We must get Joffrey away from his mother and take him in hand. Protector or no, the man who holds the king holds the kingdom. We should seize Myrcella and Tommen as well. Once we have her children, Cersei will not dare oppose us. The council will confirm you as Lord Protector and make Joffrey your ward.”

3) The Stormlords are his, but the tyrells are only his through crowning himself. Mace wants a son on the IT. Renly offered first and then the Lannisters later. His behavior is entirely consistent with prioritizing a royal marriage and grandchild than staying loyal to the throne.

This is all straight out of the book. No need to even slant in through my own eyes.

You can argue that Renly didn't act as a younger brother should, and he admits as much. However the greater failing here is that of the older brother. He doesn't tell Renly he's in danger, which is ostensibly why he fled. He didn't reveal the Lannister secret to anyone. He also started massing warships and hiring mercenaries while Robert was still alive.

 

 

 

-he flees to save his life and never once attempts to build an alliance with the man he knows is both his older brother and thus  by the rules of the setting is someone hes supposed to defer  to and also knows/suspects hes propably the legitimate king too

-yep so if he knows joff is illegitimate hes denying his real king or if he thinks joff is real hes advocating holding his own nephew hostage while he forms an alliance with ned to make themselves the defacto rulers of westeros

-stormlords are his which vs lannister might is all he needs 

The greater falining is renlys by far,stannis could have reached out more but renly chose his own  selfish path 

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 minute ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

-he flees to save his life and never once attempts to build an alliance with the man he knows is both his older brother and thus  by the rules of the setting is someone hes supposed to defer  to and also knows/suspects hes propably the legitimate king too

He has no idea Joffrey and his siblings are illegitimate. There's no evidence he did and you keep saying it without proof. Renly tried to work with Ned, who was present, and it failed. He has no time to treat with his absent older brother if he wanted to survive.

1 minute ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

-yep so if he knows joff is illegitimate hes denying his real king or if he thinks joff is real hes advocating holding his own nephew hostage

He doesn't. Renly is willing to jump one spot or four. Either is treason punishable by death. As to his own nephew, are you talking about Edric?

1 minute ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

-stormlords are his which vs lannister might is all he needs 

Lannister and crownlands, plus the Tyrells possibly joining the Lannisters. He needed to secure their support as much as he needed to deny them to the Lannisters. Renly didn't even have all the SL. Cersei as regent has every right to demand SE from him and whittle away his power base.

1 minute ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

The greater falining is renlys by far,stannis could have reached out more but renly chose his own  selfish path 

Renly chose the path of self preservation. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

52 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Stannis sent Davos around the Stormlands in between books, possibly earlier. Still after Renly but a good deal before they met in Stormsend. There was plenty of time for Renly to relinquish his claim. 

If Renly relinquishes his claim, he is once again at risk from the Lannisters. He lacks the strength to fight them alone.

52 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If Renly listens to Mace, whos proven to be greedy, hes not headed for a good start. 

I agree, Mace just wanted regal grandkids. #SansaforKingslayer 

How has Mace misplayed anything so far? Yeah he's greedy/ambitious. How is that not a good start for Renly. He gets what he wants for a marriage alliance he cares little about. Mace is running the show in KL now, so I'd have to say he was doing just fine by courting mace. 

[Hugorfonics]

9 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If Renly relinquishes his claim, he is once again at risk from the Lannisters. He lacks the strength to fight them alone.

Not if he joins his brothers strength 

 

9 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

How has Mace misplayed anything so far? Yeah he's greedy/ambitious. How is that not a good start for Renly. He gets what he wants for a marriage alliance he cares little about. Mace is running the show in KL now, so I'd have to say he was doing just fine by courting mace. 

Hes greedy and foolish, short sighted and fatuous, not the best partner. Mace has painted a target on his back hes doing great now, it wont last

.

He slapped Davos on the back. "Take care. You with your mute friends. You are grown so very great now, yet the higher a man climbs the farther he has to fall."

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not if he joins his brothers strength 

Great so he gets the Stormlands and 5K shitty soldiers against the IT minus the north and RL. He loses the Tyrells if he joins Stannis as anything but the king.

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hes greedy and foolish, short sighted and fatuous, not the best partner. Mace has painted a target on his back hes doing great now, it wont last.

Please walk through how he's all of those. Pretty much any LP in westeros would have aligned with the Lannisters with that offer. Mace hasn't made a single misstep or suffered any bad consequences yet. The Lannisters are falling apart even with the Tyrells propping them up. 

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

He slapped Davos on the back. "Take care. You with your mute friends. You are grown so very great now, yet the higher a man climbs the farther he has to fall."

Yes a quote about Davos from Saan perfectly illustrates what Mace is!

[Frey Kings]

Renly was the Reach's pet boy to get their hands on the Iron Throne. 

[Hugorfonics]

30 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Great so he gets the Stormlands and 5K shitty soldiers against the IT minus the north and RL. He loses the Tyrells if he joins Stannis as anything but the king.

Its not guaranteed that Tyrell would scuff at king Stannis with Relnys support.

30 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Please walk through how he's all of those. Pretty much any LP in westeros would have aligned with the Lannisters with that offer. Mace hasn't made a single misstep or suffered any bad consequences yet. The Lannisters are falling apart even with the Tyrells propping them up. 

No bad consequences? His sons half dead and his daughters in jail. Mace has aligned himself with Lannister and their friends Frey and Bolton. Winter is coming, bad time to be friends with Frey.

30 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yes a quote about Davos from Saan perfectly illustrates what Mace is!

Its a common saying

[Universal Sword Donor]

45 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its not guaranteed that Tyrell would scuff at king Stannis with Relnys support.

It's one of the most spelled out things in the entire book. Even when Stannis has the support of some reach lords, Mace holds fast and allies himself with Tywin

45 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No bad consequences? His sons half dead and his daughters in jail. Mace has aligned himself with Lannister and their friends Frey and Bolton. Winter is coming, bad time to be friends with Frey.

One son is potentially harmed -- though we can't know the veracity of that until WOW comes out -- and the daughter and cousins are in possession of Randyll Tarly. The Freys and Bolton sucking seems not to have blown back at all on the Tyrells, and barely at the Lannisters.

45 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its a common saying

 

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Please walk through how he's all of those.

K. Ill give you quotes

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

greedy

Highgarden reaped the richest harvest. Tyrion eyed Mace Tyrell's broad belly and thought, He has a prodigious appetite, this one.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

foolish

"Best send a raven to Lord Hightower and ask him to make certain your uncle does not take ship. We would hate for Garth to brave an autumn sea for nought." She smiled pleasantly.

A flush crept up Tyrell's thick neck. "This . . . your lord father assured me . . ." He began to sputter.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

short sighted

"And now my oaf son is doing the same, only he's riding a lion instead of a palfrey. It is easy to mount a lion and not so easy to get off, I warned him, but he only chuckles.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

fatuous

The new King's Hand was seated on an oaken throne carved in the shape of a hand, an absurd vanity his lordship had produced the day Ser Kevan agreed to grant him the office he coveted

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

It's one of the most spelled out things in the entire book. Even when Stannis has the support of some reach lords, Mace holds fast and allies himself with Tywin

Thats not guaranteed. Tyrell has some squabble with one of their vassels, we never hear Tyrell or Stannis talking that ill of each other

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

One son is potentially harmed -- though we can't know the veracity of that until WOW comes out -- and the daughter and cousins are in possession of Randyll Tarly. 

Well the other son is permanently harmed. Even if Loras is fine, Margery is not. Serious charges.

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The Freys and Bolton sucking seems not to have blown back at all on the Tyrells, and barely at the Lannisters.

 

Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne.

.

"T'other is one of Randyll Bloody Tarly's bloody household knights."

Hyle Hunt had been beaten so badly that his face was swollen almost beyond recognition. He stumbled as they shoved him, and almost fell.

[Hodor the Articulate]

@hodorisfaclessman USD covered what I was going to say pretty well, so I won't bother replying.

32 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats not guaranteed. Tyrell has some squabble with one of their vassels, we never hear Tyrell or Stannis talking that ill of each other

"Stannis is less forgiving. He will not have forgotten the siege of Storm's End, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dare not. Every man who fought beneath the dragon banner or rose with Balon Greyjoy will have good cause to fear."

Granted, it was LF saying that, but I don't think was wrong or lying. Stannis definitely has a reputation for grudge holding.