U.S. Politics: Death and Tax Cuts

[James Arryn]

49 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah, anyone that thinks the average American thinks torture or killing civilians is cool or passe can go fuck themselves.  Grow the fuck up.  You have zero understanding of American political behavior, and are just clearly just whining like Jace or Kal.

I AM saying you have a hard-on for hating on the US.  I get it, I spent a lot of years acting as you do.  And, plainly, I've always loved Canada.  But your abject and unqualified hatred towards the US is grossly annoying.  Sorry, sorry.  The US is a superpower - start to contextualize that or stop pretending like you know what you're talking about.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/senate-torture-report-public-opinion/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-torture-exclusive-idUSKCN0WW0Y3

http://www.people-press.org/2014/12/15/about-half-see-cia-interrogation-methods-as-justified/#partisan-divide-over-cias-interrogation-methods

...there’s plenty more. Sorry if the facts are inconvenient for your worldview, but thanks for the demonstration. 

Oh, here’s the current President on torture:

http://time.com/4247397/donald-trump-waterboarding-torture/

 

[Bonnot OG]

49 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah, anyone that thinks the average American thinks torture or killing civilians is cool or passe can go fuck themselves.  Grow the fuck up.  You have zero understanding of American political behavior, and are just clearly just whining like Jace or Kal.

I AM saying you have a hard-on for hating on the US.  I get it, I spent a lot of years acting as you do.  And, plainly, I've always loved Canada.  But your abject and unqualified hatred towards the US is grossly annoying.  Sorry, sorry.  The US is a superpower - start to contextualize that or stop pretending like you know what you're talking about.

Define what the average american is before you make such a claim. 

Because quite a lot of Americans were / are okay with civilians getting tortured and killed.  

There is an entire political party that is okay with this and the person sitting in the white house when campaigning said he would target civilians / families of supsected terrorists. Like I said, he is currently sitting in the white house.

I don't see the average American really speaking out against how Israel treats Palestinians, you know, like gunning civilians down and killing them. 

I didn't see massive protests  or outcry over the 40+ school kids in Yemen getting blown into pieces by a US bomb.

He just gave plenty of reasons to hate the US lol. Who do you think you are to say he doesn't have a qualified reason to haha? 

And you just gave him another one as well since lots of Americans are as thin skinned and fragile as you are when it comes to criticisms of this country.

[The Anti-Targ]

21 minutes ago, Bonnot OG said:

Ah, the typical I bet you have never made a mistake sort of bs to justify horrible behavior. 

McCain was a racist. Stop justifying it, which you are regardless of you saying you are not.  You're making an excuse for him being a sack of shit.

And yup, when it comes to racism there is no middle ground. Thinking there is middle ground is such a white position to have. 

I'm don't make excuses like white moderates like yourself do. Your type enables their bullshit and does nothing to combat bigotry.

My father is a racist, no doubt it has to do with 9/11 happening and him having worked in one of the trade centers and how he could have been a casualty of the attack if not for lucking out. But that is a shit excuse and justification on his part for his racism. Plenty of people that were in similair positions as him or McCain came away from their experiences without holding onto racist beliefs. 
 

Indeed. I'm not convinced that experience makes you racist, unless you are somewhat inclined to racism already. When I observe things (e.g. crime rates or education stats of certain races) that make people inclined to racism say: see those bloody [insert race here] are lazy/violent/stupid etc. That is not my response. My response is, surely there's something deeper going on here that's not inherent to the race. That's because I'm inclined away from racism, not towards it. It's possible I'm wrong, but so far in every instance I can think of the reason for bad stats among a particular race has never been because of collective inferiority due to skin colour.

 

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/senate-torture-report-public-opinion/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-torture-exclusive-idUSKCN0WW0Y3

http://www.people-press.org/2014/12/15/about-half-see-cia-interrogation-methods-as-justified/#partisan-divide-over-cias-interrogation-methods

...there’s plenty more. Sorry if the facts are inconvenient for your worldview, but thanks for the demonstration. 

Oh, here’s the current President on torture:

http://time.com/4247397/donald-trump-waterboarding-torture/

 

Wow!  You found links I already knew!  Congratulations!  

None of those advocate what you were saying, as much as you would like them too.  Go back to school kid.

[Altherion]

Somewhat amusingly given the current opinion of this board towards Russia, the Russian reaction to the passing of McCain is not actually all that different from the that of some of the most ardent liberals on this board:

Quote

McCain "adored war. If you haven't been killed yet, that's not McCain's fault. He tried," wrote pro-Kremlin tabloid Komsomolskaya Pravda in a biting editorial.

Accusing the former Navy pilot of lying about being tortured while being held prisoner during the Vietnam War, the popular tabloid concluded with the hope that McCain is now burning in hell.

"Senator McCain loved the flames of war. Let's believe he'll have enough flames where his soul is resting now," it wrote.

...

McCain was "a convinced hawk who pecked at Russia out of principle," Rossiya 1 reported on its main news show on Sunday evening, devoting more than four minutes to the senator's life.

McCain "firmly supported all the military operations and wars that America unleashed -- Kosovo, Iraq, Libya -- if he had not twice lost presidential campaigns, everything could have been even more catastrophic," it reported.

In fact, some highly placed Russians have kinder words for McCain than some Americans on this board:

Quote

Leonid Slutsky, head of the lower house of parliament's foreign affairs committee, told the RIA Novosti state news agency that McCain was a "courageous and principled person".

Oleg Morozov, a member of the Senate's foreign affairs committee, on Facebook praised McCain's frankness.

"An enemy died, salute him for honest enmity, for honest hatred, for refusal to reconcile. Others dissemble. He said what he thought."

 

[James Arryn]

18 minutes ago, DMC said:

Wow!  You found links I already knew!  Congratulations!  

None of those advocate what you were saying, as much as you would like them too.  Go back to school kid.

All of them ‘advocate’...or more precisely state...a majority of Americans supporting torture of suspects, at 3 different times, from 3 different sources. I rather suspected you’d know of them, but then in the deepest darkest pining of my anti-American soul, the worst thing I ever wish on Americans is self-knowledge. So, I suspected that you’d have...contextualized?...the majority of Americans supporting torture as something somehow not the majority of Americans supporting torture. Whether you’ll run down the ‘enhanced interrogation’ euphamism trail or the ‘ah, but only to the really bad guys...according to the torturers...’ line or some new and interesting path for Unexplaining A is only a matter of academic curiosity to me. 

Regardless, I made a halfway decent attempt at explaining how I think many Americans tend to let the camera get in the way of the picture they’re taking when it comes to their actions in other countries, and I must say I appreciate your rounding it out for me. 

And, interestingly, one of my most often used criticisms of American foreign policy as distinct from American self-mythology is ‘just another superpower.’ I’m not sure what comfort you find in that context, but you are welcome to it. I have no personal animosity towards you, and would leave your scholastic endeavours up to your own inclination. But then of course I’m not Am....just kidding.  

[DMC]

1 minute ago, James Arryn said:

All of them ‘backs’ a majority of Americans supporting torture of suspects, at 3 different times, from 3 different sources

Do they?  Prove it.  Because that's not what the question wording involves in any of the 3 polls, and you know it.

5 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I rather suspected you’d know of them, but then in the deepest darkest pining of my anti-American soul, the worst thing I ever wish on Americans is self-knowledge. So, I suspected that you’d have...contextualized?...the majority of Americans supporting torture as something somehow not the majority of Americans supporting torture. Whether you’ll run down the ‘enhanced interrogation’ euphamism trail or the ‘ah, but only to the really bad guys...according to the torturers...’ line or some new and interesting path for Unexplaining A is only a matter of academic curiosity to me.

...You done rambling?  Because this is a whole bunch of bullshit I have no idea how to respond - as an academic.  Revise your shit.

6 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Regardless, I made a halfway decent attempt at explaining how I think many Americans tend to let the camera get in the way of the picture they’re taking when it comes to their actions in other countries, and I must say I appreciate your rounding it out for me. 

Aye, you made a halfway decent attempt at shitting upon American voters, for the one thousandth time.  I'm sick of it - and I'm sick of your self-righteous acting as if Canada is innately better - even though I agree they are in multitudes of respects.  In other words, your bitching pisses me off, so imagine how it'd go for a regular dude that had to deal with your sanctimonious bullshit, whether they be black, brown, or white?

12 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

And, interestingly, one of my most often used criticisms of American foreign policy as distinct from American self-mythology is ‘just another superpower.’ I’m not sure what comfort you find in that context, but you are welcome to it. I have no personal animosity towards you, and would leave your scholastic endeavours up to your own inclination. But then of course I’m not Am....just kidding.  

I have no idea how to respond to this.

[Martell Spy]

So, he caved. The baby-in-chief had to be forced to do the right thing.

Trump Finally Praises McCain’s ‘Service’ as He Orders Flag Lowered

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-finally-praises-mccains-service-as-he-orders-flag-lowered?ref=home

Quote

President Trump has finally offered some kind words. “Despite our differences on policy and politics, I respect Senator John McCain’s service to our country,” Trump said in an official statement. Following criticism that the flag had returned to full-staffafter McCain’s death, Trump signed a proclamation to bring it to half-staff until McCain’s internment, as is tradition.

 

[James Arryn]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

Do they?  Prove it.  Because that's not what the question wording involves in any of the 3 polls, and you know it.

...You done rambling?  Because this is a whole bunch of bullshit I have no idea how to respond - as an academic.  Revise your shit.

Aye, you made a halfway decent attempt at shitting upon American voters, for the one thousandth time.  I'm sick of it - and I'm sick of your self-righteous acting as if Canada is innately better - even though I agree they are in multitudes of respects.  In other words, your bitching pisses me off, so imagine how it'd go for a regular dude that had to deal with your sanctimonious bullshit, whether they be black, brown, or white?

I have no idea how to respond to this.

Okay, just for basics. You vehemently decried my saying a majority of Americans supported torture. I linked you several polls showing just that, and you said they were known and didn’t say what the said. Forgive me, but I’m scratching my head trying to think of another approach. Let’s say that the ball rests in your court for showing why they don’t say what they demonstrably say. 

As for my imagination, believe me, an American responding to criticism of America as you are...VERY few non Americans need much imagination to envision that. But being a humanist, I concentrate my imagination on things like ‘Imagine if DNC got as angry about things like America torturing people as he does about my talking about it? Wow, imagine if like MOST Americans...if whatever colour, honestly not sure how you even brought that into it...got that pissed off about it? 

Imagine if, say, the general in charge of US air operations for several wars/police actions, who publicly and vehemently admitted US policy was to kill as many civilians as possible and overtly stated ‘there is no such thing as an innocent enemy civilian’...imagine if that matter of record made Americans less clear about the distinctions in how/why they have killed millions vs, how others have killed thousands? I’m not even asking for the war crime trial LeMay himself said he deserved, just a bit less of the toxic mix of arrogance and ignorance used so often to point out the somehow clear delineation of good vs. bad mass murder. That would be nice. 

So, unlike the person you were arguing with, I won’t say there are ‘no differences’, but that they are more in type than significance, and any inclusion of scale would not be on America's side. I’m saying you are finding comfort in bullshit distinctions which are created post-fact, to latterly justify what was done, as opposed to actually signify moral restrictions. I’m saying it behooves the man with the B-45 fighting the man without to say that only criminals kill with Molotov cocktails, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with morality. And the B-52 killing 100 people might almost...admittedly in some extraordinarily hate-inspired delusional rationale...be considered to have done as much or more wrong as the Molotov killing 5. 

[James Arryn]

Ugh...

https://deadspin.com/report-baylor-secretly-infiltrated-sexual-assault-surv-1828636656/amp?__twitter_impression=true

 

 

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Let’s say that the ball rests in your court for showing why they don’t say what they demonstrably say. 

That's generous of you, thanks!  And yes, they don't say what you want them to say.  If you want me to repeat:  your links and subsequent polls are bullshit, they do not say what @James Arryn wants them to say.

9 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

As for my imagination, believe me, an American responding to criticism of America as you are...VERY few non Americans need much imagination to envision that. But being a humanist, I concentrate my imagination on things like ‘Imagine if DNC got as angry about things like America torturing people as he does about my talking about it? Wow, imagine if like MOST Americans...if whatever colour, honestly not sure how you even brought that into it...got that pissed off about it? 

What is this hypothetical?  I'm I supposed to be "DNC?"  Because If I Was President...

 

14 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Imagine if, say, the general in charge of US air operations for several wars/police actions, who publicly and vehemently admitted US policy was to kill as many civilians as possible and overtly stated ‘there is no such thing as an innocent enemy civilian’...imagine if that matter of record made Americans less clear about the distinctions in how/why they have killed millions vs, how others have killed thousands? I’m not even asking for the war crime trial LeMay himself said he deserved, just a bit less of the toxic mix of arrogance and ignorance used so often to point out the somehow clear delineation of good vs. bad mass murder. That would be nice. 

Imagine all that, yeah.  Then imagine it was a Canadian giving the orders.

16 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I’m saying you are finding comfort in bullshit distinctions which are created post-fact, to latterly justify what was done, as opposed to actually signify moral restrictions. I’m saying it behooves the man with the B-45 fighting the man without to say that only criminals kill with Molotov cocktails, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with morality. And the B-52 killing 100 people might almost...admittedly in some extraordinarily hate-inspired delusional rationale...be considered to have done as much or more wrong as the Molotov killing 5. 

....Ok then.  I don't get your qualm here.  Seems like we're saying the same thing man.

[James Arryn]

Just now, Darth Richard II said:

How the fuck does that have anything to do with US politics?

Where would it normally be put? I didn’t think it was worth it’s own thread, and this is where we otherwise put these kinds of things. Your problem with it is that I criticized America earlier, period. 

Hey, DNC, remember when I called the whole anger-fueled-objectivity thing understood’? Yeah, this.

[James Arryn]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

That's generous of you, thanks!  And yes, they don't say what you want them to say.  If you want me to repeat:  your links and subsequent polls are bullshit, they do not say what @James Arryn wants them to say.

What is this hypothetical?  I'm I supposed to be "DNC?"  Because If I Was President...

 

Imagine all that, yeah.  Then imagine it was a Canadian giving the orders.

....Ok then.  I don't get your qualm here.  Seems like we're saying the same thing man.

Okay, the polls show a majority of Americans supporting torture. My contention was that a majority of Americans supported torture. Your objection was to my stating that ‘most Americans’ support torture. I honestly have no idea what you think you’re doing here. 

[Bonnot OG]

9 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

How the fuck does that have anything to do with US politics?

Devos is in charge of the Dept of education? She has already shown she doesn't care about sexual assault victims, only those accused of it. 

Too many institutions in the US cover this shit up. 

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Okay, the polls show a majority of Americans supporting torture. My contention was that a majority of Americans supported torture. Your objection was to my stating that ‘most Americans’ support torture. I honestly have no idea what you think you’re doing here. 

My contention is that's not what those polls show, but anyway...

8 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Hey, DNC, remember when I called the whole anger-fueled-objectivity thing understood’? Yeah, this.

I imagine this is for me.  And yes, I would echo for all to chill - even if you call me "DNC," which is..irksome.

[Week]

2 hours ago, DMC said:

What qualifications would you like?  Am I in favor of the US being a dominant military superpower?  No.  Is that an empirical fact?  Yes.  Please present me evidence that it isn't.

I was asking for your opinion of what wars/conflicts are legitimately obliged of a "superpower" 

eta -- not actually being a pesty dick about it -- despite my previous behavior.

[Darth Richard II]

I still don;t see how that story has any relation to politics, unless I'm missing something somewhere. Yeah, its terrible, yeah America is fucking terrible, I don;t disagree there really, but it just seems kind of random. I can post tons of stories about horrible shit happening at schools if you'd like and we can say its political cause we have a secretary of education who sucks.

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

 

I imagine this is for me.  And yes, I would echo for all to chill - even if you call me "DNC," which is..irksome.

I think that was aimed at me...maybe?

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Week said:

I was asking for your opinion of what wars/conflicts are legitimately obliged of a "superpower" 

Oh.  Fuck if I know, tough question.  That's a World Police question right?  I could direct you to some lit.  My own opinion?  When genocide is established - which it has been in numerous cases in which we wrong our hands.  But that's just my two cents, I could be entirely wrong. 

Edit - so my opinion would be kill the genocidal bastards.  With prejudice.  It's a pretty easy opinion, aye, but it's all I got.

7 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I think that was aimed at me...maybe?

It was?  If I aimed something at you you'd be  choking by now.

[Conflicting Thought]

Wow, suddenly some americans became very defensive, wonder why? 

[James Arryn]

35 minutes ago, DMC said:

My contention is that's not what those polls show, but anyway...

I imagine this is for me.  And yes, I would echo for all to chill - even if you call me "DNC," which is..irksome.

Sorry for the wrong letter, not intentional.

But...

 

Here’s the heading of the reuter’s article:

Quote

Exclusive: Most Americans support torture against terror suspects - Reuters/Ipsos poll

Here’s the para from another:

Quote

Following the Senate Intelligence Committee’s report on CIA interrogation practices in the period following the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, 51% of the public says they think the CIA methods were justified, compared with just 29% who say they were not justified; 20% do not express an opinion.

 

Finally, the third:

Quote

Data shows that popular opinion on the use of torture by the U.S. government has subtly shifted since 2004, when Pew Research Center began polling Americans on the subject. Pew asked whether torture used against suspected terrorists to gain important information is justified, finding a majority of respondents (53 percent) said torture could never or only rarely be justified. But over the next five years, public opinion slowly reversed.

By November 2009, a slight majority of Americans said for the first time that torture could sometimes be justified.

In Pew’s 2011 report — its most recent — 53 percent said the U.S. government’s use of torture against suspected terrorists to gain important information can often (19 percent) or sometimes (34 percent) be justified, marking a turnaround from 2004.[/quote]

The latter not only again supporting the point you say it outrageously untrue, but further demonstrating my contention that opinions changed towards favourable as evidence of fait accomplis became undeniable. But, regardless, all 3 show >50% of Americans supporting torture/saying torture is justified, and you somehow found this idea so offensive that you got angry at my mentioning it. Since then this weird dance. I dunno how, but I’m sure you’ll duck this too. Anyway, not improving my headache, so i’m not sure how many more dances I want today. 

Agree on the chilling thing, but to be clear about my implication, I wasn’t ever angry. People who get angry lose objectivity, and in my experience Americans get really angry when their foreign policy gets criticized by outsiders. As I think we saw. FWIW, the Baylor’s thing has nothing to do with this argument, and unlike foreign policy issues could just as easily happen in Canada or the UK or w/e. No connection except the reaction, and what I think that means.