Maesters pre-Andal invasion.

[AlaskanSandman]

Its pre-Andal Invasion.

There is a Maester in every Kingdom and every High Lords home.  Along with Maesters stationed along the wall at every castle.

There is no writing. Only runes.

Your job as a Maester is to study the world, it's higher mysteries, and it's histories. To also instruct and serve the lords of the realm

You communicate via ravens said to be able to talk. 

And there is a Weirwood in every Lords home to bear witness. Including one at the citidel. With the Largest being (At least south of the Wall) at Blackwoods home. Possibly all connected via a root system that appears to include a head of sorts located at the Wall.

How does this work and what is the full picture?

How do you record all that you have learned? The Weirwoods?

Are the Maesters skin changing the Ravens? or are all ravens controlled by the Greenseerer in the cave beyond the Wall?

Can the the Maesters access the Trees, including the one located AT the citidel? or all of those accessible solely by the Greenseerer beyond the Wall?

And lastly, given the above listed flow of information. Who do the Maesters answer to? The Blackwoods? The Greenseerer beyong the Wall? Or the Head located at the Black Gate?

[AlaskanSandman]

As an interesting aside. 

The Andals arrive in Old Town roughly 1400 years ago under Lord Dorian Hightower. His Great Grandson Lord Tristan Hightower constructs the Starry Sept 1300 years ago in 1000bc (no other counter dates given, only one in text).  

The Andals have been cutting down Weirwoods trees since their arrival (6000 and 4000 years ago are listed but based on above dates) 2000 years ago in the Vale. This would seem to cut down the ability of the Greenseerer at least to be able to monitor the realm.

On the flip side. Glass Candles arrive in Old Town 1300 years ago in 1000Bc around the same time as the Andals arrive. 4 of which are given to the Citadel that are known of. Of any other Glass Candles entering Westeros, no information is known. No Counter dates are given on the arrival of Glass candles either.

The Falcon Crown first worn by Artys Arryn is also said to have been forged 1300 years ago. No other dates are also given to counter this. 

So now, the Greenseerer has potentially lost his sight, while the Maesters have gained the ability to see via Glass Candles and the Andals. That is until the death of dragons. 

This seems almost empowering and freeing them of the Trees.  

The Andal arrival may be when Castle Black was built and the Lord Commander position moved away from the Black Gate. Which by this time has been buried beneath the Night Fort for sure in the Night Forts many reconstructions. Marking a possible shift in power at the wall too involving Weirwoods. 

Not sure if related, but it does involve the poisoning of at least one weirwood. The Bracken vs Blackwood feud started either 500 or 1000 years before the Andal invasion. Using above dates, that would mark there feud to 2500-3000 years ago. Unknown the extent of this poisoning but it seems to only have affected the Blackwood's tree, as the Tully tree seems fine.  The Brackens were the first to convert to the Faith, but unknown if attack on the tree happened before or after conversion. The feud is said to have began over usurpation, not the poisoning of the tree. 

It is interesting though that the Andals didn't' chop down the tree at the Citadel, meaning that the Greenseerer should still be able to watch them. On top of the Maesters having Glass Candles. 

Though the Maesters seem to have lost the ability to directly communicate with the Ravens. How ever that worked.

[rotting sea cow]

I always had the impression that the Maester order was born with a similar purpose of the Night Watch: Topreserve the knowledge necessary to fight the Others, should they ever come back.

As the Night Watch, they also forgot their original mission

 

[Rufus Snow]

3 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I always had the impression that the Maester order was born with a similar purpose of the Night Watch: Topreserve the knowledge necessary to fight the Others, should they ever come back.

As the Night Watch, they also forgot their original mission

 

Well, if we give credence to the legends, the Citadel and the NW will have been founded at around the same time: Brandon the Builder is alleged to have built the Wall. The first stone high tower was commissioned by Uthor of the High Tower, and it was said to have been built by Brandon the Builder or his son, another Brandon.

Prince Peremore was the son of Uthor, and the Citadel arose from 'Peremore's Pets', his assemblage of sages, wisemen and charlatans. So within a generation or so, both the NW and the maesters came into being.

That's IF we give credence to the legends, of course....

[Rufus Snow]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

How do you record all that you have learned? The Weirwoods?

Why not? "The trees remember", after all.

And this bit from the world book piqued my interest:

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown

How old is Oldtown, truly? Many a maester has pondered that question, but we simply do not know. The origins of the city are lost in the mists of time and clouded by legend. Some ignorant septons claim that the Seven themselves laid out its boundaries, other men that dragons once roosted on the Battle Isle until the first Hightower put an end to them. Many smallfolk believe the Hightower itself simply appeared one day. The full and true history of the founding of Oldtown will likely never be known.

We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions, make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any.

Yet mysteries remain. The stony island where the Hightower stands is known as Battle Isle even in our oldest records, but why? What battle was fought there? When? Between which lords, which kings, which races? Even the singers are largely silent on these matters.

So the maesters, who now tell us the children have died out, were once mingling freely with them. The maesters still claim to 'understand the speech of ravens', as Luwin told Bran once, though Leaf (iirc) later told Bran that men had lost that knowledge. Is anyone else getting the feeling that there is now bad blood between maesters and the children? And if so, why? Something to do with the coming of the Seven perhaps?

As for the second bolded section - which 'singers' does Yandel mean here - the troubadours, or the CotF???

[Ser Leftwich]

Here is a (relatively) ancient topic along the same lines. May give some more insights.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Its pre-Andal Invasion.

There is a Maester in every Kingdom and every High Lords home.  Along with Maesters stationed along the wall at every castle.

Says who? 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

3 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

 Is anyone else getting the feeling that there is now bad blood between maesters and the children? And if so, why?

Quote

"If I tell you, they may need to kill you too." Marywn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. "Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?" He spat. "The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons.

Grand Maester Conspiracy to rid the world of magic.  Science will kill god.

[Ser Leftwich]

3 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Why not? "The trees remember", after all.

And this bit from the world book piqued my interest:

So the maesters, who now tell us the children have died out, were once mingling freely with them. The maesters still claim to 'understand the speech of ravens', as Luwin told Bran once, though Leaf (iirc) later told Bran that men had lost that knowledge. Is anyone else getting the feeling that there is now bad blood between maesters and the children? And if so, why? Something to do with the coming of the Seven perhaps?

As for the second bolded section - which 'singers' does Yandel mean here - the troubadours, or the CotF???

Depending on the actual age of the Citadel and the actual timing of when the Andals arrived, the maesters may have trained elsewhere before and were only limited to the Citadel later.

The metaphor of being chained is more one of slavery than of service.

They may just not know any better about the Children. I have thought of it as the maesters have become the thralls of the Faith of the Seven/Andals/Hightowers.

[Rufus Snow]

56 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Depending on the actual age of the Citadel and the actual timing of when the Andals arrived, the maesters may have trained elsewhere before and were only limited to the Citadel later.

I was using the phrase 'the Citadel' as the collective noun for maesters, rather than as a direct reference to the building(s) in Oldtown. Prior to Peremeore they were individual 'academics' (for want of a better word), the concept of maestership arose after the Hightowers had gathered them together and we are told that Peremore lived around the same time the Wall went up, and prior to that there would have been nowhere else for 'maesters' as they were just random alchemists or sorcerors or priests or whatever.

56 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

The metaphor of being chained is more one of slavery than of service.

Yeah, and I'd love to know when that practice started. Are there any mentions of 'chained' maesters before the Andals, I wonder???

56 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

They may just not know any better about the Children. I have thought of it as the maesters have become the thralls of the Faith of the Seven/Andals/Hightowers.

It's clear they used to know about the Children, in fact they used to be close to them. Something tore them apart, and now the maesters have forgotten. Could well be the influence of the Faith of the Seven.

 

1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Quote

"If I tell you, they may need to kill you too." Marywn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. "Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?" He spat. "The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons.

Grand Maester Conspiracy to rid the world of magic.  Science will kill god.

Yes. Although Marwyn doesn't mention it directly, I'd guess he'd also include such things as the weirnet, warging and greenseers as being things 'the Citadel has no place for'. Will the maesters also turn against the Seven in turn?

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

34 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

 

Yes. Although Marwyn doesn't mention it directly, I'd guess he'd also include such things as the weirnet, warging and greenseers as being things 'the Citadel has no place for'. Will the maesters also turn against the Seven in turn?

 

I think that all the religions of Planetos are essentially death worship with superficial changes to suit the local tastes. 

Quote

The Stranger's face was the face of death. . . .

Thirty different gods stood along the walls, surrounded by their little lights. The Weeping Woman was the favorite of old women, Arya saw; rich men preferred the Lion of Night, poor men the Hooded Wayfarer. Soldiers lit candles to Bakkalon, the Pale Child, sailors to the Moon-Pale Maiden and the Merling King. The Stranger had his shrine as well, though hardly anyone ever came to him. Most of the time only a single candle stood flickering at his feet. The kindly man said it did not matter. "He has many faces, and many ears to hear."

That's the Stranger coming, Penny. The Black Goat, the Pale Child, Him of Many Faces, call him what you will. That's death."

In the Seven it is called the Stranger, Iron Born call it the Drowned God, the Red Priests call it R'hllor, it is the god of death--Him of Many Faces is the Weirwood network and the network inspires people to create different religions to ensure constant bloodshed and human sacrifice.  The Maesters and Bran will succeed in killing off the weirwoods and any real power the Faith of the Seven had will be gone, but the mythology may remain.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 8/27/2018 at 8:25 AM, Rufus Snow said:

Why not? "The trees remember", after all.

And this bit from the world book piqued my interest:

So the maesters, who now tell us the children have died out, were once mingling freely with them. The maesters still claim to 'understand the speech of ravens', as Luwin told Bran once, though Leaf (iirc) later told Bran that men had lost that knowledge. Is anyone else getting the feeling that there is now bad blood between maesters and the children? And if so, why? Something to do with the coming of the Seven perhaps?

As for the second bolded section - which 'singers' does Yandel mean here - the troubadours, or the CotF???

I do believe it. Just trying to better paint an image of the past to better ask questions. And great question at the end! There was definitely a huge shift in power and information. 
Im sure it's tied to the trees being cut down and poisoned but i can't help but think there is more to it also. May need to check my thread on time issue i can't ignore, specifically Dawn and the implication it was forged 2000 years ago, roughly when the Andals Invaded. Yet common thought is that Dawn is Lightbringer, and dates back to the Age of Heroes and forged for the Battle that ended the long night.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 8/27/2018 at 10:15 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Says who? 

General thought implied by ASOIAF and TWOIAF?

The Citidel dates back to the Age of Heroes and the sons of Uthor of the Hightowers. There is a Weirwood on the premise and a weirwood in every home. They are and have always been scholars. They control the ravens and information as far as we understand it. 

Though you bring up a good point and to play devils advocate.

Quote

In recent centuries, the maester’s of the Citadel have supplanted the once powerful Alchemists’ Guild through most of the Seven Kingdoms.

If that really is the case, what were the Maesters doing all these thousands of years? Who and what where the Alchemists in difference to what the Maesters were? Why the dispersal? Specifically with in recent centuries? Did they rise with the Targaryens? If so, then why did Old Town have so much power pre-valyrians, or better yet, pre-andals?

 

[Jaak]

52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

If that really is the case, what were the Maesters doing all these thousands of years? Who and what where the Alchemists in difference to what the Maesters were? Why the dispersal? Specifically with in recent centuries? Did they rise with the Targaryens? If so, then why did Old Town have so much power pre-valyrians, or better yet, pre-andals?

Old Town also was by far the largest city in Westeros.

But not the only city. Lannisport and Gulltown were fairly major cities of long time. And Duskendale and Maidenpool are attested with fortified outer towns.

[AlaskanSandman]

11 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Old Town also was by far the largest city in Westeros.

But not the only city. Lannisport and Gulltown were fairly major cities of long time. And Duskendale and Maidenpool are attested with fortified outer towns.

But no more than a city for trade. No religious hub pre-andals. No scholarly Maesters in every castle pre-Targaryens. How can we even know the Weirwoods on the grounds is any more important than any other then? The Blackwoods is bigger, there are three at Highgarden, and the Black Gate apparently has a head. So wheres the center of power for the weirwood network then?

Basically, where is the center of power in Westeros?

[Jaak]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

But no more than a city for trade. No religious hub pre-andals. No scholarly Maesters every pre-Targaryens. How can we even know the Weirwoods on the grounds is any more important than any other then? The Blackwoods is bigger, there are three at Highgarden, and the Black Gate apparently has a head. So wheres the center of power for the weirwood network then?

Basically, where is the center of power in Westeros?

Westeros was Seven Kingdoms, and more than Seven pre-Nymeria. Westeros had no center of power.

We have evidence that Citadel at Oldtown predated Andal Conquest - the pets of Peremore.

How did it get accepted outside Hightower domain?

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Jaak said:

Westeros was Seven Kingdoms, and more than Seven pre-Nymeria. Westeros had no center of power.

We have evidence that Citadel at Oldtown predated Andal Conquest - the pets of Peremore.

How did it get accepted outside Hightower domain?

Well, exactly. 

I guess i just always assumed that since their creation 8000 something years ago, that they've been as we've known them. Spread in every lords castle doing more or less as we've seen them doing. Thus giving House Hightower control and influence over the realm. Now im beginning to question Hightower influence. We never hear of any disruption when the Andals arrive, so i assumed the andals saw them as no threat. 

Pyromancers though having more influence before the Maesters and Maesters only gaining power in recent centuries leaves me a little confused. 

Did the Andals not mind the Pyromancers? Pyromancers seem like something the COTF woudn't be too fond of, but that the Targaryen's would. So why are the Maesters rising?

Now i've linked the Gardeners to being a dragon family in the Age of Heroes per comments about Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. So Gardeners having Varlyrian links, and Pyromancers all over Westeros seems odd. Specially given the decline of both upon the arrival of the Targaryen's. 

Could what the Maesters have been up to all those 8000 years be tied to House Hightower and necromancy claims and such? When did the Maesters become so about science? They have a Valyrian steel link after all. Did they only start studying the higher mysteries when the Targaryens arrive? or pre-Valyrians?

Also, if the Maesters have no power pre-Targaryens, why were glass candles brought to Old Town from Valyria 1300 years ago??? What's going on?

[Jaak]

25 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Now im beginning to question Hightower influence. We never hear of any disruption when the Andals arrive, so i assumed the andals saw them as no threat. 

Rather, we hear of amplification - with buildup of the position of High Septon.

25 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Pyromancers though having more influence before the Maesters and Maesters only gaining power in recent centuries leaves me a little confused. 

Did the Andals not mind the Pyromancers? Pyromancers seem like something the COTF woudn't be too fond of, but that the Targaryen's would. So why are the Maesters rising?

 

25 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Also, if the Maesters have no power pre-Targaryens, why were glass candles brought to Old Town from Valyria 1300 years ago??? What's going on?

Um?

Oldtown was by far the largest and richest city. And the only one attested as a homebase of a learned institution.

Oldtown Citadel could afford to buy a few glass candles, whether from legitimate sellers or as a stolen property - and wanted. Who else would?

We hear of lords who express distrust of maesters of Oldtown Citadel three centuries after conquest - ironmen who distrust maesters as greenlanders, and also Barbrey Dustin and Manderly... someone in North anyway. What we do not specifically hear of is any lord thinking maesters and citadel a generally good idea - and sponsoring an university of their own. Several might have afforded to. Like Gardeners of Highgarden, Lannisters of Casterly Rock and Lannisport, or Arryns of Vale. It is possible that pyromancers did specifically have a sponsor - but we have not heard that specifics. To the contrary, if pyromancers had a specific sponsor in Westeros, why would that house have given up the tradition?

It is possible that the numerous secrets of pyromancers that Hallyne mentions to exist besides wildfire include a few glass candles of theirs.

Who else?

Starry Sept of High Septon and Most Devout was an institution, and a rich one at that, but secular research was not so much their interest. So chances are that they did not bother buying glass candles when those were on the market.

[Rufus Snow]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Basically, where is the center of power in Westeros?

Depends how you want to define 'power', but my tingley-spidey sense keeps pointing towards the Isle of Faces

[Lollygag]

20 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Depends how you want to define 'power', but my tingley-spidey sense keeps pointing towards the Isle of Faces

I think LF may agree with you and he's all about power. It’s obvious why he wants Harrenhal politically, but it also comes with the Isle of Faces. Note that Tyrion watches LF’s face, brings up smallness, his sly COTF-y cat’s eyes….Big hints that it may be the Isle which tempts LF more. He accepts though he knows not to trust the offer, that he may be tossed aside like Janos Slynt.

ACOK Tyrion IV

It was interesting to watch his face. Lord Petyr's father had been the smallest of small lords, his grandfather a landless hedge knight; by birth, he held no more than a few stony acres on the windswept shore of the Fingers. Harrenhal was one of the richest plums in the Seven Kingdoms, its lands broad and rich and fertile, its great castle as formidable as any in the realm . . . and so large as to dwarf Riverrun, where Petyr Baelish had been fostered by House Tully, only to be brusquely expelled when he dared raise his sights to Lord Hoster's daughter.

Littlefinger took a moment to adjust the drape of his cape, but Tyrion had seen the flash of hunger in those sly cat's eyes. I have him, he knew. "Harrenhal is cursed," Lord Petyr said after a moment, trying to sound bored.

…

Littlefinger looked like a boy who had just taken a furtive bite from a honeycomb. He was trying to watch for bees, but the honey was so sweet. "Harrenhal and all its lands and incomes," he mused. "With a stroke, you'd make me one of the greatest lords in the realm. Not that I'm ungrateful, my lord, but—why?"

"You served my sister well in the matter of the succession."

"As did Janos Slynt. On whom this same castle of Harrenhal was quite recently bestowed—only to be snatched away when he was no longer of use."

Tyrion laughed. "You have me, my lord. What can I say? I need you to deliver the Lady Lysa. I did not need Janos Slynt." He gave a crooked shrug. "I'd sooner have you seated in Harrenhal than Renly seated on the Iron Throne. What could be plainer?"