Maesters pre-Andal invasion.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 8/31/2018 at 4:49 AM, Jaak said:

Rather, we hear of amplification - with buildup of the position of High Septon.

 

Um?

Oldtown was by far the largest and richest city. And the only one attested as a homebase of a learned institution.

Oldtown Citadel could afford to buy a few glass candles, whether from legitimate sellers or as a stolen property - and wanted. Who else would?

We hear of lords who express distrust of maesters of Oldtown Citadel three centuries after conquest - ironmen who distrust maesters as greenlanders, and also Barbrey Dustin and Manderly... someone in North anyway. What we do not specifically hear of is any lord thinking maesters and citadel a generally good idea - and sponsoring an university of their own. Several might have afforded to. Like Gardeners of Highgarden, Lannisters of Casterly Rock and Lannisport, or Arryns of Vale. It is possible that pyromancers did specifically have a sponsor - but we have not heard that specifics. To the contrary, if pyromancers had a specific sponsor in Westeros, why would that house have given up the tradition?

It is possible that the numerous secrets of pyromancers that Hallyne mentions to exist besides wildfire include a few glass candles of theirs.

Who else?

Starry Sept of High Septon and Most Devout was an institution, and a rich one at that, but secular research was not so much their interest. So chances are that they did not bother buying glass candles when those were on the market.

Yet the Maesters dont believe in magic, so why waste a ton of money on glass candles? And i would assume the Pyromancers would want them more, and probably be more likely to be able to use them.

Speaking of money though, who is funding Maesters at the Wall? Every lord has to pay for his own Maester, so how does the watch have money for Maesters? From what incomes? 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 8/31/2018 at 10:38 AM, Rufus Snow said:

Depends how you want to define 'power', but my tingley-spidey sense keeps pointing towards the Isle of Faces

With the Infamous Green Men. Yea hard to ignore them too, especially with the Order of the Greenhand being around. 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 8/31/2018 at 11:10 AM, Lollygag said:

I think LF may agree with you and he's all about power. It’s obvious why he wants Harrenhal politically, but it also comes with the Isle of Faces. Note that Tyrion watches LF’s face, brings up smallness, his sly COTF-y cat’s eyes….Big hints that it may be the Isle which tempts LF more. He accepts though he knows not to trust the offer, that he may be tossed aside like Janos Slynt.

 

ACOK Tyrion IV

 

It was interesting to watch his face. Lord Petyr's father had been the smallest of small lords, his grandfather a landless hedge knight; by birth, he held no more than a few stony acres on the windswept shore of the Fingers. Harrenhal was one of the richest plums in the Seven Kingdoms, its lands broad and rich and fertile, its great castle as formidable as any in the realm . . . and so large as to dwarf Riverrun, where Petyr Baelish had been fostered by House Tully, only to be brusquely expelled when he dared raise his sights to Lord Hoster's daughter.

 

Littlefinger took a moment to adjust the drape of his cape, but Tyrion had seen the flash of hunger in those sly cat's eyes. I have him, he knew. "Harrenhal is cursed," Lord Petyr said after a moment, trying to sound bored.

 

…

 

Littlefinger looked like a boy who had just taken a furtive bite from a honeycomb. He was trying to watch for bees, but the honey was so sweet. "Harrenhal and all its lands and incomes," he mused. "With a stroke, you'd make me one of the greatest lords in the realm. Not that I'm ungrateful, my lord, but—why?"

 

"You served my sister well in the matter of the succession."

 

"As did Janos Slynt. On whom this same castle of Harrenhal was quite recently bestowed—only to be snatched away when he was no longer of use."

 

Tyrion laughed. "You have me, my lord. What can I say? I need you to deliver the Lady Lysa. I did not need Janos Slynt." He gave a crooked shrug. "I'd sooner have you seated in Harrenhal than Renly seated on the Iron Throne. What could be plainer?"

 

 

 

Good point

[Lollygag]

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Good point

I forgot to add something. In AFFC, Sansa asks LF basically why he’s dinking around in the Vale when he can go to Harrenhal and be a big shot in his own right. Sansa shoots down his first answer. LF cycles through answers which Sansa rejects until LF is finally able to get Sansa off the subject. He has plans for Harrenhal beyond the obvious that he’s keeping very close to the chest.

 

[Rufus Snow]

40 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I forgot to add something. In AFFC, Sansa asks LF basically why he’s dinking around in the Vale when he can go to Harrenhal and be a big shot in his own right. Sansa shoots down his first answer. LF cycles through answers which Sansa rejects until LF is finally able to get Sansa off the subject. He has plans for Harrenhal beyond the obvious that he’s keeping very close to the chest.

Given that Sansa is a female-line descendent of House Whent there might well be something on LF's mind that he doesn't want to share with her.....

[Lollygag]

2 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Given that Sansa is a female-line descendent of House Whent there might well be something on LF's mind that he doesn't want to share with her.....

Yeah. That in itself might well tie back to forgotten magic.

[AlaskanSandman]

13 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Given that Sansa is a female-line descendent of House Whent there might well be something on LF's mind that he doesn't want to share with her.....

Yea i have a really hard time talking about one subject with out going total conspiracy theorist, as it seems one thing leads to another. 

Im currently working on something else, and it deals with the Wall, but hard to include the Citidel and House of Black and White, let alone the Isle of Faces and Dragons. Arrrrrgggg. I feel like a chihuahua going at an over sized bone, just going in circles around it, unsure of how to attack it and best work through it

[Rufus Snow]

9 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I feel like a chihuahua going at an over sized bone, just going in circles around it, unsure of how to attack it and best work through it

Thanks for that mental image, it will keep me amused for the rest of the evening.

Yep, we have strayed a bit from the original topic, but that's what you get with such a deeply layered work of fiction....

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Thanks for that mental image, it will keep me amused for the rest of the evening.

Yep, we have strayed a bit from the original topic, but that's what you get with such a deeply layered work of fiction....

Wasn't even complaining hahah more just saying cause we were and the God's Eye is such an interesting one  Just hard not to cross connect things hahah some people can't stand it tho hahah

 

[Jaak]

22 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yet the Maesters dont believe in magic, so why waste a ton of money on glass candles? And i would assume the Pyromancers would want them more, and probably be more likely to be able to use them.

The Maesters have a chain link for magic.  Several study magic even now.

Chances are that back when Valyrian sorcerors were prosperous and dangerous, there already were maesters who thought magic a sword without a hilt, disliked it and breathed a sigh of relief at Doom. But as magic was real and serious, they also made a real effort to study it to protect against it.

[AlaskanSandman]

29 minutes ago, Jaak said:

The Maesters have a chain link for magic.  Several study magic even now.

Chances are that back when Valyrian sorcerors were prosperous and dangerous, there already were maesters who thought magic a sword without a hilt, disliked it and breathed a sigh of relief at Doom. But as magic was real and serious, they also made a real effort to study it to protect against it.

Agreed, and i thought i mentioned their ring and rod. 
Point is though, is that they claim magic isn't real and that everything is science. 

So their actions are contradictory. Meaning either something changed, or theyre simply hiding it. 

And for experimentation sake, wouldn't one candle be enough?

Something doesn't add up and dismissing their actions as mere curiosities seems wrong to me. 

Whether its simply a lack of information on GRRMs part or an actual plot device, idk. Seems odd though to mention the pyromancers in the first book even, mention that they were supplanted by the Maesters, and yet give no details beyond that.

Where is the pyromancers base? Just that lil thing in K.L. at the bottom of the hill of the Great Sept? Doesn't seem very powerful. And K.L. is only 300 years old. So where were they before Aegon and K.L.? Why dont we hear about them at court till more recent years? 

How did the Maesters supplant them? Even with the Pryomancers powers failing after the Doom. Who pushed the Maesters on every one? Cause you pay for a Maester, they're not free. 
We never hear about Starks coming south in the History of Westeros other than Cregan, Eddard, and Robb. So who went North and convinced all of the North? 

Remember 3 Maesters were there with Aegon and Torhen.

Plus we are told magic died with the Dragons, not Valyria. So even if magic was less powerful, the Glass Candles still should work, homeboy out east should be making fire ladders, and dragons are definitely flying around Westeros.

Now, granted, we are told by Benjen and such that the Old Powers are waking again and that the Tree's have eyes again. But again, are the Maesters using Fire Magic or Old God's magic? Is there a difference?  If so, then it sounds like Fire Magic has been around while the Old Gods were sleeping, but now the fires burn low and or going out, and now they are waking again. 

[Jaak]

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

How did the Maesters supplant them? Even with the Pryomancers powers failing after the Doom. Who pushed the Maesters on every one? Cause you pay for a Maester, they're not free. 

We never hear about Starks coming south in the History of Westeros other than Cregan, Eddard, and Robb. So who went North and convinced all of the North? 

Remember 3 Maesters were there with Aegon and Torhen.

The bigger problem is how ironmen accepted maesters - and how Dorne did.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, Jaak said:

The bigger problem is how ironmen accepted maesters - and how Dorne did.

Right??? I really feel like we should be discussing and breaking down the Maesters more

[Rufus Snow]

Well, when it comes to dissecting maesters, I doubt well find any scalpel so sharp as Barbrey Dustin's tongue:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

As Maester Medrick went to one knee to whisper in Bolton's ear, Lady Dustin's mouth twisted in distaste. "If I were queen, the first thing I would do would be to kill all those grey rats. They scurry everywhere, living on the leavings of the lords, chittering to one another, whispering in the ears of their masters. But who are the masters and who are the servants, truly? Every great lord has his maester, every lesser lord aspires to one. If you do not have a maester, it is taken to mean that you are of little consequence. The grey rats read and write our letters, even for such lords as cannot read themselves, and who can say for a certainty that they are not twisting the words for their own ends? What good are they, I ask you?"

"They heal," said Theon. It seemed to be expected of him.

"They heal, yes. I never said they were not subtle. They tend to us when we are sick and injured, or distraught over the illness of a parent or a child. Whenever we are weakest and most vulnerable, there they are. Sometimes they heal us, and we are duly grateful. When they fail, they console us in our grief, and we are grateful for that as well. Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council. And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled.

 

[Jaak]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Right??? I really feel like we should be discussing and breaking down the Maesters more

Look at it this way:

Early on, Oldtown had two institutions rare elsewhere in Westeros.

A trade town, by far the largest. There were a few others, the second was Lannisport well behind.

And an university. The only other institution attested is pyromancers, and it is not clear where in Westeros they had headquarters or whether they were headquartered in Essos.

Hightower interests would have benefited if they were recognized as a relatively neutral party in Westerosi wars - both the interests of Oldtown trade and the interests of Citadel maesters.

We hear suspicions against Citadel neutrality from Wyman Manderly against Maester Theomore Lannister.

But before Aegon´s Conquest, with no Iron Throne and no game of thrones to play across Westeros, northerners would have had little to fear from a Lannister. Their neighbours and foes were Arryns, whoever held Riverlands, and ironmen.

Now, if the North could have found Citadel distant, impartial and trustworthy before Conquest, who would have had problems with that?

For one, ironmen. With their honour objections to paying gold price, Oldtown itself, Oldtown ships and ships going to Oldtown were obvious targets to reave.

For another, Dorne. Well, there was no Dorne before Nymeria. The northwest side of Red Mountains was split between Hightower, Gardener and Durrandon, of which Hightower and Gardener made an early alliance under the name of Reach. The southeast side was split between Dayne, Fowler and Yronwood.

And Hightower and Dayne would have had a common border - plenty of reasons to quarrel, and no long term peace like Hightower had on the Gardener side.

So how did Daynes come to accept maesters of Citadel as something else than Hightower spies?

[AlaskanSandman]

15 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Look at it this way:

Early on, Oldtown had two institutions rare elsewhere in Westeros.

A trade town, by far the largest. There were a few others, the second was Lannisport well behind.

And an university. The only other institution attested is pyromancers, and it is not clear where in Westeros they had headquarters or whether they were headquartered in Essos.

Hightower interests would have benefited if they were recognized as a relatively neutral party in Westerosi wars - both the interests of Oldtown trade and the interests of Citadel maesters.

We hear suspicions against Citadel neutrality from Wyman Manderly against Maester Theomore Lannister.

But before Aegon´s Conquest, with no Iron Throne and no game of thrones to play across Westeros, northerners would have had little to fear from a Lannister. Their neighbours and foes were Arryns, whoever held Riverlands, and ironmen.

Now, if the North could have found Citadel distant, impartial and trustworthy before Conquest, who would have had problems with that?

For one, ironmen. With their honour objections to paying gold price, Oldtown itself, Oldtown ships and ships going to Oldtown were obvious targets to reave.

For another, Dorne. Well, there was no Dorne before Nymeria. The northwest side of Red Mountains was split between Hightower, Gardener and Durrandon, of which Hightower and Gardener made an early alliance under the name of Reach. The southeast side was split between Dayne, Fowler and Yronwood.

And Hightower and Dayne would have had a common border - plenty of reasons to quarrel, and no long term peace like Hightower had on the Gardener side.

So how did Daynes come to accept maesters of Citadel as something else than Hightower spies?

Im gonna chew on that for a min haha 

but i put at you, why is there no Maesters mentioned before the Doom? None by name. Only mention of Maesters before the Doom is a vague reference about Maesters traveling to Valyria to gain answers to many of their questions. What kind of questions could the Valyrians answer?

Why is this the only activity of the maesters mentioned between their founding and Aegon's conquest?

[Jaak]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

but i put at you, why is there no Maesters mentioned before the Doom? None by name. Only mention of Maesters before the Doom is a vague reference about Maesters traveling to Valyria to gain answers to many of their questions. What kind of questions could the Valyrians answer?

Why is this the only activity of the maesters mentioned between their founding and Aegon's conquest?

How much activity of septons is mentioned?

There was NO High Septon in Andalos. There was no High Septon in Fingers, or Vale. The Andals of Andalos, Vale and Riverlands were used to a Pope in every parish, who acknowledged no higher authority on Earth.

Iron Islands repeatedly banished septons as such. But when and how did the Arryns acknowledge the Hightower chaplain as the High Septon? When did Daynes? Did Andalos, like by the time of Qarlon the Great, acknowledge the High Septon in Westeros?

[AlaskanSandman]

27 minutes ago, Jaak said:

How much activity of septons is mentioned?

There was NO High Septon in Andalos. There was no High Septon in Fingers, or Vale. The Andals of Andalos, Vale and Riverlands were used to a Pope in every parish, who acknowledged no higher authority on Earth.

Iron Islands repeatedly banished septons as such. But when and how did the Arryns acknowledge the Hightower chaplain as the High Septon? When did Daynes? Did Andalos, like by the time of Qarlon the Great, acknowledge the High Septon in Westeros?

Ive wondered this too haha didn't they become a unified culture back in Andalos? Why the new changes to their religion? Brought on by who? Hightowers?

Quite interestingly, there is dispute over the carvings found in the Vale. Some appearing to be a hammer and axe. Which makes me think of Balon Blackskin. Who fought with an axe and hammer and had black skin that no weapon could harm (valyrian steel any one?)

I did a thread along time ago linking weird links between the Iron Born and the Andals. 

Take Hugor's legend. He has the same amount of sons as there are iron islands

[Rufus Snow]

The more I think about it, there more questions arise about the past history of the maesters and the Citadel. There must have been a big shift following Aegon's conquest, because maesters are now sworn to serve 'the realm' as well as their posted castle. The Grand Maester is specifically elected to counsel the Iron Throne - was there a GM before? And if so, what duties did he have?

Was there a similar shift in emphasis when the Andals came? The Citadel's patron, House Hightower was amongst the first to adopt the Seven, and then went on to raise the Starry Sept. What struck me though, is that the oldest building in the entire Citadel is the castle on the Isle of Ravens, which used to be a pirate lair in the Age of Heroes. Seeing as the Citadel was already founded, and House Hightower had depended on trade back into the Dawn Age, how come a pirate lair was left unmolested so close to Oldtown? I can see why the Hightowers wanted the pirates gone, but why wait so long? Or had the pirates taken it off a pre-existing House - after all it was a proper castle with a weirwood tree and all. Was taking this castle the start of the maesters' relationship with ravens (and the weirnet???) or had they already established relations?

Hmmmm, too many questions.......

[Bobity.]

55 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

House Hightower was amongst the first to adopt the Seven

Willingly that is....."The Andals came late to the Reach" is how the Andals in the Reach chapter beings in world book, and it was based on long observation of the Andal bloody invasions of the Vale, Rivernlands and Storm Lands that the pragmatic choice of assimilation was adopted.

However, the pragmatic choice was not the first thought.  The Gardners had seeked COTF greenseers and woods witches, which are Old Gods types of council, very at odds with the traditional maester from the books.  However, if its the maesters role to deal with long distance written correspondence sent by raven, would it also make sense that they were also the same people who managed the ravens when the correspondence was verbal and not written?

Quote

"Do all the birds have singers in them?"
"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."
Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered, but when he asked Robb if it was true, his brother laughed and asked him if he believed in grumkins too. - A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The site of the Citadel is old, green sphinx statues and the Isle of Ravens long predate Andal arrival and I find the "Peremore's Pets" story suspiciously simplistic.  I suspect that the proto-maester order was vastly different and in tune with the Old Gods before the Andals, but that any reference has been purged to say in line with a new culture promoting the Seven.