Agree or disagree: Howland Reed's accidental presence at Harrenhal was the accidental cause of everything in the ASOIAF books

[Megorova]

Disagree. Completely. Rhaegar + Lyanna was destiny, fulfillment of agreement about union between Starks and Targaryens, the Pact of Ice & Fire, so it would have still happened, only under different circumstances. They would have still fallen in love, because Howland or no Howland, the two of them were still the same people. Also, in my opinion, Rhaegar has noticed Lyanna even before appearance of the mystery knight. He was singing a sad song, she cried, her brother laughted, and she poured wine over his head, which obviously caused a scene, and that's when Rhaegar noticed Lyanna for the first time. My guess, is that, maybe, the song was about them. Rhaegar often went to ruins of Summerhall, he slept there under stars, and composed his songs after those visits. So could be, that while at Summerhall, Rhaegar had prophetic dragondreams, and he saw visions about doomed love, and the destined child, that will be born from it. That sad song could have been about Rhaegar and Lyanna's love and death, and about birth of the promised Prince, Jon. Though at that time, Rhegar himself didn't realised, that those sad dreams, that he saw, were about his own future. Based on Daeron's dream, about Baelor's death, it seems, that dragondreams are not literal. So Rhaegar could have seen in a dream, his own fate, composed a song about it, and was completely unaware, that he's singing about his own death. Ironic 

Also there was still Varys with his plotting. He was still intending to cause civil war in Westeros, to weaken 7K, and make it easier for Blackfyres to invade. So if Rhaegar didn't kidnapped Lyanna, and didn't caused Starks and Baratheons to rebel, then there would have still happened some sort of major confrontation between Targaryens and some other great House. Under this conditions, it could have been likely, that Baratheons, and with them Ned Stark, were defending royal family, from whoever was their enemy in this scenario. So eventually Rhaegar and Lyanna would have still met. For example, Rhaegar wanted to hide his family, somewhere far and safe, so Ned proposed to bring them to Winterfell. Rhaegar decided to tag along, to bring them there, and to go further north, to visit maester Aemon at The Wall. So he went thru Winterfell once, when he was leaving there Elia and his children, and second time, when he was going back from Castle Black. So Lyanna and Rhaegar could have still eloped together. And she would have still died in childbirth. Because she was petite, and unable to give birth without medical assistance, and maesters at that time weren't experts on how to do cesarean section (the reason why Lyanna died in the original scenario). And Rhaegar was a threat to Varys and his plans to seize Iron Throne for Blackfyres, so Rhaegar was still going to die. So even if things would have happened differently, R+L=J would have still happened, and Jon's parents would have still died, and Jon ended up as Ned's bastard or ward, and still would have eventually went to The Wall.

Howland Reed is just one thread in the canvas, that created ASOIAF's current plot. Even if that one thread would have been removed, still the whole cloth wouldn't have fallen appart, just because of one missing element. There were bigger forces playing behind the scenes, for a long long time. Like Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar/Quaithe, that have orchestrated for the last 50 years, fulfillment of the promised Prince prophecy. The prophecy is 5 thousands years old. So Howland Reed, and his participation is very minor.

[JNR]

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Who else can the Knight of the Laughing Tree be? And do you really believe Rhaegar kidnapped her?

People have been arguing the first question for this entire millennium, and the second even longer than that.

[Makk]

On 8/29/2018 at 2:34 PM, Sire de Maletroit said:

Not necessarily.  The realm was in great shape in terms of economics.  Everything we know about that period indicate that the majority of the people were doing very well for themselves.  

I don't agree. His reign started relatively well but started to break down once he became jealous of Tywin and the failure of his wife to deliver any healthy children. He made policy decisions to spite Tywin rather than on merit and he started to have people killed because he believed they may have something to do with his children's deaths. He almost got himself killed at Duskendale and after that he became extremely paranoid and from that point on I think an upheaval was inevitable unless he died. He started executing various "traitors" with wildfire and after Tywin resigned, Aerys started to clash with Rhaeger, forcing the court to decide between the two. His appearance was horrible and when he emerged in public everyone saw it. He was convinced the Whent tourney was a gathering to plot his downfall.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 3:44 PM, The Map Guy said:

Not sure if this was ever brought up in the forums, but:

What if Howland Reed never accidentally attended the Tourney of Harrenhal?

1. Lyanna does not defend anyone from 3 squires
2. Lyanna does not become the Knight of the Laughing Tree
3. Rhaegar is not sent to look for this Knight that did not exist
4. Maybe Rhaegar still meets Lyanna at the Tourney, but without her actions as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Rhaegar doesn't fall in love with her
5. Rhaegar never crowns Lyanna the Queen of Love & Beauty
6. Rhaegar never kidnaps or runs off with Lyanna
7. Rhaegar successfully plans a rebellion against his father, either at the Tourney or at a 2nd meeting
8. Rhaegar executes the rebellion with limited bloodshed
9. Rhaegar is still alive
10. Lyanna is still alive
11. Robert never rebels and THOUSANDS do not die
12. Robert marries Lyanna
13. Brandon marries Catelyn
14. Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Rickon and Jon Snow were never born
15. Ned is married to ???
16. Lannisters are the Lannisters
17. Joffery, Myrcella, Tommen may still be born, but are not heirs to the throne
18. Targaryens are still in power in Westeros
19. Rhaegar is King
20. Dany & Viserys are not exiled to Essos
21. Dany never did all the landscaping she did over there
22. No dragons

Agree or disagree?

GRRM kinda takes a page from Tolkien, and puts the weigh of the world on the little guys...accidentally of course.

I disagree . If Howland Reed had gone strait to the island of the Faces , the only thing which would have changed Eddard would have died at the TOJ . If you subscribe to the theory that Lyanna was the KOLT and Rhaegar and eventually Aerys found out  . Nothing would have changed . Bullies are bullies ,and if the squires wasn't attacking Reed , they probably would have assaulted some stable boy or some serving girl and Lyanna would have come to his or her defense . If the Starks had stay away  Harrenhal or better yet left Lyanna  at Winterfell , things would have been different .

[Firefae]

Well, Rhaegar would've still looked for a new womb for his third head of the dragon, and hat Lyanna still heard Rhaegar sing and still (most likely) became infatuated with him. Even if Lyanna never dressed up as the KOTLT doesn't mean that Rhaegar and Lyanna still couldn't have met during the tourney ever and talked with each other. He still could've aproached her in other ways.

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, Firefae said:

Well, Rhaegar would've still looked for a new womb for his third head of the dragon, and hat Lyanna still heard Rhaegar sing and still (most likely) became infatuated with him. Even if Lyanna never dressed up as the KOTLT doesn't mean that Rhaegar and Lyanna still couldn't have met during the tourney ever and talked with each other. He still could've aproached her in other ways.

+1

Rhaegar was obsessed with prophesy well before the tourney.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

On 8/28/2018 at 7:03 PM, Makk said:

Aerys was still a nutcase and Varys was still whispering poison in his ear. It might have happened differently but the realm was still headed for a massive upheaval. 

What he said

[The Map Guy]

On 8/29/2018 at 1:05 PM, Megorova said:

Rhaegar + Lyanna was destiny,

For the story's sake, yes they were destined to love, die, spark a war, and give birth to Jon Snow.

 

5 hours ago, Firefae said:

Even if Lyanna never dressed up as the KOTLT doesn't mean that Rhaegar and Lyanna still couldn't have met during the tourney ever and talked with each other. He still could've aproached her in other ways

But I don't see an alternate scenario where Rhaegar falls in love with Lyanna just over her beauty or just over her conversations.

I do see the scenario which GRRM gave us: Rhaegar fall in love with the beautiful Lyanna after discovering she defended the crannogmen's honor by defeating three knights on horseback. 

Actions speak louder than words.

 

4 hours ago, Sigella said:

Well, Rhaegar would've still looked for a new womb for his third head of the dragon

If Rhaegar never met Lyanna, and wanted another baby with a different beautiful woman, the logical choice would of been Ashara Dayne IMO.

With Ashara, he would not piss off the Baratheons or the Starks to start a rebellion. He may piss off Arthur, but who knows, maybe Arthur would off been cool with it (Bro in laws!). Elia will still be heartbroken whether Rhaegar loves Lyanna or loves Ashara. And with Ashara being around anyways, he doesn't need to go cross-country for some action, they can do it secretly. With Ashara, Rhaegar can continue to conspire against his father, instead of dealing with a vendetta-kind-of-mood Robert if Rhaegar chose Lyanna instead.

 

19 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Bullies are bullies ,and if the squires wasn't attacking Reed , they probably would have assaulted some stable boy or some serving girl and Lyanna would have come to his or her defense .

Howland Reed is a short crannogman from the North. One of the bullies was a Frey, who disliked the "frogeaters."

1. The bullies would need to find someone easy to pick on: physically smaller and won't fight back

2. He also has to be Northern high-born to earn a place in the Starks' tent, to progress the story

In your case, yes there is a slim probability where that can happen if it wasn't Howland. Lyanna would defend the helpless. But to what point to dress up as the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

4 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

For the story's sake, yes they were destined to love, die, spark a war, and give birth to Jon Snow.

 

But I don't see an alternate scenario where Rhaegar falls in love with Lyanna just over her beauty or just over her conversations.

I do see the scenario which GRRM gave us: Rhaegar fall in love with the beautiful Lyanna after discovering she defended the crannogmen's honor by defeating three knights on horseback. 

Actions speak louder than words.

 

If Rhaegar never met Lyanna, and wanted another baby with a different beautiful woman, the logical choice would of been Ashara Dayne IMO.

With Ashara, he would not piss off the Baratheons or the Starks to start a rebellion. He may piss off Arthur, but who knows, maybe Arthur would off been cool with it (Bro in laws!). Elia will still be heartbroken whether Rhaegar loves Lyanna or loves Ashara. And with Ashara being around anyways, he doesn't need to go cross-country for some action, they can do it secretly. With Ashara, Rhaegar can continue to conspire against his father, instead of dealing with a vendetta-kind-of-mood Robert if Rhaegar chose Lyanna instead.

 

Howland Reed is a short crannogman from the North. One of the bullies was a Frey, who disliked the "frogeaters."

1. The bullies would need to find someone easy to pick on: physically smaller and won't fight back

2. He also has to be Northern high-born to earn a place in the Starks' tent, to progress the story

In your case, yes there is a slim probability where that can happen if it wasn't Howland. Lyanna would defend the helpless. But to what point to dress up as the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

1. To bully somebody it doesn't necessarily need to be bigger in size , you can also be larger in numbers. Like three on one .

2. That is not necessarily true either . Arya association with Mychal . It was said that there was always an extra place at table at Winerfell in which people was asked to join , whether that was a Stark thing or something Eddard learned is unknown . And if Lyanna wants Lyanna gets .

 

[Firefae]

9 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

 

 

But I don't see an alternate scenario where Rhaegar falls in love with Lyanna just over her beauty or just over her conversations.

I do see the scenario which GRRM gave us: Rhaegar fall in love with the beautiful Lyanna after discovering she defended the crannogmen's honor by defeating three knights on horseback. 

Actions speak louder than words.

 

 

Well you have to remember that Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy and was looking for a new womb anyway. Rhaegar wasn't just motivated by love. He was motivated by having a third head of the dragon.

Seeing Lyanna Stark of the North at the tourney, he might've saw that she would've been a perfect girl to birth the third head. Maybe discovering her being the KOTLT could've been the 'confirmation' of this. However, even if she never was the KOTLT he still could've approached her even without this 'confirmation'.

[The Map Guy]

5 hours ago, Firefae said:

However, even if she never was the KOTLT he still could've approached her even without this 'confirmation'

Well yes, but with this logic, Rhaegar can approach ANY available bachelorette during or after the Tourney.

For example: Ashara Dayne, Cersei Lannister, Lysa Tully...etc.

And I am sure there were a lot of other single beautiful ladies available during the Tourney.

Betrothed women like Catelyn Tully and Lyanna Stark should be off the table.

Rhaegar would need a very very special woman to make him dishonor his own wife...an available Ashara would make more sense than an unavailable, non-KoTL Lyanna Stark.

 

10 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

1. To bully somebody it doesn't necessarily need to be bigger in size , you can also be larger in numbers. Like three on one . 

 

If the bullies were destined to bully someone regardless if small crannogmen or not...I guess these unnamed squires were the "butterfly effect" of everything in ASOIAF huh? lol