Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

[redjako]

On 8/29/2018 at 10:26 PM, Darth Richard II said:

Didn't that inference come from a crazy fan though?

Nah, I'm thinking of The Great Ordeal, during Achamian/Mimara's journey, they are discussing his dreams, and arguing whether Kellhus "sent" Mimara. Eventually, Mimara thinks something along the lines of:

"She could see her stepfather, standing in Achamians room, seeing the scattering of maps and scratchings" or something of that nature.

Edit: found on Google Books, and I was wrong. This is Achamian thinking Kellhus came into his tower, Mimara is skeptical.

https://books.google.com/books?id=YAAuDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT11&lpg=PT11&dq=mimara+bakker+"prophet+of+the+past"&source=bl&ots=iPieWpc_1U&sig=Mpsh4NJnXCShI-Pg3oqmvKirAds&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjrpqLC95fdAhVdHDQIHR6EA7MQ6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=snippet&q=tower&f=false

 

 

[lokisnow]

On 8/30/2018 at 6:37 PM, IllusiveMan said:

Random aside, did anyone else feel like reading 'The False Sun' way in advance of 'The Unholy Consult' kind of spoil a. lot of that book's power?

I love TFS, and it was a great read. But upon reading TUC, I realized so much of Kellhus's talk with Mek/The Dunsult hinged on this big revelation of the Inverse Fire and what it means/does to a person. Whilst reading TUC, it was already stuff I knew so nothing really struck me as particularly gripping until the Ajokli reveal. I guess that scene would have felt a lot more revelatory if one hadn't read TFS beforehand...the entire inner nature of the Consult and their goals/methods would have been revealed. As it was, I remember feeling disappointed that I didn't get much more info than I'd already known in the grand finale. 

yes and no, After the Great Ordeal came out, I had a poorly articulated theory that the entirety of the False Sun and it's focus on the Inverse Fire was a gigantic meaningless red herring. 

the rationale? because there's no way Bakker would write a seven book series hinging on an idea--The Inverse Fire--articulated twice in the first six books and only elaborated in an online short story about 3% of his book audience would ever find and read.  there's no way any writer would be that actively bad, rather the false sun, is just the author playing around with theological "dead ends" in a really fun way for readers.

Well that was ass-backwards.

The point of comparison to one of the greatest writing talents of Bakker's generation would be horcruxes, which are carefully not mentioned until the penultimate novel (but have been present and significant in three of the preceding books), but that penultimate novel dedicates the entirety of the "A" plot thread to teasing out the concept, extrapolating the implications, beginning a quest centered around them and setting up the pathways to the finale.

It's sort of like about oh six or seven years ago, I lurked on some of the early "heresy" threads in the DWD forum here, and was utterly baffled that those early threads were more or less dedicated to the concept that the Night King was going to be the big-bad of the remainder of the ASOIAF book series, my thinking being, "really, a single legend mentioned once in the third book is going to be a crucial part of the narrative going forward? that doesn't fit." yeah... but that is more understandable because it would be more a result of gardening, vs Bakker or Rowling's much more involved everything-planned-out approach to writing.

[odium]

On 9/2/2018 at 3:44 PM, lokisnow said:

yes and no, After the Great Ordeal came out, I had a poorly articulated theory that the entirety of the False Sun and it's focus on the Inverse Fire was a gigantic meaningless red herring. 

the rationale? because there's no way Bakker would write a seven book series hinging on an idea--The Inverse Fire--articulated twice in the first six books and only elaborated in an online short story about 3% of his book audience would ever find and read.  there's no way any writer would be that actively bad, rather the false sun, is just the author playing around with theological "dead ends" in a really fun way for readers.

Well that was ass-backwards.

The point of comparison to one of the greatest writing talents of Bakker's generation would be horcruxes, which are carefully not mentioned until the penultimate novel (but have been present and significant in three of the preceding books), but that penultimate novel dedicates the entirety of the "A" plot thread to teasing out the concept, extrapolating the implications, beginning a quest centered around them and setting up the pathways to the finale.

It's sort of like about oh six or seven years ago, I lurked on some of the early "heresy" threads in the DWD forum here, and was utterly baffled that those early threads were more or less dedicated to the concept that the Night King was going to be the big-bad of the remainder of the ASOIAF book series, my thinking being, "really, a single legend mentioned once in the third book is going to be a crucial part of the narrative going forward? that doesn't fit." yeah... but that is more understandable because it would be more a result of gardening, vs Bakker or Rowling's much more involved everything-planned-out approach to writing.

As someone who read Harry Potter for the first time very recently, I would be interested in hearing you expound about why you feel Rowling constitutes one of the greatest writing talents of Bakker's generation. I thought there was a very well-crafted continuity in the books (and god the film series, which I'm now going through with my girlfriend, is fucking awful in comparison) but, honestly, I saw it more as Rowling planting seeds that would be easy to turn into plot hooks later on as opposed to necessarily planning everything in advance. I suppose we can't really know her exact thought process, but I keep coming back to these threads to read people's theories, and in the case of TSA they ended up being immensely more satisfying than the actual series, so...

On another note...

Just the other day, I was going through the original trilogy again in Spanish. I've taken a class in Ancient Greek since my last read through and was delighted to pick up some fun references, and while there are a few glaring errors in the Spanish translation, on the whole it's pretty solid. Though unfortunately it doesn't seem like the second series was ever translated... at least, I couldn't find anything about it.

I noticed something in Leweth's dialogue as well that has probably been mentioned already, but I thought it was worth bringing up. He mentions in his dialogue to Kellhus that he felt as if the forest beckoned him, when explaining his exile from Atrithau: I thought it might be the most explicit kernel of information to suggest Moenghus prepared the way for Kellhus' initial journey into the world. Anyone have any thoughts?

Also, I'm considering digging into the fantasy genre again. Is Malazan worth the ride? How does it compare to Prince of Nothing? What else is out there and worth eating up?

[.H.]

11 hours ago, odium said:

I noticed something in Leweth's dialogue as well that has probably been mentioned already, but I thought it was worth bringing up. He mentions in his dialogue to Kellhus that he felt as if the forest beckoned him, when explaining his exile from Atrithau: I thought it might be the most explicit kernel of information to suggest Moenghus prepared the way for Kellhus' initial journey into the world. Anyone have any thoughts?

It is definitely something we have discussed before.  There really isn't anything textual to point directly one way or another, but it is a plausible reading that Moe had something to do with conditioning Kellhus' path.  Another option, of course, is that something else (Ajokli, Anagkë, et. al.) was responsible for Kellhus' "favored" journey into the Three Seas.

If you want Moe the Elder's TTT to be the "prime mover" of events in Darkness, it is a eminently plausible that he, knowing the Shortest Path he took and so Kellhus would also take, would place some safeguards to assure that Kellhus would walk completely on Conditioned Ground in reaching him.  It's a little hard  to believe that Leweth has been out there for something like 30 years though, at that point, being "in his middle years" would have made his relationship with his wife either something from a young age, or very short.  That's not out of the realm of plausibility, but also not anything that lends credence either.

If you take a wider look, post-TAE and the more "direct" involvement of the Hundred, it isn't all that implausible that some external force was actually Conditioning Kellhus' journey.  The likely culprit here would be Ajokli, since he has most to gain from Kellhus actually making it to where he "needs" to go.

[odium]

Moenghus could have sent Leweth at some indeterminate point. Honestly though I guess there is no way of being sure if it's a plot hole or what, but Kellhus' miraculous Sranc-free journey from Ishual is pretty convenient

[Kalbear]

17 hours ago, odium said:

Also, I'm considering digging into the fantasy genre again. Is Malazan worth the ride? How does it compare to Prince of Nothing? What else is out there and worth eating up?

Malazan is either incredible or fairly horrible depending on what you like about fantasy. If you like high fantasy with a LOT of very cool worldbuilding, Malazan will probably be awesome for you; if you are more character and plot-driven, probably not. Abercrombie is also quite good, and has significantly better characters. 

[Werthead]

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Also, I'm considering digging into the fantasy genre again. Is Malazan worth the ride? How does it compare to Prince of Nothing? What else is out there and worth eating up?

 

Malazan is better than PoN/AE in several key areas, being far less grimdark-for-the-sake of it and certainly doing far, far better by its female characters. It also does tonal variation better, it's certainly much funnier and it doesn't go as hardcore mega-grimdark (although it gets pretty grim on occasion). It's also philosophical - as much, if not more, than Bakker - but Erikson addresses different concepts, ideas and themes in each book, so it doesn't get quite as repetitive.

It's certainly much less focused than PoN/AE and the change of continents/cast of characters/magic system every couple of books may get wearying, but it's also structurally stronger. Each book has its own primary storyline resolved in that volume with only subplots and characters recurring between books. One slight issue with that is that the cumulative weight of all of these subplots gets bit crazy later on, when it feels like there's 400 subplots going on at once which might not have much to do with the primary narrative of the novel at hand and minor characters show up to do important shit and you can't remember if they're new character or if they had a bit-part five novels earlier.

The worldbuilding also isn't as good. Everyone says how great Malazan's worldbuilding is, and it's certainly original and intriguing, but it's also very broad and fairly shallow. The immense depth of history present in Earwa, that gets revisited and fleshed out book by book, doesn't really happen in Malazan. You can write a 150-page book on the history of the Earwa continent (I know, because I did), but you'd struggle to do that with all eight of the continents in the Malazan world, even with considerably more books available.

Overall, I'd say that Malazan is a superior series, but also a rather different one (PoN/AE sits roughly halfway between ASoIaF and Malazan on the crazy-ass stakes, I'd say; Malazan is epic fantasy turned to 11).

 

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Abercrombie is also quite good, and has significantly better characters. 

 

 

I'm not sure I'd fully agree. No character in Abercrombie comes close to the tragic power of a character like Coltaine or Itkovian, and I'd rank Karsa - for all his objectionableness - as a more interesting character than the Bloody Nine. Abercrombie was definitely much more successful in making the reader fully aware of the Bloody Nine's nature by the end of the first six books though, whilst some Erikson fans definitely have a blind spot in acknowledging their favourite barbarian character is actually a really nasty piece of work.

I'm also not convinced that Abercrombie has a female character as complex and as well-realised as Felisin.

Both Erikson and Abercrombie are united in having scenes designed specifically to mock Terry Goodkind though, which is a definite plus for both (Bakker has't produced one, as yet, although he is also aware of the lunacy of the Yeard).

[odium]

Thanks to both of you. Are the Lord Foul's Bane books any good? And I realize historical fantasy is a quite different flavor, but I also saw the books but I Maurice Druon flouted by Martin himself as the historical Game of Thrones, curious to know if anyone has read and enjoyed them.

I recall seeing your posts on the history of Earwa at some point, Wertz! And also I think I've noticed you posting over at RPS now and again. The Internet is a small place after all.

[Kalbear]

I was saying that Abercrombie's characters are better than Bakker's - though I also think they're much better than Malazan with about two exceptions total. 

The Thomas Covenant series are groundbreaking in some ways - they're the first real deconstruction of the fantasy storyline before it was cool - but they're also quite horrible in their own, special ways, and Donaldson really likes making things obtuse at times. I would try the first one, and if it doesn't grab you I'd recommend staying away from it. You'll know quickly if it's your cup or not. 

I really liked Abraham's Dagger and Coin series and his 4 seasons quadrilogy, but others think he's a bit shallow. The books are short, though, so they're easy to get through. Dagger and Coin in particular has one of the best villains I've read in a long time, and Shadow in Summer has one of the more unique settings in a while.

[Tears of Lys]

@Kalbear:  I don't think you give Abraham his due when it comes to the "Seasons" series (just saying they're short and easy to get through.)  While the Dagger and Coin series was certainly enjoyable, the Seasons series was exquisite in the delicacy of its composition.  I feel it really stands alone (in my estimation, at least) when it comes to great works of Art.    

Just an observation.  That series really sticks with me. 

 

[Tears of Lys]

On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 5:35 PM, Werthead said:

 You can write a 150-page book on the history of the Earwa continent (I know, because I did),

 

Whut?!

[Darth Richard II]

The answer is the same it always is, go read all of Robin Hobb. 

Abraham is top notch too. 

[Rhom]

14 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

The answer is the same it always is, go read all of Robin Hobb. 

Abraham is top notch too. 

I am currently nearing completion of the Farseer trilogy.

[Werthead]

14 hours ago, Tears of Lys said:

Whut?!

Just so.

 

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The answer is the same it always is, go read all of Robin Hobb. 

 

Closing in on finishing The Golden Fool, and thus at the exact halfway point of her over-arcing series, and I think it's safe to say that if you like slow-burn, low-key, introspective, very character-focused, decidedly non-epic fantasy (or rather, a fantasy where all the epic stuff happens off-screen), Hobb is definitely the writer to go for. If you're into widescreen epic fantasy with a mix of introspection, action, magic, small scenes, big stuff, she's not quite writing in that style.

[Tears of Lys]

9 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Just so.

 

Closing in on finishing The Golden Fool, and thus at the exact halfway point of her over-arcing series, and I think it's safe to say that if you like slow-burn, low-key, introspective, very character-focused, decidedly non-epic fantasy (or rather, a fantasy where all the epic stuff happens off-screen), Hobb is definitely the writer to go for. If you're into widescreen epic fantasy with a mix of introspection, action, magic, small scenes, big stuff, she's not quite writing in that style.

Too damn cool!  Are you selling it? Do you mind if I download it to peruse at my leisure? 

I've always thought the test of the worth of a fantasy world is how inspirational it is to other writers/artists/etc. 

Although, I haven't seen anyone put images and background to Abraham's Seasons series, and I put that up on a pretty high pedestal. 

[Rhom]

15 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Just so.

 

Pretty damn cool... had not seen that before Wert.  And I'm betting I'd enjoy it more than most of TUC.   

[lokisnow]

Haven’t read Hobb in a looong time, but I recall the live ship series being significantly better than the assassin series, and the two are independent of each other at the point of those two series.

[Sci-2]

On 8/29/2018 at 6:29 PM, .H. said:

I think your post highlights just how little we know (understand?) about what the Eärwan soul really is.  On the one hand, it seems fairly obvious that the soul is one's connection to the Outside, if nothing else.  The Outside, of course, is the plemora, then the question would be: is the soul of the plemora or of the manifest world?

Hmmm. We know Bakker was greatly influenced by Blood Meridian, where the Judge considers the Good within the kid to be of alien origin. I would dare to suggest that Outside is of the psyche but not the pneuma - see this quote from Geoff Klock's X-men, Emerson, Gnosticism:

"It ia Gnosticism's conception of the self that is most interesting and radical: Gnosticism makes a distinction between the soul (in Greek the psyche) and the spirit (the pneuma). The psyche is primarily what we traditionally associate with the mental self, most exhaustively treated by Freud in his psychoanalysis: appetites and passions certainly, but also our love and our tastes, and much - perhaps all - of our personality. Emerson, an implicit Gnostic, referred to this as the "adhesive self."[4] Christianity, implicitly or explicitly, conceives of the body as a prison for the soul; Gnosticism conceives of BOTH the body and the soul (again, the personality, appetites and desires) as a prison for the spirit, the Gnostic spark, the part of God."

I'm thinking of how Mimara sees past the "false foil" of the Abyss to the drowsy compassion of the God. It also seems this connection the foundational power of the One is what allows her to banish the Wight. Of course there she is maintaining the "Gate", the boundary between the Outside/Abyss and the dreamed world rather than banishing in the way a Catholic exorcist invokes Christ/God. This however could make a certain sense, as anarcane ground itself is where the God dreams most lucidly.

So by enforcing the Gate Mimara is in fact summoning the dreaming mind of God which is, in fact, the world of Earwa in its more naturalistic aspects. (Naturalist being different than our conception for our world, since Earwa is an enchanted world and at the least Naturalism usually refers to a disenchanted world in context of our reality..."enchanted" I guess would be the interweaving of sentient purpose and physics/chem/bio)

This is also suggests animals may naturally be of the One, given they have no souls to damn whereas humans - really all sentient entities with reflective consciousness - only exist due to the lapses in the God/One's own consciousness. Individuals, then, might be that aspect of the One that is lead into the illusion of a persona...the closest analogous reality I can think of is the "voices" in our heads offering praise, criticism. shame, etc.

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Given the No-God's function though and whatever the Great Cycle of Souls is, then I don't think the soul can be of the manifest world.  It must be pleromatic, then, and wholly so.  Or at least, in nature at least.  But here we return to the issue at hand, none the closer to an actual answer.  Just what is the soul? 

 

The soul seems to be microcosmic, perhaps even fractal/holographic, portions of the One. This would distinguish them from the Hundred who are, from what I gathered out of Bakker's AMA, subconscious processes smeared across the Eternal/Now joint of reality more than fully complete conscious entities.

I believe it was Eskeles who compared the Hundred to shattered fragments and Kellhus to a perfect rendition of the One writ small? We now know that was incorrect, given Kellhus was no savior, but the model works to distinguish the Hundred from an actual soul. (This leaves the issue of Ciphrang who seem to be individuals within the Now though they exist in the supposedly Eternal place of the Ouside?)

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And if souls cycle, what makes one yours and the other mine?  Or am I misunderstanding what cycle means?  I surely am, since if it was a 1:1 cycle in and out, the population of Eärwa could never grow. 

Well souls could come and go from other worlds, but I agree with your latter assement:

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No, I think what is meant is the the soul itself is "locked into place."  That is, it cannot undergo the cycle of it's own transformation.  That is (presumably) it's "attachment" to life in the manifest world (at Birth), it's "development" (during life), and it's subsequent "return" to the plemora (the Outside).  (This actually makes sense, how the Wright of the Mountain stays fixed to the spot, how souls on the planes of Mangedda.)

I also suspect the cycle refers to the creation of souls through birth and then the movement of that soul into the afterlife. But if souls are pinched off bits of Outside then it would be a cycle...a harvest in some sense if the Hundred are responsible for this cycle. Perhaps there is nothing natural at all about birth/death of ensouled beings, and the One truly intended every conscious being to play out P-Zombie characters in Its dream?

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It's unclear what this "development" really is though.  In some ways, the soul must be a ledger of sorts.  In others, a manner of identity preservation.  As Koringhus (seems) to relate to us, part of the problem might be the clinging to identity.  That we are in the trouble of damnation because we deny the true interval between ourselves and the world (or the plemora, I'm not sure).  Or is it that we acknowledge the interval, in imagining (or acknowledging) the interval demanded by our perceived (constructed?) identity.

 

Yeah, that's how I see it, that one must escape identity/individuality to be free from damnation. Or at the least one must see one's "self" as an emanation of the One rather than an individual with a subjective-boundary. After all what is an "individual" but this boundary, this being that feels the its feeling only extending to the outer surface of its skin?

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So, I guess to answer your question, along the line of Koringhus, the "false" identity we acknowledge is what is damned.  Which we cling to and won't let go.  And so costs eternity and the price of the now.

Or something, man, I don't know...

 

Agreed on this...but then the challenge is that Kellhus could get past that "here-ness" but this didn't save him from damnation...or perhaps his own fears kicked in while on the Circumfix. The figure beneath the World Tree was waiting for him to give in, the Trickster at the Crossroads offering a deal to save the "self" of Kellhus. Ajokli seems like a cross between Satan, Papa Legba, and Mara the Tempter to me.

Could Kellhus have found the One? Or is Dunyain conditioning problematic in the sense that it can, in theory, lead to awareness of the One but given the millennia of breeding for survival in the material world one is predisposed toward preservation and thus damnation?
 

[kuenjato]

On 9/7/2018 at 8:46 PM, Triskjavikson said:

I've only read the first Hobb book and thought it was just OK but have certainly seen much love on the board which has always made me think about jumping back in.

 

It's terribly overrated, and I wouldn't compare it to Bakker at all -- sort of like going from a burlap sack to a wet diaper.

[.H.]

On 9/8/2018 at 3:48 PM, Sci-2 said:

Hmmm. We know Bakker was greatly influenced by Blood Meridian, where the Judge considers the Good within the kid to be of alien origin. I would dare to suggest that Outside is of the psyche but not the pneuma - see this quote from Geoff Klock's X-men, Emerson, Gnosticism:

Hmm, in fact, I round-aboutly came across the same sort of idea from a completely different place in the last week.  No such thing as coincidence though, must mean something.

On 9/8/2018 at 3:48 PM, Sci-2 said:

I'm thinking of how Mimara sees past the "false foil" of the Abyss to the drowsy compassion of the God. It also seems this connection the foundational power of the One is what allows her to banish the Wight. Of course there she is maintaining the "Gate", the boundary between the Outside/Abyss and the dreamed world rather than banishing in the way a Catholic exorcist invokes Christ/God. This however could make a certain sense, as anarcane ground itself is where the God dreams most lucidly.

So by enforcing the Gate Mimara is in fact summoning the dreaming mind of God which is, in fact, the world of Earwa in its more naturalistic aspects. (Naturalist being different than our conception for our world, since Earwa is an enchanted world and at the least Naturalism usually refers to a disenchanted world in context of our reality..."enchanted" I guess would be the interweaving of sentient purpose and physics/chem/bio)

This is also suggests animals may naturally be of the One, given they have no souls to damn whereas humans - really all sentient entities with reflective consciousness - only exist due to the lapses in the God/One's own consciousness. Individuals, then, might be that aspect of the One that is lead into the illusion of a persona...the closest analogous reality I can think of is the "voices" in our heads offering praise, criticism. shame, etc.

Hmm, could it be that Mimara's "power" to banish that Wight is similar to the sort of "thuamaturgy" we see Kellhus-Ajokli wield versus the Mutilated?  I.e. not sorcery (i.e. of the psyche, read: soul) but of divine providence (i.e. of the pneuma, read: spirit).  That is to say, I somewhat disagree that Mimara's power is "setting the world" to a more "naturalistic" state.  Because, as you say, Eärwa's "natural state" is that of enchantment.  So, the Wight's position is eminently natural.  Which, of course it is, because it is.

What Mimara seems to be doing, rather, is waking the God.  That is, "fixing" the frame, such that the world is as it should be, by Mimara's judgement.  This might well be the role of the Judging Eye.  That is, the same role taken on by by God-as-Christ, post-Job, in rendering the perspective of God from the mortal vantage.  (This could easily be bias on my part, as I have at other times personally noted that there is a plausible parallel of sorts between Mimara and a Christ-figure.)

Your last point though is interesting though, since if the soul is not pleromantic, or of the Outside, but of the psyche (i.e. Logos, if not The Logos) than it is more confusing how the soul is enduring, when the mind (that is, the physical brain) is not.  The only way I think I can square that, off the top of my head, is to say that the Spirit (i.e. the divine spark in each individual, gained at birth) is imprinted by the Soul (i.e. the psyche) in an indelible, or at least semi-permanent manner.  So, it may not be your soul passing on, but rather your Spirit so imprinted by your soul.  Your Spirit, of course, being your share on the One.  Your soul's delusion, of course, is that it is both the Spirit itself and separate from the One.  Both are incorrect.

However, I think I need to preface the use of One though.  One is not the Unity.  As Koringhus puts it, it would be the Zero-as-One.  For brevity's sake, I shall continue to just use One to denote this, even though the actual unity concept must be Zero-as-One.

On 9/8/2018 at 3:48 PM, Sci-2 said:

The soul seems to be microcosmic, perhaps even fractal/holographic, portions of the One. This would distinguish them from the Hundred who are, from what I gathered out of Bakker's AMA, subconscious processes smeared across the Eternal/Now joint of reality more than fully complete conscious entities.

I believe it was Eskeles who compared the Hundred to shattered fragments and Kellhus to a perfect rendition of the One writ small? We now know that was incorrect, given Kellhus was no savior, but the model works to distinguish the Hundred from an actual soul. (This leaves the issue of Ciphrang who seem to be individuals within the Now though they exist in the supposedly Eternal place of the Ouside?)

Well, if we follow our earlier line of thinking, it isn't the Soul than, rather it is the Spirit.  The Spirit is the division of the One, the Soul is the manifest world's interface to the Spirit.  That is, the Body does not work directly on the Spirit, rather it is Mind, the Psyche, that so interfaces the Pleromantic (Outside).

In this way, Ciphrang are Spirits who's Body/Soul so marred them as to be completely incapable of assimilating back into the One.  Or, at least, so marred as to be incapable of existing within the Pleroma (Outside) without extreme discomfort.  So, a Ciphrang could be a thing so temperamentally opposed to the Unity concept (that is, so distinctly marred as to maintain identity) that it cannot and never will be able to rejoin the One, or join oblivion.  It's a forever torper, hungering when nothing can feed.

On 9/8/2018 at 3:48 PM, Sci-2 said:

I also suspect the cycle refers to the creation of souls through birth and then the movement of that soul into the afterlife. But if souls are pinched off bits of Outside then it would be a cycle...a harvest in some sense if the Hundred are responsible for this cycle. Perhaps there is nothing natural at all about birth/death of ensouled beings, and the One truly intended every conscious being to play out P-Zombie characters in Its dream?

Well, I think you have relapsed a bit.  Souled being simply flavoring for Spirits.  It is Spirits that the 100 harvest, gaining greater share of One.  Souls simply give "taste" to the Spirit.  In that vein:

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But if there’s no hiding from Him, why doesn’t He simply kill me?

Because He plays you!

But how could a God play at anything?

Because that is what he feeds upon ‘ere you die, the grain of your experience.

Fool! I asked how, not why!

Who can say how the Gods do what they do?

Maybe because they can’t!

And when the ground shakes, when mountains explode, or the seas rise up?

Pfah. The Gods do these things? Or do they simply know they will happen before they happen?

Perhaps there’s no difference.

This is little Kel's internal discussing with his Voice.

So the 100, divisions of the Zero-as-One, desire divisions of Spirit, to demark their existence as One-not-Zero.  Damnation, as Kellhus puts it, "is their harvest" because damnation, the Soul's selfish tainting of the Spirit as to exclude it from Zero-as-One, i.e. as Indentity, helps to define the Hundred.

This means that Koringhus is even more correct.  The way out of the trap of Eärwa is regressive.  Or at least, regressive of the Self.

The Logos is another trap, so perhaps this is why Kellhus (mostly) abandons it?

On 9/8/2018 at 3:48 PM, Sci-2 said:

Yeah, that's how I see it, that one must escape identity/individuality to be free from damnation. Or at the least one must see one's "self" as an emanation of the One rather than an individual with a subjective-boundary. After all what is an "individual" but this boundary, this being that feels the its feeling only extending to the outer surface of its skin?

Yes, yes, I believe now we are getting somewhere.  I'd say it a bit differently though, that one must realize that these is no Self, rather is it a delusion of perspective.

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Souls can no more see the origins of their thought than they can see the backs of their heads or the insides of their entrails. And since souls cannot differentiate what they cannot see, there is a peculiar sense in which the soul cannot self-differentiate. So it is always, in a peculiar sense, the same time when they think, the same place where they think, and the same individual who does the thinking. Like tipping a spiral on its side until only a circle can be seen, the passage of moments always remains now, the carnival of spaces always sojourns here, and the succession of people always becomes me. The truth is, if the soul could apprehenditself the way it apprehended the world—if it could apprehend its origins—it would see that there is no now, there is no here, and there is no me. In other words, it would realize that just as there is no circle, there is no soul.

—MEMGOWA, CELESTIAL APHORISMS

 

On 9/8/2018 at 3:48 PM, Sci-2 said:

Agreed on this...but then the challenge is that Kellhus could get past that "here-ness" but this didn't save him from damnation...or perhaps his own fears kicked in while on the Circumfix. The figure beneath the World Tree was waiting for him to give in, the Trickster at the Crossroads offering a deal to save the "self" of Kellhus. Ajokli seems like a cross between Satan, Papa Legba, and Mara the Tempter to me.

Could Kellhus have found the One? Or is Dunyain conditioning problematic in the sense that it can, in theory, lead to awareness of the One but given the millennia of breeding for survival in the material world one is predisposed toward preservation and thus damnation?

It's hard to say, because if you read TTT Chapter 10, where my above quote comes from, Kellhus seems to "get" this.  The question than is, what of it?  Koringhus seems to have been able to "get it."  But only through the lens of Mimara, through her forgiveness, and (the) Eye.  I think Kellhus could have found that, but he doesn't seem to have.  In other words, it would seem that Kellhus knew the fundamental nature of the meta-physics, but still (like the Consult) demanded the world to change rather him change to it.  In other words, I do not buy that Kellhus ever gave up his Self, or allowed his Soul to die to his Spirit.

No, in the way Bakker likens it, I'd say it makes sense that Kellhus is "dead but not done."  He is at minimum a Ciphrang, a Spirit too marred by his Soul to be devoured.  But considering his power, perhaps even more.  If the Fanim are right, that the Hundred are basically Ciphrang, than Kellhus might well be a near god-like Ciphrang.