Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

[noshowjones]

4 hours ago, Hello World said:

I think I've already forgotten large chunks of this book. When was this? The only time I remember second person off the top of my head was the Kellhus in hell scene.

 

It happens in the last one or two Moe Jr POVs. I'm sorry, I don't have page numbers. For the life of me, I con't figure out why Bakker does it. It seems like he just got tired of writing in third person.

2 hours ago, .H. said:

Right, I don't dispute this is a fact of what Bakker does.  However, he does mention in that line of conversation, that it is narrative meaning he is out to frustrate.  Perhaps wrongly, but what I take that to mean is that indeed the narrative is there to frustrate, because we inherently want to have closure.  It's similar (I think, I am not a literary scholar by any means) to what Cormac McCarthy often does.  The books have less of an narrative end, so much as they just stop.  Granted, I've only read a handful of his books, but in each one, I don't recall the narrative coming to a definitive conclusion, instead, it's more like the "tape ran out" and the book is over.

The only problem with this is that literary fiction can be satisfying even when there is no closure with the plot, because literary fiction is usually character-driven. Bakker is not writing character-driven literary fiction, he's writing plot-driven genre fiction, and when a writer leaves out the end of a plot-driven narrative, it's pretty unsatisfying for MOST people. Some, a few on this board and most over at TSA, think that is awesome. Most readership will feel cheated. I don't think Bakker actually intended to do it. I believe he either a) felt like he could do the same thing as McCarthy (he can't) or  b) didn't actually realize how little he answered and his "frustrate the meaning" bit is a post-mortem excuse for his failings as an author.

2 hours ago, .H. said:

My point being, both have seen glimpses of the Outside, but I don't think either has actually visited.  They've suffered revelation of parts, but they don't apprehend the whole.  Indeed, consider what the Nonman envoy asks Kellhus:

He could be feigning surprise, but I don't see why.  No, I think it more likely he is legitimately surprised that Kellhus could actually visit the Outside, not just see it, and actually return with his soul.

I recently just re-listened to this section. As readers, I think we can infer from that same Nonman that it isn't totally out of the realm of the possible for people to visit the outside. Kellhus says something to the effect of, you're worried a ciphrang has taken my place and that my soul weeps in the outside. The Nonman says, such substitutions have happened before. 

Bakker is generally imprecise with his writing, but I think we can infer that men and Nonmen have visited the outside before and that some of them have not returned. Rather a ciphrang has taken control of their mortal body. If it was something that happened to everyone who went to the outside, I think the Nonman would have said, such is always the case with those who try to walk the outside.    

 

edited for clarity

[Kalbear]

Yeah, the nonman specifically looks into his eyes and is all 'are you Kellhus' and Kellhus as Ajokli is all YUUUUUPPP. But the implication is that it's rare - but it certainly has happened before, and there are enough witness accounts of the Outside that him having a head on a pole doesn't seem to imply to me that it's unique. 

I wish someone could quote the Moe Sr. quote from TTT about his view of the Outside - something about how in 20 years he's visited and he never saw anything that contradicted the Logos, saw a bunch of random things fighting, etc.

[.H.]

12 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yeah, the nonman specifically looks into his eyes and is all 'are you Kellhus' and Kellhus as Ajokli is all YUUUUUPPP. But the implication is that it's rare - but it certainly has happened before, and there are enough witness accounts of the Outside that him having a head on a pole doesn't seem to imply to me that it's unique. 

I wish someone could quote the Moe Sr. quote from TTT about his view of the Outside - something about how in 20 years he's visited and he never saw anything that contradicted the Logos, saw a bunch of random things fighting, etc.

Ask and ye shalt receive:

Quote

“The Dûnyain,” Moënghus continued, “think the world closed, that the mundane is all there is, and in this they are most certainly wrong. This world isopen, and our souls stand astride its bounds. But what lies Outside, Kellhus, is no more than a fractured and distorted reflection of what lies within. I have searched, for nearly the length of your entire life, and I have found nothing that contradicts the Principle.

“Men cannot see this because of their native incapacities. They attend only to what confirms their fears and their desires, and what contradicts they either dismiss or overlook. They are bent upon affirmation. The priests crow over this or that incident, while they pass over all others in silence. I have watched, my son, for years I have counted, and the world shows no favour. It is perfectly indifferent to the tantrums of men.

“The God sleeps … It has ever been thus. Only by striving for the Absolute may we awaken Him. Meaning. Purpose. These words name not something given … no, they name our task.”

Well, I might have been slightly off.  Thing is, I don't doubt that anyone else in history was able to visit the Outside and make it back.  But I don't see evidence that Meppa, Moe the Elder, or Pstama have actually been to the Outside, only that they have seen, or have been given visions of it.  What I think is the biggest difference that the head on a pole gives Kellhus is that he can visit there, kick some Ciphrang ass and come back absolutely no worse for the wear.  Or at least, not much worse (we don't know if it makes the Ajokli influence greater, less, or makes no difference at all).  What the head on a pole also implies is that it could be Kellhus' plan, which gets spouted out of the mouth of the (some sort of) Ajokli/Kellhus amalgamation, that there seems to actually been a plan to take over Hell itself.  Because it wouldn't be too hard to rule Hell if nothing there can really hurt him.  Because why would Ajokli want to conquer Hell?  Doesn't he already rule it?

Many characters in the series get visions of the Outside, some can even interface it via the Daimos.  Kellhus though seem to be able to actually travel there, which is not unprecidented, but also seems to be very little worse for the wear.  It also seems that this ability yields him the Decapitatants, which we don't understand the full importance of, but are at least seemingly loyal agents of his.  The head is not just being able to see.  It's not just being able to walk.  It's being able to do both and not suffer (many) consequences.

[Kalbear]

59 minutes ago, .H. said:

Because it wouldn't be too hard to rule Hell if nothing there can really hurt him.  Because why would Ajokli want to conquer Hell?  Doesn't he already rule it?

No. He's just one of a hundred, and one that isn't nearly as popular as Gilgaol or Yatwer. He's one of the most despised gods, and he doesn't have nearly the reach others do. There's a reason he doesn't summon the White Luck or doesn't normally manifest - because he simply doesn't have the worship in souls. 

But if he can hijack the granary, he becomes paramount. 

59 minutes ago, .H. said:

Many characters in the series get visions of the Outside, some can even interface it via the Daimos.  Kellhus though seem to be able to actually travel there, which is not unprecidented, but also seems to be very little worse for the wear.  It also seems that this ability yields him the Decapitatants, which we don't understand the full importance of, but are at least seemingly loyal agents of his.  The head is not just being able to see.  It's not just being able to walk.  It's being able to do both and not suffer (many) consequences.

Well, arguably Kellhus suffers some big-ass consequences, even if he doesn't realize it. 

Also, I'd be cautious about saying that Kellhus kicks ass in the Outside. We don't know where the decapitants came from, and we have no direct evidence of that any more than we have direct evidence of Meppa/Psatma going to the Outside directly. 

[Darth Richard II]

11 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Despite people telling you over and over again that the ending not being 'happy' isn't the issue, you still think this.  This is like a broken record.  Or just keep going around ignoring everything people write and repeating this nonsense about happy endings.  

 

 

Obviously, I hate completely non happy endings and tragedy, which is why I have every Shakespeare work and one of my favorite series of all time is Cornwell's Warlord Chronicles.

[.H.]

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

No. He's just one of a hundred, and one that isn't nearly as popular as Gilgaol or Yatwer. He's one of the most despised gods, and he doesn't have nearly the reach others do. There's a reason he doesn't summon the White Luck or doesn't normally manifest - because he simply doesn't have the worship in souls. 

But if he can hijack the granary, he becomes paramount. 

Well, that is plausible.  So, if it was all Ajokli's plan, then the fact is that Kellhus had no plan.  Or at least, no real plan of his own.  Which is also plausible.  That still doesn't really prove that the head on a pole was not somewhat useful in whatever the hell "mastering the Daimos," as Kellhus says, means.  Indeed, if it was Ajokli all the way down, why did Kellhus even bother going to the Outside before he was fully possessed?  Ajokli must have already had more power there than Kellhus ever could.  It would seem that something was there for Kellhus himself and I think at least part of that is the Decapitants.  We know what one of them was for, but not the second, and only have a cryptic glossary entry that implies Kellhus was trying to swap his own head.

20 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Well, arguably Kellhus suffers some big-ass consequences, even if he doesn't realize it. 

Also, I'd be cautious about saying that Kellhus kicks ass in the Outside. We don't know where the decapitants came from, and we have no direct evidence of that any more than we have direct evidence of Meppa/Psatma going to the Outside directly. 

Well, yes, that was hyperbolic on my part, but:

Quote

There is a head … and it cannot be moved.

So he seizes the lake and the thousand babes and the void and the massing-descending Sons and the lamentations-that-are-honey, and he rips them about the pole, transforms here into here, this-place-inside-where-you-sitnow, where he has always hidden, always watched, where Other Sons, recline, drinking from bowls that are skies, savouring the moaning broth of the Countless, bloating for the sake of bloat, slaking hungers like chasms, pits that eternity had rendered Holy …

It certainly seems implied that he is holding his own, "rip[ping] them about the pole."  Sure, you might actually be right, that Kellhus pays a great spiritual price for his Outside adventures.  However, I think Kellhus had already opened himself to Ajokli much earlier and I don't think his forays into the Daimos, via the head on a pole, made it any worse.  In fact, I think the head on a pole was his method to Daimos mastery, his Daimotic mastery a way to the Decapitants, and the Decapitants may be how he seems to have avoided being snared by Ajokli at the end, despite dying.

[Sci-2]

7 hours ago, .H. said:

This is to say that I do acknowledge that Bakker did add things to the books without them being narratively meaningful in the grand sense.  But I still think that most things are meaningful in the thematic sense.

I think you are talking about this:

Indeed, Meppa insinuates that he has seen.  But he has seen, on the one hand part of the truth, yet not seen the bigger picture, that the Solitary God simply does not exist.  This is why he gets no where with Pstama, because it's largely irrelevant if Yatwer is a "demon" or not.  Meppa imagines his small insight is a view to The Truth, that the Solitary God is the ultimate power.  Pstama explains his insight is actually meaningless, because it's just a label on the Hundred that doesn't really do anything, and his Truth is not even a truth at all (because the Solitary God is not manifest).  I don't know that Psatma understands why the Solitary God can't exist, but that's kind of beside the point.

Yeah you found the quote - thanks!

Sorry, but could you elaborate on what you mean that the Solitary God doesn't exist? Do you mean the fact the God is Shattered? I figured the God is both One and Many, so Shattered and Whole largely b/c I think the God's Unity and Shattering occur outside of the Inside's timeline if not outside Time altogether (though, of course, the question arises what it means to occur outside of Time).

Also I think the God has to exist in some sense to hold the Real of the Inside to the regularities the Progenitors need for their transhumanism and the Consult needs for its No-God. Though I suppose once you have the particle Monads inscribed with the needed Harmony to make up Matter/Energy and act in accordance with Forces the Inside might be good to go even if the God is broken...

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, .H. said:

Indeed, if it was Ajokli all the way down, why did Kellhus even bother going to the Outside before he was fully possessed?  Ajokli must have already had more power there than Kellhus ever could.  It would seem that something was there for Kellhus himself and I think at least part of that is the Decapitants.  We know what one of them was for, but not the second, and only have a cryptic glossary entry that implies Kellhus was trying to swap his own head.

 

I don't think it was Ajokli all the way down, exactly - there are certainly places where Kellhus still has some thoughts of his own, I would suspect. Ajokli's influence is so subtle that Kellhus doesn't realize it until the very, very end. Before this he blames it on the darkness in his own soul. So yeah, Ajokli wants Kellhus to come to the Outside to gain more deliberate mastery over him so he can feign being in more direct control, but he also wants Kellhus to want to. Why does Kellhus do it? To gain information, mastery over, to gain some advantage in the coming fight, whatever. 

To my knowledge we don't know when he did the Head on a Pole thing, when that happened relative to the heads, when he switched the heads between his and the other, etc. Heck, it might be a literal thing - he might have literally put one of the decapitant's heads on a pole to watch him, and since he is part of it and it is part of him, he is literally seeing himself through the other's eyes. 

We simply don't know, which was my point - that there is far too much unknown there to make any definitive statements about what that is. 

2 minutes ago, .H. said:

 

It certainly seems implied that he is holding his own, "rip[ping] them about the pole."  Sure, you might actually be right, that Kellhus pays a great spiritual price for his Outside adventures.  However, I think Kellhus had already opened himself to Ajokli much earlier and I don't think his forays into the Daimos, via the head on a pole, made it any worse.  In fact, I think the head on a pole was his method to Daimos mastery, his Daimotic mastery a way to the Decapitants, and the Decapitants may be how he seems to have avoided being snared by Ajokli at the end, despite dying.

My impression is that doing that sort of thing wasn't actually that impressive, and they didn't care that much about it. It didn't result in him gaining any souls, or them losing any souls, and they didn't rage against him at the time. 

It would have been really interesting to me if the Nonman that meets him actually realized that Kellhus was possessed even when he did not. 

2 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Yeah you found the quote - thanks!

Sorry, but could you elaborate on what you mean that the Solitary God doesn't exist? Do you mean the fact the God is Shattered? I figured the God is both One and Many, so Shattered and Whole largely b/c I think the God's Unity and Shattering occur outside of the Inside's timeline if not outside Time altogether (though, of course, the question arises what it means to occur outside of Time).

Also I think the God has to exist in some sense to hold the Real of the Inside to the regularities the Progenitors need for their transhumanism and the Consult needs for its No-God. Though I suppose once you have the particle Monads inscribed with the needed Harmony to make up Matter/Energy and act in accordance with Forces the Inside might be good to go even if the God is broken...

My take is that Koringhus is most right, and the solitary god doesn't exist as a being, it exists as a place. There is no immanent God, there is no transcendent God. God exists as an unsentient force where all souls reside simultaneously and are part of God. It is the Judgment without any conscience or malice.

To put it the other way of the client/server architecture, God isn't a superuser. God is the code that runs the game. 

[.H.]

28 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Yeah you found the quote - thanks!

Sorry, but could you elaborate on what you mean that the Solitary God doesn't exist? Do you mean the fact the God is Shattered? I figured the God is both One and Many, so Shattered and Whole largely b/c I think the God's Unity and Shattering occur outside of the Inside's timeline if not outside Time altogether (though, of course, the question arises what it means to occur outside of Time).

Also I think the God has to exist in some sense to hold the Real of the Inside to the regularities the Progenitors need for their transhumanism and the Consult needs for its No-God. Though I suppose once you have the particle Monads inscribed with the needed Harmony to make up Matter/Energy and act in accordance with Forces the Inside might be good to go even if the God is broken...

The God-of-gods does exist, but is Shattered.  The Solitary God is posited (it would seem to me) to be the Unity.  That is, the One God.  That is, the God-of-gods, if not Shattered.  But that is both false in theory (one cannot unite the Infinite pieces, because they are broken infinitely) and also false in practice, there is no entity that is the Solitary God in the Outside.  Basically, the Solitary God is the mistaken human presumption that Kellhus is dispelling in Proyas, that the infinite God that is soemwhat like a human.  In reality, the Infinite God is humpty-dumpty and there is so putting it back together, because the true Unity concept is only possible through Zero, not One.  In fact, this points to The God-of-god's "genesis" if there could even be one, since there both must be and cannot be, in the nonexistence of everything, when there was essentially a singularity where everything both exists and does not at the same time.

The God-of-gods does still exist, but not as an entity.  It exists as the Cubit, the Unity of Zero, and the Unity of Itself-as-all-selves-not-added-together-but-subtracted.

Or, there is the possibility that I have lost even the little thing I call the semblance of my sanity.

21 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I don't think it was Ajokli all the way down, exactly - there are certainly places where Kellhus still has some thoughts of his own, I would suspect. Ajokli's influence is so subtle that Kellhus doesn't realize it until the very, very end. Before this he blames it on the darkness in his own soul. So yeah, Ajokli wants Kellhus to come to the Outside to gain more deliberate mastery over him so he can feign being in more direct control, but he also wants Kellhus to want to. Why does Kellhus do it? To gain information, mastery over, to gain some advantage in the coming fight, whatever. 

To my knowledge we don't know when he did the Head on a Pole thing, when that happened relative to the heads, when he switched the heads between his and the other, etc. Heck, it might be a literal thing - he might have literally put one of the decapitant's heads on a pole to watch him, and since he is part of it and it is part of him, he is literally seeing himself through the other's eyes. 

We simply don't know, which was my point - that there is far too much unknown there to make any definitive statements about what that is.

Well, yes, in this same sense, we actually know nothing about the series.  I'm willing to take leaps and make assumptions based on what we are given, knowing full well that I am making subjective calls on subjective criteria.  We don't know for certain much of anything, but I am willing to take swings at things even if they are inherently unprovable to be able to hit anything.  Why?  I don't know, probably because there is something mentally wrong with me?

21 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

My take is that Koringhus is most right, and the solitary god doesn't exist as a being, it exists as a place. There is no immanent God, there is no transcendent God. God exists as an unsentient force where all souls reside simultaneously and are part of God. It is the Judgment without any conscience or malice.

To put it the other way of the client/server architecture, God isn't a superuser. God is the code that runs the game.

Right, The God, the infinite God, the God-of-gods, is the game, because it is all pieces of the game, including the metagame itself.

[Sci-2]

16 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I don't think it was Ajokli all the way down, exactly - there are certainly places where Kellhus still has some thoughts of his own, I would suspect. Ajokli's influence is so subtle that Kellhus doesn't realize it until the very, very end. Before this he blames it on the darkness in his own soul. So yeah, Ajokli wants Kellhus to come to the Outside to gain more deliberate mastery over him so he can feign being in more direct control, but he also wants Kellhus to want to. Why does Kellhus do it? To gain information, mastery over, to gain some advantage in the coming fight, whatever. 

To my knowledge we don't know when he did the Head on a Pole thing, when that happened relative to the heads, when he switched the heads between his and the other, etc. Heck, it might be a literal thing - he might have literally put one of the decapitant's heads on a pole to watch him, and since he is part of it and it is part of him, he is literally seeing himself through the other's eyes. 

We simply don't know, which was my point - that there is far too much unknown there to make any definitive statements about what that is. 

Hmmm...this reminds me of something from the Glossary:

Akamis recounts a tale told him by a Shigeki drover, Pim, pressed into Imperial service working the Aspect-Emperor’s baggage train. According to Akamis, Pim told of a trip across Gedea that took the Aspect-Emperor and his travel court across the legendary Plains of Mengedda. In the deep of the night, near the end of his watch, Pim found Anasûrimbor Kellhus alone and raving on the haunted plain, alternately removing his head and replacing it with one of the Decapitants. Akamis is rightly dismissive of the man’s lurid account, though the Schoolman readily admits being frightened by his sincerity. “He had the look of a Sempic simpleton to him, one who had left his brain with the fish to dry.”

Quote

My impression is that doing that sort of thing wasn't actually that impressive, and they didn't care that much about it. It didn't result in him gaining any souls, or them losing any souls, and they didn't rage against him at the time. 

It would have been really interesting to me if the Nonman that meets him actually realized that Kellhus was possessed even when he did not. 

I was thinking about this last night - was the Nonmen fooled b/c Ajokli was hidden too deep? Or did he know Kellhus was tainted but decided vengeance against the Inchoroi would be accomplished by playing along with the Trickster's mummery?

Quote

 

My take is that Koringhus is most right, and the solitary god doesn't exist as a being, it exists as a place. There is no immanent God, there is no transcendent God. God exists as an unsentient force where all souls reside simultaneously and are part of God. It is the Judgment without any conscience or malice.

To put it the other way of the client/server architecture, God isn't a superuser. God is the code that runs the game. 

Yeah, I think there's some truth to that. The God is like the Hindu Brahman or the Grecian Perfect, Boundless Sphere. It sustains creation but doesn't intercede...though some Mimara's inner dialogue suggests the God does have some plan for the Real...

[.H.]

3 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Yeah, I think there's some truth to that. The God is like the Hindu Brahman or the Grecian Perfect, Boundless Sphere. It sustains creation but doesn't intercede...though some Mimara's inner dialogue suggests the God does have some plan for the Real...

Hmm, I'm not trying to doubt you, but if you could find a quote for that, I'd be interested.  Because it's sort of a pet idea of mine that the Cubit does not care at all, it's only Mimara's own personal judgement that matters.  For example, it seems that the Eye couldn't care any less about Koringhus.  It's Mimara that forgives him though.

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, .H. said:

 

Well, yes, in this same sense, we actually know nothing about the series.  I'm willing to take leaps and make assumptions based on what we are given, knowing full well that I am making subjective calls on subjective criteria.  We don't know for certain much of anything, but I am willing to take swings at things even if they are inherently unprovable to be able to hit anything.  Why?  I don't know, probably because there is something mentally wrong with me?

Okay buddy, time to chill a bit. I don't want to get into how knowable ANYTHING is, but I think some things are less knowable than others, and the parable of the head on a pole is, IMO, one of the least knowable of the entire book given that its inspiration was not the metaphysics or other aspects of the story, but a simple weird image that existed in our world that Bakker wants to write about.

3 minutes ago, .H. said:

Right, The God, the infinite God, the God-of-gods, is the game, because it is all pieces of the game, including the metagame itself.

What I like about this analogy is that it also gives a real ability for the parts of the game to actually evolve past the code itself in unanticipated ways - between clever uses of game mechanics or actual exploits in code issues which were unforeseen. 

 

4 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Hmmm...this reminds me of something from the Glossary:

Akamis recounts a tale told him by a Shigeki drover, Pim, pressed into Imperial service working the Aspect-Emperor’s baggage train. According to Akamis, Pim told of a trip across Gedea that took the Aspect-Emperor and his travel court across the legendary Plains of Mengedda. In the deep of the night, near the end of his watch, Pim found Anasûrimbor Kellhus alone and raving on the haunted plain, alternately removing his head and replacing it with one of the Decapitants. Akamis is rightly dismissive of the man’s lurid account, though the Schoolman readily admits being frightened by his sincerity. “He had the look of a Sempic simpleton to him, one who had left his brain with the fish to dry.”

 

Yeah, that's what I was referencing. I know that there's some good evidence for the Head on a Pole being Kellhus' actual body, but we also have a weird eyewitness account of Kellhus literally swapping heads out on a place that is closer to the Outside than most - a perfect place for a visit to the Outside, I'd think. 

Of course, we also have Bakker saying that he put in dead ends into the glossary deliberately, so who knows?

4 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

I was thinking about this last night - was the Nonmen fooled b/c Ajokli was hidden too deep? Or did he know Kellhus was tainted but decided vengeance against the Inchoroi would be accomplished by playing along with the Trickster's mummery?

Both would have been interesting to explore. 

4 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Yeah, I think there's some truth to that. The God is like the Hindu Brahman or the Grecian Perfect, Boundless Sphere. It sustains creation but doesn't intercede...though some Mimara's inner dialogue suggests the God does have some plan for the Real...

I don't think that God has a plan, only an ability to state what is good and what is bad. This is one of the reasons Mimara and Kellhus are necessary - both have the sentience to utilize the tools given. Only God can judge something - but only Mimara can forgive. 

From a coding perspective, Mimara is super holy because she produces offspring which is even holier, so naturally her score is SUPER high.  That doesn't indicate a plan; it simply indicates a score. Why can she do all these things? Because she's got a super high level based on the code. Why does she have that level? As far as I can tell, that was largely arbitrary, or perhaps it's because Esmi also levelled up, or whatever. But it's not a plan, because a plan requires causative values, and code doesn't have that. It is a giant machine learning engine that was trained on things like 'pigs are bad' and 'women are bad' and 'sex is bad' and 'self-sacrifice is good' and evaluates it all. 

Again, the Good Place does a good job of this - whatever is keeping score is the same kind of thing here. 

[Sci-2]

12 minutes ago, .H. said:

The God-of-gods does exist, but is Shattered.  The Solitary God is posited (it would seem to me) to be the Unity.  That is, the One God.  That is, the God-of-gods, if not Shattered.  But that is both false in theory (one cannot unite the Infinite pieces, because they are broken infinitely) and also false in practice, there is no entity that is the Solitary God in the Outside.  Basically, the Solitary God is the mistaken human presumption that Kellhus is dispelling in Proyas, that the infinite God that is soemwhat like a human.  In reality, the Infinite God is humpty-dumpty and there is so putting it back together, because the true Unity concept is only possible through Zero, not One.  In fact, this points to The God-of-god's "genesis" if there could even be one, since there both must be and cannot be, in the nonexistence of everything, when there was essentially a singularity where everything both exists and does not at the same time.

The God-of-gods does still exist, but not as an entity.  It exists as the Cubit, the Unity of Zero, and the Unity of Itself-as-all-selves-not-added-together-but-subtracted.

Or, there is the possibility that I have lost even the little thing I call the semblance of my sanity.

 

Ah, this is the very interesting (IMO) Pandeism vs Panentheism question. God has dreamed up reality, but is the God now equivalent to the Dream or does it exist as Dreamer beyond the Dream?

I definitely don't think God is merely the top Being among Beings, as some adherents of Person-based Theism would suggest. The God of the Bakkerverse would be akin to the Scholastic Ground of Being, that which allows beings to be.

2 minutes ago, .H. said:

Hmm, I'm not trying to doubt you, but if you could find a quote for that, I'd be interested.  Because it's sort of a pet idea of mine that the Cubit does not care at all, it's only Mimara's own personal judgement that matters.  For example, it seems that the Eye couldn't care any less about Koringhus.  It's Mimara that forgives him though.

Ah yeah it's suggestive, but nothing definite. I'll try to dig up the quotes but I recall it being easily read as Mimara's subjective belief instead of anything objective regarding God in the Bakkerverse.

 

[noshowjones]

22 minutes ago, .H. said:

Hmm, I'm not trying to doubt you, but if you could find a quote for that, I'd be interested.  Because it's sort of a pet idea of mine that the Cubit does not care at all, it's only Mimara's own personal judgement that matters.  For example, it seems that the Eye couldn't care any less about Koringhus.  It's Mimara that forgives him though.

Doesn't she forgive Galian just before the rape or attempted rape, and is he not still damned after she forgives him? I may be misremembering this.

[Sci-2]

4 minutes ago, noshowjones said:

Doesn't she forgive Galian just before the rape or attempted rape, and is he not still damned after she forgives him? I may be misremembering this.

I thought she just forgave his final sin, not everything that happens before that.

Plus Galian had no sense of repentance, which likely is not even enough. The Survivor came to see Cause, and the interval between oneself and the world, as false.

[.H.]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Okay buddy, time to chill a bit. I don't want to get into how knowable ANYTHING is, but I think some things are less knowable than others, and the parable of the head on a pole is, IMO, one of the least knowable of the entire book given that its inspiration was not the metaphysics or other aspects of the story, but a simple weird image that existed in our world that Bakker wants to write about.

If I chill any more, I will fall asleep. 

That is true.  I mean, all I was trying to get at (and I think after this many years you know my general tactic) is not to discern absolute facts, but rather propose ideas and then attempt to rate their plausibility based off various subjective and textual clues.  In no way do I ever really propose to have discern facts, unless they are literal facts (like, it says this word, not that word).  In this sense, I rate it plausible that the head on a pole could be Kellhus' "method" of mastering the Daimos.  In no way do I deem it a given fact that it is his own head, but I rate it plausible, given some textual clues, that it could be.  And then I explore the implications of this in light of what Sci and I discussed earlier vis-à-vis Souls and the Outside being somewhat monad-like in nature.

I mean, it's probably pretty close to a lead-pipe lock that Bakker just put it in because he thought it was cool.  Doesn't mean it has to be completely meaningless though.

15 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

What I like about this analogy is that it also gives a real ability for the parts of the game to actually evolve past the code itself in unanticipated ways - between clever uses of game mechanics or actual exploits in code issues which were unforeseen.

Well, this is sort of the role of Mimara, I think, as Christ, in an "Answer to Job" sort of way.  That is, Mimara is the code that can see the code and alter outcomes aside from what that code would have dictated as it was.  In other words, yes, Mimara sees with the Judgement of the Cubit, but it is Mimara;s Judgement that is the key.  To what?  Well, we have to see, but I have at least one idea...

19 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Both would have been interesting to explore.

There is also the possibility that the Nonman coudn't know.  He suspects something is up, but Kellhus really drives it home when he tells him "what does it matter, so long as I kill your enemy."  I  think the Nonman agrees right there, because what does he care if a Ciphrang wants to kill the Inchoroi or Kellhus?  What's the real difference, as long as they Inchoroi are dead?  The Nonmen are damned anyway.

22 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I don't think that God has a plan, only an ability to state what is good and what is bad. This is one of the reasons Mimara and Kellhus are necessary - both have the sentience to utilize the tools given. Only God can judge something - but only Mimara can forgive. 

From a coding perspective, Mimara is super holy because she produces offspring which is even holier, so naturally her score is SUPER high.  That doesn't indicate a plan; it simply indicates a score. Why can she do all these things? Because she's got a super high level based on the code. Why does she have that level? As far as I can tell, that was largely arbitrary, or perhaps it's because Esmi also levelled up, or whatever. But it's not a plan, because a plan requires causative values, and code doesn't have that. It is a giant machine learning engine that was trained on things like 'pigs are bad' and 'women are bad' and 'sex is bad' and 'self-sacrifice is good' and evaluates it all. 

Again, the Good Place does a good job of this - whatever is keeping score is the same kind of thing here.

Right, Mimara as a Christ-figure gives the mortal vantage to the Divine.  That is, she knows the rules, but can decide against them.  That is, she has discretion.  She is conscious where The God is not.  The Cubit is just the rulebook.  Mimara is the referee.

23 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Ah, this is the very interesting (IMO) Pandeism vs Panentheism question. God has dreamed up reality, but is the God now equivalent to the Dream or does it exist as Dreamer beyond the Dream?

I definitely don't think God is merely the top Being among Beings, as some adherents of Person-based Theism would suggest. The God of the Bakkerverse would be akin to the Scholastic Ground of Being, that which allows beings to be.

Right, it's not, like the Fanim would propose, a heirarchy.  They put the Solitary God as above.  That is not what The God-of-gods is.  The Infinite God is all gods, as it is no god.  It is all beings as it is no Being, to get all Caligula-like for a moment.

[Kalbear]

Also, the most recent episode of the Good Place is ABSURDLY RELEVANT to this conversation

[.H.]

27 minutes ago, noshowjones said:

Doesn't she forgive Galian just before the rape or attempted rape, and is he not still damned after she forgives him? I may be misremembering this.

Mimara forgives, but she does not absolve.  So, where he didn't get that last sin, he still has all the rest.

In the case of Koringhus, he takes the forgiveness that Mimara offers for his "original sin," then he absolves himself of the rest via loss of himself.  That is, Koringhus realized that he (and the rest of the Dunyain) were predicated not on the Logos, or the Absolute, those are lies and bullshit.  Rather they were predicated on Survival.

Quote

Even then he had known that Cause had never been the Dûnyain’s First Principle.

And what else?

And Logos even less.

My eyes weep … weep for want of light!

They had settled upon these things simply because they could be seen. Even then he had understood this.

Yes … This is fear.

Darkness was their ground, their foe and foundation.

What is it?

The shrieking black.

The most simple rule.

Survival is the most simple rule.  And so, by throwing that away by killing himself, he actually dissolves his personal identity and manages to "save" his soul.  Thus, his renunciation of Survival is his path to redemption.

So, what of Mimara?  It is Mimara's judgement of him that allows Koringhus to "see" this.  To see that him and Mimara are no different, becasue in her forgiveness, Mimara shows that they are all broken.  That is, Mimara as Cubit says, you are the Cubit too.

Note that the quote above is exactly why Koringhus, before this, asks himself why he saved the crab-handed boy?  Why?  Not because of the Logos.  But because behind that is the Principle of Survival.  Survive at all costs.  Incidentally, I think this also applies to why Kellhus took the path he did...

[IlyaP]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Also, the most recent episode of the Good Place is ABSURDLY RELEVANT to this conversation

It's the Aussie accents, right? Everyone digs those totally heinous Aussie accents.

 

[Callan S.]

20 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Lol, still harping on about how we don't liek the ending cause it isn't happy? Cmon man, even the trolls have moved past that.

Lol, still can't actually describe the ending you want. So mute in that way.