Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

[lokisnow]

On 10/22/2018 at 1:09 PM, Kalbear said:

She banished the Wight, she forgave what's his face in WLW, and she allowed Koringhus to ascend. Those are pretty big deals, IMO.

Which were COMPLETELY FUCKED OVER IN TUC, but whatever.

Mimara exists because the Bakker and Women threads existed.  

That is to say,  she was a homunculus appended into the story in order to provide a token woman in Achamian's otherwise all male storyline. She is Bakker's proof, his prize!  She was given things to do, all of which have no relevance because it's an insertion without consequence to the overall story.  That is all.  Occasionally it seems like she does something of importance, but this is not so, it's just getting written into a corner, and then using the irrelevant character to solve the writing problem off screen.

This is also true of Serwa, Remember how Bakker said he was surprised that Serwa was such an interesting character with a good dynamic with Sorweel, that it had never really occured to him before he was forced to write it in TGO? well Serwa went exactly no where in the end, for no real reason other than that she was irrelevant.

The women were additions that provided token representation or solved writing problems deus ex style. How do we get out of [insert either non man mansion here]? Deus ex in a woman to solve it with the whatever (but don't actually show it or write it). How do we get Koringhus out of the story after he mansplains information turds? Deus ex in a woman to solve it with the whatever (but don't actually show it or write it).

[Kalbear]

It's an interesting meta analysis. What storylines were originally planned by Bakker and what were not? If you assume that the Momemn storyline wasn't, and you assume Mimara was a late addition (though probably Akka's quest was not), things make a lot more sense as far as why their storylines seemed to just wither and not do a whole lot. 

Heck, same goes for things like Psatma and Meppa and the like. They all don't really matter that much to the overall story, and could have easily been cut. 

Though it doesn't explain much about Kelmomas. Perhaps Kellhus was meant to be the No-God originally, but this was changed later?

[lokisnow]

hmm, if Momemn wasn't a storyline, then Esme (if still alive) and Kelmo would have been with Kellhus and the Ordeal. You only need Sorweel if the Momemn storyline exists (WLW setup), otherwise if they are with the ordeal all along you send Esme and Kelmomas to Ishterebinth rather than Sorweel. 

That puts Kelmomas inside the fucked up helmet, and perhaps shortens the way, so to speak, for being put inside the fucked up sarcophogus at the end (it's like foreshadowing but with ITALICS). It would also explain the origination of the voices in Kelmomas, as it's a by product of the idea of Kelmo in the fucked up helmet, retconned for us into the Momemn storyline now with the dead twin explainer.

Bakker gave us Serwa being rape tortured because it was character "development" for Sorweel, that means if it was originally Esme, Kelmomas in Ishterebinth, he'd have had Esme rape tortured for character "development" for Kelmomas and really explore that incestuous aspect.  I'd imagine he'd have Kelmomas raping his mother at some point, but rationalizing about how much she must like what she made him do because she's a whore. blah blah blah

[lokisnow]

15 minutes ago, Triskjavikson said:

"Are all men so weak as this, Father?"  

(directed at the author and not @lokisnow and hoping it's not true but fear that it could be)

That which comes before...

[Darth Richard II]

A year or two ago I would have said loki's theory was bonkers, but now, I dunno man.

[Callan S.]

It could only be.

[.H.]

9 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

A year or two ago I would have said loki's theory was bonkers, but now, I dunno man.

While the premise is sound, that doesn't mean all the following conclusions are given facts though.

If we presume that Mimara's role didn't exist, along with several other's, it's hard to then say that each was actually just a situational substitution without there being at least the same chance that those situations didn't exist prior either.

[Sci-2]

Mimara I'd buy as being a late addition (she's a clone of her mom down to fucking Akka lol) but Serwa seems too ingrained in the story?

 

[Kalbear]

4 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

Mimara I'd buy as being a late addition (she's a clone of her mom down to fucking Akka lol) but Serwa seems too ingrained in the story?

 

How so? Her large part is a sidequest to the nonmen mansion that Bakker himself said he came up with fairly recently and inserted a whole lot of new things in that hadn't been part of the lore before this. The other part - her fighting the dragon - is a big setpiece, but is not particularly relevant to the actual story either. 

Thematically, her feminist affirmation as being raised high because she's useful is a late addition as well, one that came out at least late in the PoN trilogy (because up until he wrote it, Bakker wanted to problematize something, and wasn't sold on feminism and was close to doing it about racism), and again isn't a big role in the No-God. 

[Darth Richard II]

Yeah I can’t think of anything she does that matters abd couldn’t be cut.

[lokisnow]

What’s the point of cil Aujis? why not have akka and the skin eaters up ahead of the great ordeal  in an outpost beyond sarkarpus  because the point of scalping is to soften the way for the ordeal, why even bother over on the other side of the continent?

I mean writing a cool Moria reference is fun and all but if you’re constrained by where you put mansions on old maps now you have to have two books to get akka to a library and two books for the ordeal to march north so they can make one left turn. 

Excepting the Moria onanism, Is anything really achieved by the narrative of The first book? Really white luck warrior accomplishes more, akka finds Smaug and nil giccas, the ordeal turns left, esme  nearly kills kellhus, and sorweel masturbates. 

[Kalbear]

Hell, Serwa isn't even that important for the Nonman part. Sorweel is, but Serwa barely matters except as a way to escape the thing - and even that isn't that important, as Sorweel awakening whatshisface and the Tall going on a rampage does a lot more than Serwa's offscreen antics do. 

[Sci-2]

With Serwa there's no one in Kellhus' family controlling the Witch School - it's not a major plot point but it does make sense for world building. Would such a School been as accepted if the daughter of the Messiah wasn't at its head?

Also Sorwell and Lil' Moe's arcs would be far less interesting...admittedly this is a case of a female character whose major point is to serve as a means to drive the stories of the men around her but that's arguably true of any female character in the Bakkerverse.

I do think y'all make a good argument for her being a late addition but I think her being a female Dunyain in the world contrasting the whale mothers was intended for some time.

[unJon]

Was looking at the TTT glossary and found the following in the Ajokli entry:

Ajokli is oft mentioned in the secondary scriptures of the different Cults, sometimes as a mischievous companion of the Gods, other times as a cruel or malicious competitor. In the Mar’eddat, he is the faithless husband of Gierra.

I think this is what passes as foreshadowing or an Easter Egg for Bakker. 

Ajokli is sometimes with the Gods and sometimes a competitor of the Gods. This is basically Kellhus post deal with Ajokli. It’s the Kel/Ajokli dichotomy warring for control of the Kel body. 

And Ajokli is mentioned in some book as the faithless husband of Gierra. This is a more explicit reference to Kellhus, the husband of the whore Esmenet. 

Anyone have any ideas about what the Mar’eddat is? Not mentioned in TTT. I didn’t search other books. No idea if there’s a meaningful Greek root in there. Best I could do is that it anagrams to “mad tread”, which is of course the “conditioned ground” on which Kel walks. 

[.H.]

28 minutes ago, unJon said:

Anyone have any ideas about what the Mar’eddat is? Not mentioned in TTT. I didn’t search other books. No idea if there’s a meaningful Greek root in there. Best I could do is that it anagrams to “mad tread”, which is of course the “conditioned ground” on which Kel walks. 

Well, it isn't mentioned again, until the same entry in TUC.  In other words, there are no clues as to what it is.  The only "circumstantial" evidence I can think of would be that it is a sacred scripture particular to the Cult of Ajokli itself.  That is, like Yatwer's Sinyatwa.

Note that the TUC entry goes further:

Quote

Ajokli is oft mentioned in the secondary scriptures of the different Cults, sometimes as a mischievous companion of the Gods, other times as a cruel or malicious competitor. In the Mar’eddat, he is the faithless husband of Gierra. In the Book of Gods he is nothing less than the dread enemy of mankind, the one God too hungry to remain in the Outside. In the Book of Hintarates he is the same, but depleted for his endless grasping, and so reduced to craft and insinuation.

And note that the Book of Gods is conspicuously correct.

[noshowjones]

On 10/24/2018 at 7:36 PM, lokisnow said:

Mimara exists because the Bakker and Women threads existed.  

That is to say,  she was a homunculus appended into the story in order to provide a token woman in Achamian's otherwise all male storyline. She is Bakker's proof, his prize!  She was given things to do, all of which have no relevance because it's an insertion without consequence to the overall story.  That is all.  Occasionally it seems like she does something of importance, but this is not so, it's just getting written into a corner, and then using the irrelevant character to solve the writing problem off screen.

This is also true of Serwa, Remember how Bakker said he was surprised that Serwa was such an interesting character with a good dynamic with Sorweel, that it had never really occured to him before he was forced to write it in TGO? well Serwa went exactly no where in the end, for no real reason other than that she was irrelevant.

The women were additions that provided token representation or solved writing problems deus ex style. How do we get out of [insert either non man mansion here]? Deus ex in a woman to solve it with the whatever (but don't actually show it or write it). How do we get Koringhus out of the story after he mansplains information turds? Deus ex in a woman to solve it with the whatever (but don't actually show it or write it).

I agree 100% with everything here. I considered it quite some time ago after learning of all the Bakker/misogyny stuff. Then reading the whale mothers scene, I could only conclude he needed something to counteract how problematic that was.

 

On 10/24/2018 at 7:47 PM, Kalbear said:

It's an interesting meta analysis. What storylines were originally planned by Bakker and what were not? If you assume that the Momemn storyline wasn't, and you assume Mimara was a late addition (though probably Akka's quest was not), things make a lot more sense as far as why their storylines seemed to just wither and not do a whole lot. 

Heck, same goes for things like Psatma and Meppa and the like. They all don't really matter that much to the overall story, and could have easily been cut. 

Though it doesn't explain much about Kelmomas. Perhaps Kellhus was meant to be the No-God originally, but this was changed later?

Yeah, probably this is pretty close to the mark. I'm not sure about the Kellhus=No-God part, but people were certainly theorizing that at the conclusion of the PoN trilogy. When I reread it, it seemed to me that the No-God was talking to Kellhus, and that it appeared to be some sort of entity. I don't think Bakker had actually decided who or what it was prior to tAE. I think he decided to say it was NC because it seemed cool and fucked up. It doesn't actually make much sense, especially in the context of what we learn in tUC. The Consult has possession of the greatest general/greatest warrior of their enemies, and they were ACTUALLY ABLE TO SUBVERT HIM. The Inverse Fire worked on NC. There would be no reason he wouldn't have fought for the Consult at that point when you weigh it against literally everything we have learned. Instead, they throw him into the No-God device, which has killed tens of thousands of people before him, on the off chance that he is able to animate it. The chances it would kill him were nearly 100%. The chances that NC taking the field as a general for the Consult would break humankind were also nearly 100%. Their greatest hero: a villain. 

As an aside, I wonder if it is the addition of non-man blood to the Anasurimbor bloodline that makes them able to power the NG.

[lokisnow]

10 minutes ago, noshowjones said:

As an aside, I wonder if it is the addition of non-man blood to the Anasurimbor bloodline that makes them able to power the NG.

nah, no way is it genetics, it's metaphysical, being twin-souled. that is to say, the twin souled complete the circuit of watcher and watched within themselves, they don't require any linkage to the outside to function. The carapace exploits this anomalous miniature circuit.

So the all too real (but metaphysical) murder that happens when the carapace breaks the circuit for the entity inside the carapace, that murder does not take effect if the person within the carapace is twin souled, because in miniature they have a completed circuit. Ergo they ain't kilt.

 

to torture a metaphor, you could call the No God the great Circuit Breaker.

[noshowjones]

1 minute ago, lokisnow said:

nah, no way is it genetics, it's metaphysical, being twin-souled. that is to say, the twin souled complete the circuit of watcher and watched within themselves, they don't require any linkage to the outside to function. The carapace exploits this anomalous miniature circuit.

 

to torture a metaphor, you could call the No God the great Circuit Breaker.

That's possible. Perhaps something about being an Anasurimbor makes a person more likely to be twin-souled. It just seems like entirely too much of a coincidence that both instertants were of the same family line. Although, there are certainly a lot of other coincidences in the books. 

[unJon]

22 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

nah, no way is it genetics, it's metaphysical, being twin-souled. that is to say, the twin souled complete the circuit of watcher and watched within themselves, they don't require any linkage to the outside to function. The carapace exploits this anomalous miniature circuit.

So the all too real (but metaphysical) murder that happens when the carapace breaks the circuit for the entity inside the carapace, that murder does not take effect if the person within the carapace is twin souled, because in miniature they have a completed circuit. Ergo they ain't kilt.

 

to torture a metaphor, you could call the No God the great Circuit Breaker.

No evidence that NC is twin souled. 

[Consigliere]

1 hour ago, unJon said:

No evidence that NC is twin souled. 

Yeah. IIRC, it was Celmomas who was said to be twin souled and not NC. 

Besides that, Bakker did mention in that AMA that what enables the Carapace is the ability of the person's brain to functionally emulate that of an original insertant. So nothing to do with bloodline or being twin souled.