Why did Varys murder Pycelle?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

I was just thinking about this the other day, and I think I may have missed something obvious, so please indulge me.

Varys spells out his motives for killing Kevan quite clearly, and they make sense – it’s to sow discord between the Tyrells and Cersei, and to remove a capable and consensus-building leader. But why did he bother to kill Pycelle too? While Pycelle is undoubtedly useful to the Lannisters, I don’t really see an obvious reason to killing him. It’s not like he’s capable of stepping into Kevan’s shoes, and he would most likely just file in line behind Cersei or the Tyrells and do what he’s told.

Ideas that have run through my mind have been from the mundane – he was a Lannister loyalist who Varys saw an opportunity to just get rid of, for example; to vague conspiracy theories – he had dangerous information from the Aerys II years that might threaten Varys or help expose fAegon.

Does anyone have an opinion on this matter?

[honorable men]

I believe the only way for fAegon to advance further than taking a couple castles in the Stormlands is to get the Religious Zealots on your side.  

How killing Pycelle to achieve this is unknown 

[rotting sea cow]

14 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I was just thinking about this the other day, and I think I may have missed something obvious, so please indulge me.

Varys spells out his motives for killing Kevan quite clearly, and they make sense – it’s to sow discord between the Tyrells and Cersei, and to remove a capable and consensus-building leader. But why did he bother to kill Pycelle too? While Pycelle is undoubtedly useful to the Lannisters, I don’t really see an obvious reason to killing him. It’s not like he’s capable of stepping into Kevan’s shoes, and he would most likely just file in line behind Cersei or the Tyrells and do what he’s told.

Ideas that have run through my mind have been from the mundane – he was a Lannister loyalist who Varys saw an opportunity to just get rid of, for example; to vague conspiracy theories – he had dangerous information from the Aerys II years that might threaten Varys or help expose fAegon.

Does anyone have an opinion on this matter?

They are many reasons, from strategic to operational.

Pycelle knew something about ruling the realm. He has been sitting around in KL for a long time. He could easily have made moves to bring stability to the crown. He is the one who brought Kevan back to KL, not Swift.

Pycelle knew Aegon and probably examined his body. He is the one who can really cast doubts about Aegon's origins.

Pycelle and Tyrion hate each other. The assassination can be more easily blamed on Tyrion feeding Cersei paranoia.

It is very possible that critical information (fall of Storm's End, uprising in the Riverlands, defeat of Bolton, etc) arrived and needed to be kept away of the Council. Until they find another maester, KL will be nearly deaf.

You need a ruse to bring Kevan out of his quarters and make sure he is not with guards around.

 

 

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 minute ago, rotting sea cow said:

They are many reasons, from strategic to operational.

Pycelle knew something about ruling the realm. He has been sitting around in KL for a long time. He could easily have made moves to bring stability to the crown. He is the one who brought Kevan back to KL, not Swift.

Pycelle knew Aegon and probably examined his body. He is the one who can really cast doubts about Aegon's origins.

Pycelle and Tyrion hate each other. The assassination can be more easily blamed on Tyrion feeding Cersei paranoia.

It is very possible that critical information (fall of Storm's End, uprising in the Riverlands, defeat of Bolton, etc) arrived and needed to be kept away of the Council. Until they find another maester, KL will be nearly deaf.

You need a ruse to bring Kevan out of his quarters and make sure he is not with guards around.

Thanks, yeah there are several possible reasons. I just can't think myself to a clear winner.

There's also the ongoing question of Pycelle’s backstory, and why he was so loyal to Tywin. I’m also wondering if it is connected to that.

[honorable men]

4 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

They are many reasons, from strategic to operational.

Pycelle knew something about ruling the realm. He has been sitting around in KL for a long time. He could easily have made moves to bring stability to the crown. He is the one who brought Kevan back to KL, not Swift.

Pycelle knew Aegon and probably examined his body. He is the one who can really cast doubts about Aegon's origins.

Pycelle and Tyrion hate each other. The assassination can be more easily blamed on Tyrion feeding Cersei paranoia.

It is very possible that critical information (fall of Storm's End, uprising in the Riverlands, defeat of Bolton, etc) arrived and needed to be kept away of the Council. Until they find another maester, KL will be nearly deaf.

You need a ruse to bring Kevan out of his quarters and make sure he is not with guards around.

 

 

 

How will this achieve fAegon's taking over though?

[honorable men]

We only had maybe 2-3  Blackfrye rebellions with just enough details. Its always land with a army. And take the IT through brute force. 

 

Rinse & Repeat

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Just thinking these through:

11 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Pycelle knew something about ruling the realm. He has been sitting around in KL for a long time. He could easily have made moves to bring stability to the crown. He is the one who brought Kevan back to KL, not Swift.

Yes, he's capable, but I think keeping Cersei and the Tyrells in check is beyond him. He couldn't before in Feast. He's a useful henchman, not a ruler. That doesn't necessarily invalidate it as a motive, but bashing his head in because he's good at admin strikes me as overkill (literally).

12 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Pycelle knew Aegon and probably examined his body. He is the one who can really cast doubts about Aegon's origins.

That thought struck me too, but unless the baby or fAegon have some obvious birthmarks or something it seems unlikely (but not impossible).

14 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Pycelle and Tyrion hate each other. The assassination can be more easily blamed on Tyrion feeding Cersei paranoia.

That does make sense, but then I would have thought killing Kevan with a crossbow would have done the job anyway. Still, it may add fuel to the fire.

15 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

It is very possible that critical information (fall of Storm's End, uprising in the Riverlands, defeat of Bolton, etc) arrived and needed to be kept away of the Council. Until they find another maester, KL will be nearly deaf.

This is an interesting thought. The Rosby Maester is close though isn't he? And I doubt Pycelle is the only Maester left in Kingslanding.

Still, that could be it, or something close too it. Maybe Pycelle had received or was about to receive important information that Varys wanted his hands on. Or, and this is a bit more out there as an idea, Pycelle had something (documents perhaps) in his possession that Varys wanted, and only Pycelle would miss.

[The Sleeper]

One possible reason could be that he could exonerate Margaery by retracting his testimony about the moon tea, thus leaving doubts and driving a wedge between the Throne and the Tyrells.

In another thread it was suggested that Varys is a Targaryen loyalist. Opportunity and revenge would be a motive then. 

Another aspect could be that Pycelle could deny Aegon's purported origin. Being a Lannister man and actually present in the Sack, he could declare Aegon as an impostor, truthfully or not and his opinion would carry weight. 

Frankly, I can't imagine anyone who interacted with Pycelle for over two decades, not think about killing him at one point or another. 

Any or all of the above. 

[rotting sea cow]

2 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Just thinking these through:

Yes, he's capable, but I think keeping Cersei and the Tyrells in check is beyond him. He couldn't before in Feast. He's a useful henchman, not a ruler. That doesn't necessarily invalidate it as a motive, but bashing his head in because he's good at admin strikes me as overkill (literally).

Cersei is imprisoned in Maegor's holdfast. Under normal circumstances Pycelle could assure the Tyrells that Cersei will remain there and call for other Lannister representatives (e.g. Devan)

2 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That thought struck me too, but unless the baby or fAegon have some obvious birthmarks or something it seems unlikely (but not impossible).

He can assure that the body presented to Robert was Aegon.

2 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That does make sense, but then I would have thought killing Kevan with a crossbow would have done the job anyway. Still, it may add fuel to the fire.

Indeed.

 

2 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

This is an interesting thought. The Rosby Maester is close though isn't he? And I doubt Pycelle is the only Maester left in Kingslanding.

Rosby is now controlled by late Rosby's squire, a Stark loyalist

2 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Still, that could be it, or something close too it. Maybe Pycelle had received or was about to receive important information that Varys wanted his hands on. Or, and this is a bit more out there as an idea, Pycelle had something (documents perhaps) in his possession that Varys wanted, and only Pycelle would miss.

Probably too. Also Pycelle knows Varys

[hodorisfaclessman]

Having the maester at kl a lannister loyalist is far too great a liability given he handles both healthcare for nobility and communication for anyone who siezes the capital !

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

9 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Cersei is imprisoned in Maegor's holdfast. Under normal circumstances Pycelle could assure the Tyrells that Cersei will remain there and call for other Lannister representatives (e.g. Devan)

True.

10 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

He can assure that the body presented to Robert was Aegon.

Ahh, great point.

People will believe who they want to believe on this though. His word may count for something however, I grant you.

11 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Rosby is now controlled by late Rosby's squire, a Stark loyalist

Stark loyalist? Fill me in on that one please!

12 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Probably too. Also Pycelle knows Varys

Yeah, they probably have enough dirt on each other by now.

[The Sunland Lord]

Maybe it was revenge because Pycelle adviced Aerys do open the gates to Lannister's army and the city was sacked and Elia and the children were murdered.

It was exactly Varys who counseled Aerys to do the opposite.

[rotting sea cow]

3 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Stark loyalist? Fill me in on that one please!

It is widely believed that Gyles Rosby ward is Olyvar Frey. Someone who truly served and respected Robb Stark and had to be sent away by his family because he was too close to Robb.

On a similar issue. Nearby Stokeworth castle is controled by Bronn.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

17 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

It is widely believed that Gyles Rosby ward is Olyvar Frey. Someone who truly served and respected Robb Stark and had to be sent away by his family because he was too close to Robb.

Oh. I saw that theory floating about, but didn't realise it was widely believed.

Why would Rosby want Olyvar as his heir?

Also, there's an SSM where GRRM refers to Rosby's ward. "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91

Granted, that's about another theory which was that the ward was Aegon, but I think it's safe to say GRRM is saying that Rosby's ward is what he appears to be.

[The Sleeper]

I believe that Olyvar's, Perwyn's and Roslin's mother was a Rosby and thus Perwyn might have a claim as the eldest. I don't recall Rosby's ward being of his blood. 

[Leo of House Cartel]

Perhaps a clever way to sow distrust between the Citadel and Red Keep?

One would think the murder of a 40+ year tenured Grand Maester could be cause for some form of investigation by the Archmaesters of Oldtown.

Of course, the entire crime scene could have been orchestrated to make Cersei believe Tyrion was the culprit - the Imp has a well known dislike of Pycelle, the Grand Maester being murdered could serve as extra seasoning. Cersei, alongside many at court, may already take Tyrion to be the culprit, as he killed his father and many believe he also killed his nephew. Having the Imp's old enemy Pycelle laying dead near Kevan's body could be the extra seasoning needed for a treacherous recipe. 

Varys has his spies in KL, so will probably know all too well how the queen regent's paranoia and distrust is already consuming her - actual evidence of Tyrion "running around inside the walls of Maegor's Holdfast"would surely speed up her mental descent, perhaps making Young Aegon's Conquest all the easier.

With Pycelle's head bashed in and Kevan stabbed multiple times, the whole deal looks like a crime of passion, as opposed to a professional style assassination. Also, consider the physical stature of the Little Birds who committed the stabbing being close to Tyrion's height - perhaps whoever is in charge of the murder inquiry will notice the stab wounds coming from a low angle and automatically assume Tyrion was involved. 

Also, many at court are likely to consider Cersei herself as a possible culprit. Pycelle's public testimonial regarding Margaery and the moon tea could certainly be considered a solid reason for the Lioness to want to kill the crooked Maester - by giving Marge the contraceptive, old Pycelle was undermining Cersei and disrespecting her beloved son. The murder of Kevan will surely have some people pointing the finger at Cersei, considerng he had recently stripped her of her power.

All in all, it seems like the Spider has weaved an intricate web which is sure to catch more than a few "buzzing flies".

[The Sleeper]

4 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Perhaps a clever way to sow distrust between the Citadel and Red Keep?

One would think the murder of a 40+ year tenured Grand Maester could be cause for some form of investigation by the Archmaesters of Oldtown.

Of course, the entire crime scene could have been orchestrated to make Cersei believe Tyrion was the culprit - the Imp has a well known dislike of Pycelle, the Grand Maester being murdered could serve as extra seasoning. Cersei, alongside many at court, may already take Tyrion to be the culprit, as he killed his father and many believe he also killed his nephew. Having the Imp's old enemy Pycelle laying dead near Kevan's body could be the extra seasoning needed for a treacherous recipe. 

Varys has his spies in KL, so will probably know all too well how the queen regent's paranoia and distrust is already consuming her - actual evidence of Tyrion "running around inside the walls of Maegor's Holdfast"would surely speed up her mental descent, perhaps making Young Aegon's Conquest all the easier.

With Pycelle's head bashed in and Kevan stabbed multiple times, the whole deal looks like a crime of passion, as opposed to a professional style assassination. Also, consider the physical stature of the Little Birds who committed the stabbing being close to Tyrion's height - perhaps whoever is in charge of the murder inquiry will notice the stab wounds coming from a low angle and automatically assume Tyrion was involved. 

Also, many at court are likely to consider Cersei herself as a possible culprit. Pycelle's public testimonial regarding Margaery and the moon tea could certainly be considered a solid reason for the Lioness to want to kill the crooked Maester - by giving Marge the contraceptive, old Pycelle was undermining Cersei and disrespecting her beloved son. The murder of Kevan will surely have some people pointing the finger at Cersei, considerng he had recently stripped her of her power.

All in all, it seems like the Spider has weaved an intricate web which is sure to catch more than a few "buzzing flies".

Good observation about the little birds' height.

The problem with the frame job now that I think about it is that neither Mace nor Cersei are likely to be too broken up about either of the dead. Sure they might use it as ammunition against each other, but ultimately it is rather convenient for both of them. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

27 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

neither Mace nor Cersei are likely to be too broken up about either of the dead. Sure they might use it as ammunition against each other, but ultimately it is rather convenient for both of them. 

True, but that's what's clever about it. Both have a motive, and know they did not do it, so will suspect the other. As to the frame job, it will further play to Cersei's wacko conspiracy theory that the Tyrells were teamed up with Tyrion (which Varys originally set on course with the Gardner coin in the gaoler's bedroom.

[The Sleeper]

10 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

True, but that's what's clever about it. Both have a motive, and know they did not do it, so will suspect the other. As to the frame job, it will further play to Cersei's wacko conspiracy theory that the Tyrells were teamed up with Tyrion (which Varys originally set on course with the Gardner coin in the gaoler's bedroom.

I don't know. In Cersei's head even Kevan was in cahoots with the Tyrells. Notwithstanding the fact that he coerced her in the walk of shame and was basically her jailor. She might think her enemies are turning on each other and be quite jubilant about it, rather than go on a psychotic break. After all consider what this means for Cersei. The Lannister guardsmen for one would obey her again. And I do think that Cersei is capable of playing the cowed woman and bide her time. 

A similar response could be seen from the Tyrell side. Kevan was an obstacle and Pycelle compromised Margaery. They would think that Cersei did them a favor.

These two do have common interests after all. It might not be the result Varys was expecting. Or it might be but in a different direction. Both sides would be all too happy to deal with the High Sparrow with force and push the Faith in Aegon's arms. 

[dmfn]

I think Pycelle held too many loose ends. He knows Jon Arryn was poisoned. He probably knows Tyrion is innocent. He knows Margary is. He knows about Aerys' wildfire cache. He saw a dead baby Aegon, and could deny fAegon. Plus he actively supported anything Lannister for 30 years.