Why did Varys murder Pycelle?

[Lost Melnibonean]

13 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I was just thinking about this the other day, and I think I may have missed something obvious, so please indulge me.

Varys spells out his motives for killing Kevan quite clearly, and they make sense – it’s to sow discord between the Tyrells and Cersei, and to remove a capable and consensus-building leader. But why did he bother to kill Pycelle too? While Pycelle is undoubtedly useful to the Lannisters, I don’t really see an obvious reason to killing him. It’s not like he’s capable of stepping into Kevan’s shoes, and he would most likely just file in line behind Cersei or the Tyrells and do what he’s told.

Ideas that have run through my mind have been from the mundane – he was a Lannister loyalist who Varys saw an opportunity to just get rid of, for example; to vague conspiracy theories – he had dangerous information from the Aerys II years that might threaten Varys or help expose fAegon.

Does anyone have an opinion on this matter?

Wasn't Pycelle the one brought Kevan back to King's Landing? And maybe, just maybe, with Tywin and Kevan dead, Pycelle might be expected to quit on Cersei and throw in with House Tyrell. Either way, the old dude was a voice for reason on Tomen's council. 

[Lord Varys]

I don't think Pycelle had much time left. He is an old done man. He couldn't have possibly messed with things in a meaningful manner, and if he had lived the Tyrells would have quickly pushed him aside.

If there is a reason beside the Kevan trap then most likely something in Varys and Pycelle's past.

Most likely the eunuch thing. I mean, come on, it is quite clear that Varys the Woman and Pycelle the lusty fondler of young girls had more than just one thing going in the good old days.

[Roswell]

14 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I was just thinking about this the other day, and I think I may have missed something obvious, so please indulge me.

Varys spells out his motives for killing Kevan quite clearly, and they make sense – it’s to sow discord between the Tyrells and Cersei, and to remove a capable and consensus-building leader. But why did he bother to kill Pycelle too? While Pycelle is undoubtedly useful to the Lannisters, I don’t really see an obvious reason to killing him. It’s not like he’s capable of stepping into Kevan’s shoes, and he would most likely just file in line behind Cersei or the Tyrells and do what he’s told.

Ideas that have run through my mind have been from the mundane – he was a Lannister loyalist who Varys saw an opportunity to just get rid of, for example; to vague conspiracy theories – he had dangerous information from the Aerys II years that might threaten Varys or help expose fAegon.

Does anyone have an opinion on this matter?

This.  Maybe Pycelle delivered the Targaryen children and Aegon had a mark.  

[Lost Melnibonean]

Oh, and Varys not only wanted to take down Kevan and Tommen's hope for stability, but also to inflame Tyrell versus Lannister. Pycelle was known to be a Lannister creature. 

[Lollygag]

Lots of great ideas on this thread (haven't read them all yet). I feel like one of them at least was that Pycelle unlike most in KL was incorruptibly loyal to the Lannisters which would only mean he'd get in the way ~somehow~. AGOT explains Ned being especially dangerous for this same incorruptibility. 

I think the source of his loyalty was this incident described below. In Pycelle's mind at least Tywin has done something terrible for the greater good comparable to Quenton Hightower. I think we have more to learn about Tywin...

AFFC Jaime I

Without his beard, Pycelle looked not only old, but feeble. Shaving him was the cruelest thing Tyrion could have done, thought Jaime, who knew what it was to lose a part of yourself, the part that made you who you were. Pycelle's beard had been magnificent, white as snow and soft as lambswool, a luxuriant growth that covered cheeks and chin and flowed down almost to his belt. The Grand Maester had been wont to stroke it when he pontificated. It had given him an air of wisdom, and concealed all manner of unsavory things: the loose skin dangling beneath the old man's jaw, the small querulous mouth and missing teeth, warts and wrinkles and age spots too numerous to count. Though Pycelle was trying to regrow what he had lost, he was failing. Only wisps and tufts sprouted from his wrinkled cheeks and weak chin, so thin that Jaime could see the splotchy pink skin beneath.

"Ser Jaime, I have seen terrible things in my time," the old man said. "Wars, battles, murders most foul . . . I was a boy in Oldtown when the grey plague took half the city and three-quarters of the Citadel. Lord Hightower burned every ship in port, closed the gates, and commanded his guards to slay all those who tried to flee, be they men, women, or babes in arms. They killed him when the plague had run its course. On the very day he reopened the port, they dragged him from his horse and slit his throat, and his young son's as well. To this day the ignorant in Oldtown will spit at the sound of his name, but Quenton Hightower did what was needed. Your father was that sort of man as well. A man who did what was needed."

"Is that why he looks so pleased with himself?"

The vapors rising from the corpse were making Pycelle's eyes water. "The flesh . . . as the flesh dries, the muscles grow taut and pull his lips upward. That is no smile, only a . . . a drying, that is all." He blinked back tears. "You must excuse me. I am so very tired." Leaning heavily on his cane, Pycelle tottered slowly from the sept. That one is dying too, Jaime realized. Small wonder Cersei called him useless.

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys needed a ploy to get Kevan out of Maegor's Holdfast and at a place where he could kill him. Pycelle's is ideal for that, and it would be difficult to do that with a living Pycelle there.

Yeah, that's plausible, but as a sole reason it seems unlikely, as I'm sure Varys could have come up with other ways to get to Kevan. It's more likely, in my opinion, that he decided to kill them both, then hatched a plan as to how.

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If Varys has a reason to kill Pycelle it could be resolve old issues, to silence a man who might know too much about Varys' deeds back in the days of Aerys II. And, of course, to finally punish the man who is responsible for the Sack and thus, indirectly, also for the death of King Aerys and the murder of Elia and Princess Rhaenys (and Prince Aegon, if Varys could not actually save him).

This seems the most likely reason for me. A mixture of revenge, and getting rid of someone who has knowledge of the past.

I had a thought last night. Pycelle was made made Grand Maester in the time of Aegon V. The secrets Pycelle is privy to go back much further than just those of the Mad King, and could actually include some knowledge, or even involvement, in Summerhall. If you subscribe to the theory that the Maesters were responsible for the downfall of the Targaryens, this might be important, and linked to the motive Varys has to kill him.

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

12 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

No need for convoluted theories.

Tywin restored Pycelle as Grand Maester after Varys informed him that the Citadel was on the verge of sending Mace's uncle Gormon Tyrell to become Grand Maester.

We also know from AFFC (Cercei II) and ADWD (Epilogue) that Mace wanted his other uncle Garth the Gross to serve on the Small Council as Master of Coin/Lord Treasurer.

If something were to happen to Harys while in Braavos, the Small Council could soon be looking at three Tyrells, a Tarley, and a Redwyne, with only Jaime (off in the Riverlands) and Qyburn other than that.

Varys explicitly tells Kevan that Cersei will blame the Tyrells for his murder, which is consistent with everything we know of Cersei's thoughts on the Tyrells.

Pycelle's death simply paves the way for more Tyrells to take more positions of power as "Doubt, division, and mistrust" eat the very ground beneath Tommen.

This makes sense in many ways, but is it in Varys's interests to tip the balance of power too much in the Tyrells' favour? A severe power struggle is more likely if the odds are more even, otherwise the Tyrells can simply take over (though if they're clever, they would at least have some Lannister involvement in the government, to keep them on board.

[The Sleeper]

4 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

This makes sense in many ways, but is it in Varys's interests to tip the balance of power too much in the Tyrells' favour? A severe power struggle is more likely if the odds are more even, otherwise the Tyrells can simply take over (though if they're clever, they would at least have some Lannister involvement in the government, to keep them on board.

That is one of the problems with Kevan's murder. Mace or Margaery could potentially take over the regency. That would make them immovable from Tommen's. This is not beneficial to Aegon no matter how you cut it. 

[rotting sea cow]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Pycelle knows stuff about Aegon doesn't convince me - Pycelle hears about Aegon during the council session and he doesn't mention anything indicating that he definitely knows the boy is dead. 

One cannot ignore the writer intentions during that dialog in Kevan's epilogue. Nor that if Pycelle said something like "the boy is dead, I saw his body" we - readers - are forced to believe him and we would never entertain the idea that maybe Aegon is the real deal. A lot of discussions would have been easier. Because there is nobody better among the living to disprove Aegon's parentage than Pycelle. He likely assisted during his birth, treated him of whatever illness he had during his first year and very probably saw his body.  No one else can do that, nor Jaime, Barristan or even Varys.

Instead, GRRM leaves us wondering. And I really hope we never get a truly confirmation of his origins but we enough pieces to figure it out.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

One cannot ignore the writer intentions during that dialog in Kevan's epilogue. Nor that if Pycelle said something like "the boy is dead, I saw his body" we - readers - are forced to believe him and we would never entertain the idea that maybe Aegon is the real deal. A lot of discussions would have been easier. Because there is nobody better among the living to disprove Aegon's parentage than Pycelle. He likely assisted during his birth, treated him of whatever illness he had during his first year and very probably saw his body.  No one else can do that, nor Jaime, Barristan or even Varys.

Instead, GRRM leaves us wondering. And I really hope we never get a truly confirmation of his origins but we enough pieces to figure it out.

Dragonstone had its own maester, and there is no indication that Aegon has any birthmark or other thing that could be used to identify him as an adult nor any hint that Pycelle had seen such a mark while he was a babe. Not to mention that there is no reason to believe Aegon would subject himself to an examination by Pycelle. The man is working for his enemies.

[Bael's Bastard]

6 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

This makes sense in many ways, but is it in Varys's interests to tip the balance of power too much in the Tyrells' favour? A severe power struggle is more likely if the odds are more even, otherwise the Tyrells can simply take over (though if they're clever, they would at least have some Lannister involvement in the government, to keep them on board.

I don't think there is any amount of power the Tyrells can acquire under the current regime that would hurt Varys's interests. Even if the Tyrells were to get rid of every Lannister around Tommen, and fill every position of power around him, that would just make them the most powerful and influential players in a doomed regime.

Varys knows the Lannister ship is sinking, and soon to go under, and that the Tyrells will have to either sink with it, and lose everything trying to prop up the Lannisters, or jump ship, and reap the rewards of throwing their support behind AeGriff. Their current ambitions are tied to an eight or nine year old Tommen who won't be able to put an heir in Maegaerys for years, years he doesn't have.

The Lannister-Tyrell alliance is inherently unstable at this point, so all Varys needs is to manipulate that for the short term, while AeGriff takes Storm's End and makes his presence known to the lords of the realm. He doesn't need to maintain balance between Lannister and Tyrell, just undermine their already unstable relationship.

[Bael's Bastard]

8 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

That is one of the problems with Kevan's murder. Mace or Margaery could potentially take over the regency. That would make them immovable from Tommen's. This is not beneficial to Aegon no matter how you cut it. 

The Tyrell attachment to Tommen is more of a threat to the Tyrells than it is to AeGriff. The marriage is only useful so long as it can create a blood tie between the houses through an heir. No matter how much more power the Tyrells acquire over Tommen, they will still be stuck with a king who will not be able to produce an heir for years, years they don't have.

[Bael's Bastard]

3 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

One cannot ignore the writer intentions during that dialog in Kevan's epilogue. Nor that if Pycelle said something like "the boy is dead, I saw his body" we - readers - are forced to believe him and we would never entertain the idea that maybe Aegon is the real deal. A lot of discussions would have been easier. Because there is nobody better among the living to disprove Aegon's parentage than Pycelle. He likely assisted during his birth, treated him of whatever illness he had during his first year and very probably saw his body.  No one else can do that, nor Jaime, Barristan or even Varys.

Instead, GRRM leaves us wondering. And I really hope we never get a truly confirmation of his origins but we enough pieces to figure it out.

There is no indication that Aegon was born in King's Landing. The earliest placement of Aegon is on Dragonstone at the start of 282 AC, which couldn't have been long after he was born. The earliest indication of Aegon being in King's Landing is between the Battle of the Bells and Battle of the Trident in 283 AC when Aerys reminded Lewyn that he held Elia. Not to say Pycelle never saw Aegon, or a baby claimed to be Aegon, but considering the story sold is going to be that Aegon was switched at some point, Pycelle very likely didn't see Aegon at birth, and might not have seen him for the first months of his life. Enough time to cast doubt on anything he could claim to know about Aegon, which we get no indication he had any special or unique knowledge about Aegon.

[The Sleeper]

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The Tyrell attachment to Tommen is more of a threat to the Tyrells than it is to AeGriff. The marriage is only useful so long as it can create a blood tie between the houses through an heir. No matter how much more power the Tyrells acquire over Tommen, they will still be stuck with a king who will not be able to produce an heir for years, years they don't have.

The marriage seals the alliance through which the Tyrells got offices, lands etc. If Mace becomes regent he basically rules the kingdom as he sees fit and can look forward to an adult Tommen being his puppet. The value is power and they could potentially get all of it. This would give Mace all the more reason to defend Tommen.

[BlackLightning]

I think we can all agree that Margaery is going to become the new Queen Regent. Which will ultimately do nothing but put a target on her back.

On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 5:22 AM, rotting sea cow said:

They are many reasons, from strategic to operational.

Pycelle knew something about ruling the realm. He has been sitting around in KL for a long time. He could easily have made moves to bring stability to the crown. He is the one who brought Kevan back to KL, not Swift.

Pycelle knew Aegon and probably examined his body. He is the one who can really cast doubts about Aegon's origins.

Pycelle and Tyrion hate each other. The assassination can be more easily blamed on Tyrion feeding Cersei paranoia.

It is very possible that critical information (fall of Storm's End, uprising in the Riverlands, defeat of Bolton, etc) arrived and needed to be kept away of the Council. Until they find another maester, KL will be nearly deaf.

You need a ruse to bring Kevan out of his quarters and make sure he is not with guards around.

4

4

All of this.

I would add that Pycelle is an ally of Cersei (even though, she might not consider him as such because of how often he disagrees with her) and GRRM wanted Cersei to be completely alone and surrounded by true enemies and their puppets in Winds.

Wasn't Pycelle a huge rival of Varys back in the days of Aerys' reign? I seem to remember Pycelle told Aerys to allow Tywin Lannister entry int othe city whereas Varys fiercely argued against it.

Pycelle is probably one of the few people who can out Aegon as a fraud or an pretender and still be taken seriously.

I would also add that getting another maester is going to be impossible for King's Landing after Euron takes control of the Citadel and sacks Oldtown. But it all depends on when the Citadel finds out and when Euron beats the Redwynes and the Hightowers. Because if the Citadel finds out before the big battle between the Ironborn and the Hightower/Redwyne forces, then it's going to be like @Leo of House Cartel says: the Citadel is not sending a maester, they are sending an investigator or an inquisitor.

So Cersei has two legal problems to deal with: the Faith and the inevitable fallout from that and then this detective who will undoubtedly start digging up some dirt. LOL -- what if the detective finds out about Robert Strong and Qyburn's secret lab. Oooh, can anyone say drama...

There's going to be a lot of agents creeping and crawling over King's Landing. Honestly, Aegon's arrival and Dornish influence will do the city some good.

Pycelle simply knows too much. So, the answer to "why was Pycelle killed" is the same answer to the question "why aren't Varys or Littlefinger POVs."

On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 7:54 AM, The Sleeper said:

I don't know. In Cersei's head even Kevan was in cahoots with the Tyrells. Notwithstanding the fact that he coerced her in the walk of shame and was basically her jailor. She might think her enemies are turning on each other and be quite jubilant about it, rather than go on a psychotic break. After all consider what this means for Cersei. The Lannister guardsmen for one would obey her again. And I do think that Cersei is capable of playing the cowed woman and bide her time. 

A similar response could be seen from the Tyrell side. Kevan was an obstacle and Pycelle compromised Margaery. They would think that Cersei did them a favor.

These two do have common interests after all. It might not be the result Varys was expecting. Or it might be but in a different direction. Both sides would be all too happy to deal with the High Sparrow with force and push the Faith in Aegon's arms. 

She can have a psychotic break and still be jubilant at the same time.

In fact, once she purges King's Landing of Tyrell influence, she'll be so happy, her happiness will teeter on the edge of insanity. Because any sane person with an iota of intelligence will be able to recognize the fact that she has shot herself in the foot. Aegon and co. are coming and she just made herself weaker by offing the roses. 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The Lannister-Tyrell alliance is inherently unstable at this point, so all Varys needs is to manipulate that for the short term, while AeGriff takes Storm's End and makes his presence known to the lords of the realm. He doesn't need to maintain balance between Lannister and Tyrell, just undermine their already unstable relationship.

That is a very important point, and actually what Varys himself says in the Epilogue.

Many people draw the wrong conclusion that Varys wants Cersei back in power, but that's not his goal. He just wants to prevent the Lannisters and Tyrells from working together in this relatively amiable accord Mace and Kevan have reached - especially not against Aegon. That has to be prevented.

The goal is to increase tensions - perhaps to the point of open violence between the Lannisters/Tyrells - so that they don't work together in a powerful way and thus build a united front against Aegon.

[HallowedMarcus]

On 8/29/2018 at 9:17 AM, Euron Lannister said:

pycelle and swift came up with the idea to name kevan regent.

with pycelle dead the chances of just getting annother kevan-like lannister as new regent is much lower.

Cersey will most probably be the next Regent with Tyrell as Hand having more power and influence than her, at least, at the beginning.

[PrinceHenryris]

From everything I know about Pycelle, it's a miracle that somebody didn't kill him sooner.

[rotting sea cow]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dragonstone had its own maester, and there is no indication that Aegon has any birthmark or other thing that could be used to identify him as an adult nor any hint that Pycelle had seen such a mark while he was a babe. Not to mention that there is no reason to believe Aegon would subject himself to an examination by Pycelle. The man is working for his enemies.

What I'm saying is that Pycelle likely saw the body of prince Aegon and thus was able to confirm him as dead on front of a number of people, most of them also dead by now. There is no examination necessary, no need of special marks.

But this is right as @Bael's Bastardsaid, Aegon was probably born at Dragonstone and Pycelle didn't assists his birth. My mistake, but the point still stands.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

What I'm saying is that Pycelle likely saw the body of prince Aegon and thus was able to confirm him as dead on front of a number of people, most of them also dead by now. There is no examination necessary, no need of special marks.

If that were true, then Kevan would know. And he doesn't know. He reveals that he has doubts whether the boy is truly dead or not. He tells us that Tywin said it was Aegon and they bought it all. End of story.

You have to know a child that age pretty well to be able to recognize it when the head has been smashed in - and the person doing that wouldn't be the Grand Maester who may have seen the boy naked once or twice but servants who cared for him most of the day.

But if such servants were asked whether the dead child was Aegon or not - Tywin Lannister never told his brother Kevan or anybody else.