Why did Varys murder Pycelle?

[Josette DuPres]

To make trouble for the Lannisters.  Pycelle was loyal to Cersei.  

[Bael's Bastard]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is a very important point, and actually what Varys himself says in the Epilogue.

Many people draw the wrong conclusion that Varys wants Cersei back in power, but that's not his goal. He just wants to prevent the Lannisters and Tyrells from working together in this relatively amiable accord Mace and Kevan have reached - especially not against Aegon. That has to be prevented.

The goal is to increase tensions - perhaps to the point of open violence between the Lannisters/Tyrells - so that they don't work together in a powerful way and thus build a united front against Aegon.

Right, and with the goal for AeGriff to secure Storm's End, Varys does need to worry about balance the Lannisters and Tyrells for some long, drawn out conflict. It will be enough to distract them momentarily, to sew discord between them, and if they break out into open conflict, all the better. AeGriff and his men were only days away from making their way to Storm's End, and it shouldn't take them long to get there. As their plan is to take it by guile, they are either going to succeed or fail. But it shouldn't take long either way. So if they take it, we should be hearing about it pretty quickly, and that can only help increase the conflict between Cersei and the Tyrells.

[Bael's Bastard]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If that were true, then Kevan would know. And he doesn't know. He reveals that he has doubts whether the boy is truly dead or not. He tells us that Tywin said it was Aegon and they bought it all. End of story.

You have to know a child that age pretty well to be able to recognize it when the head has been smashed in - and the person doing that wouldn't be the Grand Maester who may have seen the boy naked once or twice but servants who cared for him most of the day.

But if such servants were asked whether the dead child was Aegon or not - Tywin Lannister never told his brother Kevan or anybody else.

 

And let's not forget that Tywin himself likely never saw baby Aegon, as he resigned prior to the Harrenhal Tourney that took place in 281 AC, and Aegon would have been conceived in early 281 AC at the earliest, and born in the last months of 281 AC, and likely on Dragonstone at that. He would be able to confirm that his men killed the baby they expected to be Aegon, but he wouldn't have known whether or not that baby was actually Aegon based on any personal knowledge of Aegon. Even though I firmly believe AeGriff is not Rhaegar's son, the waters are just muddy enough for Varys to work with.

[Bael's Bastard]

6 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

What I'm saying is that Pycelle likely saw the body of prince Aegon and thus was able to confirm him as dead on front of a number of people, most of them also dead by now. There is no examination necessary, no need of special marks.

But this is right as @Bael's Bastardsaid, Aegon was probably born at Dragonstone and Pycelle didn't assists his birth. My mistake, but the point still stands.

Pycelle would only have been capable of confirming that the body laid before Robert was dead, not the identity of that body, making him no different than Thoros of Myr or anyone else that was present.

Because of the condition of the child Gregor Clegane murdered, Pycelle would have been incapable of confirming that it was the same child Elia brought to King's Landing, let alone that the child Elia brought to King's Landing was Rhaegar's son Aegon.

And even if Pycelle had actually had some unique knowledge making him capable of confirming that the child was Rhaegar's son Aegon, Ser Gregor rendered any such knowledge useless.

[Euron Lannister]

12 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

Cersey will most probably be the next Regent with Tyrell as Hand having more power and influence than her, at least, at the beginning.

i don't see a reason for that, noone exept of qyburn and swift would want her. but anyways that would mean varys was successfull cersei is not like kevan she would destroy the lannister-tyrell alliance, while kevan restored it to some extant.

[Bernie Mac]

4 minutes ago, Euron Lannister said:

i don't see a reason for that, noone exept of qyburn and swift would want her. 

Tommen?

[HallowedMarcus]

32 minutes ago, Euron Lannister said:

i don't see a reason for that, noone exept of qyburn and swift would want her. but anyways that would mean varys was successfull cersei is not like kevan she would destroy the lannister-tyrell alliance, while kevan restored it to some extant.

For four reasons. First, she is the most important Lannister in KL. Two; she is the Queen mother. She couldn’t be Regent any longer because she was held by the Faith. After the walk of shame, Kevan kept power because she was humiliated before the public. There are cousins, nephews but no Tywin’s brothers to be Regent. Three, the Faith itself has now a strong grasp on her. They even have sisters of the Faith sleeping at the same bed with her to make sure she is under no sin and their control. Varys said Kevan made Tommen be like a defender of the Faith in facto, not just in name and title. So probably they (Faith) have increased level of influence in the KL and would prefer Cersey to be Regent to control her. She will probably play along as long as she has to. Obviously, she did not convert into a fanatic Faith follower, as her nephew did. Four; the Tyrells themselves would like to have Cersey as the Regent because it would please Tommen, increasing their influence on him and they would have a weakened, humiliated Cersey in power who is being checked by the Faith and therefore the Head of the Tyrells, as Hand, will have much more power then Regent Cersey would. That did not happen with Kevan. This will be felt by Cersey who will probably believe her brother and the Tyrels are together to take over.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Right, and with the goal for AeGriff to secure Storm's End, Varys does need to worry about balance the Lannisters and Tyrells for some long, drawn out conflict. It will be enough to distract them momentarily, to sew discord between them, and if they break out into open conflict, all the better. AeGriff and his men were only days away from making their way to Storm's End, and it shouldn't take them long to get there. As their plan is to take it by guile, they are either going to succeed or fail. But it shouldn't take long either way. So if they take it, we should be hearing about it pretty quickly, and that can only help increase the conflict between Cersei and the Tyrells.

The way he phrases it implies he doesn't want them to be able to make common cause against Aegon. Kevan did that, during the last council session. It is tedious dealing with Mace, and Kevan starts to understand Cersei, but they can make it work. They have a plan how and when to take the field against the Golden Company (after Cersei and Margaery's trials are dealt with).

The impact the double murder is going to have makes it very likely that things are not going to happen as planned by Kevan and Mace.

4 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

And let's not forget that Tywin himself likely never saw baby Aegon, as he resigned prior to the Harrenhal Tourney that took place in 281 AC, and Aegon would have been conceived in early 281 AC at the earliest, and born in the last months of 281 AC, and likely on Dragonstone at that. He would be able to confirm that his men killed the baby they expected to be Aegon, but he wouldn't have known whether or not that baby was actually Aegon based on any personal knowledge of Aegon. Even though I firmly believe AeGriff is not Rhaegar's son, the waters are just muddy enough for Varys to work with.

The more crucial aspect here is that everybody was apparently so horrified by the manner the royal children were killed that this was all hushed up. Nobody would have asked anybody to identify the Prince Aegon, nor would have anybody been allowed to actually examine the corpses. Tywin, Lorch, Gregor, and the men with them when they took Maegor's were likely the only people seeing the children before Tywin had them wrapped into crimson cloaks - and he would have moved them only out of whatever room in Maegor's he kept them and into the throne room after Robert had finally arrived. And then they would have quickly cremated the remains.

There is no reason to assume anybody ever thought about the possibility that Aegon might not be Aegon or that the children should be examined by anybody who knew them closely.

[John Suburbs]

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is a very important point, and actually what Varys himself says in the Epilogue.

Many people draw the wrong conclusion that Varys wants Cersei back in power, but that's not his goal. He just wants to prevent the Lannisters and Tyrells from working together in this relatively amiable accord Mace and Kevan have reached - especially not against Aegon. That has to be prevented.

The goal is to increase tensions - perhaps to the point of open violence between the Lannisters/Tyrells - so that they don't work together in a powerful way and thus build a united front against Aegon.

And I think this gets us to the primary reason why Pycelle was killed as well: with Tywin gone, his loyalty is now to Kevan, and Pycelle has the sense to realize that they need the Tyrells in order to remain in power. Even if he doesn't recognize the fighting in the Stormlands for the invasion force that it is, he will soon and will advise Cersei of this fact. Cersie may or may not heed his advice, but with him gone he won't be a voice of reason for an increasingly unstable and isolated queen.

[Euron Lannister]

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tommen?

it seems like the small council picks the regent, not the boyking

3 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

Two; she is the Queen mother.

that doesn't mean she automatically will get the position. especially after she has proven she is unfit for it

3 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

Three, the Faith

the have a strn grasp on her, but the fiath's power comes from the following people, they can't support someone who is against everything they stand for without loosing the public support.

3 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

Four; the Tyrells

they would like to throw her iton blackwater bay.

she is the reason for the almost broken alliance and if she becomes regent she would likely throw mace and randyl tarly out of the small council. and name some idiots again as she did before.

their best option to get influence over tommen is margaery, cersei is the exact opposite, she would lower their influence.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 4:58 AM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I was just thinking about this the other day, and I think I may have missed something obvious, so please indulge me.

Varys spells out his motives for killing Kevan quite clearly, and they make sense – it’s to sow discord between the Tyrells and Cersei, and to remove a capable and consensus-building leader. But why did he bother to kill Pycelle too? While Pycelle is undoubtedly useful to the Lannisters, I don’t really see an obvious reason to killing him. It’s not like he’s capable of stepping into Kevan’s shoes, and he would most likely just file in line behind Cersei or the Tyrells and do what he’s told.

Ideas that have run through my mind have been from the mundane – he was a Lannister loyalist who Varys saw an opportunity to just get rid of, for example; to vague conspiracy theories – he had dangerous information from the Aerys II years that might threaten Varys or help expose fAegon.

Does anyone have an opinion on this matter?

Pycelle was a Lannister stooge . While I doubt Tyrion did not have any problems with Kevan , from the incident in ACOK we know that Pycelle had issues with Tyrion . What a perfect way to feed Cercei's paranoia .

[Legitimate_Bastard]

I think Varys knew Cersei would raise Qyburn to a much more important position and take other desperate measures - which would in turn de-legitimize her in the eyes of noble and smallfolk alike.