Why did Varys murder Pycelle?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 minute ago, The Sleeper said:

It might not be the result Varys was expecting. Or it might be but in a different direction. Both sides would be all too happy to deal with the High Sparrow with force and push the Faith in Aegon's arms. 

That's a fair point, but any alliance between them at this stage would be of short duration. Cersei caused the entire mess to begin with and the Tyrells just wouldn't trust her. And Cersei's too unstable not to strike at them at some point.

 

[Ellard Stark]

The fact that no one tried to kill Pycelle for so long is amazing

[Euron Lannister]

pycelle and swift came up with the idea to name kevan regent.

with pycelle dead the chances of just getting annother kevan-like lannister as new regent is much lower.

[The Sleeper]

21 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That's a fair point, but any alliance between them at this stage would be of short duration. Cersei caused the entire mess to begin with and the Tyrells just wouldn't trust her. And Cersei's too unstable not to strike at them at some point.

 

That goes without saying. I can't help but feel that with Kevan gone Cersei and the Tyrells will tolerate each other temporarily, because both sides were threatened more by Kevan than by each other.

The irony is that the Faith, the Tyrells and Cersei all need Tommen on the throne. On top of that we are awaiting the arrival of the Sand snakes. 

I don't know. Kevan's death felt a bit like it came out of nowhere. I suppose it has been justified by the plot, but with it being in the epilogue it seems to just hang in there without rhyme or reason. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Just now, The Sleeper said:

both sides were threatened more by Kevan than by each other.

I don't know about that. The Tyrells would have had a proper level of respect for Kevan, but probably recognised he was a sane working partner. While the Tyrells were happy to jostle for position, they had no interest in all out factional war that Cersei launched. They would have known that tearing the alliance apart was madness. In that sense, Cersei is more of a threat, even if she's less capable.

2 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

I suppose it has been justified by the plot, but with it being in the epilogue it seems to just hang in there without rhyme or reason. 

I think it was one of those plot developments that catalyses things. The story moves forward if the Lannister and Tyrell hegemony collapses.

[The Sleeper]

3 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I don't know about that. The Tyrells would have had a proper level of respect for Kevan, but probably recognised he was a sane working partner. While the Tyrells were happy to jostle for position, they had no interest in all out factional war that Cersei launched. They would have known that tearing the alliance apart was madness. In that sense, Cersei is more of a threat, even if she's less capable.

If the Tyrells had entered the alliance in good faith they might want a sane working partner. I don't think that applies to any of the Tyrells, if for different reasons. For Mace, it seems that he understands good faith as him getting anything he wants, which mostly consists of assigning all offices to relatives of his. Cersei might have stepped over the line, but Mace at least might consider her cowed enough. Besides you don't know what song Cersei is going to sing. After all she never made an accusation herself and might blame everything on machinations of others. Tena did take a hike and had a foot in both camps. She'd make a marvelous scape goat. It would also be a way to discredit her in case somebody talks to her. Margaery wouldn't believe Cersei, but Mace might.

 

12 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I think it was one of those plot developments that catalyses things. The story moves forward if the Lannister and Tyrell hegemony collapses.

I got that. It feels kind of redundant, after all Kevan was not a miracle worker and I doubt even Bloodraven could have cleared this mess.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

5 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

I got that. It feels kind of redundant, after all Kevan was not a miracle worker and I doubt even Bloodraven could have cleared this mess.

Sure. Part of it is that the character was pretty much now redundant. If he was allowed to live, then he'd constantly have to be factored into every power play.

[Bael's Bastard]

4 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I was just thinking about this the other day, and I think I may have missed something obvious, so please indulge me.

Varys spells out his motives for killing Kevan quite clearly, and they make sense – it’s to sow discord between the Tyrells and Cersei, and to remove a capable and consensus-building leader. But why did he bother to kill Pycelle too? While Pycelle is undoubtedly useful to the Lannisters, I don’t really see an obvious reason to killing him. It’s not like he’s capable of stepping into Kevan’s shoes, and he would most likely just file in line behind Cersei or the Tyrells and do what he’s told.

Ideas that have run through my mind have been from the mundane – he was a Lannister loyalist who Varys saw an opportunity to just get rid of, for example; to vague conspiracy theories – he had dangerous information from the Aerys II years that might threaten Varys or help expose fAegon.

Does anyone have an opinion on this matter?

I am guessing it is for the same reason that Lord Tywin restored Pycelle as Grand Maester in ASOS, because the Citadel was on the verge of sending Lord Mace Tyrell's uncle Gormon Tyrell to replace him as Grand Maester.

"Well, it would have been more in keeping with tradition." The eunuch tittered. "Thankfully, wiser heads prevailed, and the Conclave accepted the fact of Pycelle's dismissal and set about choosing his successor. After giving due consideration to Maester Turquin the cordwainer's son and Maester Erreck the hedge knight's bastard, and thereby demonstrating to their own satisfaction that ability counts for more than birth in their order, the Conclave was on the verge of sending us Maester Gormon, a Tyrell of Highgarden. When I told your lord father, he acted at once." (ASOS: Tyrion II)

Cersei will already assume that the Tyrells were responsible for the murder of Kevan and Pycelle, and now in addition to Mace already being Hand of the King, Mace's uncle will now likely be Grand Maester.

The Tyrells and their bannermen will hold four spots on Tommen's Small Council, and of the other three, Jaime is off in the Riverlands, and Harys Swyft is off to Braavos.

[Lord Varys]

There is a number of possible reasons there - the first one is quite obvious:

Varys needed a ploy to get Kevan out of Maegor's Holdfast and at a place where he could kill him. Pycelle's is ideal for that, and it would be difficult to do that with a living Pycelle there.

The idea that Pycelle knows stuff about Aegon doesn't convince me - Pycelle hears about Aegon during the council session and he doesn't mention anything indicating that he definitely knows the boy is dead.

The idea that some doddering old fool like Pycelle could somehow demand or force Prince Aegon to subject his royal person to an examination done by Pycelle when there is no reason to see him as an impartial and unbiased man only looking to discover 'the truth' is also not very convincing.

If Varys has a reason to kill Pycelle it could be resolve old issues, to silence a man who might know too much about Varys' deeds back in the days of Aerys II. And, of course, to finally punish the man who is responsible for the Sack and thus, indirectly, also for the death of King Aerys and the murder of Elia and Princess Rhaenys (and Prince Aegon, if Varys could not actually save him).

On the political level it also helps to shift the power balance further from Lannister to Tyrell, helps to fuel Cersei's paranoia and ensure that they are incapable of reaching an understanding, much less to work together. Even if they don't actually attack each other, the public appearance that the Western Alliance is effectively broken will give a great push to all the Targaryen loyalists not knowing yet whether they want to join Aegon or sit that one out.

[Leo of House Cartel]

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

Good observation about the little birds' height.

The problem with the frame job now that I think about it is that neither Mace nor Cersei are likely to be too broken up about either of the dead. Sure they might use it as ammunition against each other, but ultimately it is rather convenient for both of them. 

Yeah, I can't see Mace or Cersei being particularly saddened by the deaths of Pycelle or Kevan. The Queen Regent might feel a brief tinge of distress through some form of nostalgia related to Kevan and her father, but I doubt she will be her longing for her uncle the way she does for Joff. 

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

True, but that's what's clever about it. Both have a motive, and know they did not do it, so will suspect the other. As to the frame job, it will further play to Cersei's wacko conspiracy theory that the Tyrells were teamed up with Tyrion (which Varys originally set on course with the Gardner coin in the gaoler's bedroom.

Indeed, it will be interesting to see how the Roses might scramble to turn the situation to their advantage.

Not only that, but Cersei will also have extra paranoia coming her way when the Dornish arrive, complete with a scarred up Myrcella.

Cersei hasn't really had to deal with the Dornish too much, considering Tywin was still in charge when Oberyn was on the Small Council, so she will be bound to distrust Lady Nym and co when they turn up with her daughter having a somewhat Tyrion -esque facial wound.

[Megorova]

Probably even at the time of Aerys' reign, Pycelle was their family doctor, at the Red Keep. While, probably, Marwyn was Rhaegar and Elia's maester at Dragonstone. Elia's Aegon was born in King's Landing, so most likely, Pycelle was among those maesters, that were assisting during Elia's childbirth, and took care of her baby, when he was born. So Pycelle may know some sort of distinctive feature, that real Aegon had (for example birth mark, or two-colored eyes, like Shiera Seastar's, or something like that), but fAegon doesn't have it. So Pycelle may identify him as an imposter. Marwyn was serving as maester at Dragonstone. Then, during Robert's Rebellion, when Rhaegar has returned to King's Landing from the south (this is when Marwyn has secretly visited King's Landing, and had an opportunity to see both of Rhaegar's children. And because Pycelle was always a creepy fellow, Rhaegar didn't trusted him with his children's health. So even though there were other maesters at Red Keep, including Pycelle, Rhaegar still asked Marwyn to examine little Aegon, to be sure, that the child is healthy. That's when Marwyn saw on Aegon something, with which he is able now to identify him), he has sent Marwyn to the Tower of Joy, to help Lyanna, when she will be giving birth to her child. Then Rhaegar died, Lyanna died. And Marwyn, who thought, that Rhaegar was the promised Prince, left Westeros, and went to Essos, where he was staying for 8 years, styding magic from Quaithe/Shiera Seastar, and giving lessons in medicine to Mirri Maz Duur.

And while Marwyn was away, people at (Targaryen) Baratheon-Lannister court, totally forgot about his existence. It's not like people usually pay much attention to someone as insignificant as maesters. Maesters serve, that's their purpose. They are like furniture - if they are there, then they are used, if they aren't present, then they are replaced, and new maester keeps serving, same as the one before him. So when Marwyn returned to 7K, he went back to Citadel, because his place at Dragonstone was taken over by maester Cressen. So Varys doesn't know about Marwyn. Marwyn was one of maesters at Dragonstone, and Varys was mostly concentrating his attention on Aerys' royal court at Red Keep. So it's likely, that him and Marwyn never met, and Varys never even heard about Marwyn. Varys has arrived to Westeros in 278, and Marwyn has departed to Dorne, and from there to Essos, in 283. It's likely, that in those five years, Varys' Birds Network was still in the process of installation, so he was mostly gathering information about the most important people, and maesters weren't on the top of his list. So Marwyn has slipped thru Varys' web, and Varys is unaware, that Marwyn is also able to identify fAegon as a fake Prince. Thus he killed only Pycelle. Or something like that

[Bael's Bastard]

5 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Elia's Aegon was born in King's Landing

Where is it ever claimed or implied that Aegon was born in King's Landing? He was on Dragonstone with Elia at the start of 282 AC, which couldn't have been long after he was born, and there is no indication he was born elsewhere then moved. After that, the earliest implication that Elia was in King's Landing was after the Battle of the Bells and before the Battle of the Trident in 283 AC, when Aerys reminded Lewyn he held her.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

Varys wants to isolate Cersei so he can further manipulate the situation. Pycelle is an old hand and loyal to the bone. Without him, all Cersei has left to her is Qyburn and his pet Ser Robert Strong. 

By removing Kevan and Pycelle, Varys has robbed Cersei of any chance of receiving good counsel. It's as simple as that for me.  

[John Suburbs]

Pycell's death also means that the Citadel will appoint a new Grand Maester, and Varys is not without influence on the Conclave...

[Megorova]

7 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Where is it ever claimed or implied that Aegon was born in King's Landing? He was on Dragonstone with Elia at the start of 282 AC, which couldn't have been long after he was born, and there is no indication he was born elsewhere then moved. After that, the earliest implication that Elia was in King's Landing was after the Battle of the Bells and before the Battle of the Trident in 283 AC, when Aerys reminded Lewyn he held her.

Yes, sorry, I constantly confuse, whether he was born or conceived at King's Landing. He was born on Dragonstone, same as Rhaenys. 6+ months after Rhaenys' birth, Elia and Rhaegar went to King's Landing to present their daughter to royal court. While they were staying there, Aegon was conceived on the night, when comet was seen above King's Landing. But later they returned to Dragonstone. So both maesters, Marwyn and Pycelle, had an opportunity to treat Rhaegar's children (Marwyn at Dragonstone, and Pycelle later, when Rhaegar's family was taken as hostages by Aerys), and thus knew their distinctive features.

[Bael's Bastard]

No need for convoluted theories.

Tywin restored Pycelle as Grand Maester after Varys informed him that the Citadel was on the verge of sending Mace's uncle Gormon Tyrell to become Grand Maester.

We also know from AFFC (Cercei II) and ADWD (Epilogue) that Mace wanted his other uncle Garth the Gross to serve on the Small Council as Master of Coin/Lord Treasurer.

If something were to happen to Harys while in Braavos, the Small Council could soon be looking at three Tyrells, a Tarley, and a Redwyne, with only Jaime (off in the Riverlands) and Qyburn other than that.

Varys explicitly tells Kevan that Cersei will blame the Tyrells for his murder, which is consistent with everything we know of Cersei's thoughts on the Tyrells.

Pycelle's death simply paves the way for more Tyrells to take more positions of power as "Doubt, division, and mistrust" eat the very ground beneath Tommen.

[Bael's Bastard]

23 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Pycell's death also means that the Citadel will appoint a new Grand Maester

And we have good reason to think that the Citadel means to appoint Mace Tyrell's uncle Gormon as Grand Maester:

"Well, it would have been more in keeping with tradition." The eunuch tittered. "Thankfully, wiser heads prevailed, and the Conclave accepted the fact of Pycelle's dismissal and set about choosing his successor. After giving due consideration to Maester Turquin the cordwainer's son and Maester Erreck the hedge knight's bastard, and thereby demonstrating to their own satisfaction that ability counts for more than birth in their order, the Conclave was on the verge of sending us Maester Gormon, a Tyrell of Highgarden. When I told your lord father, he acted at once." (ASOS: Tyrion II)

[Dorian Martell's son]

9 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Does anyone have an opinion on this matter?

Possible motivations include but are not limited to: 
Pycelle delivered Aegon and would know of any identifying marks on his body
Pycelle  is a very smart lannister loyalist with managerial skills
Pycelle Testified against Marg
Pycelle  was complicit in Jon Arryn's death 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

8 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I believe that Olyvar's, Perwyn's and Roslin's mother was a Rosby and thus Perwyn might have a claim as the eldest. I don't recall Rosby's ward being of his blood. 

According to Falyse, Rosby should go to Stokeworth and she calls the ward "ill-born wretch" which might mean that he could be a bastard, I guess?

Quote

"Uncomfortable," complained Falyse. "It rained most of the day. We thought to spend the night at Rosby, but that young ward of Lord Gyles refused us hospitality." She sniffed. "Mark my word, when Gyles dies that ill-born wretch will make off with his gold. He may even try and claim the lands and lordship, though by rights Rosby should come to us when Gyles passes. My lady mother was aunt to his second wife, third cousin to Gyles himself." (Cersei V, AFFC 24) 

About Varys killing Pycelle. Pycelle is the one who urged Aerys to open his gates to Tywin. He let Jon Arryn die to protect Cersei's secret. He let Ned die to protect Cersei's secret to protect House Lannister's interest. Everything he did, he did for House Lannister.

Quote

"All I did, I did for House Lannister." A sheen of sweat covered the broad done of the old man's brow, and wisps of white hair clung to his wrinkled skin. "Always . . . for years . . . your lord father, ask him, I was ever his true servant . . . 'twas I who bid Aerys open his gates . . ."
That took Tyrion by surprise. He had been no more than an ugly boy at Casterly Rock when the city fell. "So the Sack of King's Landing was your work as well?"
"For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king . . . I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong and Lord Eddard moved too swiftly . . ."
"How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me . . . King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?" He knew where it ended. (Tyrion VI, ACoK 25)

I think the explanation is pretty simple and spelled out. And Varys may know even more on what Pycelle did over the years. Pycelle broke is oath. A maester is supposed to serve a castle, but he served House Lannister instead. Why would Varys want that loose end flapping in the wind like that?

[The Sleeper]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

According to Falyse, Rosby should go to Stokeworth and she calls the ward "ill-born wretch" which might mean that he could be a bastard, I guess?

About Varys killing Pycelle. Pycelle is the one who urged Aerys to open his gates to Tywin. He let Jon Arryn die to protect Cersei's secret. He let Ned die to protect Cersei's secret to protect House Lannister's interest. Everything he did, he did for House Lannister.

I think the explanation is pretty simple and spelled out. And Varys may know even more on what Pycelle did over the years. Pycelle broke is oath. A maester is supposed to serve a castle, but he served House Lannister instead. Why would Varys want that loose end flapping in the wind like that?

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

One possible reason could be that he could exonerate Margaery by retracting his testimony about the moon tea, thus leaving doubts and driving a wedge between the Throne and the Tyrells.

In another thread it was suggested that Varys is a Targaryen loyalist. Opportunity and revenge would be a motive then. 

Another aspect could be that Pycelle could deny Aegon's purported origin. Being a Lannister man and actually present in the Sack, he could declare Aegon as an impostor, truthfully or not and his opinion would carry weight. 

Frankly, I can't imagine anyone who interacted with Pycelle for over two decades, not think about killing him at one point or another. 

Any or all of the above. 

Ill-born could refer to bastardy but it could be a generic curse.