Can anyone PROVE that Varys is a eunuch?

[Faera]

I suppose there isn't any physical proof because we've never had any passage where another male character, say, caught a glimpse of him in a public bath and can confirm that he is in fact a eunuch. The reason I don't think he's lying about that is because the matter with which his parts were burned is clearly a horrific and painful memory of his backstory, how he was forced to sell what parts of him remained before he realised he could sell secrets and the mystery of the ritual the sorcerer performed using his manhood...

Plus, I really don't see any narrative merit for it being revealed later down the line that Varys does, in fact, still have his penis. 

[Rufus Snow]

2 minutes ago, Faera said:

Plus, I really don't see any narrative merit for it being revealed later down the line that Varys does, in fact, still have his penis. 

It's not that he still has one - it's that 'he' never had one

[Lollygag]

3 hours ago, Faera said:

I suppose there isn't any physical proof because we've never had any passage where another male character, say, caught a glimpse of him in a public bath and can confirm that he is in fact a eunuch. The reason I don't think he's lying about that is because the matter with which his parts were burned is clearly a horrific and painful memory of his backstory, how he was forced to sell what parts of him remained before he realised he could sell secrets and the mystery of the ritual the sorcerer performed using his manhood...

Plus, I really don't see any narrative merit for it being revealed later down the line that Varys does, in fact, still have his penis. 

The story definitely rang true for me. But Varys is a mummer. Unless someone can explain how Varys can be telling the truth about hating all magic so severely yet supporting the magical Targs who are about dragons, pyromancers, Aerys' pyromancer hand, the stuff at Summerhall which had to have been magical, then Varys' single story to Tyrion doesn't hold against the bulk of Varys' actions throughout the series.

ACOK Tyrion X

All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it. If Lord Stannis is one such, I mean to see him dead."

 

I also don't see a narrative reason for Varys not being a eunuch, but the voice changes and other contradictions like the magic and Illyrio forgetting Varys' hometown just don't add up.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I hadn't really thought of the well as his HQ, but yes, it would work. I thought it was pretty clear his little bare cell was there just for those times he wanted to be found...

Most definitely. The cell there is nothing but a front. Which is also the reason why Jaime didn't surprise him there - he wanted to be caught, he wanted to be 'forced' to save Tyrion.

7 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I haven't come to any conclusion yet - he may have gone totally to ground, or he may have still been fiddling in affairs in whatever disguise suited the purpose. He clearly still had a finger on the pulse because he knew when to come out to snuff out Pycelle and Kevan, and I imagine half the 'serving boys' and 'kitchen slatterns' in the Red Keep were little birds. However, despite Qyburn's claims that some of Varys' network had come over to him, it seems none of them gave up Varys' secret hidey-hole to the new MoW.

Qyburn gets information from the freelancer informers and agents that work for the Iron Throne - people that sell information they have to the Crown - but there is no indication that he has access to Varys' actual little birds. The way the little birds are described - as pale creatures that never seem to be see the light of day - makes it also very unlikely that many of the core troop work in the outside.

The job of the little birds is to sit at the listening posts in the secret tunnels Maegor built into the Red Keep - places like the one Tyrion passes on his way to Shae and Tywin - where you can overhear everything that is spoken in the adjacent room. To make use of this system in the best manner Varys (or any other Master of Whisperers) would have to have a secret listener at all those posts 24/7.

We can only guess whether this was the case in the eras before Varys - one imagines that Tyanna, Larys Strong, and Bloodraven did make use of those tunnels to a considerable degree, and even Aegon V seems to have done so, considering that Olenna remembers the Red Keep had its spiders even in her youth.

But Varys would be the one using it most efficiently with his little bird system.

Whether those 'other children' people see to run around in the castle are little birds, too, is difficult to say. The one delivering the message to Kevan and the one opening Pycelle's door seem to have been birds, raising the interesting question whether all of them have lost their tongues. A horde of mute children in the castle should cause some attention, not to mention that it would be difficult for such children to deliver messages when dealing with men who cannot read.

7 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Shae's dead - no-one else had her skill at seeing thorugh his disguises that we've seen

Oh, the idea was that George would have given us readers a subtle clue if some person showing up in the background in AFfC was supposed to be Varys. But there are no such clues to be found - at least not until that point.

7 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

As far as I'm concerned, it stays on the table until it's ruled out - and it is perfectly compatible with fake stubble, sweat and false smiles.

Well, it is a very slim possibility. But we know how he describes a guy who is actually a woman disguising herself as a man, and there are no such indications in Varys' case. Not to mention that it would cheapen the story of his castration as well as take the most famous eunuch off the table.

7 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Yes, I also doubted if Jaime and his people would ever find all the tunnels, but the wildfire thing hadn't occurred to me before

This wildfire idea sounds incredibly far-fetched and unfounded to me considering that we do know that wildfire gets more and more volatile over the years. Aerys' 'fruits' would be a constant danger for Varys and his little birds as well as the castle and the throne Aegon is supposed to claim. Why on earth would Varys keep them?

[Rufus Snow]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, it is a very slim possibility. But we know how he describes a guy who is actually a woman disguising herself as a man, and there are no such indications in Varys' case. Not to mention that it would cheapen the story of his castration as well as take the most famous eunuch off the table.

well, I'm afraid I missed the other example 'til someone pointed out the backward name and all....

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Why on earth would Varys keep them?

Good question - the only thing that would make any sense is a total defeat suicide option... which I find hard to believe, because i get the feeling that Varys could be pushed back 99 times, he'd still come back 100 times....

[Faera]

20 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

It's not that he still has one - it's that 'he' never had one

Aha, I see no reason to believe that Varys is a woman. 

17 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I also don't see a narrative reason for Varys not being a eunuch, but the voice changes and other contradictions like the magic and Illyrio forgetting Varys' hometown just don't add up.

Perhaps but that simply plays into the idea that Varys and Illyrio have both come up with cover stories. I really cannot think of a single moment where I thought for a brief moment where the idea occurred to me that Varys might either still be in tact or a woman.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

On 8/29/2018 at 3:02 PM, Rufus Snow said:

Ok, this may well be total tinpot crack-foil, but it begins with a humourous comment from another poster in another thread. It left me with the question: is there anything in the text other than Varys' own words that can be used to either prove or disprove his status as a eunuch? More specifically, is it possible he is actually a woman and lying about his backstory?

I don't recall, and haven't yet found, anything regarding this topic which doesn't end up back with 'because Varys said so.' What I'm looking for is any trace of independent corroboration that can entirely dispel this tinpot crack-foil. As far as I'm aware, no-one has ever seen Varys disrobed, or bedded him. There's no maester who claims to have treated him.

To be clear, I'm looking for evidence in the texts. Is there something I've overlooked, or is this still a twist the George could possibly pull on us?

I looked and can find nothing!

[Lollygag]

If Varys lied about how he was cut and about his professed hatred of magic which is inconsistent with his backing of the magical Targs, then he should have a reason for telling the lie.

Here’s one possible reason. Cortnay Penrose has been found dead under mysterious circumstances and Stannis will now march against KL. Varys wouldn’t want Stannis as King because he’s a much more formidable opponent for Aegon. To take on Stannis properly, Tyrion would have to believe that some of Stannis’ weapons are magical.

Varys shows up suddenly late at night at Shae’s manse to announce that Storm’s End has fallen, thus this is important to Varys. Varys goes over the mysterious circumstances around Penrose’s death with Tyrion trying to rationalize an explanation. When Tyrion refuses to believe supernatural explanations, it’s only then that Varys offers his “tale” as Tyrion calls it.

ACOK Tyrion X

"Then the killer entered earlier and hid under the bed," Tyrion suggested, "or he climbed down from the roof on a rope. Perhaps the guards are lying. Who's to say they did not do the thing themselves?"

"Doubtless you are right, my lord."

His smug tone said otherwise. "But you do not think so? How was it done, then?"

For a long moment Varys said nothing. The only sound was the stately clack of horseshoes on cobbles. Finally the eunuch cleared his throat. "My lord, do you believe in the old powers?"

"Magic, you mean?" Tyrion said impatiently. "Bloodspells, curses, shapeshifting, those sorts of things?" He snorted. "Do you mean to suggest that Ser Cortnay was magicked to his death?"

"Ser Cortnay had challenged Lord Stannis to single combat on the morning he died. I ask you, is this the act of a man lost to despair? Then there is the matter of Lord Renly's mysterious and most fortuitous murder, even as his battle lines were forming up to sweep his brother from the field." The eunuch paused a moment. "My lord, you once asked me how it was that I was cut."

"I recall," said Tyrion. "You did not want to talk of it."

"Nor do I, but . . ." This pause was longer than the one before, and when Varys spoke again his voice was different somehow. "I was an orphan boy apprenticed to a traveling folly. Our master owned a fat little cog and we sailed up and down the narrow sea performing in all the Free Cities and from time to time in Oldtown and King's Landing.

 

 

Varys only offers this tale because he needs Tyrion to believe in magic—and fear it—to most effectively be able to fight Stannis. But Tyrion doesn’t believe it and Varys makes excuses to allow Tyrion the disbelief. Varys is frustrated.

 

When he was done, they rode in silence for a time. Finally Tyrion said, "A harrowing tale. I'm sorry."

The eunuch sighed. "You are sorry, but you do not believe me. No, my lord, no need to apologize. I was drugged and in pain and it was a very long time ago and far across the sea. No doubt I dreamed that voice. I've told myself as much a thousand times."

"I believe in steel swords, gold coins, and men's wits," said Tyrion. "And I believe there once were dragons. I've seen their skulls, after all."

 

 

Varys and Tyrion then go through their options to fight Stannis. Dorne will not help. Tywin hasn’t won the Red Fork yet and Rowan and Oakheart may block him from KL. Littlefinger is MIA (I think Varys and LF are working together to keep Stannis away from KL as this suits neither of them and Varys is covering for him, but that’s another topic). And then we see why it’s so important to Varys that Tyrion believe Stannis has more than swords as weapons:

Tyrion threw back his head and laughed.

Varys reined up, nonplussed. "My lord?"

"Don't you see the jest, Lord Varys?" Tyrion waved a hand at the shuttered windows, at all the sleeping city. "Storm's End is fallen and Stannis is coming with fire and steel and the gods alone know what dark powers, and the good folk don't have Jaime to protect them, nor Robert nor Renly nor Rhaegar nor their precious Knight of Flowers. Only me, the one they hate." He laughed again. "The dwarf, the evil counselor, the twisted little monkey demon. I'm all that stands between them and chaos."

 

[Rufus Snow]

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

If Varys lied about how he was cut and about his professed hatred of magic which is inconsistent with his backing of the magical Targs, then he should have a reason for telling the lie.

Yes, thanks for that

I hadn't really stopped to consider the timing for Varys telling the tale, and I think you have a good point there - the timing was very relevant.