aryagonnakill#2 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: Lysa wasn’t that fertile after Hoster aborted her child. Five miscarriages/stillbirths, and a single mentally and physically unstable boy. Jon Aryn seems to have been infertile from the start, I don't think we can blame Lysa for the miscarriages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 4 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: Jon Aryn seems to have been infertile from the start, I don't think we can blame Lysa for the miscarriages. He had a son, so I doubt he's infertile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 As other's have pointed out, Hoster Tully wouldn't have been able to send the primary (and only) heir to a noble house, however small and uninfluential, to the Wall without involving that noble's liege lord. If the issue had become really heated, the Crown would've been asked to step in and adjudicate the matter, something highly public and most unwanted by the Tullys. In that society it would be doubtful that anyone would believe that Lysa took the initiative, even if she admitted as such, but the gossip it generated would be quite damaging to a family's image. Also, it gave Hoster Tully a trump card in his back pocket when it came to dealing with the Arryns. I'm reasonably sure that "Your vassal's son soiled my daughter after I opened my gates to him and offered my hospitality and I kept it quiet," came up in the negotiations as to what was going to be the price of Tully loyalty during Robert's Rebellion. So, not only does Hoster get himself out of a jam with his now "questionable" daughter, he manages to get another one of his offspring into a powerful family. Sort of makes Walder Frey look like an amateur doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 14 minutes ago, Trefayne said: Also, it gave Hoster Tully a trump card in his back pocket when it came to dealing with the Arryns. I'm reasonably sure that "Your vassal's son soiled my daughter after I opened my gates to him and offered my hospitality and I kept it quiet," came up in the negotiations as to what was going to be the price of Tully loyalty during Robert's Rebellion. I doubt Hoster ever told Jon it was Littlefinger who did it, otherwise Jon never would have advanced his career, particularly at Lysa's request. Another possibility, is that as well as not being able to send him to the Wall, and not wanting to expose the family to embarrassment, Hoster maybe still had some affection for the little sod. He did raise him after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: I doubt Hoster ever told Jon it was Littlefinger who did it, otherwise Jon never would have advanced his career, particularly at Lysa's request. Another possibility, is that as well as not being able to send him to the Wall, and not wanting to expose the family to embarrassment, Hoster maybe still had some affection for the little sod. He did raise him after all. Jon Arryn might have if Lysa threatened to expose the secret and embarrass the Arryn name. Remember, Lysa was still in love with LF, and she wasn't the most stable person to be betting on that she'd keep her mouth shut. Jon Arryn may have been in a bit of a bind on that one. We don't get much on Hoster Tully, but I don't remember him coming off as the sentimental type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted August 30, 2018 Author Share Posted August 30, 2018 33 minutes ago, Trefayne said: Also, it gave Hoster Tully a trump card in his back pocket when it came to dealing with the Arryns. I'm reasonably sure that "Your vassal's son soiled my daughter after I opened my gates to him and offered my hospitality and I kept it quiet," came up in the negotiations as to what was going to be the price of Tully loyalty during Robert's Rebellion. So, not only does Hoster get himself out of a jam with his now "questionable" daughter, he manages to get another one of his offspring into a powerful family. Sort of makes Walder Frey look like an amateur doesn't it? I guess that Walder Frey was more patient than Hoster and was willing to wait; Hoster wouldn't have given anything to Ned and Jon if they didn't marry his daughters. And giving Lysa to a man who wouldn't emotionally provide for her was problematic. What harm could there be in giving her to Littlefinger? Tywin Lannister's brother Kevan married the daughter of a knight and Littlefinger was a lord. Lord of sheep dung, but still a Lord. 5 minutes ago, Trefayne said: Jon Arryn might have if Lysa threatened to expose the secret and embarrass the Arryn name. Remember, Lysa was still in love with LF, and she wasn't the most stable person to be betting on that she'd keep her mouth shut. Jon Arryn may have been in a bit of a bind on that one. We don't get much on Hoster Tully, but I don't remember him coming off as the sentimental type. Hoster struck me as a bit of an jerk really, given how he acted toward Lysa. He almost killed Lysa with the moon tea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Trefayne said: Jon Arryn might have if Lysa threatened to expose the secret and embarrass the Arryn name. Remember, Lysa was still in love with LF, and she wasn't the most stable person to be betting on that she'd keep her mouth shut. Jon Arryn may have been in a bit of a bind on that one. That seems unlikely to me. We don't know him well enough to know exactly how Jon would have reacted in being blackmailed like that, but I very much doubt he would have been cowed into just doing what Lysa said. He doesn't strike me as the type. 3 minutes ago, Trefayne said: We don't get much on Hoster Tully, but I don't remember him coming off as the sentimental type. Hoster doesn't seem like a softy, but with the exception of Lysa (understandably), his kids seem to love him well enough. From his death bed rants, it appears he tried to comfort Lysa after his appalling act, which seems to suggest at least some feelings. Personally I think Hoster gets a bit of a bad time on this forum, he seems like a standard medieval patriarch, not the ice cold type like Tywin. I'm not going to make a "Hoster loved Peytr" position the hill I choose to die on though, it was just an idle thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Tywin Lannister's brother Kevan married the daughter of a knight and Littlefinger was a lord. Lord of sheep dung, but still a Lord. An old and noble line of knights though. Kevan shuddered at the thought of marrying his son to Jayne Westerling because her grandmother was a merchant. Littlefinger's grandfather was a sellsword from Braavos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted August 30, 2018 Author Share Posted August 30, 2018 12 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: Personally I think Hoster gets a bit of a bad time on this forum, he seems like a standard medieval patriarch, not the ice cold type like Tywin. I think Hoster gets a bad rap on the forum because of his unintentional creation of Littlefinger and his treatment of Lysa gave Littlefinger a tool to manipulate and cause chaos in Westeros. Not thinking Littlefinger was worthy of Catelyn and giving moon tea to Lysa was just the first part of the snowball effect that led to the death of Jon Arryn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 14 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: I guess that Walder Frey was more patient than Hoster and was willing to wait; Hoster wouldn't have given anything to Ned and Jon if they didn't marry his daughters. And giving Lysa to a man who wouldn't emotionally provide for her was problematic. What harm could there be in giving her to Littlefinger? Tywin Lannister's brother Kevan married the daughter of a knight and Littlefinger was a lord. Lord of sheep dung, but still a Lord. Hoster was a social climber, that much is clear. Seriously, what would have been the harm in marrying Lysa off to some Frey (Old Walder wouldn't have cared one gold dragon about her condition), an actual vassal of the Tullys and far more influential and rich than house Baelish. 18 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: That seems unlikely to me. We don't know him well enough to know exactly how Jon would have reacted in being blackmailed like that, but I very much doubt he would have been cowed into just doing what Lysa said. He doesn't strike me as the type. You're right, we don't know Jon Arryn well enough to judge that. But we do know how prickly most lords are about their house name and reputation just on a societal level and we also know the damage even a hint of such a thing can do in social circles. Tywin Lannister had been lying to the realm for years. House Lannister is broke and is borrowing from others to cover it, just to save face, and the (illusion of) power that comes with it, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted August 30, 2018 Author Share Posted August 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Trefayne said: Hoster was a social climber, that much is clear. Seriously, what would have been the harm in marrying Lysa off to some Frey (Old Walder wouldn't have cared one gold dragon about her condition), an actual vassal of the Tullys and far more influential and rich than house Baelish. You're right, we don't know Jon Arryn well enough to judge that. But we do know how prickly most lords are about their house name and reputation just on a societal level and we also know the damage even a hint of such a thing can do in social circles. Tywin Lannister had been lying to the realm for years. House Lannister is broke and is borrowing from others to cover it, just to save face, and the (illusion of) power that comes with it, of course. Because Hoster doesn't like the Freys (maybe this is where Catelyn got her dislike of keeping bastards under the same roof as their fathers?) The part about the Lannisters being broke is from the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said: The part about the Lannisters being broke is from the show. Really? I could have sworn there was line about that in ASoS. It's been over five years since I read the whole thing. It's beginning to all run together. I wish George would hurry up so I have reason to read everything again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Trefayne said: House Lannister is broke and is borrowing from others to cover it, just to save face, and the (illusion of) power that comes with it, of course. No it isn't. There's nothing in the books to suggest that at all. The Lannisters have given massive loans to the crown, and Kevan was considering covering the loans to Braavos with Lannister gold. He wouldn't have done that if they were broke. 6 minutes ago, Trefayne said: But we do know how prickly most lords are about their house name and reputation just on a societal level and we also know the damage even a hint of such a thing can do in social circles. I imagine Lysa would just be locked away in a tall tower in the Eyrie if she pulled that sort of nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted August 30, 2018 Author Share Posted August 30, 2018 27 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: An old and noble line of knights though. Kevan shuddered at the thought of marrying his son to Jayne Westerling because her grandmother was a merchant. Littlefinger's grandfather was a sellsword from Braavos. One that got lands taken from them at least once, judging by the fact that they are merely knights compared to the lordship they had during the Dance of the Dragons (there is a Lord Swyft mentioned) and the only reason why Harys has any political weight is that Kevan is his son-in-law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: I imagine Lysa would just be locked away in a tall tower in the Eyrie if she pulled that sort of nonsense. Who knows. She exiled herself in the Vale with Robin so it may not have been necessary. Did she choose that or did LF coerce her into that as part of his plot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Just now, Trefayne said: Who knows. She exiled herself in the Vale with Robin so it may not have been necessary. Did she choose that or did LF coerce her into that as part of his plot? Nope, she left on her own to avoid Robert giving his namesake as a ward to Tywin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: One that got lands taken from them at least once, judging by the fact that they are merely knights compared to the lordship they had during the Dance of the Dragons (there is a Lord Swyft mentioned) and the only reason why Harys has any political weight is that Kevan is his son-in-law. Oh agreed, but for Kevan, clearly, noble lineage is important. The fact that a girl's great grandfather sold cloves was enough to put him off a match with his son. The Swyfts are a long standing noble house, despite their lack of money or power. When he talks about the proposed match to Tyrion and Tywin, he cares more about the Spicers having descended from merchants than the fact that the Westerlings, who can trace their lineage back to the First Men, are stone bloke and have a fighting force of about thirty mates. My point being that there are different kinds of knights and lords. A knight such as Harys Swift or Ronnet Connington or the Kight of Ninestars isn't seen to be in the same league as Littlefinger, and he's a lord. "New" houses are generally looked down upon, and have to accumulate wealth and power to overcome that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 6 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: He had a son, so I doubt he's infertile. You mean the sickly kid that resembles LF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: You mean the sickly kid that resembles LF? Didn't his first wife die giving birth to a stillborn baby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 17 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: You mean the sickly kid that resembles LF? I don't personally subscribe to that theory, but you do you. 13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Didn't his first wife die giving birth to a stillborn baby? Yes, and Lysa had plenty of miscarriages. Early miscarriages may be caused by problems with the man's genes, but that's not the same as infertility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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