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argonak

Janos Slynt

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So I was rereading the part where Tyrion sends Janos to the wall last night, and I was a bit surprised.  He basically frog marched the guy onto a boat and exiled him to the wall.  

Janos is a Lord.  He's been enobled.  How can Tyrion get away with doing that?  Its a complete breach of Janos's rights.  No trial, just put on a boat and shipped out.  There's some threat at his children, but Janos plans to go to Cersei and the King, so they just kidnap him.  Not to mention they simply sieze Harrenhal from him with no justification.  But ok, so fait accompli, Janos is on the boat.  he gets to the Wall, and he just. . . stays?  Why didn't he turn around and go home?   Why would he swear oaths and become a wall monk for the rest of his life?  

He's a LORD.  He has rights.  He's not some peasant.  And this doesn't even consider how tyrannical Tyrion is acting in this.  And he has the gall to get all uppity about his own trial later.  At least he got a trial.

Edited by argonak

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Actually, Tyrion was acting Hand, so he had the authority to judge and dispossess him. As for crimes for legal justification, there were plenty to be found. Only Cersei countermanding him could have stopped this. Sure it was irregular, but so was his appointment.

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24 minutes ago, argonak said:

So I was rereading the part where Tyrion sends Janos to the wall last night, and I was a bit surprised.  He basically frog marched the guy onto a boat and exiled him to the wall.  

Janos is a Lord.  He's been enobled.  How can Tyrion get away with doing that?  Its a complete breach of Janos's rights.  No trial, just put on a boat and shipped out.  There's some threat at his children, but Janos plans to go to Cersei and the King, so they just kidnap him.  Not to mention they simply sieze Harrenhal from him with no justification.  But ok, so fait accompli, Janos is on the boat.  he gets to the Wall, and he just. . . stays?  Why didn't he turn around and go home?   Why would he swear oaths and become a wall monk for the rest of his life?  

He's a LORD.  He has rights.  He's not some peasant.  And this doesn't even consider how tyrannical Tyrion is acting in this.  And he has the gall to get all uppity about his own trial later.  At least he got a trial.

Lord Schmord...

Janos was a corrupt baby-killing toady.

Nymeria sent six KINGS to the Wall. When you lose the game of thrones, status may save your life, by giving you the Wall instead of the block. Some people manage to fuck up even that reprieve...

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The king can dispossess anybody in a feudal system.  Harrenhal was taken from the Slynts.  Winterfell was taken from the Starks.  Riverun was taken from the Tullys.  Tyrion was the acting Hand of the King at the time.  Perhaps Slynt could have sent an appeal to Tywin, if he had the time.  But after he said the words and took his vows it was too late.  Once you take the black you can never go back.

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Firstly, the Hand of the King speaks with the King's voice, and the King can do whatever the fuck he wants whether it be good or bad. Secondly, nobody cared about Janos Slynt. Tywin called him an upjumped butchers son who should never have been given Harrenhal, and wouldn't step foot in it, if he had his say.  

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Ned didn’t get a trial either. Neither did Gregor before Ned sentenced him to die, in his authority as Hand. Tywin may have, as Tommen’s hand, simply had Tyrion executed, however I think he may have wanted a visible display of “justice being done” after a regicide.

Anyway, while there may be legal justification for it, the reason Tyrion can march Janos to the Wall without due process is, well he just can. Cersei might complain, but can’t do much about it. No-one else cares about Janos, and he’s actively disliked by many. In the cut and thrust of court politics, the legal process matters little to nothing. He wanted to remove a supporter of Cersei and take control of the city watch, so he found the means to do so.

8 hours ago, argonak said:

And this doesn't even consider how tyrannical Tyrion is acting in this.

Oh, he most certainly is acting tyrannically. He also throws Pycelle in a black cell, sends another gold cloak to the Nights Watch without trial, lets Joffery fling the Antler Men from catapults, sends a gang of drunken sellswords to do slum clearances after the Battle of the Blackwater, and many other things.

In fairness to him, Tyrion never claimed to be a democrat. He tries to rule as best he can, but he's there to rule.

Edited by Shouldve Taken The Black

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7 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Ned didn’t get a trial either. Neither did Gregor before Ned sentenced him to die, in his authority as Hand. Tywin may have, as Tommen’s hand, simply had Tyrion executed, however I think he may have wanted a visible display of “justice being done” after a regicide.

<snip>

In fairness to him, Tyrion never claimed to be a democrat. He tries to rule as best he can, but he's there to rule.

Ned admitted his crimes in front of a crowd, and the King sentenced him.  That's a pretty fair shake in my opinion.  I'd have to check, but I thought Ser Gregor was supposed to be aprehended and brought to face justice, not killed out of hand. 

Its not about being a democrat or a monarchist.  Its about respecting the custom and law, the bedrock of the feudal system.  Without that there's no reason for lords to obey the king and the whole thing falls apart.

But ok fine.  The King's a complete dictator who rules at a whim, and his hand does so as well.  So why does Tyrion get a trial? And then why does he get a second one?

And I still don't know why Janos stayed at the wall.  Dude has money and friends, you'd think he'd just hop a different boat and head to essos or something.  It would have to be better than spending the rest of a short life freezing his butt off and fighting wildings.  He wasn't a criminal, no one is making him take oaths.  

And yes I get that Slynt is a treacherous baby killing scumbag.  So are a lot of Tyrion's allies and even some of his friends.  Its not really relevant to my complaint.  

 

Quote

Oh, he most certainly is acting tyrannically. He also throws Pycelle in a black cell, sends another gold cloak to the Nights Watch without trial, lets Joffery fling the Antler Men from catapults, sends a gang of drunken sellswords to do slum clearances after the Battle of the Blackwater, and many other things.

Pycelle isn't a noble.  Antler men aren't nobles.  Urban slum dwellers aren't nobles.  Slynt was a noble.  Even if it was only briefly.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding nobility in Westeros.  As far as I can tell, there's highborn, landed knights, lesser knights, and then everyone else, but being granted landsy kicks you up into the highborn club (even if they make you sit in the cheap seats).  Once Slynt was up there, his immediate family would also get that level of respect and protection.

Davos is a landed knight, which means he has an established house and is one step below a lord.  His kids would inherit his lands, although they don't automatically become Sers.

And then you've got someone like Ser Duncan, who has some basic levels of rights as a Ser, but is only one step up from the peasantry, who essentially have no rights and belong to their lord.  

Is that kind of the right of it?  I'll go look at the wiki and see what I'm missing.

Edited by argonak
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14 minutes ago, argonak said:

But ok fine.  The King's a complete dictator who rules at a whim, and his hand does so as well.  So why does Tyrion get a trial? And then why does he get a second one?

I suggested one possibility - that Tywin wanted for it to be seen that justice was done. Others may have other suggestions, but the bottom line is the Hand can sentence people to die or send people to the wall as he chooses. We saw Ned do it in GOT.

However, my main point was that legality just didn't factor into it. It was a power play, not a judgement based on law.

14 minutes ago, argonak said:

And I still don't know why Janos stayed at the wall.  Dude has money and friends, you'd think he'd just hop a different boat and head to essos or something.

He was forced onto the boat and I imagine it had a compliment of guards on it. Once he got to the Wall, if he tried to leave, the Nights Watch would have executed him.

14 minutes ago, argonak said:

He wasn't a criminal, no one is making him take oaths.  

The Hand called him a criminal, and he will be forced to take an oath or die. This has happened a million times before in history - a lord is toppled and forced to the Wall. Slynt's hardly an exception in this case.

 

14 minutes ago, argonak said:

Pycelle isn't a noble.  Antler men aren't nobles.  Slum clearences aren't nobles.  Slynt was a noble.  Even if it was only briefly.

I was responding to your point that Tyrion acted tyrannically, and agreed, and pointed out all the other tyrannical things he did.

Gregor was a noble when Ned sentenced him to die. Nobles aren't immune from the king or the Hand's edicts, unless they're powerful and influential enough to resist or reverse them. Slynt certainly wasn't that.

14 minutes ago, argonak said:

But maybe I'm misunderstanding nobility in Westeros.  As far as I can tell, there's highborn, landed knights, lesser knights, and then everyone else, but being granted landsy kicks you up into the highborn club (even if they make you sit in the cheap seats).  Once Slynt was up there, his immediate family would also get that level of respect.  

It had nothing to do with what level of respect was his due. It was a naked power play, plain and simple. Clearly Tyrion also disliked him for his treatment of the whore and her child, but it was primaril a move to take over the gold cloaks.

Edited by Shouldve Taken The Black

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Why didn’t he leave? He was working for LF and now Tywin too. The only explanation for why Slynt suddenly seemed completely ok being at the Wall is that LF and/or Tywin promised him something in turn for the IT ruling the Wall through Slynt. As Slynt wasn’t complaining, it must have been a nice deal for him. Tywin wasn’t big on oaths as he wanted Jaime out of the KG nor did he care about important customs like Guest Right so I doubt Tywin would have a problem getting Slynt out of the NW when the timing suited him.

 

ASOS Jon XII

"Lord Tywin favors Slynt," said Bowen Marsh, in a fretful, anxious voice. "I can show you his letter, Othell. 'Our faithful friend and servant,' he called him."

 

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28 minutes ago, argonak said:

I'll go look at the wiki and see what I'm missing.

What you may be missing is that Westeros is not a rules-based society with a modern standard of jurisprudence where all are considered to be equal before the law.

16 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

It had nothing to do with what level of respect was his due. It was a naked power play, plain and simple.

Yep. This sums it up nicely.

Or going back to Thucydides: “Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.”

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Neither Cersei nor Tywin have any great love for Janos. He went behind Cersei's back to lop off Ned's head and Tywin doesn't approve of upjumping commoners to a lord's position and giving them one of the largest castles in the realm.

So not only was Tyrion within his rights to get ride of Janos, he knew he had political cover as well.

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4 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I suggested one possibility - that Tywin wanted for it to be seen that justice was done. Others may have other suggestions, but the bottom line is the Hand can sentence people to die or send people to the wall as he chooses. We saw Ned do it in GOT.

However, my main point was that legality just didn't factor into it. It was a power play, not a judgement based on law.

He was forced onto the boat and I imagine it had a compliment of guards on it. Once he got to the Wall, if he tried to leave, the Nights Watch would have executed him.

The Hand called him a criminal, and he will be forced to take an oath or die. This has happened a million times before in history - a lord is toppled and forced to the Wall. Slynt's hardly an exception in this case.

 

I was responding to your point that Tyrion acted tyrannically, and agreed, and pointed out all the other tyrannical things he did.

Gregor was a noble when Ned sentenced him to die. Nobles aren't immune from the king or the Hand's edicts, unless they're powerful and influential enough to resist or reverse them. Slynt certainly wasn't that.

It had nothing to do with what level of respect was his due. It was a naked power play, plain and simple. Clearly Tyrion also disliked him for his treatment of the whore and her child, but it was primaril a move to take over the gold cloaks.

Tyrion definitely did it unilaterally, and Cersei couldn't care once he was gone. She had assured his loyalty during the "coup" and the throne was stable for now. Replacing the leader of the gold cloaks means little and less to her as long as Joffrey is safe and Harrenhal as a boon for LF's help in garnering the alliance just makes sense.

Also Tyrion poisons Cersei at some juncture, so she might not have been been in a position to complain

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5 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Freakin' Bloodraven was sent to the Wall, compared to whom Slynt is literally a nobody.

Ned was going to be sent to the Wall, and Cersei damn well knew he did nothing wrong!

As for Janos, if I didn't hate him from the books, his on-screen portrayal sealed it for me.  He's so vile, he should've been flayed. 

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