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Valyrian Lance

Who was Tywin's heir?

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Tyrion? Tommen? Kevan? Myrcella? Cersei?

 

How about in different points in time? I am going to assume that Tywin never had any plans for Tyrion to inherit Casterly Rock.

 

Certainly Jaime was Tywin's heir until made a Kingsguard.

 

After that and before Tywin sacked Kings Landing, Cersei most likely could be wed to someone willing to forego their family name (or a cousin) and their child would be heir.

 

How about after Cersei's marriage to Robert? - Was it always going to be their second son? Was Tywin deluded enough to think Jaime could forego his vows and still become Lord of Casterly Rock? Perhaps he assumed he would outlive Robert and could force Joffrey to allow Jaime to resign.

 

After Jaime refuses to resign his Kingsguard post, Tywin is left in a tight spot. Tommen has been made king, Jaime has refused to become Lord of Casterly Rock, he is about to put Tyrion to death, Myrcella is set to marry a Martell, Cersei has refused to marry a 2nd time. There are no heirs left besides Kevan, his two alive sons Lancel and Martyn, and then there is the missing Tyrek. Luckily, he dies soon after, so he doesn't need to worry about this stretch of time for too long. Does it pass to the crown and Tommen through Cersei?

 

Tywin is too calculating to leave his inheritance up to so many ifs and buts. He should have remarried long ago and had more sons, but maybe that was his next big idea.

Edited by Valyrian Lance

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Tywin would not let Tyrion inherit , which will make Cersei the rightful heir to CR I think . But I'm not sure if Tywin intended for Cersei to inherit , I think his plan was for Jaime to leave the KG and become his heir once more. 

 

Edited by LordImp

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Without knowing more about Westerlands inheritence laws, it looks like it goes to Joffrey (later Tommen).  Who would most likely instead grant it to a different Lannister, such as Kevan.  

There are examples of inheritance laws in England that would skip any children of the female line however, in which case it would go to Kevan directly.  From the sound of some of the conversations, Tywin might also have been able to designate an heir (unlike Tarly who instead had to send Samwell to the wall as he wouldn't let him become a Maester or Septon).  

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The "by the book" succession before taking any additional considerations, would be:

  1. Jaime
  2. Tyrion
  3. Cersei
  4. Joffrey
  5. Tommen
  6. Myrcella
  7. Kevan
  8. Lancel

And so on.

Of course, individuals who have vowed not to hold lands and titles (such as Jaime) or condemned by regicide (such as Tyrion) would be excluded, although probably a king would be considered to have the right to annul both Jaime's vows or Tyrion's sentence.

And of course, dead people such as Joffrey or Kevan can't inherit.

To further complicate matters, there is no tradition in Westeros to combine holdings. So whoever gets the Iron Throne, would not be expected to claim the Westerlands.

At the begining of the books, Tyrion was, by law Tywin's heir. Since Joffrey was expected to inherit the throne, I suppose Tywin intended to convince Robert to allow him to make Tommen his heir, once he was older. Surely Robert would be happy to grant this, specially if Stannis and Renly had secured their own heirs by then.

Edited by The hairy bear

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I think all lords in Westeros can choose his heir; it just might not go over well in certain regions. Balon Greyjoy made his heir completely known (Asha was clearly the heir of Pyke even when Theon was known to be alive) and Asha still got shafted. While I am 95% sure that the Dornish won't be able to get away with it unless their son/daughter was a Ramsay, the North has clearly shown that it would allow a Ramsay to inherit and rule.

But things might be very different in the Westerlands. It might work in a way similar to our modern inheritance laws: the ruling lord (or lady) specifies his heir in his will. If he is unable to do so, his heir will be named according to standard Westerosi inheritance law. Sons before daughters, children and grandchildren before siblings and cousins...

Tyrion has been effectively disinherited by the end of his trial. With Joffrey dead, Jaime refusing to forsake his vows and Tywin not yet moving to oust Jaime, Cersei is Tywin's legal heir. Tywin might have been okay with that...but it is more than likely that he would've found a way to have Jaime removed from office and sent packing.

According to standard law, if the line to look at is Cersei's line, inheritance of Casterly Rock and the West would go to Cersei then Tommen and then Myrcella. After Myrcella, it would go to Kevan and then Lancel. And then it would move on to Gemma and her children before moving to Tywin's cousins.

If Jaime was removed from the Kingsguard, he would be the heir. Of course, there's nothing to stop him from being the Lord of Casterly Rock in name only and just leaving to do his own thing. But if he is married and has a trueborn son or daughter, his son/daughter would inherit with their mother or - more likely - a Lannister relative would rule as regent in their stead.

The only way Tyrion could have become the heir to Casterly Rock and all of the West is if Tywin died before the Purple Wedding and before Jaime can be relieved of his vows. Even then, Tyrion would be ferociously opposed by Cersei who would rather one of her children - likely Myrcella - to become the Lord Paramount of the Westerlands. Which means that there would have been another war-within-a-war...in which Tyrion would be horribly outnumbered as most westermen (and, more than likely, the Tyrells and their bannermen) would likely stand with their Queen. Maybe even the Dornish would be compelled to fight with Cersei given that Myrcella betrothed to Trystane.

But if Cersei or the westerners prefer the male Tommen over the female Myrcella (eye-roll but whatever), then Tyrion might have a potential ally in the Martells....if he plays his cards right.

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The thing with Tywin's heir is that there would be a de jure heir and a de facto heir. Legally and de juro Tyrion was Tywin's heir but de facto Jamie was Tywin's heir. Eddard claims to much in A Game of Thrones and I see no reason to think that he is wrong in this. For the Lannisters don't care that Jamie can't inherit or can't leave the Kingsguard. Jamie was perfectly able to attack the king's friend and then lead Westerland armies against his House's enemies despite the fact that he was in the Kingsguard. If Jamie would not have met Brienne then when Tywin died, Jamie would have claimed the Rock, laughed at anyone who would have tried to argue with him, and kill anyone who insisted that he couldn't be the new Lord Lannister.

With the Lannisters in the main series rules don't mean much so arguing about what rules decides what is only a theoretical exercise with little relevance for what would have happened.

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50 minutes ago, argonak said:

Without knowing more about Westerlands inheritence laws, it looks like it goes to Joffrey (later Tommen).  Who would most likely instead grant it to a different Lannister, such as Kevan.  

No, it went to Cersei, she is the current ruler of the Rock, this is both confirmed by Kevan in AFFC and the appendix.

Daughters can inherit Lordships, before Gerold (from the Dunk & Egg novella's) became Lord his niece was the ruler. 

 

1 hour ago, Valyrian Lance said:

Tyrion? Tommen? Kevan? Myrcella? Cersei?

Before he killed the king it was officially Tyrion, there was no other. 

Tywin was hoping to have Jaime released, thus his oldest son would inherit. 

1 hour ago, Valyrian Lance said:

How about in different points in time? I am going to assume that Tywin never had any plans for Tyrion to inherit Casterly Rock.

I think making him Hand was Tyrion's 'audition'. 

"Why me?" he asked, cocking his head to one side. "Why not my uncle? Why not Ser Addam or Ser Flement or Lord Serrett? Why not a … bigger man?"
Lord Tywin rose abruptly. "You are my son."
That was when he knew. You have given him up for lost, he thought. You bloody bastard, you think Jaime's good as dead, so I'm all you have left.
 
Unfortunately for Tyrion the moment he threatened a Lannister over a whore he became an unsuitable choice for the patriarch of the Lannisters. 
1 hour ago, Valyrian Lance said:

 

Certainly Jaime was Tywin's heir until made a Kingsguard.

and likely after. Tywin at some point would have offered to forgive the Crown's debts if Robert released Jaime from his vows. Once Joffrey was king he took it for granted that Jaime would be released until Jaime refused.

1 hour ago, Valyrian Lance said:

 

After that and before Tywin sacked Kings Landing, Cersei most likely could be wed to someone willing to forego their family name (or a cousin) and their child would be heir.

No, it would still go Tyrion, Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen, new male Cersie child. Only Robert, Joffrey or Tommen. as kings, could change the line of succession. 

Given that Tyrion and Joffrey hated each other, removing Tyrion from the line of succession was likely not a problem for Tywin. 

1 hour ago, Valyrian Lance said:

 

How about after Cersei's marriage to Robert? - Was it always going to be their second son? Was Tywin deluded enough to think Jaime could forego his vows and still become Lord of Casterly Rock? Perhaps he assumed he would outlive Robert and could force Joffrey to allow Jaime to resign.

It is hardly delusional, Jaime from book 1 seemed to hate being a KG. Had he not been in love with his sister he would have jumped at the chance to quit. 

1 hour ago, Valyrian Lance said:

 

After Jaime refuses to resign his Kingsguard post, Tywin is left in a tight spot. Tommen has been made king, Jaime has refused to become Lord of Casterly Rock, he is about to put Tyrion to death, Myrcella is set to marry a Martell, Cersei has refused to marry a 2nd time. There are no heirs left besides Kevan, his two alive sons Lancel and Martyn, and then there is the missing Tyrek. Luckily, he dies soon after, so he doesn't need to worry about this stretch of time for too long. Does it pass to the crown and Tommen through Cersei?

It will go to Tommen providing he outlives his mother. 

As king, like Robert, he may well pass it on to a relative, likely with the Lannister name. 

1 hour ago, Valyrian Lance said:

 

Tywin is too calculating to leave his inheritance up to so many ifs and buts. He should have remarried long ago and had more sons, but maybe that was his next big idea.

More sons does not change the line of succession, Tyrion and his children would come before everyone but Jaime. 

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Meh, Tyrion. Maybe Tommen, provided Tywin doesn't change his mind about Tyrion (had he lived and a lot of other shit not gone down) and that somehow no one ever squeals to the public about the inbreeding twins. Exposure would definitely preclude Jamie, Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella-there's no embarrassing Tywin before the realm and then inbreeders/bastards getting his kingdom.

As to Tyrion-Elizabeth Tudor often and loudly objected to James I inheriting her throne, until, in the end, she had not much else choice and started preparing for that to be the inevitable....quite secretly.  The secrecy was smart of Bess, BTW, lest the Protestants lords get pissed and plan to take her out a little earlier than God did, in order to insure another Protestant gets in there before James had his chance.  After decades of strife and vitriol between the Houses of Tudor and Stuart, Elizabeth (as seen in her letters to the King of Scotland) started to warm to James in a somewhat maternal way. It happens when your back's against the wall.  

So, you never know how that relationship would have played out, if Tyrion wasn't patricidal (obvs). But Tywin wasn't going to advertise, ever, that he planned on making his dwarf warden. His nobles would scoff....but not as much as they would with the inbreds, as they are bastards, every one.

 

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

and likely after. Tywin at some point would have offered to forgive the Crown's debts if Robert released Jaime from his vows. Once Joffrey was king he took it for granted that Jaime would be released until Jaime refused.

It is hardly delusional, Jaime from book 1 seemed to hate being a KG. Had he not been in love with his sister he would have jumped at the chance to quit. 

I am trying to remember where exactly it was, but there a quite a few quotes where Ned/Tyrion/Cersei/Robert clearly expect Jaime to be Lord of CR.

Robert was going to make him Warden of the West, for example. Ned wasn't a fan. a KG can probably be a warden as its a wartime position and we see the White Bull do it, but I always read the series as Jaime inheriting for Tywin when the time came for Tywin to burst his heart climbing down the ladder on his alleged jaunts to Chatayas.

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I am trying to remember where exactly it was, but there a quite a few quotes where Ned/Tyrion/Cersei/Robert clearly expect Jaime to be Lord of CR.

Robert was going to make him Warden of the West, for example. Ned wasn't a fan. a KG can probably be a warden as its a wartime position and we see the White Bull do it, but I always read the series as Jaime inheriting for Tywin when the time came for Tywin to burst his heart climbing down the ladder on his alleged jaunts to Chatayas.

I always thought of this as Jaime would know all the lords of the West and have some clout with them, in terms of marshaling them to fight. He was a good soldier and leader.

It also make sense in reference to when Robert doesn't want to make Sweetrobin the Warden of the East, a child commander wouldn't be a good idea. Like making a Tyrell the governor of Dorne OR an Iron Islander the Warden of the West.

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11 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

I always thought of this as Jaime would know all the lords of the West and have some clout with them, in terms of marshaling them to fight. He was a good soldier and leader.

It also make sense in reference to when Robert doesn't want to make Sweetrobin the Warden of the East, a child commander wouldn't be a good idea. Like making a Tyrell the governor of Dorne OR an Iron Islander the Warden of the West.

There are other quotes I cannot find, but putting them together makes it pretty apparent Tywin wants Jaime as his heir, whether or not of that is feasible is another question.

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well never mind. I forgot Tywin says it outright:

"You do." Lord Tywin rose as well. "A duty to House Lannister. You are the heir to Casterly Rock. That is where you should be. Tommen should accompany you, as your ward and squire. The Rock is where he'll learn to be a Lannister, and I want him away from his mother. I mean to find a new husband for Cersei. Oberyn Martell perhaps, once I convince Lord Tyrell that the match does not threaten Highgarden. And it is past time you were wed. The Tyrells are now insisting that Margaery be wed to Tommen, but if I were to offer you instead—"

Kinda answers that then. It was Jaime and then it's going to be Cersei. Tywin wants her away from Tommen. Once Jaime refuses him and they crown Tommen, Kevan confirms that Cersei was to head to CR and be Lady of the Rock

 

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One of of the reasons Tywin was so keen to get Jaime released from the Kingsguard was because he never truly stopped thinking of him as his one, true heir. In reality, it is Tyrion as the eldest male non-affiliated with any order that prevents him from inheriting land but he made it clear that he didn't want him to be Lord of the Rock.

Cersei is technically third in line because she is his daughter but he clearly doesn't have all that strong an opinion of her - and rightly so, seeing as she is a mitigating disaster. Ultimately the literal Lady of Casterly Rock as it stands now is Cersei because Jaime is still in the Kingsguard and Tyrion is on the run from the King's Justice. After her, it's Myrcella because Tommen, as King, can't inherit. Not without upset, anyway.

Edited by Faera

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9 hours ago, Faera said:

One of of the reasons Tywin was so keen to get Jaime released from the Kingsguard was because he never truly stopped thinking of him as his one, true heir. In reality, it is Tyrion as the eldest male non-affiliated with any order that prevents him from inheriting land but he made it clear that he didn't want him to be Lord of the Rock.

Cersei is technically third in line because she is his daughter but he clearly doesn't have all that strong an opinion of her - and rightly so, seeing as she is a mitigating disaster. Ultimately the literal Lady of Casterly Rock as it stands now is Cersei because Jaime is still in the Kingsguard and Tyrion is on the run from the King's Justice. After her, it's Myrcella because Tommen, as King, can't inherit. Not without upset, anyway.

Tommen can inherit. Robert did not grant Storm's End because he had to. I think Martin has commented on the fact. He could have a castellan or a steward rule in his name. Like Nestor Royce ruled the Vale as Steward in Jon Arryn's name. Tommen stands to inherit Casterly Rock and as his nominal uncles have been attained, he should already be Lord of Storm's End. 

The inheritance of the Rock is not that complicated. Barring legal complications the sequence is Jaime, Tyrion, Cersei, then her children, Kevan, then his children, then Tyrek, as Tygget's son, then Genna and her children and then we'd need to look at Tywin's cousins. 

As it stands Jaime is in the King's Guard, Tyrion is a fugitive, so Cersei is the reigning Lady of Casterly Rock. 

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20 hours ago, Aetta said:

Meh, Tyrion. Maybe Tommen, provided Tywin doesn't change his mind about Tyrion (had he lived and a lot of other shit not gone down) and that somehow no one ever squeals to the public about the inbreeding twins. Exposure would definitely preclude Jamie, Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella-there's no embarrassing Tywin before the realm and then inbreeders/bastards getting his kingdom.

As to Tyrion-Elizabeth Tudor often and loudly objected to James I inheriting her throne, until, in the end, she had not much else choice and started preparing for that to be the inevitable....quite secretly.  The secrecy was smart of Bess, BTW, lest the Protestants lords get pissed and plan to take her out a little earlier than God did, in order to insure another Protestant gets in there before James had his chance.  After decades of strife and vitriol between the Houses of Tudor and Stuart, Elizabeth (as seen in her letters to the King of Scotland) started to warm to James in a somewhat maternal way. It happens when your back's against the wall.  

So, you never know how that relationship would have played out, if Tyrion wasn't patricidal (obvs). But Tywin wasn't going to advertise, ever, that he planned on making his dwarf warden. His nobles would scoff....but not as much as they would with the inbreds, as they are bastards, every one. 

 

What was the deal with Elizabeth anyways?

Was she barren? Did she have some kind of condition that prevented her from having children? Was she not willing to have a husband (or in-laws) who could threaten her claim? Was she stubbornly gay? What was it?

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1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

What was the deal with Elizabeth anyways?

Was she barren? Did she have some kind of condition that prevented her from having children? Was she not willing to have a husband (or in-laws) who could threaten her claim? Was she stubbornly gay? What was it?

She wanted to keep power, marrying would have effectively ended her reign and begin her husband's rule. She saw how  Philip II ruled when Mary was queen and did not want a repeat of that.   Given the extreme factionalism at the time she really did not trust a potential match to remain. neutral on the religion of her subjects, like she herself had. Plus being unmarried meant she was still available, which made few enemies while picking a husband would do. 

 

It also should be noted that her own parents marriage, with her father executing her mother, likely soured her on marriage from an early age and the frequent miscarriages and subsequent poor health early mortality from the women in her life was also another negative.

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5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

She wanted to keep power, marrying would have effectively ended her reign and begin her husband's rule. She saw how  Philip II ruled when Mary was queen and did not want a repeat of that.   Given the extreme factionalism at the time she really did not trust a potential match to remain. neutral on the religion of her subjects, like she herself had. Plus being unmarried meant she was still available, which made few enemies while picking a husband would do. 

It also should be noted that her own parent's marriage, with her father executing her mother, likely soured her on marriage from an early age and the frequent miscarriages and subsequent poor health early mortality from the women in her life was also another negative.

 
1

Ok. But couldn't she have "married down?" Married a knight or a low-ranking member of the nobility she could have controlled or someone who would have been indebted to her. Is a commoner too bad of an idea?

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Couldn't she have "married down?" Married someone she could have controlled or someone who would have been indebted to her.

She could have and it would have alienated most of europe and some of the english aristocracy, both the Woodville's and Boelyn's were despised by many for being beneath the king's their daughters married, Elizabeth was simply not in a position to marry so low, her entire reign was a finely balancing act trying to keep most of the factions happy with her.. 

 

At various times in her childhood her own father had legally disinherited her (Mary too) while her mother and uncle had been executed as traitors. If she was too marry it would have had to be an equal, not someone beneath her

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