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Ellard Stark

Why didnt the ToGs send down direwolves for Brandon, Ned, Lyanna & Benjen?

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I'd say they saw what was going to happen as necessary are not worth their time.

ETA. Why do you find the current generation wimpy? Jon was at least a decent fighter, Robb was functional, and a pretty good battle commander, and Arya is a complete badass.

Edited by TPTWP Timett

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40 minutes ago, TPTWP Timett said:

I'd say they saw what was going to happen as necessary are not worth their time.

ETA. Why do you find the current generation wimpy? Jon was at least a decent fighter, Robb was functional, and a pretty good battle commander, and Arya is a complete badass.

I mean, Aerys's KG. They would never be caught dead wearing skinny jeans, manscaping and listening to emo singers.

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On 8/30/2018 at 8:40 PM, Ellard Stark said:

I mean that generation of Starks needed more protection from ToGs than the current generation filled with wimps. 

Because they didn't send them. Brandon brought his wolf through to wall to birth it's pups in the Wolfswood. 

Later on when Brandon is killed, he moves his second life into Ghost. This is why Ghost acts differently than other direwolves.

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On 8/31/2018 at 5:34 AM, Stormking902 said:

Because Lyanna is a whore .......

Noooo, I didn't see that coming, xD

Because The Old Gods don't work that way,delivering direwolves here and there. 

Do we even know what the old gods really are?

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On 8/30/2018 at 8:40 PM, Ellard Stark said:

I mean that generation of Starks needed more protection from ToGs than the current generation filled with wimps. 

It wasn't the right time.  It's Ned's children who are the important generation for the side of Ice.   Ned's children and his bastard son are the ones chosen to champion Ice and winter.

Rhaegar thought he was the promised prince but it was too soon.  His own prejudice got in the way and got him thinking that way.  His little sister is the promised one on the side of Fire and spring.

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4 hours ago, ShaggydogVOK said:

Because they didn't send them. Brandon brought his wolf through to wall to birth it's pups in the Wolfswood. 

Later on when Brandon is killed, he moves his second life into Ghost. This is why Ghost acts differently than other direwolves.

I'm very confused here, not sure at all what you mean. Care to elaborate? 

 

ETA: the opposite of Winter is Summer, not Spring. Kind of pathetic, truly. "Let's paint the Starks are evul, they're Winter's servants and will bring death and destruction. Now, Dany s the opposite, but she represents Spring, and her farts smell flowery". What a joke. 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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On 8/31/2018 at 2:40 AM, Ellard Stark said:

I mean that generation of Starks needed more protection from ToGs than the current generation filled with wimps. 

Out-of-Universe Because if Ned, Lyanna, Benjen and Brandon had Direwolves then the six direpups the Stark-bunch got would be much less special.

In-Univers I was always under the impression that more than anything the Dire-mom was fleeing for the Others north of the Wall so there would be no reason for a Direwolf to be faffing about south of the Wall 20+ years earlier.

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12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm very confused here, not sure at all what you mean. Care to elaborate? 

 

ETA: the opposite of Winter is Summer, not Spring. Kind of pathetic, truly. "Let's paint the Starks are evul, they're Winter's servants and will bring death and destruction. Now, Dany s the opposite, but she represents Spring, and her farts smell flowery". What a joke. 

 

The notion that the Old Gods sent the Starks the direwolves doesn't make any sense. 

Think back to the first direwolf we see in the series. It is the mother wolf that was killed by the stag in the wolfswood that Robb and Jon find after the execution of the deserter from the Watch. 

Theon indicates that direwolves haven't been seen in the area for over a hundred years. This seems like an accurate claim as direwolves would be apex predators in that environment.  Additionally Benjen notes that they still have direwolves beyond the wall when he chats with drunk Jon at the feast for Robert in Winterfell. 

So I'm accepting that notion as fact.

 

So the question is how did that first direwolf get past the Wall? Climbing is definitely not an option. Tunneling underneath seems unlikely as does the direwolf running the length of the wall and swimming around. 

This only leaves the option of it passing through. Likely via a gate, or the secret gate that Bran travels through when he heads north. We know the servants of the Old Gods are unable to pass due to the magics in the wall. Hence why Coldhands had to wait on the other side, instead of going with Sam and Gilly. 

But Benjen could have opened the gate. Keeping in mind he was First Ranger, his familiarity with the crumbling locations and passages is probably pretty good. Likely Benjen found the wolf beyond the wall and started forming his warg bond with it. 

We don't see Starks developing warg abilities unless it is with a direwolf initially. Sansa hasn't developed any abilites as she lost her direwolf.

So Benjen must have been a warg on some level. Likely when he realized his direwolf was with a litter, he let it through the wall and into the wolfswood where it would be an apex predator. (No competition means it can birth a healthy litter and likely the pups would be OK.)

Benjen goes back North and doesn't show back up until the feast for Robert, where he bumps into Jon and recognizes Ghost as a direwolf.

If you look at all the direwolves, they seem to react directly to the emotions/mindset of the warg/companion Stark. IE Nymeria attacks Joff when Arya is fighting him. Robb greets Tyrion with hostility when Tyrion is traveling south from the Wall, and Greywind reacts hostile upon entry to the hall. 

Ghost acts exactly the same way, he even attacks Tyrion on the road up to the Wall when Tyrion upsets Jon. However, once Jon has the 'vision' of Benjen laying dead/bleeding out in the snow beyond the wall, Ghost starts acting a lot different. 

First he goes against his natural animal instincts on a few occasions. Typically they (animals) flee the wights and others, Ghost leads them to a couple of wights when Jon and Sam take their oaths at the tree beyond the wall. Later when Chet tries to get the dogs to take scent they refuse.

When Sam first arrives, and is crying after the first day of training. Jon doesn't know what to do, but Ghost shows almost human level of empathy and compassion and gets Sam to stop crying. 

Ghost also makes noise to alert Jon's friends when Jon is planning on deserting the Watch. This is the exact opposite of what his warg wanted.  

When Jon and the Half-hand are in the cave and recite their vows, Ghost remains quiet and almost seems to be joining in on the oath. Also most of Ghosts attacks are leaping attacks. He leaps at Tyrion, the wight that attacks Lord Commander Mormont. Yet in Jon's fight with the half hand, Ghost is behind the Half Hand and opts to gnaw at his calf. He easily could have taken the Half Hand down from behind, but he didn't so Jon could get the kill. Effectively selling it to the wildlings.

Ghost also is seen calmly looking up at the stars just prior to Jon telling him he has to make his way back to Castle Black. Navigation by stars is something the first ranger of the watch would be well aware of how to do. 

I'm sure there are at least a dozen other instances of Ghost acting more human than direwolf, but they escape me at the moment. 

 

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5 hours ago, ShaggydogVOK said:

 

The notion that the Old Gods sent the Starks the direwolves doesn't make any sense. 

Think back to the first direwolf we see in the series. It is the mother wolf that was killed by the stag in the wolfswood that Robb and Jon find after the execution of the deserter from the Watch. 

Theon indicates that direwolves haven't been seen in the area for over a hundred years. This seems like an accurate claim as direwolves would be apex predators in that environment.  Additionally Benjen notes that they still have direwolves beyond the wall when he chats with drunk Jon at the feast for Robert in Winterfell. 

So I'm accepting that notion as fact.

 

So the question is how did that first direwolf get past the Wall? Climbing is definitely not an option. Tunneling underneath seems unlikely as does the direwolf running the length of the wall and swimming around. 

This only leaves the option of it passing through. Likely via a gate, or the secret gate that Bran travels through when he heads north. We know the servants of the Old Gods are unable to pass due to the magics in the wall. Hence why Coldhands had to wait on the other side, instead of going with Sam and Gilly. 

But Benjen could have opened the gate. Keeping in mind he was First Ranger, his familiarity with the crumbling locations and passages is probably pretty good. Likely Benjen found the wolf beyond the wall and started forming his warg bond with it. 

We don't see Starks developing warg abilities unless it is with a direwolf initially. Sansa hasn't developed any abilites as she lost her direwolf.

So Benjen must have been a warg on some level. Likely when he realized his direwolf was with a litter, he let it through the wall and into the wolfswood where it would be an apex predator. (No competition means it can birth a healthy litter and likely the pups would be OK.)

Benjen goes back North and doesn't show back up until the feast for Robert, where he bumps into Jon and recognizes Ghost as a direwolf.

If you look at all the direwolves, they seem to react directly to the emotions/mindset of the warg/companion Stark. IE Nymeria attacks Joff when Arya is fighting him. Robb greets Tyrion with hostility when Tyrion is traveling south from the Wall, and Greywind reacts hostile upon entry to the hall. 

Ghost acts exactly the same way, he even attacks Tyrion on the road up to the Wall when Tyrion upsets Jon. However, once Jon has the 'vision' of Benjen laying dead/bleeding out in the snow beyond the wall, Ghost starts acting a lot different. 

First he goes against his natural animal instincts on a few occasions. Typically they (animals) flee the wights and others, Ghost leads them to a couple of wights when Jon and Sam take their oaths at the tree beyond the wall. Later when Chet tries to get the dogs to take scent they refuse.

When Sam first arrives, and is crying after the first day of training. Jon doesn't know what to do, but Ghost shows almost human level of empathy and compassion and gets Sam to stop crying. 

Ghost also makes noise to alert Jon's friends when Jon is planning on deserting the Watch. This is the exact opposite of what his warg wanted.  

When Jon and the Half-hand are in the cave and recite their vows, Ghost remains quiet and almost seems to be joining in on the oath. Also most of Ghosts attacks are leaping attacks. He leaps at Tyrion, the wight that attacks Lord Commander Mormont. Yet in Jon's fight with the half hand, Ghost is behind the Half Hand and opts to gnaw at his calf. He easily could have taken the Half Hand down from behind, but he didn't so Jon could get the kill. Effectively selling it to the wildlings.

Ghost also is seen calmly looking up at the stars just prior to Jon telling him he has to make his way back to Castle Black. Navigation by stars is something the first ranger of the watch would be well aware of how to do. 

I'm sure there are at least a dozen other instances of Ghost acting more human than direwolf, but they escape me at the moment. 

 

I disagree with many claims and assumptions you're making here, but to each their own. But my confusion didn't come from disagreeing, only from you using Brandon instead of Benjen! :D

 

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The direwolves were sent either by Bloodraven or by Bran reaching back through time. The whole thing is a weirdo attempt to warn Ned about the future (stay away from the Baratheons or they'll kill you) and to strengthen the his children. But it would have been much more, well, effective to send a messenger or, you know, a raven.

 

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I don’t know if George fleshed out the detail of who sent the direwolves back when he wrote the scene. It was a supernaturally inspired event, including some heavy foreshadowing involving the stag. Not something that an individual would necesarrily orchestrate. More along the lines of events brought about by Fate or “the Universe” or the gods, in a kind of subtle, heavily symbolic way.

As to how direwolves cross the Wall, do we know if the Gorge around the Shadow Tower area is impassable for animals too, or just for large groups of humans?

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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On 9/15/2018 at 8:35 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

A direwolf is most useful to someone who has the warg ability.  Ned was not a warg.  We have no clues pointing to his siblings having the warg skill.  

But there is a ton of evidence to indicate the Starks of old were wargs. 

They did defeat the "Warg King" and married his daughters. Additionally they have a tradition of being entombed with a direwolf statue. Likely the direwolf the Stark lived out it's second life.

Also there is the paranoia about the spirits in the crypts. Specifically they toss an iron sword on the crypt to keep the vengeful spirit in.  Someone killed might wish to warg into someone else and claim revenge. Possession of another person is possible. We see this with Bran and Sixskins also attempts it as well. 

As indicated before, the Starks likely need a direwolf in order for their Warg powers to manifest. Hence why they have the statues, the sigils and why GRRM needed to burn the tower library at Winterfell. 

After all if Bran can just go look up what is happening to him in a book, it won't make for a really great read as a good part of the mystery will be solved quickly. 

 

 

 

 

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On 9/14/2018 at 7:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

The direwolves were sent either by Bloodraven or by Bran reaching back through time. The whole thing is a weirdo attempt to warn Ned about the future (stay away from the Baratheons or they'll kill you) and to strengthen the his children. But it would have been much more, well, effective to send a messenger or, you know, a raven.

 

That doesn't make any sense. Bloodraven should WANT the Baratheons dead. I'd be more inclined to think that Bloodraven somehow warged the boar that killed Robert. 

Additionally if it was Bran, wouldn't he have, ya know stopped himself from becoming a cripple? Maybe a warning about not climbing the broken tower. 

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3 hours ago, ShaggydogVOK said:

As indicated before, the Starks likely need a direwolf in order for their Warg powers to manifest. Hence why they have the statues, the sigils and why GRRM needed to burn the tower library at Winterfell.  

Sounds interesting, but why the library?

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On 9/13/2018 at 5:50 PM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

It wasn't the right time.  It's Ned's children who are the important generation for the side of Ice.   Ned's children and his bastard son are the ones chosen to champion Ice and winter.

Rhaegar thought he was the promised prince but it was too soon.  His own prejudice got in the way and got him thinking that way.  His little sister is the promised one on the side of Fire and spring.

The battle of the two elements.  Fire vs. Ice is coming.  

5 hours ago, ShaggydogVOK said:

That doesn't make any sense. Bloodraven should WANT the Baratheons dead. I'd be more inclined to think that Bloodraven somehow warged the boar that killed Robert. 

Additionally if it was Bran, wouldn't he have, ya know stopped himself from becoming a cripple? Maybe a warning about not climbing the broken tower. 

Just because direwolves have not been seen on the south side of the wall doesn't mean they were not there.  I don't think a pregnant direwolf can cross the wall.  The northern wilderness is vast and shy creatures can easily keep away from men.  So no, I don't think Bloodraven sent the wolves.  

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On 9/15/2018 at 2:38 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

I don’t know if George fleshed out the detail of who sent the direwolves back when he wrote the scene. It was a supernaturally inspired event, including some heavy foreshadowing involving the stag. Not something that an individual would necesarrily orchestrate. More along the lines of events brought about by Fate or “the Universe” or the gods, in a kind of subtle, heavily symbolic way.

As to how direwolves cross the Wall, do we know if the Gorge around the Shadow Tower area is impassable for animals too, or just for large groups of humans?

The direwolves were found close to where Gared was executed. He is a black brother that just crossed the Wall. In the prologue there is a single wolf howling.  All coincidences or he brought the she-wolf through the Black Gate?

Edited by Tucu

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