Heresy 213 Death aint what it used to be

[Matthew.]

As just a slight addition, I should make clear I'm not arguing against other possible routes for Stannis' arc to play out: that the author might kill Stannis at the Battle of Winterfell and have the Pink Letter turn out to be true would be one way to upend expectation, to have Melisandre take initiative (assuming Stannis is dead) and sacrifice Shireen, only for Stannis to return and to have this turn into a fallout between Stannis, Melisandre, and Selyse would be another route, and so forth.

Rather, I am making the case that Stannis' arc taking a darker turn merits consideration in addition to all other routes the author might go, and that I think certain authoritative declarations as to what Stannis is and is not capable of might be premature, or too narrowly considered.

[SirArthur]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Oh, its very easy. If its in ADwD or its predecessors then its by GRRM, otherwise unless GRRM tells us different its by the mummers

hmmm. GRRM has troubles writing the books for a reason. I can very well see D&D use an early draft from GRRM. What if he gave them a draft similar to the 5 year gap he later changed ? 

Or if he has a draft and later throws it away, because it did not work in the show. 

[Black Crow]

No-one has ever mentioned GRRM letting anybody see a draft. The mummers started off with the published story and from time to time went and asked him questions to which they appear to have received gnomic answers

[SirArthur]

Well, he has to make sure the stories are at least related, else the public opinion will have a bad reflection on him. It is also damaging from a brand perspective. 

Tolkien would be damaged, if there would be a fan fiction film version, with a deleted Sam, General Frodo of Gondor and that ranger dude from the north. Oh and Gandalf was replaced by Saruman the Whiter.

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Well, he has to make sure the stories are at least related, else the public opinion will have a bad reflection on him. It is also damaging from a brand perspective. 

Tolkien would be damaged, if there would be a fan fiction film version, with a deleted Sam, General Frodo of Gondor and that ranger dude from the north. Oh and Gandalf was replaced by Saruman the Whiter.

I think the opposite is true, if it takes George ten years to put out something resembling the abomination we saw from the last three seasons of the HBO show, then his legacy will be forever tarnished.

[SirArthur]

A lot of show only watchers will feel betrayed, because they feel entitled to see the one true ending TM. 

[Frey family reunion]

27 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

A lot of show only watchers will feel betrayed, because they feel entitled to see the one true ending TM. 

Most show watchers aren't book readers so they won't care.  And any book reader who thinks that the show accurately depicts how the books are heading, the only thing that they should feel is shame.

[Matthew.]

39 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

A lot of show only watchers will feel betrayed, because they feel entitled to see the one true ending TM. 

I don't think this will be the case; almost by definition, show only watchers feel no particular investment in whatever GRRM will decide to do, anymore than, say, people who only watched Jaws without reading the book care about adaptation changes.

Of course, we're living in an era in which people get really, really passionate over what is and is not "canonical" in something like Star Wars, where "canon" means that content has the official approval of a corporate license holder, so maybe I'm underestimating how betrayed people will feel by something that doesn't seem all that important 

Regardless of how people feel about the show, I'm sure they'd mostly be delighted if GRRM can deliver to them a well-told story that can still go in unexpected places, and ignite their imagination. If anything, the bigger obstacle GRRM is facing is time--not just whether he can get the story out before he dies, but for those people that have been waiting five years, ten years, fifteen years, or longer, can anything meet that level of anticipation?

[Brad Stark]

5 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I'm fairly confused by a lot of this. Example: Arya and her current show location is prob. from GRRM. There are hints and connections in the book. And links. Based on the books we have made a theory how it will unfold, with my fantasy at the end that Arya will pose as fake Arya and revenge Jeyne Pool.

And then there is the show that did not even butcher it, it wrote Jeyne out of existence. So far, so bad. But we have book connections and can unknot all the fake Jon, Sansa, Dany and so on actions.

And then there is Jon Snow or Dany. Characters that even change their personality from season to season. Remember how Dany wanted to

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"break the wheel" only to later go full monarch.

I am still confused by it. Is this now GRRM or D&D ? Did they pick up that one homage line and made it a Dany opinion ? Or has GRRM different plans ? Aligning with the council of 101 and the inheritance rules ? And how is a female character

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even on the Iron Throne

? Is this now GRRM or D&D ?

 

I think Arya's arc is pure d&d, although there are already hints she may end up falling out with the Faceless due to discipline problems.  She has been taken over to provide needed deaths, such as the Freys, likely victims of Stoneheart. 

I bet Danny's breaking the wheel speech is GRRM. 

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, SirArthur said:

A lot of show only watchers will feel betrayed, because they feel entitled to see the one true ending TM. 

GRRM has repeated said that his story and the mummers version are two entirely separate stories. Yes compromises do have to be made when translating between different mediums, but the nature of those changes allied to the fact that the last two seasons of the show have taken the story on beyond the books has widened the inevitable gulf enormously and I really wouldn't be surprised if A Dream of Spring turns out to be GRRM's revenge  

[SirArthur]

9 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I think Arya's arc is pure d&d, although there are already hints she may end up falling out with the Faceless due to discipline problems.  She has been taken over to provide needed deaths, such as the Freys, likely victims of Stoneheart. 

I bet Danny's breaking the wheel speech is GRRM. 

See, that is where I see a different origin. Jeyne Poole is due to travel to eastwatch with the bravoosi banker. From there it is only a small thought to Bravoos and the house of black and white - where Jeyne Poole can seek revenge for her "training" by Littlefinger. But you are right thinking about it. It would not lead Arya to where she is in the show, it would lead Arya to Littlefinger in the Vale.

The wheel speech is also where my opinion differs. The wheel has only be used once in the books - as a homage. There is no concept associated with it. The wheel of slavery and slave rebellions ? That is the only fitting concept and it does not fit Westeros.

[Brad Stark]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM has repeated said that his story and the mummers version are two entirely separate stories. Yes compromises do have to be made when translating between different mediums, but the nature of those changes allied to the fact that the last two seasons of the show have taken the story on beyond the books has widened the inevitable gulf enormously and I really wouldn't be surprised if A Dream of Spring turns out to be GRRM's revenge  

Yes, I said some ideas are from GRRM and will spoil book material. But character arcs are completely different, they die in different ways and places, and the overall story is greatly simplified and changed. 

Winds of Winter could become GRRM's revenge, as there is a good chance GRRM sees every last GOT episode before it goes to his publisher. 

[Frey family reunion]

On ‎9‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 9:18 AM, JNR said:

He doesn't burn people just to get ahead in the world.  As with the shadow assassin, sent to Renly because he saw Renly as a traitor, burning is for Stannis a form of punishment for treason, cannibalism, etc

I disagree with this sentiment somewhat.  Stannis' shadow assassin was formed from Stannis' dark desire of killing his brother because his brother stood in the way of something Stannis desired, the forces of the Reach and the Stormlands.  Ultimately, it's a fairly selfish motive on Stannis' behalf and for the land of Westeros, a fairly dark deed, to accomplish his objective through kinslaying (and a cowardly form of it) rather than the honorable way in meeting Renly in battle.

And Stannis comes across a tad disingenuous when he tries to disassociate himself with the deed, by claiming that the matter was simply an unavoidable fate that Melisandre foretold.

And let us not forget the killing of Ser Cortney Penrose in the same manner.  In addition, to gaining Edric Storm, this deed was performed because Stannis thought it would make him look weak if he left Storm's End untaken.  Stannis definitely has blood on his hands.

23 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I have some thoughts on the bolded--for one, I'm not sure that Stannis burning people for what he personally deems "deserving reasons" necessarily says great things about his character trajectory, and most significantly, the Edric Storm dilemma is the elephant in the room with interpreting Stannis.

Ironically, Stannis seems to have a pretty decent justification for burning Edric Storm provided he actually believes what Melisandre is telling him.  He gives a pretty impassioned speech about how the killing of one boy to save the realm is justified.  Now, it can be argued that Stannis may be more interested in the personal power that hatching a dragon would give him.  But perhaps Stannis is gaining a greater appreciation for the oncoming Long Night as evidenced by his travelling to the Wall to come to the defense of the Night's Watch.

[Melifeather]

11 hours ago, SirArthur said:

See, that is where I see a different origin. Jeyne Poole is due to travel to eastwatch with the bravoosi banker. From there it is only a small thought to Bravoos and the house of black and white - where Jeyne Poole can seek revenge for her "training" by Littlefinger. But you are right thinking about it. It would not lead Arya to where she is in the show, it would lead Arya to Littlefinger in the Vale.

The wheel speech is also where my opinion differs. The wheel has only be used once in the books - as a homage. There is no concept associated with it. The wheel of slavery and slave rebellions ? That is the only fitting concept and it does not fit Westeros.

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“Archmaester Rigney once wrote that history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again.” Rodrik says he thinks about what Rigney said whenever he thinks about Euron and how much he’s like Urron Greyiron, the man that butchered his way to the top at the last kingsmoot.

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“The dragon is time. It has no beginning and no ending, so all things come round again. Anders Yronwood is Criston Cole reborn."

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“Robb is like to give him that wish,” Catelyn said, fretful. “He is restless as a cat sitting here, and Edmure and the Greatjon and the others will urge him on.” Her son had won two great victories, smashing Jaime Lannister in the Whispering Wood and routing his leaderless host outside the walls of Riverrun in the Battle of the Camps, but from the way some of his bannermen spoke of him, he might have been Aegon the Conqueror reborn.

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Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai reborn!” Her red eyes blazed like twin fires, and seemed to stare deep into his soul. “You do not believe me. You doubt the truth of R’hllor even now . . . yet have served him all the same, and will serve him again.

 

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Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

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The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she speaks of signs and swears they point to me.

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He could see some wrestling barrels up the steps, others on the barricade; stout old Kegs, as slow as ever, Spare Boot hopping along briskly on his carved wooden leg, half-mad Easy who fancied himself Florian the Fool reborn.

 

 

 

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Open your mouth and drink deep of god’s blessing. Fill your lungs with water, that you may die and be reborn. It does no good to fight.”

 

 

 

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“Lord God who drowned for us,” the priest prayed, in a voice as deep as the sea, “let Emmond your servant be reborn from the sea, as you were. Bless him with salt, bless him with stone, bless him with steel.”

 

 

 

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That man is dead. Aeron had drowned and been reborn from the sea, the god’s own prophet. No mortal man could frighten him, no more than the darkness could . . . nor memories, the bones of the soul. The sound of a door opening, the scream of a rusted iron hinge. Euron has come again.

 

 

 

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“During the reign of King Baelor the Blessed a simple stonemason was chosen as High Septon. He worked stone so beautifully that Baelor decided he was the Smith reborn in mortal flesh.

 

 

 

 

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  Haldon nodded. “Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …”

  “Do I have to be reborn in this same body?” asked Tyrion...

 

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The Griffin Reborn - ADWD chapter 61

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One time, the girl remembered, the Sailor’s Wife had walked her rounds with her and told her tales of the city’s stranger gods. “That is the house of the Great Shepherd. Three-headed Trios has that tower with three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don’t know what the middle head’s supposed to do. Those are the Stones of the Silent God, and there the entrance to the Patternmaker’s Maze. Only those who learn to walk it properly will ever find their way to wisdom, the priests of the Pattern say.

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  Let them die,” said Queen Selyse.

  It was the answer that Jon Snow had expected. This queen never fails to disappoint. Somehow that did not soften the blow. “Your Grace,” he persisted stubbornly, “they are starving at Hardhome by the thousands. Many are women—”

  “— and children, yes. Very sad.” The queen pulled her daughter closer to her and kissed her cheek. The cheek unmarred by greyscale, Jon did not fail to note. “We are sorry for the little ones, of course, but we must be sensible. We have no food for them, and they are too young to help the king my husband in his wars. Better that they be reborn into the light.”

 

 

Quote from the show:

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“Lannister, Baratheon, Stark, Tyrell, they’re all just spokes on a wheel. This one’s on top and that one’s on top and on and on it spins, crushing those on the ground. We’re not going to stop the wheel. I’m going to break the wheel.”

 

[Melifeather]

The Sorrows is a section of the Rhoyne from south of Daggar Lake to just beyond the ruins of Chroyane. Tyrion along with the rest of the gang on the flatboat pass under the bridge with the Stone Men twice in short order. Each pass under the bridge has a different outcome. The first time through the Stone Men moaned and muttered, but other than that they took no more notice than if the boat were a log. The second time through the Stone Men were pointing down at them, and three jumped down to molest them. One of them made for Young Griff, but Tyrion drove him over the side of the boat. This scene through the Sorrows is meant to illustrate how repeating a time loop can greatly change an outcome.

[Tucu]

@Feather Crystal

This one from Jamie and Hoster Blackwood is also evocative of a wheel of time:

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“So you are fighting over a crown that one of you took from the other back when the Casterlys still held Casterly Rock, is that the root of it? The crown of a kingdom that has not existed for thousands of years?” He chuckled. “So many years, so many wars, so many kings … you’d think someone would have made a peace.”

“Someone did, my lord. Many someones. We’ve had a hundred peaces with the Brackens, many sealed with marriages. There’s Blackwood blood in every Bracken, and Bracken blood in every Blackwood. The Old King’s Peace lasted half a century. But then some fresh quarrel broke out, and the old wounds opened and began to bleed again. That’s how it always happens, my father says. So long as men remember the wrongs done to their forebears, no peace will ever last. So we go on century after century, with us hating the Brackens and them hating us. My father says there will never be an end to it."

 

[Matthew.]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ironically, Stannis seems to have a pretty decent justification for burning Edric Storm provided he actually believes what Melisandre is telling him.  He gives a pretty impassioned speech about how the killing of one boy to save the realm is justified.  Now, it can be argued that Stannis may be more interested in the personal power that hatching a dragon would give him.  But perhaps Stannis is gaining a greater appreciation for the oncoming Long Night as evidenced by his travelling to the Wall to come to the defense of the Night's Watch.

I agree that Stannis might be able to justify the burning of Edric Storm to himself, as part of a shifting world view--which is what potentially makes him dangerous. Since Melisandre came into his life, Stannis now approaches certain choices in utilitarian terms, instead of absolutist terms.

In the midst of the Edric Storm discussion, Stannis speaks of seeing things in the flames, and appears to be seriously considering the prospect that he is Azor Ahai, that Melisandre can deliver a dragon, that he has a responsibility to protect the realm from the coming darkness.

Significantly (to me) is that, while Stannis' "Lightbringer" used statues of the Seven as the sacrifice in its unveiling, and he has variously pondered sacrificing Edric Storm, Mance, and Mance's son, none of these seem to quite meet the allegorical lesson of the tale of Azor Ahai, nor the template of the terrible price that we saw Dany pay in the east. Melisandre herself touches upon the idea in relation to Edric Storm:

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Melisandre said, "Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer with the heart's blood of his own beloved wife. If a man with a thousand cows gives one to god, that is nothing. But a man who offers the only cow he owns . . ."

_____

All of this consideration, of course, is moot if Stannis dies at the Battle of Winterfell, but if he doesn't, I think he will once again be tempted by the prospect of waking dragons from stone. Dangerously, the empirical evidence - Melisandre's legitimate magical powers, the return of the Others - is compelling, from the perspective of a character living on Planetos

[Janneyc1]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

In the midst of the Edric Storm discussion, Stannis speaks of seeing things in the flames, and appears to be seriously considering the prospect that he is Azor Ahai, that Melisandre can deliver a dragon, that he has a responsibility to protect the realm from the coming darkness.

In Dance, Mel mentions her powders that can do many things. It is my interpretation that she caused Stannis to see what he saw in the flames to manipulate him into action.

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

In Dance, Mel mentions her powders that can do many things. It is my interpretation that she caused Stannis to see what he saw in the flames to manipulate him into action.

[SirArthur]

The "reborn" theme is certainly in the books and the idea of rebirth is strong. Be it "reborn", "come again" or even the Rhaegar quote from my signature. 

E.g. take the Others and their baby bastard connection. It would fit, if they would look for the reincarnation of a bastard. However, I do not see the existence of a "wheel of time". Maybe a wheel of rebirth. Be it through the trees or by other means.