Heresy 213 Death aint what it used to be

[Matthew.]

16 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

In Dance, Mel mentions her powders that can do many things. It is my interpretation that she caused Stannis to see what he saw in the flames to manipulate him into action.

I think that's a fair possibility, since - along those same lines - it seems likely to me that the whole thing with the burning of the three leeches was something of a performance on Mel's part--that it was meant to "prove" to Stannis that there is power in king's blood, when she probably had already foreseen the imminent deaths of the three respective kings within her fires, and was able to frame the whole thing as evidence of R'hllor's power.

[Melifeather]

On 9/6/2018 at 4:37 AM, SirArthur said:

The "reborn" theme is certainly in the books and the idea of rebirth is strong. Be it "reborn", "come again" or even the Rhaegar quote from my signature. 

E.g. take the Others and their baby bastard connection. It would fit, if they would look for the reincarnation of a bastard. However, I do not see the existence of a "wheel of time". Maybe a wheel of rebirth. Be it through the trees or by other means. 

The people of Westeros don't necessarily refer to the wheel of time as being something that is manipulated. They just accept it as "normal", but the comments referencing the rebirths, reborns, etc are indications that they understand that these things are occurring. It's also the basis of prophecy. It might even be said that prophecy isn't truly some magical gift, but rather a thorough understanding and education in history. If you recognize patterns - that certain events happen in predictable cycles, then you can assert with relative confidence that something specific will occur in the immediate future - and then when it happens, the people less observant will think you have psychic abilities.

[alienarea]

7 hours ago, SirArthur said:

The "reborn" theme is certainly in the books and the idea of rebirth is strong. Be it "reborn", "come again" or even the Rhaegar quote from my signature. 

E.g. take the Others and their baby bastard connection. It would fit, if they would look for the reincarnation of a bastard. However, I do not see the existence of a "wheel of time". Maybe a wheel of rebirth. Be it through the trees or by other means. 

What about rebirth by name? A certain Brandon Stark comes to mind.

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The people of Westeros don't necessarily refer to the wheel of time as being something that is manipulated. They just accept it as "normal", but the comments referencing the rebirths, reborns, etc are indications that they understand that these things are occurring. It's also the basis of prophecy. It might even be said that prophecy isn't truly some magical gift, but rather a thorough understanding and education in history. If you recognize patterns - that certain events happen in predictable cycles, then you can assert with relative confidence that something specific will occur in the immediate future and then it happens, the people less observant will think you have psychic abilities.

GRRM has included some multi-verse hints, but I keep bouncing between the choices: many-worlds interpretation, cyclical time with variations (longer versions the Sorrows time loops) or cycles in which descendants of specific bloodlines assume destined roles. Lately I am leaning for this third option.

For example we have the dead/revenge spirit represented by Arya that I believe was mirrored less successfully by Lyanna and we see some echoes in the woman emerging from the pool in Bran's vision.

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

What about rebirth by name? A certain Brandon Stark comes to mind.

Just call a random baby Azor Ahai then and Mel will have her prophecy. 

[Brad Stark]

Am I the only one who finds it significant that the woman was bathing in the pool? This is a religious place, not a place to wash up, and she comes out praying. 

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Am I the only one who finds it significant that the woman was bathing in the pool? This is a religious place, not a place to wash up, and she comes out praying. 

It sounds like a cleansing ritual, but we have to remember that Osha bathes in the pool too.

Quote

“How can you swim in there?” he asked Osha. “Isn’t it cold?”

“As a babe I suckled on icicles, boy. I like the cold.” Osha swam to the rocks and rose dripping. She was naked, her skin bumpy with gooseprickles. Summer crept close and sniffed at her. “I wanted to touch the bottom.”

“I never knew there was a bottom.”

“Might be there isn’t.” She grinned. “What are you staring at, boy? Never seen a woman before?”

Of course we can be suspicious on why Osha was swiming there.

[Janneyc1]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Am I the only one who finds it significant that the woman was bathing in the pool? This is a religious place, not a place to wash up, and she comes out praying. 

Osha bathed and seems to have a connection to the Old Gods, perhaps the bathing has something to do with the Old Gods. Who knows, maybe the Old Gods are pervs. 

[Black Crow]

Hodor went bathing there too and if I recall more than once

[SirArthur]

Jolly good, that the steward of Winterfell is a Poole then. 

 

Also, what is a rainbow pool ?

"Call it what you will, my lord. Knights have been arriving from all over the realm, and for every knight we get two freeriders, three craftsmen, six men-at-arms, a dozen merchants, two dozen whores, and more thieves than I dare guess. This cursed heat had half the city in a fever to start, and now with all these visitors … last night we had a drowning, a tavern riot, three knife fights, a rape, two fires, robberies beyond count, and a drunken horse race down the Street of the Sisters. The night before a woman's head was found in the Great Sept, floating in the rainbow pool. No one seems to know how it got there or who it belongs to." - aGoT, Ned IV

The rainbow pool in the Great Sept "comes again":

Dawn caught Jaime almost unawares. As the glass in the dome began to lighten, suddenly there were rainbows shimmering off the walls and floors and pillars, bathing Lord Tywin's corpse in a haze of many-colored light. The King's Hand was rotting visibly. His face had taken on a greenish tinge, and his eyes were deeply sunken, two black pits. Fissures had opened in his cheeks, and a foul white fluid was seeping through the joints of his splendid gold-and-crimson armor to pool beneath his body. - A Feast for Crows , Jaime I

So, is the rainbow pool in the Great Sept in the same room as Tywin's corpse ? Or is the glass creating the rainbow in a pool in the Great Sept ?

[Janneyc1]

5 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Jolly good, that the steward of Winterfell is a Poole then. 

 

Also, what is a rainbow pool ?

"Call it what you will, my lord. Knights have been arriving from all over the realm, and for every knight we get two freeriders, three craftsmen, six men-at-arms, a dozen merchants, two dozen whores, and more thieves than I dare guess. This cursed heat had half the city in a fever to start, and now with all these visitors … last night we had a drowning, a tavern riot, three knife fights, a rape, two fires, robberies beyond count, and a drunken horse race down the Street of the Sisters. The night before a woman's head was found in the Great Sept, floating in the rainbow pool. No one seems to know how it got there or who it belongs to." - aGoT, Ned IV

The rainbow pool in the Great Sept "comes again":

Dawn caught Jaime almost unawares. As the glass in the dome began to lighten, suddenly there were rainbows shimmering off the walls and floors and pillars, bathing Lord Tywin's corpse in a haze of many-colored light. The King's Hand was rotting visibly. His face had taken on a greenish tinge, and his eyes were deeply sunken, two black pits. Fissures had opened in his cheeks, and a foul white fluid was seeping through the joints of his splendid gold-and-crimson armor to pool beneath his body. - A Feast for Crows , Jaime I

So, is the rainbow pool in the Great Sept in the same room as Tywin's corpse ? Or is the glass creating the rainbow in a pool in the Great Sept ?

My thought is that it is a reflection pool that light is filtered into. The Great Sept I think has been described as having stained glass, which would create the different colors that we see. I could see them being in the same room, but not the same place in the same room. 

[Brad Stark]

Osha and Hodor do both bathe in the same pool, however they do not come out praying, which is very different from a quick wash or swim.

[Janneyc1]

23 hours ago, Tucu said:

GRRM has included some multi-verse hints, but I keep bouncing between the choices: many-worlds interpretation, cyclical time with variations (longer versions the Sorrows time loops) or cycles in which descendants of specific bloodlines assume destined roles. Lately I am leaning for this third option.

For example we have the dead/revenge spirit represented by Arya that I believe was mirrored less successfully by Lyanna and we see some echoes in the woman emerging from the pool in Bran's vision.

So in the Ironborn section of the World book, there is a Prince, one Prince Harlan, who is almost a copy of Euron Greyjoy. Even hired the faceless man to kill his brother. 

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

So in the Ironborn section of the World book, there is a Prince, one Prince Harlan, who is almost a copy of Euron Greyjoy. Even hired the faceless man to kill his brother. 

Checking the world book...Harlan was the one probably killed by the Faceless Men. The killer was Harwyn Hoare who became the first King of the Isles and the Rivers. He was the granfather of Black Harren who built Harrenhal.

Is this leading to Euron conquering the riverlands?

[JNR]

On 9/5/2018 at 12:44 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Stannis' shadow assassin was formed from Stannis' dark desire of killing his brother because his brother stood in the way of something Stannis desired, the forces of the Reach and the Stormlands.

Well, he'd wanted Storm's End all along, ever since he was given Dragonstone and Renly was given Storm's End by Robert following the Rebellion.

But wanting it wasn't enough.  It wasn't until Renly crowned himself in flat defiance of the order of succession -- Stannis being the elder Baratheon, and thus Robert's heir, as Ned also recognized and stated in writing -- that Stannis moved against Renly.  And while Mel wasn't around earlier, he could certainly have hired an assassin of some sort.

We're reminded of Renly's treason multiple times, including Stannis himself.  For instance, here's Stannis from the ACOK prologue:

Quote

"Who maesters for Renly? Perchance I should send for him, I might like his counsel better. What do you think this maester said when my brother decided to steal my crown? What counsel did your colleague offer to this traitor blood of mine?"

Or this, after Renly dies:

Quote

The king gave a shake of his head, like a dog shaking a rabbit to snap its neck. "Only Renly could vex me so with a piece of fruit. He brought his doom on himself with his treason, but I did love him, Davos."

That's pretty direct stuff.  Davos also takes the same line I did, re the hard but fair business:

Quote

"Lord Renly will be glad to hear this."

"Renly was a traitor in arms. Edric Storm is innocent of any crime. His Grace is a just man."

Of course we'll never know what would actually have happened to Edric, because Davos solved that problem, but I think Davos' opinion as given above is the correct one from Stannis' own POV. 

Meaning Stannis has rules and he plays by them.  Those rules don't include burning his sole heir, a little girl, alive, as far as I can see.  (A shame we didn't have Stannis running America's FBI in 2016.  People who followed the rules would have served their country much better.)

Sansa, btw, sees Renly this way also:

Quote

Joffrey's father King Robert had worn antlers on his helm, Sansa remembered . . . but so did his uncle Lord Renly, Robert's brother, who had turned traitor and crowned himself king.

As for Penrose, he was Renly's loyal instrument in holding Storm's End against Stannis, and hence a traitor too... much as (for instance) Mace Tyrell would have been a traitor in Robert's eyes, if he had for some reason continued holding the Reach against Robert, out of loyalty to the Targ dynasty once Robert was king, instead of acknowledging Robert as his true sovereign.

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

Sansa, btw, sees Renly this way also:

Quote

Joffrey's father King Robert had worn antlers on his helm, Sansa remembered . . . but so did his uncle Lord Renly, Robert's brother, who had turned traitor and crowned himself king.

As for Penrose, he was Renly's loyal instrument in holding Storm's End against Stannis, and hence a traitor too... much as (for instance) Mace Tyrell would have been a traitor in Robert's eyes, if he had for some reason continued holding the Reach against Robert, out of loyalty to the Targ dynasty once Robert was king, instead of acknowledging Robert as his true sovereign.

Sansa's thoughts could be indicating that Renly was a traitor to Joffrey's throne, not Stannis' claim. She might very well consider Stannis a traitor to Joffrey's throne as well. 

And Penrose seemed willing to give Stannis Storm's End. The text seems to indicate he would have surrendered the castle and walked away, as long as he could take Edric Storm with him. Edric was the sticking point. Penrose never denied that Stannis was king, nor denied he had a right to Storm's End or even the Iron Throne. But for some reason he didn't trust why Stannis wanted Edric. That was something that Stannis would not allow Penrose to do, because Stannis felt like he needed Edric. Now, he could have just wanted Edric to prove how much Robert's children should look like their father, the black hair, the blue eyes. But it seems like the reason that Stannis is adamant about claiming Edric is more than just how much the boy looked like Robert, or that is Davos' impression, as we get this exchange from his POV. Of course, Davos is pretty anti-Mel, so his POV could be a bit unreliable on this matter as well.

I don't know if Stannis is capable of giving his own daughter and heir to the flames, but the text does tell us that he is willing to consider a sacrifice of one child for the good of the realm. That child seems to be Edric, but it might not always be Edric that is the possible sacrifice. And I agree that we will never know what choice Stannis might have made in the case of Edric. He might very well have denied Mel what she wanted. I think GRRM just is planting the idea that it's possible that Shireen (as well as Edric) could be in danger of this possible fate, whether Stannis (or GRRM) will actually pull the trigger is only a possibility at this time.

Shireen's dreams of dragon's eating her is very interesting. Dany also had dreams of a dragon chasing her, but the flames that she ended up being engulfed in was not dragon fire, but Drogo's pyre. Shireen might be engulfed by flames as well, just a bit different than her dreams. And it certainly might have nothing to do with Stannis' orders. 

[Brad Stark]

Selyse always seemed to me like the one to burn Shireen, but Stannis is not the man he used to be, and might give a lot less opposition than he would have at the start of the story.  Melisandre has to see this as well and I wonder how long before her belief in him waivers. 

It would be even more interesting if Selyse burns Shireen on her own without Mel around. 

If you believe Jon is a Targaryen, could his resurrection be waking a dragon? 

[St Daga]

6 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

If you believe Jon is a Targaryen, could his resurrection be waking a dragon? 

This is a possibility of course, and is certainly favored by many people, but I don't favor Jon for being a Targaryen. He seems to be so much related to ice and winter and his Stark roots, but the story does tease us with ice dragons, so it could be a combination of ice and fire in Jon the Ice Dragon, I suppose. But, would an Ice Dragon be born of fire resurrection? That's another doubt I see in the idea of Jon's resurrection (at all) by fire. But I don't personally see Jon as needing a resurrection, so I might just be self-blinded to this possibility! 

 

[Brad Stark]

Speaking of waking dragons, Summer sees one at the end of acok.  I've been looking for signs of it since, but nothing. 

[St Daga]

7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Speaking of waking dragons, Summer sees one at the end of acok.  I've been looking for signs of it since, but nothing. 

Is that a dragon? It's hard to say since it's from Summer's POV, but it sure sounds like one. A great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame? I think it probably is, but what is it doing at Winterfell? Summer bares his teeth at it, because it's an enemy or just an unknown? Did it come seeking fire and death? Did it escape from somewhere under Winterfell (this is my guess)? Some people think it could be Drogon, but that seems awful far for him to range, and at this point, Dany is still in Qarth with very young dragons, so I don't think this could be Drogon. There are reports of dragons (ice dragons, I think) over the Shivering Sea. Is this that dragon? Could it be one of the missing Targaryan dragons, which are Sheepstealer, Cannibal and Silverwing are at least unaccounted for.