Jump to content

Heresy 213 Death aint what it used to be


Black Crow

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

We might not have a direct line of lineage to tie the Manderly's to Garth Greenhand, but just their name indicates they did indeed come from the Reach. The family even claims that the Mander river was named for them, not the other way around. But it is possible that the Stark's and Manderly's do share some ancient bloodline. It makes sense that a reveal of the Manderly's and Stark's sharing blood might reveal to much about the endgame. The Greystark's rose in rebellion against the Stark's and their lands were given to the Manderly's to hold, among many other families. I personally think that House Manderly has been plotting against House Stark quite stealthily for some time, which would mirror House Greystark. 

The New Castle that the Manderly's built in White Harbor is said to resemble their reach stronghold of Dunstonbury. This name reminds me a bit about Glastonbury, which of course ties to the idea of King Arthur and this story does have some King Arthur/Excalibur imagery. Glastonbury Abbey lies near Glastonbury Tor.  A roofless tower sit's on the great tor, and I have speculated that a tor is important part of the mystery of the tower of joy, although I am not at all sold on it's location in Westeros. Perhaps the reach? I believe it was you, @SirArthur who mentioned Glastonbury in connection to my tor speculation.

Interestingly, the Wolf's Den, which is important in Stark history and was given to the Manderly's to hold when they came north, is noted to have crumbling black walls. The stone is never mentioned but perhaps this is basalt, too! 

Hmm, I have never seen the Dunstonbury - Glastonbury similarity. This is definitly worth some thought and more research. 

As to names, GRRM has told us, that he has problems finding new names and even tried online name generators. I guess Mel and Val is also no coincidence.

Also Melisandre, Valyrians.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Suppose the original King of Winter was a dragonlord, similar to the Valyrians but ice instead of fire.  A Stark, who was a First Man, killed him and married his daughters.  Now you have a first man culture and blood in with a bloodline like the Targaryens. 

Winterfell is similar architecture to Dragonstone but different architecture, material and technology.  Suppose someone from Valyria left and built their own fortress in the style of their home as well as they could using local resources.  Or suppose Winterfell is what Valyria looked like in the beginning before they learned to fuse stone. 

This could work with the concept of Stark's defeating enemies and assuming their roles and lands. We do see cycle's of history repeating, and that is how the Stark's are known to have conquered vast areas of the north, so why not in the very beginning, as well. Except my thoughts are that the original structure of Winterfell was built down into the earth, not above ground. It could have been a more simple motte and bailey type of castle. The uneven ground at Winterfell might suit this type of castle well. However, the First Keep is round and that is not the style of the First Men, so who built it, and how old is it? Maybe it's older than it seems? The inner wall is said to be 2000 years old, and the world book hints that some of the castle might be even older than that. How long can such a place stand?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, St Daga said:

We might not have a direct line of lineage to tie the Manderly's to Garth Greenhand, but just their name indicates they did indeed come from the Reach. The family even claims that the Mander river was named for them, not the other way around. But it is possible that the Stark's and Manderly's do share some ancient bloodline. It makes sense that a reveal of the Manderly's and Stark's sharing blood might reveal to much about the endgame. The Greystark's rose in rebellion against the Stark's and their lands were given to the Manderly's to hold, among many other families. I personally think that House Manderly has been plotting against House Stark quite stealthily for some time, which would mirror House Greystark. 

I ah, believe in the inversions, so I'm expecting the Manderlys to turn against the Boltons at the last minute and do a reverse Red Wedding. "Stannis Baratheon sends his regards...."

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

Didn't this capability originate in Asshai? I guess that is unclear. It's said that dragons are said to originate in "the Shadow" which ties to the area around Asshai. So, perhaps you are correct to tie the art of dragon hatching to a magic that the people of Valyria used to gain immense power. Not just dragon binding, but dragon hatching! Doesn't the world book claim that it was people from Asshai who taught the Valyrian's the secrets of dragonbinding?

Asshai is said to be made of a black stone that seems to drink the sun, which is another interesting black stone in our story. And the roof of the House of the Undying in Qarth has black tiles that seem to drink the sun. Davos notes that Mel's ruby seems to drink the sunlight. Perhaps some of this sorcery power that causes item's to "drink the sun" are part of the Azor Ahai mythos. A sword that is said to burn red might be something that could be seen to drink the sun's heat or fire!

 

Val's seeming eye change from grey to blue is intriguing. Why do her eyes look different to Jon? Is his perception of her changing, as he grows more bewitched by her, in the same way that he seems to think she is more lovely each time he looks at her. Or did her eye's actually change color, which certainly ties to a power like we see with the Other's and the wights.

I agree that Val has a lot of Night's Queen imagery about her. And Jon does seem to want her. But the one person who promotes the idea that she is a princess and worthy of marriage is Stannis. It is he who wants to bind the power of the north through a marriage to her (to someone of his choosing) and it is Stannis who will hold the Nightfort, not Jon. I have wondered if by some twist of fate Stannis could take Val as a wife. Would he set Selyse aside, much in the way that Robert was rumored to have wished to set Cersei aside? We see that Stannis is  susceptible to Mel's charms, so is it possible he could do the same with Val? Honestly, I trust Val's motives no further than I trust Mel's motives, although, I would think that Val recognizes Jon's power is in part because of his Stark blood. Mostly just thinking on the fly here, and have no idea if something like this could actually work in the text. 

 

 

The origin of dragonlords is unknown, but they were people "strong in sorcery".  I guess its possible that they brought dragons and sorcery from Asshai to Valyria. Either that or their sorcery was used to turn firewyrms into dragons? 

Quote

 

She never told the kindly man what she had done, yet he knew. The next night he came to her cell after supper. “Child,” he said, “come sit with me. I have a tale to tell you.”

  “What kind of tale?” she asked, wary.

  “The tale of our beginnings. If you would be one of us, you had best know who we are and how we came to be. Men may whisper of the Faceless Men of Braavos, but we are older than the Secret City. Before the Titan rose, before the Unmasking of Uthero, before the Founding, we were. We have flowered in Braavos amongst these northern fogs, but we first took root in Valyria, amongst the wretched slaves who toiled in the deep mines beneath the Fourteen Flames that lit the Freehold’s nights of old. Most mines are dank and chilly places, cut from cold dead stone, but the Fourteen Flames were living mountains with veins of molten rock and hearts of fire. So the mines of old Valyria were always hot, and they grew hotter as the shafts were driven deeper, ever deeper. The slaves toiled in an oven. The rocks around them were too hot to touch. The air stank of brimstone and would sear their lungs as they breathed it. The soles of their feet would burn and blister, even through the thickest sandals. Sometimes, when they broke through a wall in search of gold, they would find steam instead, or boiling water, or molten rock. Certain shafts were cut so low that the slaves could not stand upright, but had to crawl or bend. And there were wyrms in that red darkness too.”

  “Earthworms?” she asked, frowning.

  “Firewyrms. Some say they are akin to dragons, for wyrms breathe fire too. Instead of soaring through the sky, they bore through stone and soil. If the old tales can be believed, there were wyrms amongst the Fourteen Flames even before the dragons came. The young ones are no larger than that skinny arm of yours, but they can grow to monstrous size and have no love for men.”

  “Did they kill the slaves?”

  “Burnt and blackened corpses were oft found in shafts where the rocks were cracked or full of holes. Yet still the mines drove deeper. Slaves perished by the score, but their masters did not care. Red gold and yellow gold and silver were reckoned to be more precious than the lives of slaves, for slaves were cheap in the old Freehold. During war, the Valyrians took them by the thousands. In times of peace they bred them, though only the worst were sent down to die in the red darkness.”

  “Didn’t the slaves rise up and fight?”

  “Some did,” he said. “Revolts were common in the mines, but few accomplished much. The dragonlords of the old Freehold were strong in sorcery, and lesser men defied them at their peril. The first Faceless Man was one who did.”

  “Who was he?” Arya blurted, before she stopped to think.

  “No one,” he answered. “Some say he was a slave himself. Others insist he was a freeholder’s son, born of noble stock. Some will even tell you he was an overseer who took pity on his charges. The truth is, no one knows. Whoever he was, he moved amongst the slaves and would hear them at their prayers. Men of a hundred different nations labored in the mines, and each prayed to his own god in his own tongue, yet all were praying for the same thing. It was release they asked for, an end to pain. A small thing, and simple. Yet their gods made no answer, and their suffering went on. Are their gods all deaf? he wondered . . . until a realization came upon him, one night in the red darkness.

  “All gods have their instruments, men and women who serve them and help to work their will on earth. The slaves were not crying out to a hundred different gods, as it seemed, but to one god with a hundred different faces . . . and he was that god’s instrument. That very night he chose the most wretched of the slaves, the one who had prayed most earnestly for release, and freed him from his bondage. The first gift had been given.”

  Arya drew back from him. “He killed the slave?” That did not sound right. “He should have killed the masters!”

  “He would bring the gift to them as well . . . but that is a tale for another day, one best shared with no one.” 

 

 

While I agree that Stannis holding the Nightfort is more like the Nights King than Jon, I think it's important to recall the history of the Nights King. The Lord of Winterfell joined with the King Beyond the Wall and brought the Nights King down. I believe in the inversions, so this time the Nights King will defeat the Lord of Winterfell. I think Stannis is more likely to be a repeat of King Sherrit, the ancient king who called a curse down upon the Andals while at the Nightfort. Perhaps that "curse" is letting the white walkers and wights through the Wall?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Hmm, I have never seen the Dunstonbury - Glastonbury similarity. This is definitly worth some thought and more research. 

As to names, GRRM has told us, that he has problems finding new names and even tried online name generators. I guess Mel and Val is also no coincidence.

Also Melisandre, Valyrians.

I suppose it is very hard to come up with names, so perhaps I am seeing connections where none exist. Until yesterday, I had never really looked into the backstory of the Manderly's. Today I am wondering about little Wylla Manderly and her green-dyed hair. Today it occurs to me that Garth Greenhand is also known by the name Garth Greenhair, so perhaps Wylla's hair choice is paying homage to a great ancestor.

I have always wondered about Val and Dalla and the similarity to Valhalla. Valhalla is the feast hall of Odin, where chosen warriors get to spend their afterlife. And they are chosen and escorted their by Valkyrie's, power women with magic qualities who are sometimes associated with ravens, swans and horses. Val seems to have a connection to her one-eyed horse (a nod again to Odin?).

Speaking of possible name connections: Swan's also stick out to me because of Rose of Red Lake, a daughter of Garth Greenhand, is said to be associated with cranes, and led to the founding of House Crane, a family with skinchanger ability. Cranes and swan's are similar types of birds, and I have also wondered about House Stark being descended from her. Stark and stork are very similar words, and stork's, cranes and swans all fit into that category of large water birds. So does an egret (Ygritte?). (I perhaps have been drinking the cracked-pot koolaid, again!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I ah, believe in the inversions, so I'm expecting the Manderlys to turn against the Boltons at the last minute and do a reverse Red Wedding. "Stannis Baratheon sends his regards...."

The story is already being set up that Wyman is plotting against Roose, and that Roose suspects betrayal from Wyman. So, if this happens, it would not be unexpected. It's actually quite expected. And what wedding would this happen at? If Wyman was going to do this, then fArya's wedding to Ramsey would be perfect, but that opportunity slides by.

It would not surprise me at all to find that he Manderly's and Bolton's joined up to topple the Stark's, but now they have caused a bit of a power vacuum and are fighting each other for control of the north. The Bolton's are the more obvious enemy, but I think there is a more dangerous enemy in the north. There are some odd things about the Manderly's. During the red wedding chapter, Wendel is noted three times to be holding a leg of lamb, which symbol also shows up in Dany's house of the undying dream. A leg of lamb is interesting because sacrifice is often associated with sheep and lambs. Abraham is asked by God to sacrifice his son Isaac, but at the last minute, God sends a ram (sometimes this sacrifice is a lamb) and Abraham sacrifices that beast instead. However, in this case, I think Wyman made a sacrifice of a younger family member, Wendel, to rise in power. Wyman might be to fat to sit a horse but he is a smart man, I think. It seems like the Manderly's overstepped themselves in the reach, were banished and had to flee the Reach. I think this could be happening again, but in the north.

Quote

Jon told Sam what he had seen and heard in Craster's Keep.

By the time the telling was done, it was dark outside and Sam was licking his fingers. "That was good, but now I'd like a leg of lamb. A whole leg, just for me, sauced with mint and honey and cloves. Did you see any lambs?"
 
"There was a sheepfold, but no sheep." ACOK-Jon III

Craster has no lambs or sheep left probably because he has given them all the to the Other's. Here, Sam and Jon eat the second rabbit that Ghost stole from Gilly (which is also full of symbolism, I think). Sam is a fat man who has eaten but still wants more. I think this could symbolize Wyman Manderly and the sacrifice he is willing to make.

Off the top of my head, something that stood out to be in my last reread was this passage:

Quote

The Bastard's backhand caught him square, and his cheekbone shattered with a sickening crunch beneath the lobstered steel. The world vanished in a red roar of pain.

Sometime later, Theon found himself on the ground. He rolled onto his stomach and swallowed a mouthful of blood. Close the gates! he tried to shout, but it was too late. The Dreadfort men had cut down Red Rolfe and Kenned, and more were pouring through, a river of mail and sharp swords. There was a ringing in his ears, and horror all around him. Black Lorren had his sword out, but there were already four of them pressing in on him. He saw Ulf go down with a crossbow bolt through the belly as he ran for the Great Hall. Maester Luwin was trying to reach him when a knight on a warhorse planted a spear between his shoulders, then swung back to ride over him. Another man whipped a torch round and round his head and then lofted it toward the thatched roof of the stables. "Save me the Freys," the Bastard was shouting as the flames roared upward, "and burn the rest. Burn it, burn it all."
 
The last thing Theon Greyjoy saw was Smiler, kicking free of the burning stables with his mane ablaze, screaming, rearing ... ACOL-Theon VI

Theon is seeing many things here, but he notes that Luwin was speared by a knight on a warhorse, who then swung back to ride over him. Lined up outside Winterfell in Ser Rodrik's ranks are knights from House Manderly. Knights are not common in the north, and since Roose holds to the old gods, I doubt any of the dreadfort men are considered knights. Warriors on horses, yes, but not knights. It is House Manderly who has the knights. And it was a knight that was determined to kill Luwin. Even if you don't like the citadel, Maester's are important to castles and communication. Killing Luwin makes no sense except he would be able to tell what he saw at that battle. I think this is another subtle sign that House Manderly was working with the Bolton's to take the Stark's down.  We don't know what happened with those warriors after the battle, but we are told that some had escaped the battle grounds, and I believe we will find out from their stories that the Manderly's turned in the middle of the battle, just as Ramsay Boltons men did. Rodrik never had a chance.  I think the Manderly/Bolton plotting over Lady Hornwood was to show us early that these two houses were conniving together but attempting to look like enemies to throw people of the scent of their conniving. It's my own tinfoil but I have a hard time not being highly suspicious of Wyman Manderly and his actions.

 

** The leg of lamb also comes up in Tyrion's chapter where he his a prisoner in the vale. He is given beans for supper but want's a leg of lamb. Tyrion will want revenge for his imprisonment and that leg of lamb and the Red Wedding could be symbolic of Lannister revenge. However, that seems to be Tywin's plot, not Tyrion's, so it doesn't work as well for me.

 

 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

 The inner wall is said to be 2000 years old, and the world book hints that some of the castle might be even older than that. How long can such a place stand?

One working conclusion would then be, that the gargoyles were added later. They seem to come from the same period as the forging of the earliest Valyrian swords, like Ice or (if we want to believe it) Longclaw. The 500 years of Longclaw seem to work nicely together with Dragonstone and the gargoyles. 

 

edit: 2000 years is possible, there are some (existing) roman buildings in europe of that age. Also most cathedrals are about that age. And most buildings were brought down, because the stone was needed elsewhere. Even roman buildings sometimes use older stones. 

Which in contrast, makes Moat Cailin look pretty weird. Did the stones and buildings just vanish ? There is nothing else in the area. Stone usually keeps standing, unless a powerful force moves it or the material is used somewhere. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Speaking of possible name connections: Swan's also stick out to me because of Rose of Red Lake, a daughter of Garth Greenhand, is said to be associated with cranes, and led to the founding of House Crane, a family with skinchanger ability. Cranes and swan's are similar types of birds, and I have also wondered about House Stark being descended from her. Stark and stork are very similar words, and stork's, cranes and swans all fit into that category of large water birds. So does an egret (Ygritte?). (I perhaps have been drinking the cracked-pot koolaid, again!)

So you suggest Brandon of the bloody blade was not a Stark ? Instead Brandon Stork was the founder of house Stark ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

The story is already being set up that Wyman is plotting against Roose, and that Roose suspects betrayal from Wyman. So, if this happens, it would not be unexpected. It's actually quite expected. And what wedding would this happen at? If Wyman was going to do this, then fArya's wedding to Ramsey would be perfect, but that opportunity slides by.

It would not surprise me at all to find that he Manderly's and Bolton's joined up to topple the Stark's, but now they have caused a bit of a power vacuum and are fighting each other for control of the north. The Bolton's are the more obvious enemy, but I think there is a more dangerous enemy in the north. There are some odd things about the Manderly's. During the red wedding chapter, Wendel is noted three times to be holding a leg of lamb, which symbol also shows up in Dany's house of the undying dream. A leg of lamb is interesting because sacrifice is often associated with sheep and lambs. Abraham is asked by God to sacrifice his son Isaac, but at the last minute, God sends a ram (sometimes this sacrifice is a lamb) and Abraham sacrifices that beast instead. However, in this case, I think Wyman made a sacrifice of a younger family member, Wendel, to rise in power. Wyman might be to fat to sit a horse but he is a smart man, I think. It seems like the Manderly's overstepped themselves in the reach, were banished and had to flee the Reach. I think this could be happening again, but in the north.

Craster has no lambs or sheep left probably because he has given them all the to the Other's. Here, Sam and Jon eat the second rabbit that Ghost stole from Gilly (which is also full of symbolism, I think). Sam is a fat man who has eaten but still wants more. I think this could symbolize Wyman Manderly and the sacrifice he is willing to make.

Off the top of my head, something that stood out to be in my last reread was this passage:

Theon is seeing many things here, but he notes that Luwin was speared by a knight on a warhorse, who then swung back to ride over him. Lined up outside Winterfell in Ser Rodrik's ranks are knights from House Manderly. Knights are not common in the north, and since Roose holds to the old gods, I doubt any of the dreadfort men are considered knights. Warriors on horses, yes, but not knights. It is House Manderly who has the knights. And it was a knight that was determined to kill Luwin. Even if you don't like the citadel, Maester's are important to castles and communication. Killing Luwin makes no sense except he would be able to tell what he saw at that battle. I think this is another subtle sign that House Manderly was working with the Bolton's to take the Stark's down.  We don't know what happened with those warriors after the battle, but we are told that some had escaped the battle grounds, and I believe we will find out from their stories that the Manderly's turned in the middle of the battle, just as Ramsay Boltons men did. Rodrik never had a chance.  I think the Manderly/Bolton plotting over Lady Hornwood was to show us early that these two houses were conniving together but attempting to look like enemies to throw people of the scent of their conniving. It's my own tinfoil but I have a hard time not being highly suspicious of Wyman Manderly and his actions.

 

** The leg of lamb also comes up in Tyrion's chapter where he his a prisoner in the vale. He is given beans for supper but want's a leg of lamb. Tyrion will want revenge for his imprisonment and that leg of lamb and the Red Wedding could be symbolic of Lannister revenge. However, that seems to be Tywin's plot, not Tyrion's, so it doesn't work as well for me.

 

 

A reversal of the Red Wedding would mean that the host dies instead of the guests, and the people killed need to be Freys. This is a revenge kill. Everyone is at Winterfell, because they were invited to Ramsay's wedding to fArya. The Boltons believe that Wyman's main beef and tensions lay with the Freys. Roose tries to defuse this tension by sending Manderly men out to engage Stannis, but I think Wyman intends to parlay with Stannis. At the parlay Stannis will learn that Rickon is still alive - which should help Theon, and Wyman will offer to help Stannis from the inside. 

Wyman put on a great show of loyalty to Roose at White Harbor when he had Davos, but after the Frey envoys left, he freed Davos and sent him to go find Rikon in a secret plot to unite the north against the Boltons and Freys. Then the missing Frey envoys were presumably captured shortly after, and turned into pies, which were then served at the Bolton wedding - a gift to the Freys and Boltons signalling Manderly's intentions. The Manderlys are a Trojan Horse. Do you honestly believe that Wyman is plotting a double-fake here, and that his true intentions are to turn on the Starks? That doesn't make a bit sense!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

So you suggest Brandon of the bloody blade was not a Stark ? Instead Brandon Stork was the founder of house Stark ?

:blink: ... :uhoh: ... :lol: It's seems laughable but I just questioned the name similarities between crane's and storks. And no, Brandon of the Bloody Blade probably had no last name, except perhaps Garthson's, but his children might have carried such a name if they came from Rose of the skin-changer ability. But our Bran does have some hint's of flight about him, and perhaps that has nothing to do with ravens or dragons, but something else. I admit I have a hard time with this idea, it's mostly just a name connection that I am playing with. :dunno:  This idea is probably a load of crap, honestly!

 

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

One working conclusion would then be, that the gargoyles were added later. They seem to come from the same period as the forging of the earliest Valyrian swords, like Ice or (if we want to believe it) Longclaw. The 500 years of Longclaw seem to work nicely together with Dragonstone and the gargoyles. 

If so, why would the Stark's add gargoyles to their castle?  I admit the age of some of these buildings is a bit hard to swallow. Storm's End is ancient if Brandon the Builder helped with it. I suppose parts of Winterfell could be that old, too.

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Which in contrast, makes Moat Cailin look pretty weird. Did the stones and buildings just vanish ? There is nothing else in the area. Stone usually keeps standing, unless a powerful force moves it or the material is used somewhere. 

Perhaps the stones were carried away to build another important castle in the north. Where do the stones that built Winterfell come from? Or even just the outerwall, which is newer than the inner wall. Also, Moat Cailin is in a bog, so perhaps the ground just swallowed the stones up. But it's more likely that many of those structures were not built of stone, although Cat does make a distinction when pointing out that the keep at Moat Cailin was made of wood. She doesn't state anything about the towers that are missing. I do think Moat Cailin and it's missing towers are a candidate for the role of the tower of joy in Ned's dream, or at least the "tower long fallen", although I see no evidence of tor's in this area of the north, or a ridge to place cairns on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

Theon is seeing many things here, but he notes that Luwin was speared by a knight on a warhorse, who then swung back to ride over him. Lined up outside Winterfell in Ser Rodrik's ranks are knights from House Manderly. Knights are not common in the north, and since Roose holds to the old gods, I doubt any of the dreadfort men are considered knights. Warriors on horses, yes, but not knights. It is House Manderly who has the knights. And it was a knight that was determined to kill Luwin. Even if you don't like the citadel, Maester's are important to castles and communication. Killing Luwin makes no sense except he would be able to tell what he saw at that battle. I think this is another subtle sign that House Manderly was working with the Bolton's to take the Stark's down. 

A knight could just be a hint at a southron support force. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GRRM wanted to stretch the time line of his world, so we have lots of thousand year old buildings, and this cost realism.  Of course, we have lots of cities that have been around for thousands of years, but new buildings replace old buildings, and buildings that stay around are renovated.  Is there even 1 heavily used building in our world that is a thousand years in the same form?  Things like the pyramids don't count, they are only used for tourism. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM wanted to stretch the time line of his world, so we have lots of thousand year old buildings, and this cost realism.  Of course, we have lots of cities that have been around for thousands of years, but new buildings replace old buildings, and buildings that stay around are renovated.  Is there even 1 heavily used building in our world that is a thousand years in the same form?  Things like the pyramids don't count, they are only used for tourism. 

I don't know what counts as heavily used. this ?

 

Also bridges are fairly common

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM wanted to stretch the time line of his world, so we have lots of thousand year old buildings, and this cost realism.  Of course, we have lots of cities that have been around for thousands of years, but new buildings replace old buildings, and buildings that stay around are renovated.  Is there even 1 heavily used building in our world that is a thousand years in the same form?  Things like the pyramids don't count, they are only used for tourism. 

From the past we have examples like the Ziggurat of Ur built in the 21st BCE. By the 6th century BCE it was almost gone but it was rebuilt by Neo-Babylonian Empire. By the 19th century CE it was almost gone again. Saddam Hussein rebuilt it and it was damaged again during the first Gulf War

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/9/2018 at 9:39 PM, Brad Stark said:

Hellhounds are interesting as they link the idea of the Starks association with direwolves and the Starks association with death. 

Simeon Star Eyes sees the hellhounds fighting at the Night Fort and fighting over the Black Gate one assumes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

One working conclusion would then be, that the gargoyles were added later. They seem to come from the same period as the forging of the earliest Valyrian swords, like Ice or (if we want to believe it) Longclaw. The 500 years of Longclaw seem to work nicely together with Dragonstone and the gargoyles

Perhaps the Hungry Wolf brought the concept back from his expedition to Essos. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

That gatehouse is a good example, but illustrates my point.  It is less than the 2000 years of the first keep, in worse shape and probably seen less use. 

I don't think we will find a heavily used building staying the same in the last 200 years. City walls may be our best try before 1800, but even then they either required constant upgrading ( gunpowder ) or were so impressive (like the Theodosian Walls) that they simply were not maintained in the time of no use. 

And yes, I agree. But I think the world has far too few inhabitant for maintaining all the massive castle buildings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm under the impression that the destruction of Moat Cailin was attributed to the after effects of the hammer of waters. If the Children called down their hammer from a tower within Moat Cailin - where did the hammer come down, and where could any resulting tsunami hit? If the target was, not just the Arm of Dorne, but the Iron Islands as well ( like I suspect), then the tsunami would ricochet back, destroying most of Moat Cailin and flooding the Neck.

If the power center was Moat Cailin, then wouldn't the hammer strike spread out in a circular radius?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm under the impression that the destruction of Moat Cailin was attributed to the after effects of the hammer of waters. If the Children called down their hammer from a tower within Moat Cailin - where did the hammer come down, and where could any resulting tsunami hit? If it struck, not just the Arm of Dorne, but the Iron Islands as well ( like I suspect), then the tsunami would reach to the Neck, destroying most of Moat Cailin and flooding the Neck.

If the power center was Moat Cailin, then wouldn't the hammer strike spread out in a circular radius?

 

We don't know how the Hammer works, my theory is it controls small movements of wierwood roots causing earthquakes.  Even if that's wrong, it shows other possibilities. 

We are told the Children didn't build buildings, which is in conflict with the idea they built Moat Caitlin.  We don't have any other examples like Moat Catlin and the Children we've seen live in caves.  I don't think they built Moat Caitlin and it is a good candidate for being built by men before the First Men. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

We don't know how the Hammer works, my theory is it controls small movements of wierwood roots causing earthquakes.  Even if that's wrong, it shows other possibilities. 

We are told the Children didn't build buildings, which is in conflict with the idea they built Moat Caitlin.  We don't have any other examples like Moat Catlin and the Children we've seen live in caves.  I don't think they built Moat Caitlin and it is a good candidate for being built by men before the First Men. 

I didn't mean to imply they built Moat Cailin, just that they called down their hammer from a tower at Moat Cailin. We do know though that they were allies of the First Men, so if the First Men were holding back some enemy at Moat Cailin, then there could have been some Children there with them.

The Ironborn are First Men too, but there is a mention of raiders trying to land by boat, which sounds like the Ironborn culture, so there could have been fighting between various factions of First Men against each other. There could be some First Men aligned with the Children, and some that were not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...