Heresy 213 Death aint what it used to be

[Brad Stark]

6 hours ago, Tucu said:

Most information going beyond ~1250 years have been lost and is just legend. Valyria, the Old Empire of Ghis and the Rhoynar are gone. The oldest we can really get in western Essos is Volantis founded not long before the Rhoynish Wars; these wars expanded a period of 250 years and ended a 1000 years ago. Valyria's "history" also puts several thousand years between the last war with Old Ghis and the first war with the Rhoynar; it doesn't make much sense for an expansionist empire armed with dragons. For comparison, it took Aegon one year to conquer most of Westeros with just 3 dragons; the Freehold had hundredths during the wars with Old Ghis, Andalos and the Rhoynar.

I would say that the 8000 or so years of Valyrian history can be compressed to around a 1000 years or maybe even less if those war expanding centuries are really shorter.

Even the history of the Citadel is just legend and can't be traced much earlier than the Doom of Valyria. Their estimates for the Andal invasion that would establish the arrival of the Common Tongue goes from 2000 years to 6000 years.

 

I discussed the timelines when we had that hearesy, and suspected less time passed than we think.  But even the most compressed timelines puts the Long Night more than three times as far back as the Doom. 

Valyria didn't necessarily expand and conqueror as fast as possible.  They probably lived in peace with their neighbors until they encroached on each other's territory. 

Aegon didn't conqueror Dorne right away and kingdoms like The North didn't resist.  The Rhoynor were a much better opponent than Harren the Black. 

[Tucu]

5 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I discussed the timelines when we had that hearesy, and suspected less time passed than we think.  But even the most compressed timelines puts the Long Night more than three times as far back as the Doom. 

Valyria didn't necessarily expand and conqueror as fast as possible.  They probably lived in peace with their neighbors until they encroached on each other's territory. 

Aegon didn't conqueror Dorne right away and kingdoms like The North didn't resist.  The Rhoynor were a much better opponent than Harren the Black. 

The Rhoynish resistance seems to be greatly exagerated. Their biggest achievement was to kill two dragons with a 250000 army and they were soon wiped out by the 300 dragons Valyria sent. The rest of the wars appear to be skirmishes with Valryian outposts that were quickly ended.

Qarlon "King of All Andals" forces were also wiped out in a very short time. Old Ghis probably suffered a similar fate and the ghiscari just added millenia of legendary glory to their short lived empires. In the real world we have the Sumerians adding ~250000 years worth of kings to what at the time was a ~1000 year history.

[St Daga]

While I question the order of events in history in the timeline, I am not sure I actually doubt the length of time. GRRM likes to use large, almost unfathomable numbers to describe things, even if they make little sense, like the height of the wall or Gregor Clegane's height, for instance, or the description of Bran climbing into Bloodraven's cave. Bran tells us it's 1000 yards to the opening, which is halfway up the hill! What the fook? That's 3000 feet to the opening, so works out to be like 30 football fields. Highly unlikely, unless the top of Bloodraven's hollow hill lies near Denver, CO!

Actually, the height of the wall is far more likely than the height of Bloodraven's cave entrance!

[Tucu]

8 minutes ago, St Daga said:

While I question the order of events in history in the timeline, I am not sure I actually doubt the length of time. GRRM likes to use large, almost unfathomable numbers to describe things, even if they make little sense, like the height of the wall or Gregor Clegane's height, for instance, or the description of Bran climbing into Bloodraven's cave. Bran tells us it's 1000 yards to the opening, which is halfway up the hill! What the fook? That's 3000 feet to the opening, so works out to be like 30 football fields. Highly unlikely, unless the top of Bloodraven's hollow hill lies near Denver, CO!

Actually, the height of the wall is far more likely than the height of Bloodraven's cave entrance!

GRRM tells us to doubt the timeline via Hoster Blackwood:

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"Five hundred years before the Andals. A thousand, if the True History is to be believed. Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend."

 

[St Daga]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

GRRM tells us to doubt the timeline via Hoster Blackwood:

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"Five hundred years before the Andals. A thousand, if the True History is to be believed. Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend."

 

I am sure there are some discrepancies in the timeline, but more of that might come from before there were written records, so therefore before the Andal's came. And, I am not so sure that GRRM doesn't use lines like this in Dance to clean up some discrepancies of his own in the text, although I think there are hints earlier in the text that the timeline could be questionable.

And, like in our world, at some point, does 3000 years matter in comparison to 5000 years? Perhaps to anthropologists, but it doesn't really effect our daily lives. I am just not sure how the timeline could alter the conclusion of this story that much, at least when it comes to length of time. I do question the order of some things, but since some of GRRM's writing revolves around world mythologies, which almost always have questionable timelines in histoy, I think he just uses broad descriptions for the passage of time. 

10,000 years, 8,000 years, 5,000 years. It's honestly all unfathomable to me! It might make a difference in the end, and I am prepared to be wrong, but right now I can't see how it affects the endgame.

[SirArthur]

4 minutes ago, Tucu said:

GRRM tells us to doubt the timeline via Hoster Blackwood:

Maybe he is just not educated and speculates like an idiot without studying the issue. 

He claims that no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. Then look it up Hoster. Don't moan like a lazy man. This guy is a clown. the problem is not the andal invasion, because you read andal, cross reference andal buildings and king lists, cross reference it with Bravoosi history and so on. The faith of the seven is also a great starting point. He can easily get the point when Oldtown changed to the faith of the seven.

He can do it, the reader can't. Maybe the faith even counts the years. We have no problem become some church after which the faith is modeled counted the years. And we can cross reference with roman and greek calendars. Hoster ist really a clown.

The real problem is not that this idiot cannot read latin, the problem is what was before latin. 

[Tucu]

1 minute ago, St Daga said:

I am sure there are some discrepancies in the timeline, but more of that might come from before there were written records, so therefore before the Andal's came. And, I am not so sure that GRRM doesn't use lines like this in Dance to clean up some discrepancies of his own in the text, although I think there are hints earlier in the text that the timeline could be questionable.

And, like in our world, at some point, does 3000 years matter in comparison to 5000 years? Perhaps to anthropologists, but it doesn't really effect our daily lives. I am just not sure how the timeline could alter the conclusion of this story that much, at least when it comes to length of time. I do question the order of some things, but since some of GRRM's writing revolves around world mythologies, which almost always have questionable timelines in histoy, I think he just uses broad descriptions for the passage of time. 

10,000 years, 8,000 years, 5,000 years. It's honestly all unfathomable to me! It might make a difference in the end, and I am prepared to be wrong, but right now I can't see how it affects the endgame.

There are a lot more references that should make us doubt the historical facts and timelines.

Starting with "The north remembers", the NW forgetting both intentionally and accidentally, House Royce words "We Remember"

We also have quotes from Jojen and BR:

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We remember the First Men in the Neck, and the children of the forest who were their friends . . . but so much is forgotten, and so much we never knew.

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"Your uncle may have been named for me. Some are, still. Not so many as before. Men forget. Only the trees remember."

 

[Tucu]

9 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Maybe he is just not educated and speculates like an idiot without studying the issue. 

He claims that no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. Then look it up Hoster. Don't moan like a lazy man. This guy is a clown. the problem is not the andal invasion, because you read andal, cross reference andal buildings and king lists, cross reference it with Bravoosi history and so on. The faith of the seven is also a great starting point. He can easily get the point when Oldtown changed to the faith of the seven.

He can do it, the reader can't. Maybe the faith even counts the years. We have no problem become some church after which the faith is modeled counted the years. And we can cross reference with roman and greek calendars. Hoster ist really a clown.

The real problem is not that this idiot cannot read latin, the problem is what was before latin. 

He is quoting from multiple books and maesters and he likes to read a lot. Jamie thinks:

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Tyrion would like this one. They could talk from dusk to dawn, arguing about books

Braavos has a very short history; the Citadel is a mess; Valyria and Old Ghis are gone. The rhoynish cities are gone.

[SirArthur]

33 minutes ago, Tucu said:

He is quoting from multiple books and maesters and he likes to read a lot. Jamie thinks:

Braavos has a very short history; the Citadel is a mess; Valyria and Old Ghis are gone. The rhoynish cities are gone.

Hoster clearly has the wrong sources. He needs better sources, he needs the list of the Night's Watch and a list from the Citadel about the Maesters at the Wall. He needs a list of the Oldtown High Septons. 

The books are clearly at the Citadel, there is just nobody to research them. It's not blutty, it is just to studied. In comparison to the old tongue. We know of no document in that language.

And btw., while we are once again at Sam's NW commander list. How did they translate the old commander names into andal ?

[Tucu]

20 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Hoster clearly has the wrong sources. He needs better sources, he needs the list of the Night's Watch and a list from the Citadel about the Maesters at the Wall. He needs a list of the Oldtown High Septons. 

The books are clearly at the Citadel, there is just nobody to research them. It's not blutty, it is just to studied. In comparison to the old tongue. We know of no document in that language.

And btw., while we are once again at Sam's NW commander list. How did they translate the old commander names into andal ?

The Citadel as a source? They are the ones shifting history with books like True History. The wiki summarizes all main points we know from True History:

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It suggests that the Battle for the Dawn and the building of the Wall occurred eight thousand years ago, rather than six thousand years. 

The text states the Andal invasion began four thousand years ago rather than six thousand or two thousand.

True History insists that the children of the forest abandoned the riverlands before the arrival of the Andals, contradicting the legend of Erreg the Kinslayer being an Andal who attacked High Heart.

It also suggests that Alyssa Arryn lived four thousand years ago, rather than six thousand according to legend or two thousand according to Maester Denestan's Questions.

 

We know that the NW has changed its own history and forgot another chunk so it can't really be trusted. A list of High Septons would have as much validity as a list of Sumerian kings. Same with the LC list.

[Brad Stark]

The Andals had writing, so I don't think we can question their arrival is off significantly without a conspiracy theory.  Anything before them could be off by a factor of 10 or more.  But I think this is just GRRM trying to lengthen the history of his world. How many people in our world have even the slightest clue where their ancestors lived 1000 years ago or what their family was? 

[Tucu]

46 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

The Andals had writing, so I don't think we can question their arrival is off significantly without a conspiracy theory.  Anything before them could be off by a factor of 10 or more.  But I think this is just GRRM trying to lengthen the history of his world. How many people in our world have even the slightest clue where their ancestors lived 1000 years ago or what their family was? 

I think it is more than GRRM just extending the timeline. In the books we are told that the Andals killed the CoTF, but True History tells us that the CoTF were gone from the Riverlands long before the Andals arrived (whenever that happened). Then we have the Last Hero searching for the CoTF for years during the Long Night. In the light of the Last Hero tale, the version in True History sounds more plausible and might invalidate the legend of the First Men living in peace with the CoTF after the Pact.

[Melifeather]

I think the First Men split into two factions: those that allied themselves with the Children, and those that abused the magic of nature, specifically the Ironborn and the wildlings. The Ironborn got cut off from the mainland, and the wildlings imprisoned behind the Wall. 

[Tucu]

6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think the First Men split into two factions: those that allied themselves with the Children, and those that abused the magic of nature, specifically the Ironborn and the wildlings. The Ironborn got cut off from the mainland, and the wildlings imprisoned behind the Wall. 

We have the issue of the CoTF been gone from the North too(even the Neck) and the wildlings living in the same side of the Wall as the CoTF.

[Janneyc1]

51 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think the First Men split into two factions: those that allied themselves with the Children, and those that abused the magic of nature, specifically the Ironborn and the wildlings. The Ironborn got cut off from the mainland, and the wildlings imprisoned behind the Wall. 

I think we can take this a step further by saying that the Ironborn and Wildlings were prisoners that were shipped off to penal colonies. They share similar societal qualities (raiding and a respect for and almost thirst for freedom). And they inhabit regions that are just absolutely harsh. Their cultures starting as prisoners explains a lot. 

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, Tucu said:

We have the issue of the CoTF been gone from the North too(even the Neck) and the wildlings living in the same side of the Wall as the CoTF.

This is a good point. If they were on friendly terms they’d still be living in the woods. It does appear contradictory to what we’ve been led to believe. Any theories?

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

This is a good point. If they were on friendly terms they’d still be living in the woods. It does appear contradictory to what we’ve been led to believe. Any theories?

It looks like the peace from the Pact didn't last long and the CoTF were almost gone by the time of the Long Night, probably pushed out by the First Men and the Ironborn.

The tales from the Rainwood gives us hints on how that worked: Durran Godsgrief took the Rainwood from the CoTF, his son Durran the Devout returned it to them and finally 100 years later Durran Bronze Axe expelled them forever.

In the North we have Brandon the Builder making an alliance with the CoTF and then the Starks fighting against the CoTF and their allies; we also have Brandon the Breaker deposing the Night's King and cutting ties with the lands beyond the Wall where it seems the CoTF migrated/survived.

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, Tucu said:

It looks like the peace from the Pact didn't last long and the CoTF were almost gone by the time of the Long Night, probably pushed out by the First Men and the Ironborn.

The tales from the Rainwood gives us hints on how that worked: Durran Godsgrief took the Rainwood from the CoTF, his son Durran the Devout returned it to them and finally 100 years later Durran Bronze Axe expelled them forever.

In the North we have Brandon the Builder making an alliance with the CoTF and then the Starks fighting against the CoTF and their allies; we also have Brandon the Breaker deposing the Night's King and cutting ties with the lands beyond the Wall where it seems the CoTF migrated/survived.

OK, these ideas fit some of my suspicions that the Starks aren't the original family that founded Winterfell. If the Nights King was from the original family, then that is when the Starks defeated winter and became Kings of (over) Winter. That old King in the North crown of 9 swords surrounding bronze symbolizes how the Starks have been warding winter/ice magic and keeping it prisoner. The Starks are the prison guards.

If the manipulation of the wheel of time to undo past wrongs has Jon Snow resurrected as the new Nights King with Val as his Queen, it might mean that his true father is from beyond the Wall, which would be necessary to restore Winterfell to the rightful family. He still fits the "brother" to the Lord of Winterfell, because he and Ramsay are bastards that share the last name "Snow". 

The Last Hero story is confusing though, because why would the Children help defeat the Nights King? If those two stories are actually one event. (Long Night and Last Hero)

[Melifeather]

It would be quite a twist if GRRM has led his readers to support and like the Stark family and then they turn out to be the bad guys.

[Janneyc1]

10 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It would be quite a twist if GRRM has led his readers to support and like the Stark family and then they turn out to be the bad guys.

I have thought this for awhile now. I rationalize it by saying that the ancient Starks were bad but they changed over the years. But I wouldn't be surprised.