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Heresy 213 Death aint what it used to be


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36 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It would be quite a twist if GRRM has led his readers to support and like the Stark family and then they turn out to be the bad guys.

Let's say it all together: "we are all individuals". Robb has made it very clear by decapitating Rickard Karstark. I don't think the idea of "bad guys" vs "good guys" is something GRRM would use.

If Brandon the Builder is a contract breaker and then there is the "black goat of the Stark flock", I wouldn't be surprised. 

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20 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Let's say it all together: "we are all individuals". Robb has made it very clear by decapitating Rickard Karstark. I don't think the idea of "bad guys" vs "good guys" is something GRRM would use.

If Brandon the Builder is a contract breaker and then there is the "black goat of the Stark flock", I wouldn't be surprised. 

Grey guys then. GRRM's characters are very grey. We see "bad" guy Sandor demonstrate honor, and "good" knights in shining armor doing horrible things. Being able to understand motivations before something bad is revealed seems like something the author would do.

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5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

OK, these ideas fit some of my suspicions that the Starks aren't the original family that founded Winterfell. If the Nights King was from the original family, then that is when the Starks defeated winter and became Kings of (over) Winter. That old King in the North crown of 9 swords surrounding bronze symbolizes how the Starks have been warding winter/ice magic and keeping it prisoner. The Starks are the prison guards.

If the manipulation of the wheel of time to undo past wrongs has Jon Snow resurrected as the new Nights King with Val as his Queen, it might mean that his true father is from beyond the Wall, which would be necessary to restore Winterfell to the rightful family. He still fits the "brother" to the Lord of Winterfell, because he and Ramsay are bastards that share the last name "Snow". 

The Last Hero story is confusing though, because why would the Children help defeat the Nights King? If those two stories are actually one event. (Long Night and Last Hero)

I have been trying to get my head around what we know about the NW at the time of the Night's King and if that fits with the legend.

He is referred as the Night's King, but at the time the most likely title would have been Magnar of the Night. As the Lord Commander of the NW, his title would have been Magnar of the Night's Watch. That is basically the same title. It is possible that every LC of the NW until the Andal invasion was a Night's King/Magnar of the Night.

This makes me wonder if the erasure of that part of the NW history/legends happened a lot later once Andals and the Faith of the Seven arrived at the Wall. Maybe this is what Sam was trying to show Jon in this quote:

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The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night's King . . . we say that you're the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during . . ."

998-674 puts the list 324 LCs ago. At an average of ~6 or ~8 per LC the list would be between 2000-2600 years old

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I have been trying to get my head around what we know about the NW at the time of the Night's King and if that fits with the legend.

He is referred as the Night's King, but at the time the most likely title would have been Magnar of the Night. As the Lord Commander of the NW, his title would have been Magnar of the Night's Watch. That is basically the same title. It is possible that every LC of the NW until the Andal invasion was a Night's King/Magnar of the Night.

This makes me wonder if the erasure of that part of the NW history/legends happened a lot later once Andals and the Faith of the Seven arrived at the Wall. Maybe this is what Sam was trying to show Jon in this quote:

998-674 puts the list 324 LCs ago. At an average of ~6 or ~8 per LC the list would be between 2000-2600 years old

 

 

The list of Lord Commanders has been beaten to death on multiple Heresys, but I have yet to see a fresh approach or a new idea.

The line about the Children "helping" the Last Hero to defeat the Others which supposedly led to the building of the Wall may not be what it seems on the surface. If the Children are no longer found south of the Wall it would appear that their eradication helped build the Wall. Defeating the Children of the Forest would defeat the forces of nature, and maybe it's their blood that built the Wall?

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18 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The list of Lord Commanders has been beaten to death on multiple Heresys, but I have yet to see a fresh approach or a new idea.

The line about the Children "helping" the Last Hero to defeat the Others which supposedly led to the building of the Wall may not be what it seems on the surface. If the Children are no longer found south of the Wall it would appear that their eradication helped build the Wall. Defeating the Children of the Forest would defeat the forces of nature, and maybe it's their blood that built the Wall?

Given that Men are the expansionist race, the Wall seems to protect the races living north of it. Jon considers the Wall the end of the world:

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You could see it from miles off, a pale blue line across the northern horizon, stretching away to the east and west and vanishing in the far distance, immense and unbroken. This is the end of the world, it seemed to say

When Jon let's the wildlings south of the Wall, he makes them pay a blood price of a 100 children. This might a reference of how the wall was raised.

I have speculated before that the Others are a black legend to keep most Men south of the Wall. A revision  of The Pact that has mainly worked for a few thousands years. Ony small villages allowed north of the Wall and any growing town like Hardhome is wiped out.

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On 9/21/2018 at 3:54 PM, Tucu said:

I have speculated before that the Others are a black legend to keep most Men south of the Wall. A revision  of The Pact that has mainly worked for a few thousands years. Ony small villages allowed north of the Wall and any growing town like Hardhome is wiped out.

Don't we see an Other in the Prologue? How does that work in?

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3 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

Don't we see an Other in the Prologue? How does that work in?

We saw a few white walkers also called white shadows. For comparison we have seen 2 shadow assassins but we don't assume that they are a massive invading force ready to wipe out all life in Westeros. That is were the dark legend we hear from Old Nan has a function. The fear the legend creates is more important than the actual capabilities of the person casting the shadows. Mel tells us how costly magic is and how fear is a big part of the magicians show.

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She made it sound a simple thing, and easy. They need never know how difficult it had been, or how much it had cost her. That was a lesson Melisandre had learned long before Asshai; the more effortless the sorcery appears, the more men fear the sorcererWhen the flames had licked at Rattleshirt, the ruby at her throat had grown so hot that she had feared her own flesh might start to smoke and blacken. Thankfully Lord Snow had delivered her from that agony with his arrows. Whilst Stannis had seethed at the defiance, she had shuddered with relief.

Also, if you look at the description of the Others, they look like a projection of human traits and actions

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“In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”

Men are destroying holdfasts and towns by the score, the Boltons like to chase maids through the forests and we don't see any wights eating flesh. We see men eating corpses: Stannis' men, the bowl of brown made from Symon Silver Tongue, Bran&co and the long pig plus Bran and Arya eating men while warging.

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Hmm. We know that the Thenns live far up in the north and they say they had to flee from WW. So either 

1) they are lying. Which would make them suspicious in out big consiracy. 

2) they are not lying. However they have fought and lost to the WW. So they must have been a target where fear may not be helping (they fought). 

While we may have the impression that the WW are after the NW and create fear, we also have the Thenns. A tribe under immense migration pressure. That pressure does not come from fear alone. 

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The dark legend about the Others includes 3 components: WW, wights and the cold. Craster doesn't fear the WW or the wights, just winter/the cold. People like Val seem to be able to travel through forests without any protection. Craster's and Val's situations seem to contradict the dark legend.

The Thenns are probably just running away in terror like Tormund's wildlings; in Tormund's case the cold seems to be the main killer,followed by the wights and the WW are mainly there to increase the terror.

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"They never came in force, if that's your meaning, but they were with us all the same, nibbling at our edges

They are treating the wildlings like dogs treat sheeps while guiding them through a gate.

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I agree that the white walkers serve a purpose: to create fear which in turn provides the means to usher the wildlings south of the Wall. The looming question is “why”? I’ve offered my explanation before - that the wildings are the Others and have manufacturered the white walkers, - because they have the motivation that makes the most sense.

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48 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree that the white walkers serve a purpose: to create fear which in turn provides the means to usher the wildlings south of the Wall. The looming question is “why”? I’ve offered my explanation before - that the wildings are the Others and have manufacturered the white walkers, - because they have the motivation that makes the most sense.

Why should they be interested in the Thenns ? 

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4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree that the white walkers serve a purpose: to create fear which in turn provides the means to usher the wildlings south of the Wall. The looming question is “why”? I’ve offered my explanation before - that the wildings are the Others and have manufacturered the white walkers, - because they have the motivation that makes the most sense.

My bet is just that a really bad Winter was coming. North of the Wall there are no chances of survival for all, south of the Wall they can ally with some like-minded northeners and conquer the lands south of the Neck. First Men, giants, CoTF, direwolves all taking the oportunity to survive and recover what was lost.

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5 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Why should they be interested in the Thenns ? 

You misunderstand me. The Thenns are in on it. Mance Raydar spent many years visiting clan leaders and detailing his plan. Any family members killed in the process are part of accepting the risk. They understand that magic is a two bladed sword without a hilt.

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45 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

You misunderstand me. The Thenns are in on it. Mance Raydar spent many years visiting clan leaders and detailing his plan. Any family members killed in the process are part of accepting the risk. They understand that magic is a two bladed sword without a hilt.

Can you go into more detail on this? it sounds interesting. 

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7 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

Can you go into more detail on this? it sounds interesting. 

I had provided a link a few posts up to a reread thread that presents evidence and discussion on how I believe the wildlings are the Others. Click on the sentence “I’ve offered my explanation before...”

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I don't follow this Wildlings are Others theory. 

Others are magical beings who aren't human. 

Wildlings are humans. 

Wildlings are independent and only loosely working together under the King Beyond the Wall.  It is unlikely they could collectively work together on anything sophisticated, and impossible they could keep secrets as a group as a whole. 

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If the WW are just casted shadows ("white shadows") then we need to look at who is casting them. I wouldn't expect the bulk of the wildlings to know about the inner workings of the Others, but I expect some of the wildlings leaders to be involved (specially Val).

There are even in-world theories pointing to a similar possibility. Fomas puts in doubt the nature of the Others, how Valyria was founded and the lineages of a number of houses.

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Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients—though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands—does speculate that the Others of legend were nothing more than a tribe of the First Men, ancestors of the wildlings, that had established itself in the far north. Because of the Long Night, these early wildlings were then pressured to begin a wave of conquests to the south. That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch and the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion.

 

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't follow this Wildlings are Others theory. 

Others are magical beings who aren't human. 

Wildlings are humans. 

Wildlings are independent and only loosely working together under the King Beyond the Wall.  It is unlikely they could collectively work together on anything sophisticated, and impossible they could keep secrets as a group as a whole. 

The white walkers are not their own race. If they were then there would be males and females with procreation abilities and little white walker babies, but there aren't. The only sightings are fully adult and appear to be encased in armor. They are white shadows cast or drawn from humans. I am suggesting that the wildlings are creating the white walkers through sacrifice, and I believe it is possible for only upper levels of tribal leadership to have knowledge while the lower followers may not.

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2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The white walkers are not their own race. If they were then there would be males and females with procreation abilities and little white walker babies, but there aren't. 

I have a fantasy question: are gargoyles/golems a race of their own ? 

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

They are white shadows cast or drawn from humans. I am suggesting that the wildlings are creating the white walkers through sacrifice, and I believe it is possible for only upper levels of tribal leadership to have knowledge while the lower followers may not.

I'm not into that. Don't get me wrong, Mance may be into it and Styr of the Thenn, after he was defeated 3 times. But that is also the problem. We treat their goals as similar with the goals of the people they command. All of the Vale is not corrupt just because Littlefinger is, all of Westeros is not mad, just because Aerys is. And not all of Westeros wants to create golems, just because Qyburn, a member of the small council, created Robert Strong. 

If anything, this is created by a small group of people, maybe even only one person like in the case of Cersei and Qyburn. Mance and Val is all that is needed. 

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I would bet that the Others conspiracy is more complex than that. Let's go into the rabbit hole. How did those direwolves cross the Wall? Gared and Coldhands? How did the Others get their new greenseer? Jojen, Sam and Coldhands. How did they manage to get Jon to open the gates? Ygrette, Mance and Val. Did they use Ramsay to chase the Starks out of Winterfell? Ramsay was a experience human hunter, why was he so quick to fake their deaths?

The key for a great conspiracy are secrets, compartmentalization and keeping your foes confused (as explained by Littlefinger) and evidenced in the Son's of the Harpy and the failed Conquest of Dorne.

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He had this all prepared for me. "My lord, I . . . I do not understand . . . Joffrey gave you Harrenhal, made you Lord Paramount of the Trident . . . why . . ."

"Why should I wish him dead?" Littlefinger shrugged. "I had no motive. Besides, I am a thousand leagues away in the Vale. Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that, Sansa, when you come to play the game."

 

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