Heresy 213 Death aint what it used to be

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The white walkers are not their own race. If they were then there would be males and females with procreation abilities and little white walker babies, but there aren't. The only sightings are fully adult and appear to be encased in armor. They are white shadows cast or drawn from humans. I am suggesting that the wildlings are creating the white walkers through sacrifice, and I believe it is possible for only upper levels of tribal leadership to have knowledge while the lower followers may not.

I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, but I don't agree with your logic.  We haven't seen any on camera sex scenes involving giants, Children of the Forest or mammoths either, but that doesn't mean they aren't created that way either. 

This idea of white walkers just being shadows certainly fits the ssm where he says he doesn't know if the Others are capable of having a culture.  That ssm fits poorly with the show's white walkers, as humans turned into Others would still have a culture. 

[Melifeather]

47 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I have a fantasy question: are gargoyles/golems a race of their own ? 

I'm not into that. Don't get me wrong, Mance may be into it and Styr of the Thenn, after he was defeated 3 times. But that is also the problem. We treat their goals as similar with the goals of the people they command. All of the Vale is not corrupt just because Littlefinger is, all of Westeros is not mad, just because Aerys is. And not all of Westeros wants to create golems, just because Qyburn, a member of the small council, created Robert Strong. 

If anything, this is created by a small group of people, maybe even only one person like in the case of Cersei and Qyburn. Mance and Val is all that is needed. 

Gargoyles are statues on the tops of towers, soooo - as for golems, is this word even used in the books?

I think each tribe/clan are in on the manufactured white walker threat. The evidence that supports it is the report that Mance spent a lot of time becoming King Beyond the Wall defeating this leader and that. Did he physically defeat every single one of them, or did he sell them on his grand plan to get south of the Wall?

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, but I don't agree with your logic.  We haven't seen any on camera sex scenes involving giants, Children of the Forest or mammoths either, but that doesn't mean they aren't created that way either. 

This idea of white walkers just being shadows certainly fits the ssm where he says he doesn't know if the Others are capable of having a culture.  That ssm fits poorly with the show's white walkers, as humans turned into Others would still have a culture. 

Since they are not a separate race they cannot have their own culture distinct from the rest of the wildlings. For example, could you say the shadowbaby Melisandre birthed had a culture? We understand the shadow was drawn from Stannis, but it didn't exist on its own - neither do I expect the white walkers to exist on their own. 

[SirArthur]

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Gargoyles are statues on the tops of towers, soooo - as for golems, is this word even used in the books?

Well, if you think that race definitions change from book series to book series ... tell me about Weirwood trees and the little weirwood seedlings then 

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The evidence that supports it is the report that Mance spent a lot of time becoming King Beyond the Wall defeating this leader and that. Did he physically defeat every single one of them, or did he sell them on his grand plan to get south of the Wall?

It is suggested that he killed most of the other leaders opposing him. 

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Since they are not a separate race they cannot have their own culture distinct from the rest of the wildlings. For example, could you say the shadowbaby Melisandre birthed had a culture? We understand the shadow was drawn from Stannis, but it didn't exist on its own - neither do I expect the white walkers to exist on their own. 

Errrr, a race is defined as a group of people with [among other things] similar physical traits shared by the group. So by definition, the Others are distinct from the Wildlings and thus not part of the Wildling race. I do not even know if they aren't their own class. You know, like mammals, reptiles or "shadowthings" in our case. Then we have the common Mel shadow and the cold Other. 

After all you can live together with elephants, dolphins, apes. And fantasy and scifi knows more like human reptiles or (not GRRM) dragons or undead.

[Brad Stark]

I don't think the definition of race is important.  The argument is that the Others are short lived and tied to humans that created them recently, as opposed to an independent group of creatures happily getting married and having kids in their own society in the far North, or creatures created thousands of years ago by the Children who cannot reproduce the way we do, but have long lives and memories.

Everything else I've seen fits with the shows version that the Others were a weapon created by the Children that went out of control, fled North to regain strength after losing a war and now are coming for revenge against a world that barely even remembers them.  But that ssm is completely out of place with that theory. 

[SirArthur]

GRRM has said some very specific things about their weapons. And unless the Wildling culture can produce them or speak their language, they are distinct races.

[Tucu]

If we are looking for cultural links we can analyse what appears to be a shared language. This is how the WW talk:

Quote

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

This is how the World Book legends describe the CoTF language:

Quote

He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water

This is Bran talking with Ned and Theon through the trees:

Quote

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

Quote

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

And we can compare all these with the interaction with Waymar before the fight:

Quote

“Who goes there?” Will heard uncertainty in the challenge. He stopped climbing; he listened; he watched.

The woods gave answer: the rustle of leaves, the icy rush of the stream, a distant hoot of a snow owl.

The Others made no sound.

All these sound like a cultural link between the weirwoods, the WW and the CoTF.

Osha also seems to have a limited understanding on how the weirwoods talk:

Quote

"No, stay," Bran commanded her. "Tell me what you meant, about hearing the gods."

Osha studied him. "You asked them and they're answering. Open your ears, listen, you'll hear."

Bran listened. "It's only the wind," he said after a moment, uncertain. "The leaves are rustling."

"Who do you think sends the wind, if not the gods?" She seated herself across the pool from him, clinking faintly as she moved. Mikken had fixed iron manacles to her ankles, with a heavy chain between them; she could walk, so long as she kept her strides small, but there was no way for her to run, or climb, or mount a horse. "They see you, boy. They hear you talking. That rustling, that's them talking back."

 

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Well, if you think that race definitions change from book series to book series ... tell me about Weirwood trees and the little weirwood seedlings then 

It is suggested that he killed most of the other leaders opposing him. 

Errrr, a race is defined as a group of people with [among other things] similar physical traits shared by the group. So by definition, the Others are distinct from the Wildlings and thus not part of the Wildling race. I do not even know if they aren't their own class. You know, like mammals, reptiles or "shadowthings" in our case. Then we have the common Mel shadow and the cold Other. 

After all you can live together with elephants, dolphins, apes. And fantasy and scifi knows more like human reptiles or (not GRRM) dragons or undead.

I'm not sure I'm following you regarding the race definitions.

Mance spent years gaining gathering various tribes into one host, seeking support from clan mothers and mangers. He made peace between Harma Dogshead and the Lord of Bones, the Hornfoots and the Nightrunners, and the men of the Frozen Shore and the ice-river clans. Opposed by five other would-be Kings, Mance gained the support of Tormund and Styr of Thenn and slew the three rivals who refused to submit.

If the white walkers were their own creature they should be able to replicate on their own.

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

GRRM has said some very specific things about their weapons. And unless the Wildling culture can produce them or speak their language, they are distinct races.

The "Others" are credited with being able to make things of ice, including weapons. So if the Others are able to make the ice weapons, then they are able to make the white walkers. The Others are the wildlings and they know how to work ice magic.

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

If we are looking for cultural links we can analyse what appears to be a shared language. This is how the WW talk:

This is how the World Book legends describe the CoTF language:

This is Bran talking with Ned and Theon through the trees:

And we can compare all these with the interaction with Waymar before the fight:

All these sound like a cultural link between the weirwoods, the WW and the CoTF.

Osha also seems to have a limited understanding on how the weirwoods talk:

 

The language of the white walkers seems to be akin to the True Tongue which is the language of nature, so I would categorize the language of the white walkers as the song of ice.

[Tucu]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The language of the white walkers seems to be akin to the True Tongue which is the language of nature, so I would categorize the language of the white walkers as the song of ice.

I was thinking that all those examples were the same language (True Tongue) carried over different mediums.

[Melifeather]

29 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I was thinking that all those examples were the same language (True Tongue) carried over different mediums.

My understanding is that the True Tongue are sounds of nature, like leaves rustling, water sounds, etc.

[Tucu]

14 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

My understanding is that the True Tongue are sounds of nature, like leaves rustling, water sounds, etc.

Yes, I am just making a distinction between different mediums: leaves rustling, ice cracking, water sounds, raven caws, direwolves howling. Similar to the distinction between oral and written communication. One language but multiple mediums.

For example in the Canary Islands you will find 3 mediums for the Spanish language. The usual oral and written, plus the Silbo Gomero that takes the form of whistling over long distances (up to a few kilometers). To outsiders it looks like a different language or even just the sound of nature:

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Yes, I am just making a distinction between different mediums: leaves rustling, ice cracking, water sounds, raven caws, direwolves howling. Similar to the distinction between oral and written communication. One language but multiple mediums.

For example in the Canary Islands you will find 3 mediums for the Spanish language. The usual oral and written, plus the Silbo Gomero that takes the form of whistling over long distances (up to a few kilometers). To outsiders it looks like a different language or even just the sound of nature:

 

How do they whistle like that??? I tried placing my knuckle in my mouth, but I can't get it to work! 

Would you consider Morse Code a medium for English?

[Tucu]

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

How do they whistle like that??? I tried placing my knuckle in my mouth, but I can't get it to work! 

Would you consider Morse Code a medium for English?

It is probably something that you have to learn as a kid/young adult. This type of alternative "speech" seems to appear when a group of people settles in forests or narrow valleys/ravines.

Morse Code is a more modern (and simpler) method of encoding a language to be passed through multiple mediums. We can transmit English (or any language) encoded in morse code over lights, clicks, bangs, electrical lines, radio, etc. The language is still English. I think we are seeing something equivalent with the True Tongue; it can be passed via the rustling in the leaves, the sounds in water, the cracking of ice, howls, caws, etc.

I like to compare Waymar's challenge to the Old Gods with Moira's "speak, friend, and enter". The Old Gods are harsher and it seem that they answered with something closer to "speak, friend or die"

[SirArthur]

morse code is an encoding for written language. That is not the case with whistling language as it uses volume, frequency and interruption. 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

morse code is an encoding for written language. That is not the case with whistling language as it uses volume, frequency and interruption. 

I think we're OK categorizing it as a medium - a means of communication - because you don't necessarily have to write down the dots and dashes to understand it. 

I like Tucu's interpretation of the True Tongue as being one language with multiple mediums, and the examples of whistling and Morse Code help me understand what he's saying.

[SirArthur]

23 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think we're OK categorizing it as a medium - a means of communication - because you don't necessarily have to write down the dots and dashes to understand it. 

M(o)rse c(o)de is also n(o)t the medium. M(O)rse c(O)de is the message. Y(O)u can m(o)rse c(o)de with light (o)or sound. 

I even just embedded my morse code into another piece of information. In that case my sentence was the medium.

(o)(o)(o) (O)(O)(O) (o)(o)(o)

But in the end this leads noway. I just don't agree.

Ultimately music is also a language. Like in Smetana's Vltava. Where he describes the water flow in the river through music. Music is the medium in that case. And the information is created through fast and slow speeds as well as the feelings the sound creates.

[Tucu]

21 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

M(o)rse c(o)de is also n(o)t the medium. M(O)rse c(O)de is the message. Y(O)u can m(o)rse c(o)de with light (o)or sound. 

I even just embedded my morse code into another piece of information. In that case my sentence was the medium.

(o)(o)(o) (O)(O)(O) (o)(o)(o)

But in the end this leads noway. I just don't agree.

Ultimately music is also a language. Like in Smetana's Vltava. Where he describes the water flow in the river through music. Music is the medium in that case. And the information is created through fast and slow speeds as well as the feelings the sound creates.

We are getting deeper than we need into the differences between medium and encodings.  Even in you example the medium is a bit muddled; music would not be the medium, soundwaves would be (unless we are referring to written lyrics)

My point is that the crackling of ice, the rustling of the leaves and the sounds of water could be the same language; the True Tongue using different encodings to be sent through different mediums. We are told that the ravens can speak the True Tongue; do they make sounds like leaves rustling or do they encode the True Tongue into their caws/sounds?

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

We are getting deeper than we need into the differences between medium and encodings.  Even in you example the medium is a bit muddled; music would not be the medium, soundwaves would be (unless we are referring to written lyrics)

My point is that the crackling of ice, the rustling of the leaves and the sounds of water could be the same language; the True Tongue using different encodings to be sent through different mediums. We are told that the ravens can speak the True Tongue; do they make sounds like leaves rustling or do they encode the True Tongue into their caws/sounds?

If we really want to speak about the very basics of communication... we need a sender and a receiver, let's not call them Alice and Bob, let's call them Arya and Bran. Obviously both have to speak the same language and know how to decode and encode each other. 

Let's further assume both are skinchangers. So when Arya want to speak with Bran, she has to warg into a cat do some "meow" in front of a tree. Obviously Bran has to hear and decode the message. And that is more or less the problem here in my opinion, Bran the tree is not a very good receiver of sound messages. 

So obviously when they want to speak with each other they have to use and understand the same medium, either both as ravens, wolves or trees. This is also consistent with the range of the messages. A wolf can howl further than a raven can craw. And a tree ... who knows if they can create wind or not. 

So in my opinion, whenever a wind blows, it is actually not Bran that tries to speak but someone else able to create wind. Obviously wind is created by exchange of firy and icy air ... so is there a being trying to speak to "wind listeners" through the long night ? I don't know, it is fantasy and magic after all.

Dreams and class candles are also a medium we have talked about. Humans can receive dreams and maybe create them. So best medium for communication may actually be dreams. And a raven is a occult "dream message" of something bad, that will going to happen. 

[Tucu]

Quote

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek." Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. "I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands."

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. "… Bran," the tree murmured.

 

Bran is learning how to encode the Common Tongue with the rustling of the leaves.

[SirArthur]

32 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Bran is learning how to encode the Common Tongue with the rustling of the leaves.

That is a good observation. But someone has to decode it after all ....