Heresy 213 Death aint what it used to be

[Tucu]

Theon managed to understand two words. Bran needs to get better at this and Theon needs to learn to distinguish the words a bit more. This is similar to the Ents speaking the Common Speech to the hobbits; it was not normal Common Speech but they managed a certain level of mutual understanding. GRRM seems to have borrowed a bit from Tolkien's Old Entish for the Old Tongue:

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Having been cured of their "dumbness" by the Elves, the Ents developed a language of their own, described as long and sonorous, somewhat like a woodwind instrument; it was a tonal language. It is unknown if a non-Ent could even pronounce Old Entish correctly: it was filled with many subtle vowel shades and was very longwinded. Only Ents spoke Old Entish; not because they kept their language a secret, as the Dwarves did with Khuzdul, but because no others could master it. It was quite an alien language to all others. The Huorns and trees of Fangorn forest could understand Old Entish and converse with the Ents and each other with it. The only extant sample, a-lalla-lalla-rumba-kamanda-lindor-burúme, the word for hill (or rather a very minute part of a particular hill's name, as Treebeard alludes to something's Entish "name" as including its entire history), was described as a very inaccurate sampling. Even the Elves, master linguists, could not learn Old Entish, nor did they attempt to record it because of its complex sound structure:

"...slow, sonorous, agglomerated, repetitive, indeed long-winded; formed of a multiplicity of vowel-shades and distinctions of tone and quantity which even the loremasters of the Eldar had not attempted to represent in writing" -- The Lord of the Rings, Appendix F

The grammatical structure of Old Entish was also quite bizarre, often described as a lengthy, long-winded discussion of a topic. There may not even have been words for yes and no: such questions would be answered by a long monologue on why the Ent in question did or did not agree with the Ent who asked the question. The Ent Quickbeam was regarded as a very "hasty" Ent for answering a question before another Ent had finished: the end may only have been another hour away. Ents as a rule would say nothing in Old Entish unless it was worth taking a long time to say. For everyday language functions, they usually resorted to "New" Entish.

 

[SirArthur]

If neither Theon nor Bran have a teacher, they learn bran2theon encoding. 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

Bran is learning how to encode the Common Tongue with the rustling of the leaves.

True Tongue, correct? The Common Tongue is what humans of Westeros speak.

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

True Tongue, correct? The Common Tongue is what humans of Westeros speak.

Bran tried the True Tongue with Ned (and probably others) and they didn't understand him. With Theon it seems that Bran tried to get the rustling to sound like the Common Tongue and he was partially successful as Theon understood "Theon" and "Bran" (not the rest of the message).

An alternative is that Theon somehow started to learn the True Tongue (this somehow fits with my bet that Theon will rise as a WW)

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“Take him out across the lake to the islet where the weirwood grows, and strike his head off with that sorcerous sword you bear. That is how Eddard Stark would have done it. Theon slew Lord Eddard’s sons. Give him to Lord Eddard’s gods. The old gods of the north. Give him to the tree.”

And suddenly there came a wild thumping, as the maester’s ravens hopped and flapped inside their cages, their black feathers flying as they beat against the bars with loud and raucous caws. “The tree,” one squawked, “the tree, the tree,” whilst the second screamed only, “Theon, Theon, Theon.”

Theon Greyjoy smiled. They know my name, he thought.

BR seems to think that it would always sound like the rustling of leaves, so this might be a sign that Bran is breaking new ground regarding what greenseers can do.

[Tucu]

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2018/09/27/a-fire-blood-excerpt-just-for-you/

From an extract of Fire & Blood it looks like dragons can't/won't go beyond the Wall according to Alyssane tale from her visit to the North in 58 AC:

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The men of the Night’s Watch were as thunderstruck by the queen’s dragon as the people of White Harbor had been, though the queen herself noted that Silverwing “does not like this Wall.” Though it was summer and the Wall was weeping, the chill of the ice could still be felt whenever the wind blew, and every gust would make the dragon hiss and snap. “Thrice I flew Silverwing high above Castle Black, and thrice I tried to take her north beyond the Wall,” Alysanne wrote to Jaehaerys, “but every time she veered back south again and refused to go. Never before has she refused to take me where I wished to go. I laughed about it when I came down again, so the black brothers would not realize anything was amiss, but it troubled me then and it troubles me still.”

The NW was still hunting mamoth at the time:

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That night the black brothers feasted the queen on mammoth meat, washed down with mead and stout.

 

[Melifeather]

42 minutes ago, Tucu said:

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2018/09/27/a-fire-blood-excerpt-just-for-you/

From an extract of Fire & Blood it looks like dragons can't/won't go beyond the Wall according to Alyssane tale from her visit to the North in 58 AC:

The NW was still hunting mamoth at the time:

 

That is interesting - very interesting indeed. So the Wall wards against dragons. Hmmm...

[Tucu]

The dragons not passing the Wall reminds me of the Dothraki not entering the Kingdom of the Ifequevron

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The horselords had hitherto shunned the forests of the northern coasts; some say this was because of their reverence for the vanished wood walkers, others because they feared their powers.

 

[Janneyc1]

I would expect that the Wall doesn't block specific things, just magic in general. You can do magic on either side, but it can't pass through. 

 

I had a separate thought about the Wall. I got the inspiration back in college, but didn't really have the ASOIAF knowledge to back it up. The concept comes from my Heat Transfer class, when we were talking about fins being used to conduct heat away from something. The basic concept is that nature moves from areas of High Pressure to areas of Low Pressure. We see this most clearly with fluids like air and water, but it also applies to heat (which is very fluid in nature). For heat, fins can be used as a good bridge between the High pressure area and the low pressure area. I think that the Wall was created because of a high pressure area of magic in the area that the wildlings inhabit. 

We see evidence of this by the increased amount of skinchangers, the woods witches that look like they have power, and the magically attuned races (CofT and Others). I think that part of the reason that the wildling culture is so fractured is because of this volatile magical environment. You reflect the environment that you live in. 

[Tucu]

This is the first time we saw the wards apparently blocking a magical being above or below the structure they protect. Mel shadows could pass below Storm's End; skinchangers, greenseers, ravens and direwolves can cross the Wall (above or below); wights can be carried across and then activate.

[Brad Stark]

We don't know if the Wall actually blocked the dragon, it seems more like the dragon did not want to go across.  We don't get a clear picture whether it is the Wall itself or something on the other side, or whether the dragon is unable to continue or chooses to stop. 

[Frey family reunion]

I wonder if Silverwing's refusal to cross the Wall might be more analogous to Ghost's reluctance to enter the ringwall of the Fist of the First Men.

[Frey family reunion]

I forgot who's theory this was, but I recall someone coming up with a theory of an invisible fence extending up from the Wall.  That it wasn't Mel who fried Orell's eagle, but the eagle flying over the Wall while linked with Varamyr that caused the eagle to fry, and the psyche of Orell/eagle/Varamyr to be expelled.

Perhaps Silverwing sensed this "invisible fence"?

[SirArthur]

31 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I wonder if Silverwing's refusal to cross the Wall might be more analogous to Ghost's reluctance to enter the ringwall of the Fist of the First Men.

We could discuss the idea of a magical bond that is interrupted and then the magical creature turns around ... but then again Ghost crosses the Wall without a Black Gate or other mystical solutions. 

[SirArthur]

18 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I forgot who's theory this was, but I recall someone coming up with a theory of an invisible fence extending up from the Wall.  That it wasn't Mel who fried Orell's eagle, but the eagle flying over the Wall while linked with Varamyr that caused the eagle to fry, and the psyche of Orell/eagle/Varamyr to be expelled.

Perhaps Silverwing sensed this "invisible fence"?

This long magic barrier that extends to the east and west so that you just cannot fly around ? Yeah I remember. I had the thought experiment of the Wall as a hole filler, but it went nowhere and had no references. 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I forgot who's theory this was, but I recall someone coming up with a theory of an invisible fence extending up from the Wall.  That it wasn't Mel who fried Orell's eagle, but the eagle flying over the Wall while linked with Varamyr that caused the eagle to fry, and the psyche of Orell/eagle/Varamyr to be expelled.

Perhaps Silverwing sensed this "invisible fence"?

Voice suggested that the magic wall extends above the physical wall. Perhaps something like the curtain of light that Bran sees in his vision. It implies that skinchangers can't cross the Wall when they are riding their familiar.   In Silverwing's case, it implies that the bond between dragon and dragon-rider is akin to skinchanging.  That might explain why Drogon shows up when Danny's in trouble. There is a psychic bond of sorts. 

[Frey family reunion]

30 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Voice suggested that the magic wall extends above the physical wall. Perhaps something like the curtain of light that Bran sees in his vision. It implies that skinchangers can't cross the Wall when they are riding their familiar.   In Silverwing's case, it implies that the bond between dragon and dragon-rider is akin to skinchanging.  That might explain why Drogon shows up when Danny's in trouble. There is a psychic bond of sorts. 

That makes sense.

[SirArthur]

I speculate that Silverwing is an allegory for Alysanne. So instead of Silverwing's eggs, Alysanne left offsprings at Winterfell. As is the Wall. A symbol for Alysanne's northern ambitions, abruptly stoped at the Wall where she build a new castle, Deep Lake, as replacement for the Nightfort and gave the New Gift to the Watch. It would make sense for her, to build a castle for her bastard. 

Maybe even the tale about Bael the Bard is about Alysanne. I mean her son was named Baelon, so it is not far stretched. Either way, I call Silverwing an allegory for Alysanne. 

[Melifeather]

19 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I speculate that Silverwing is an allegory for Alysanne. So instead of Silverwing's eggs, Alysanne left offsprings at Winterfell. As is the Wall. A symbol for Alysanne's northern ambitions, abruptly stoped at the Wall where she build a new castle, Deep Lake, as replacement for the Nightfort and gave the New Gift to the Watch. It would make sense for her, to build a castle for her bastard. 

Maybe even the tale about Bael the Bard is about Alysanne. I mean her son was named Baelon, so it is not far stretched. Either way, I call Silverwing an allegory for Alysanne. 

It's possible. How old is Baelon? I'm expecting Jon's father to still be alive, or at least someone Jon has killed "unawares".

[SirArthur]

19 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's possible. How old is Baelon? I'm expecting Jon's father to still be alive, or at least someone Jon has killed "unawares".

How old ? err ... died in 101 AC which led to the need of a great council. 

born between 53 and 6x AC. Alysanne visited Winterfell early in the reign of her husband, which started in 50 AC. So, I don't know. Funny enough she has a song, mentioned two times in the books. 

Do we know of more connections that point to Bael the Bard = Baelon ? It would be good to know when Baelon came into the primary source ? Was it a GRRM original or added later after the tree of Targaryen kings had been established ?

[Janneyc1]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's possible. How old is Baelon? I'm expecting Jon's father to still be alive, or at least someone Jon has killed "unawares".

I don't think Jon would be a kinslayer. To me, it doesn't ass to his story. He has lived his entire life as a bastard, to add kinslaying would be forcing the plot for me. 

 

The Struggle I want to see, that wouldn't force as much, is Jon the Turncloak. It is my interpretation that the reason Marsh led the coup on that particular night was because he thought the Lord Commander was deserting. That is a struggle I could get behind.