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Heresy 213 Death aint what it used to be


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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I quite agree with Matthew. He’s hit on all of my main points including that Doran’s position would definitely change should Tommen die.

Doran only objected, because he didn’t want to directly challenge Tommen’s reign and incite war, whereas war was Darkstar’s whole motivation for going along with Arianne. 

Crowning Myrcella is in effect a declaration of independence from Doran. The only difference is, that house Martell has an easier time getting out of the impending war. And once the seven kingdoms have sorted their problems out, any new ruler of the Iron Throne will claim Dorne, because it gives him legitimacy. 

Crowning Myrcella is a gamble on the idea that the Iron Throne ceases to exist. And a free casus belli for any de jure successor of Tommen, if he sits the Iron Throne or only rules the Stormlands. 

And then there is no reason to crown Myrcella instead of Arianne. The entire idea is based on the thought, that inheritance rule changes depending on the crowning region - which is absurd. 

So for Doran it would be easier to just formally declare independence. Or sit it out and be de facto independant as in the last decade. The real strategy for house Martell is keeping the status quo and not get involved in any wars. 

 

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Arianne wasn’t declaring Myrcella Queen of Dorne. She wanted to declare her as rightful heir to the Iron Throne, because she’s older than Tommen. Marrying her to Trystane would cement Dorne’s alliance to those that would join the cause. It was a declaration of war, because the Dornish still craved vengeance for Elia and her children. Arianne also felt that the various Houses of Dorne would flock to her side, and declare her ruler of Dorne at the same time.

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13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Arianne wasn’t declaring Myrcella Queen of Dorne. She wanted to declare her as rightful heir to the Iron Throne, because she’s older than Tommen. 

Which is complete bullshit on Arianne's part. 

She can argue that the Iron Throne is a personal union of kingdoms instead of an entity and that the personal union with Dorne ends. But that doesn't make Myrcella Queen of any other kingdom in the union.

For everything else, she has to understand the rules under which the title inherits. Which are clear when it comes to Myrcella and the council of 101. It's not even a Renly situation. Renly has a claim. Myrcella has no claim. It's just made up by Arianne. 

I assumed she would go for the personal union, as that at least makes some sense. 

 

edit: another argument for Arianne could be, that the inheritance rules have changed because the house on the Iron Throne has changed. But that is not something she can decide alone and also very dodgy, as long as GRRM does not clarify the different inheritance systems and house systems. In the end GRRM just plays the good old english game of ignoring the rules, that made medieval england what it was, while most other countries had a far more stable set of inheritance rules. 

But if we ignore the rules, there is no point of crowning Myrcella, Arianne could have crowned herself, as she is also a Targaryen dsecendant. That is what I mean. Crowning Myrcella makes no sense unless it is the intention to divide house Lannister. 

edit2: And Dany is prob. the best case for ignoring the rules, as she claims "ownership" based on a set of rules, that give her no "ownership". And funny enough Robert did bite. Which is something I still do not understand. Killing Viserys makes sense, killing Dany not so much when she has no dragons. 

And I give the situation the doubt, as Robert rants about Dany and the claim of her children to the throne. Which again makes no sense under the (small) set of rules we have for inheritance. 

So error in the semi canon sources with the council of 101 ?:dunno: I don't know any more. 

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18 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Crowning Myrcella makes no sense unless it is the intention to divide house Lannister. 

That was the intent--to provoke open war, and destroy Tywin Lannister's legacy.

What spawned this entire conversation in the first place was the question of whether or not Myrcella would have a "golden crown" in the context of Maggy's prophecy, not whether or not it's legal for her to be crowned--with some of us being of the opinion that there are still several scenarios under which she would be crowned. 

That said, the inconsistent and hypocritical in-world views toward the law is by design; laws in Westeros are, for the most part, not codified in a concrete sense, and there is no independent institution that can actually enforce the laws, so it all really comes down to whether or not the most powerful nobles will respect tradition.

On that front, we already have our answer, because the Dance of the Dragons was only possible because several powerful figures (including King Viserys I) did not view the council of 101 as legally binding; within the present story Shireen is viewed as Stannis' heir, so his faction is happy to throw the council of 101 out the window as well--and, should Dany ever arrive, we might assume she will similarly find allies that don't care about precedent. 
Or, for a more succinct summation:
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P210/

Quote

Well, the short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history... which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpertations, and often contradictory.

 

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41 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Or, for a more succinct summation:
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P210/

That is GRRM's impression, but that is not often the case. And where it is the case, older laws are not simply overwritten. The Salic Law (quoted by GRRM) and the French succession of 1316 show this. Neither Navarra nor female inheritance within France was the problem. And none of the cases are total blood feuds in the way GRRM paints them. 

There is simply a difference between GRRM's impression of his writing style and the reality. And the council of 101 together with Tywin's opinion of inheritance and its subsequent ignorance by Robert (who wants to kill Dany because of her claims) and Stannis  shows this. 

GRRM operates under the impression of primogeniture (male before female), while he himself has created an Iron Throne under super agnatic (male lline before female line) succession. 

And on top of that he implements a "they were vague" policy.

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There is a recurring theme of prominent female eldest child being passed over, bolded and underscored with the Dornish exception, that makes me suspect that GRRM intends to bring several of his female characters into power. There are already several examples in Westerosi history of wars fought over this line of inheritance, and the current struggles of Cersei, Asha, and Arianne, and later I expect between Sansa and Jon, that leads me to believe this particular part of the story will culminate with a Queen in the North.

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17 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

There is a recurring theme of prominent female eldest child being passed over, bolded and underscored with the Dornish exception, that makes me suspect that GRRM intends to bring several of his female characters into power. There are already several examples in Westerosi history of wars fought over this line of inheritance, and the current struggles of Cersei, Asha, and Arianne, and later I expect between Sansa and Jon, that leads me to believe this particular part of the story will culminate with a Queen in the North.

I agree. It is a nice hat trick for a later antagonist. 

But I still feel, that the council of 101 is a mistake in the source material. Not only was the harsh law not necessary, it is also subsequently ignored in the story by everyone close to the Iron Throne (Viserys when he makes Dany heir, Robert when he wants to kill Dany because of her claim, Stannis with Shireen although she would only be valid for Dragonstone) . And on top of that a council is one fan favoured proposed solution to the throne crisis. And the flat out ignorance of a council doesn't help bringing a solution to a throne crisis via council.

It's like GRRM wanted a touch of vague and painted the entire world anarchic, even the solutions to the vagueness. And this certainly does not help any future queen in the North. She will have to rule with an iron fist. And it makes me sad, that Aragorn's tax policy statement of GRRM was about suppression. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hopefully Black Crow didn't die, would be a shame if he didn't live to see Winds of Winter. 

Probably got bored.  It has been 7 years since ADWD, so not a lot we can talk about that hasn't been said. At least we get Fire and Blood this month, maybe a few new ideas. 

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Off topic but I'm intrigued by some comments on another forum concerning the ability to communicate with humanity using ravens and crows.  I'm a bit fuzzy. 

Did the greenseers communicate with humanity using 'crows'.  Are these actual crows or men of the NW? Given that one of Howland Reed's abilities is talking to trees; is it possible that the Watch was once able to do the same but lost the ability?

Did we have an example of a crow talking to a tree when Jon/Ghost and Tree/Bran communicate?

It seems to be that this ability requires third eye capability.  In other words, a three-eyed crow can speak to trees.  If the Watch lost this ability at one time;  the return of a 3EC would be significant. 

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5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Off topic but I'm intrigued by some comments on another forum concerning the ability to communicate with humanity using ravens and crows.  I'm a bit fuzzy. 

Did the greenseers communicate with humanity using 'crows'.  Are these actual crows or men of the NW? Given that one of Howland Reed's abilities is talking to trees; is it possible that the Watch was once able to do the same but lost the ability?

Did we have an example of a crow talking to a tree when Jon/Ghost and Tree/Bran communicate?

It seems to be that this ability requires third eye capability.  In other words, a three-eyed crow can speak to trees.  If the Watch lost this ability at one time;  the return of a 3EC would be significant. 

According to Bran in ADWD (and the world book), the ravens are the ones capable of speaking the True Tongue. There is no mention of crows doing this. The 3EC might be the exception but it is likely that he is a version of Bran, so really a greenseer plugged to the trees.

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On 9/5/2018 at 5:15 AM, SirArthur said:

Well, he has to make sure the stories are at least related, else the public opinion will have a bad reflection on him. It is also damaging from a brand perspective. 

Tolkien would be damaged, if there would be a fan fiction film version, with a deleted Sam, General Frodo of Gondor and that ranger dude from the north. Oh and Gandalf was replaced by Saruman the Whiter.

The Hobbit movies? 

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11 hours ago, Tucu said:

According to Bran in ADWD (and the world book), the ravens are the ones capable of speaking the True Tongue. There is no mention of crows doing this. The 3EC might be the exception but it is likely that he is a version of Bran, so really a greenseer plugged to the trees.

Back to the debate on whether Crows and Ravens are different in the series and how. 

I believe we were told the Ravens spoke the words when sent as messengers, not sure which book. The Children taught men how to do this. 

It isn't explicitly stated, but it seems to involve a Warg bond, someone skinchanging the raven to talk, or at least teach it to talk on it's own. 

 

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On 11/6/2018 at 11:42 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Don't know what has happened to Black Crow, but he hasn't checked in since Sept 9th.

Maybe we should start

Heresy 214 - In search of the First Heretic 

and come up with ASoIaF ideas what he is up to?

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On 11/8/2018 at 12:02 PM, LynnS said:

Off topic but I'm intrigued by some comments on another forum concerning the ability to communicate with humanity using ravens and crows.  I'm a bit fuzzy. 

Did the greenseers communicate with humanity using 'crows'.  Are these actual crows or men of the NW? Given that one of Howland Reed's abilities is talking to trees; is it possible that the Watch was once able to do the same but lost the ability?

Did we have an example of a crow talking to a tree when Jon/Ghost and Tree/Bran communicate?

It seems to be that this ability requires third eye capability.  In other words, a three-eyed crow can speak to trees.  If the Watch lost this ability at one time;  the return of a 3EC would be significant. 

 

I agree with those that say it was the ravens that were doing the talking, but I suspect they were skin changed by a greenseer, much like I suspect that Mormont's raven is being skin changed by Bloodraven or Bran. A reduction in talking ravens would be consistent with a reduction in greenseers, which I suspect were once all over Westeros, but after the trees were cut down, etc, the greenseers were likely rooted up and killed also.

 

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Maybe we should start

Heresy 214 - In search of the First Heretic 

and come up with ASoIaF ideas what he is up to?

I want to be respectful. Either he's taking a break, or something happened to him. In any case, if we begin a Heresy 214 in his absence we shouldn't be funny or cute. I think we'd all feel awful if something bad happened to him and we were joking around. 

What do all the heretics think? Should we begin Heresy 214 without Black Crow? Or begin a Heresy 2.0?

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32 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

I agree with those that say it was the ravens that were doing the talking, but I suspect they were skin changed by a greenseer, much like I suspect that Mormont's raven is being skin changed by Bloodraven or Bran. A reduction in talking ravens would be consistent with a reduction in greenseers, which I suspect were once all over Westeros, but after the trees were cut down, etc, the greenseers were likely rooted up and killed also.

 

I want to be respectful. Either he's taking a break, or something happened to him. In any case, if we begin a Heresy 214 in his absence we shouldn't be funny or cute. I think we'd all feel awful if something bad happened to him and we were joking around. 

What do all the heretics think? Should we begin Heresy 214 without Black Crow? Or begin a Heresy 2.0?

Didn't mean to be disrespectful or joking around.

Is there anyone around who can drop him a private email?

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Oh, please don’t tell me Heresy is dying a slow death, not when I’ve been reading all the threads since I discovered its very first iteration, “The Wall, the Watch — and a Heresy”! I’m now up to Heresy Spirit of ‘76. I tried skipping from about H50 to H150, but you guys were way ahead of me, so I humbly went back to H76. But every now & again I peek ahead to a random thread, then jump back to follow along the thread’s (impressively long!) timeline.

So I finally signed up the other day, because in my reading through the books & the almost 76 Heresy threads, I have seen the innumerable (well, lots) references to “a thousand years ago” and Bryn Rivers’ “thousand eyes and one.” And it occurred to me:

1000 binary = 8 decimal

The number of sides on the domed “kitchen” at the Nightfort. The number of members of the Fiery Hand guard at the Temple of R’hllor in Volantis — never more, never fewer. The number of planets that existed (assuming Qarthine two moons theory to be true) before the original “breaking of the world.” Other examples, but this is my first post & I’m typing on phone.

1001 binary = 9 decimal

Odin’s (and by extension, TreeBryn’s) number, traversing Yggdrasil and the Nine Worlds, riding his eight-legged Ice Spid—, er, sorry ... Steed, Sleipnir. And probably other examples.

But I don’t think these two binary-to-decimal equivalences are coincidental. I don’t know what it means, unless something to do with the timeline?

And here is a second thing I noticed, also maybe timeline-related. This may have come up before, & if so I apologize. Why is it that the supposedly “pure Andal nobility” Arryns have House words (“As High as Honor”) that bake in both the place-name “Asshai” and two variant spellings of the descriptive name Azor Ahai, “Asor Ahi” or “Asor Ahhi”? (Actually, this may be an incomplete anagram. I’ll have to fiddle with it some more.)

And may I just finish this first post off by saying that I’m glad I did finally make the leap & ask my damned questions! ;)  And I have discovered SO many puzzles — I don’t just mean GRRM’s puns like green sea/see and Patchface’s “under the sea” being an anagram for “undeath seer” — I mean, check out the different Houses’ words. I can’t do theories & complicated analyses. I’m left handed, have ADD and (mostly cured) dyslexia, so I literally CAN’T see the forest — I’m too busy memorizing every single tree ... scatterbrained! I applaud those who can, with many bowdown emojis. I just discovered the House Words puzzles. Not gonna hijack Heresy any more than that (although there might be one relevant House to Heresy and the Morrigen cookie / Others’ Sidhe inspirations).

Thank you for reading. Cheers, all!

ETA: Oh, dear, I did not realize that @BlackCrow hadn’t been on-scene lately! I hope he is okay — his Morrigen cookie and the Sidhe-like Others are what began my own journey of discovery! Come back, Lord Commie! :commie:

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23 minutes ago, Hot Water said:

Oh, please don’t tell me Heresy is dying a slow death, not when I’ve been reading all the threads since I discovered its very first iteration, “The Wall, the Watch — and a Heresy”! I’m now up to Heresy Spirit of ‘76. I tried skipping from about H50 to H150, but you guys were way ahead of me, so I humbly went back to H76. But every now & again I peek ahead to a random thread, then jump back to follow along the thread’s (impressively long!) timeline.

So I finally signed up the other day, because in my reading through the books & the almost 76 Heresy threads, I have seen the innumerable (well, lots) references to “a thousand years ago” and Bryn Rivers’ “thousand eyes and one.” And it occurred to me:

1000 binary = 8 decimal

The number of sides on the domed “kitchen” at the Nightfort. The number of members of the Fiery Hand guard at the Temple of R’hllor in Volantis — never more, never fewer. The number of planets that existed (assuming Qarthine two moons theory to be true) before the original “breaking of the world.” Other examples, but this is my first post & I’m typing on phone.

1001 binary = 9 decimal

Odin’s (and by extension, TreeBryn’s) number, traversing Yggdrasil and the Nine Worlds, riding his eight-legged Ice Spid—, er, sorry ... Steed, Sleipnir. And probably other examples.

But I don’t think these two binary-to-decimal equivalences are coincidental. I don’t know what it means, unless something to do with the timeline?

And here is a second thing I noticed, also maybe timeline-related. This may have come up before, & if so I apologize. Why is it that the supposedly “pure Andal nobility” Arryns have House words (“As High as Honor”) that bake in both the place-name “Asshai” and two variant spellings of the descriptive name Azor Ahai, “Asor Ahi” or “Asor Ahhi”? (Actually, this may be an incomplete anagram. I’ll have to fiddle with it some more.)

And may I just finish this first post off by saying that I’m glad I did finally make the leap & ask my damned questions! ;)  And I have discovered SO many puzzles — I don’t just mean GRRM’s puns like green sea/see and Patchface’s “under the sea” being an anagram for “undeath seer” — I mean, check out the different Houses’ words. I can’t do theories & complicated analyses. I’m left handed, have ADD and (mostly cured) dyslexia, so I literally CAN’T see the forest — I’m too busy memorizing every single tree ... scatterbrained! I applaud those who can, with many bowdown emojis. I just discovered the House Words puzzles. Not gonna hijack Heresy any more than that (although there might be one relevant House to Heresy and the Morrigen cookie / Others’ Sidhe inspirations).

Thank you for reading. Cheers, all!

Welcome to Heresy, Hot Water! Your post gave me goosebumps! I really think you're onto something! And I really loved the connections between As High (as Honor), Asshai, and (Azor) Ahai! And for some odd reason I now have Zena the Warrior Princess doing her "yai, yai, yai, yai!" in my head!

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