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Heresy 213 Death aint what it used to be


Black Crow

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Hello, Feather Crystal! You won’t know it, but I’m already a fan! I’ve read your work on inversions & echoes, across 3 forum sites, along with some of the Unraveling the Wheel and Bran the Timelord material you’ve done in conjunction with LynnS and PrettyPig (couple of others, but I get your usernamesconfused between different forums. I actually have worked out a LOT more of the House Words puzzles, but I totally feel that it’s not fair to go, “Look what I found out!” before giving the other person the fun of figuring it out themselves. Also, it’s not really Heresy, although the puzzles do give off more than a pleasing aroma to the story. So when I get my confusedness tamped down some, & learn threading & spoiler-tagging, perchance I’ll start a new one (or maybe contact @Seams &/or @RavenousReader?; they’re the wordplay folks).

Thanks for your reply and welcoming words, @FeatherCrystal! <3

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1 hour ago, Hot Water said:

Hello, Feather Crystal! You won’t know it, but I’m already a fan! I’ve read your work on inversions & echoes, across 3 forum sites, along with some of the Unraveling the Wheel and Bran the Timelord material you’ve done in conjunction with LynnS and PrettyPig (couple of others, but I get your usernamesconfused between different forums. I actually have worked out a LOT more of the House Words puzzles, but I totally feel that it’s not fair to go, “Look what I found out!” before giving the other person the fun of figuring it out themselves. Also, it’s not really Heresy, although the puzzles do give off more than a pleasing aroma to the story. So when I get my confusedness tamped down some, & learn threading & spoiler-tagging, perchance I’ll start a new one (or maybe contact @Seams &/or @RavenousReader?; they’re the wordplay folks).

Thanks for your reply and welcoming words, @FeatherCrystal! <3

Thank you, Hot Water. You are too kind! :wub:

I have tried to keep my avatars similar, or at least an amalgam of a couple. I started out on this forum back in 2011 as Melisandra, but when you change your name it ends up changing on every post going back to the beginning, so even my earliest thoughts from 2011 will show as Feather Crystal. On House of Black and White I'm Melifeather...but I digress...

Black Crow started Heresy, because westeros.org can sometimes be a difficult place to discuss the merits of an alternate theory to a majority-accepted-crowd without getting torched. The heretics that have made this thread home are welcoming and respectful to new ideas, so this is the perfect place for you to present your observations!

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Now I feel bad for laughing when I read this post.

A fellow Heretic brought it to my attention that Black Crow tried to quit Heresy a year ago, so now I'm thinking that's exactly what he did. Even the name of Heresy 213 seems to hint at his intention. Perhaps it would be fun, then, to start Heresy 214 as The Search for the First Heretic? (or Lost Heretic) I'm asking for everyone to weigh in on this. What do you all think? Anybody want to play host? In my opinion, I think Matthew's opinions are most in line with Black Crow, so my vote would go to him.

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I would be in favor of Heresy 214, “The Search for the Last Hero — er, Last Heretic!“ @BlackCrow was the reason I kept lurking the Heresy boards for three months, because I learned more from this thread than any other. I think it should be opened by a guest host, but using one of BC’s intro posts ...

... followed by a plea to pleeeeze come back, Sir! :(  :commie::commie::commie::commie:I haz cookie for you!

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For a bit of black humour I vote for "Heresy 214 - The seventy nine sentinels"; after all

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They left their posts in life, so in death their watch goes on forever

Edit: "Schrödinger's Crow" could also work as homage.

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16 minutes ago, Tucu said:

For a bit of black humour I vote for "Heresy 214 - The seventy nine sentinels"; after all

Edit: "Schrödinger's Crow" could also work as homage.

Good one!

Plus an actual discussion of the 79 sentinels might be interesting.

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2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Welcome to Heresy, Hot Water! Your post gave me goosebumps! I really think you're onto something! And I really loved the connections between As High (as Honor), Asshai, and (Azor) Ahai! And for some odd reason I now have Zena the Warrior Princess doing her "yai, yai, yai, yai!" in my head!

Hey hey my my

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I love me some Zena! My nieces learned how to reproduce that sound (I was so jealous) ... and: Zena’s ululating, just like Mirri Maz Duur did at Drogo’s pyre! (The word “ululate,” “ululating,” etc., however, is really unpleasant and sinister-sounding. Scares moi. :unsure: )

Completely off-topic. But <3 Zena.

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Hello again, Heresy. When I posted for my first couple of times yesterday, I said that I had discovered that many of the nobles’ House Words seemed to be word puzzles — straight-up anagrams, encodings (where a word(s) or name(s) are hidden in a larger word or phrase, with letters left over), puns, or some other form of puzzle.

I discovered the first one in the “Andal” Arryns’ House words:

AS HIGH AS HONOR

”Asshai” — taking first “AS” from first phrase word “as”; second “S” from third phrase word “as”; “H” from second phrase word “high”; second “A” from third phrase word “as”; and final “I” from second phrase word “high.” “Ghis” may also be found from “GHI” in second phrase word “high”; “S” in first phrase word “as.”

Starting again from complete phrase

AS HIGH AS HONOR,

There are two variant spellings of “Azor Ahai”:

Using the technique above (pulling letters from different words in phrase), you can find:

ASOR AHI or ASOR AHHI.

[N.B.: One can do these puzzles with pencil and MANY sheets of paper, but I finally broke out the Scrabble letters & pushed them around on a tabletop — much faster!]

That was the first one. The next one, which I’ll go into below, is the one that made me sit up suddenly with astonishment, and engendered only another million questions.

If you would kindly go to the wiki and look up the shield and words for House Flint of Widow’s Watch: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Flint_of_Widow's_Watch , you will note the blue eyes on a yellow field, over whitecapped waves. Their House words are “EVER VIGILANT.” After a while, I got a phrase with only one leftover letter (so not a true anagram, but close). The phrase is “VEELA VIRGIN.”

:eek: er ... WHA-AA-AT?!?!

Harry Potter-heads will remember the word “veela” from HP4 — The Goblet of Fire. They were the gorgeous, faerie-like female students of Beauxbatons, another Wizarding school. But the name, usually spelled “Vila,” is a type of Slavic Sidhe — whee! (I love this because I’ve been following all the Celtic mythology in ASOIAF with great fondness, as on my Dad’s side I’m all British/Scots/Welsh/French, so I was recognizing a lot of GRRM’s inspiration. But on my Mom’s side, I’m Polish/Lithuanian, so the discovery of an homage to Slavic mythology was double fun!)

However. The “Veela Virgin” monicker is making me think of Brave Danny Flint and the “social integration reward” she received at the Wall for passing male. I had thought Danny Flint was from one of the mountain-clan Flints, but they are all from the same original House. And I’m wondering now if, like so many other mysteries in this infernally wonderful series, the Danny Flint story is connected to the 13th LC Night’s King story. Old Nan says, “Mayhaps [the Night’s King’s] name was Brandon,” but I wonder ... specifically, I wonder about Ygritte’s flinching and her comment, “An evil name,” when she learns that the name of the cute crow flapping around her is Jon Snow. Look at that — Jon Snow and Danny Flint may have appeared together at The Wall for a limited one-generation show! Don’t they just make the cutest FrostFest King and Queen?! Until the jealous Brandon the *Breaker* split up the happy couple ...

This is kinda disturbing, given all the references to eugenics, DNA manipulation, and making “terrible half-human children” who are both “godlike, or demonic” (like the description of the Five Forts in Essos). ~shudder~  (Lyanna’s blue rose-crowned statue, eyes weeping blood — you definitely DON’T want to be “The Mother of GOd” [intentional double capitals in “GOd”] in THIS universe! “Divine predators,” indeed!)

Anyway, here are some links describing the charms and dangers of the Vila:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural_beings_in_Slavic_religion ;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samodiva_(folklore) ; and

 

 

And one more, for fun: The Hightowers, whose shield shows their lighted beacon tower, and whose House words are:

WE LIGHT THE WAY.

This one is a perfect anagram (all letters used), and it’s hilarious:

THE WIGHT WAYLE.

Yes, really. Not only an homonym for Moby Dick’s “White Whale,” but also a sort of confirmation of the location where a certain horn will be blown to, er ... “stir up some shyt.” The WIGHT WAIL. Euron-pocalypse Now.

Well! This was long — but fun (for you as well, I hope!). There are many more like this, and not just in House words. Some are in false-identity names, like Arstan Whitebeard. Mance Rayder is also an interesting one.

And now I shall return to my Scrabble letters, because the Starks seem to have a very alarming encoding!

Cheers, all.

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19 hours ago, Hot Water said:

Hello again, Heresy. When I posted for my first couple of times yesterday, I said that I had discovered that many of the nobles’ House Words seemed to be word puzzles — straight-up anagrams, encodings (where a word(s) or name(s) are hidden in a larger word or phrase, with letters left over), puns, or some other form of puzzle.

I discovered the first one in the “Andal” Arryns’ House words:

AS HIGH AS HONOR

”Asshai” — taking first “AS” from first phrase word “as”; second “S” from third phrase word “as”; “H” from second phrase word “high”; second “A” from third phrase word “as”; and final “I” from second phrase word “high.” “Ghis” may also be found from “GHI” in second phrase word “high”; “S” in first phrase word “as.”

Starting again from complete phrase

AS HIGH AS HONOR,

There are two variant spellings of “Azor Ahai”:

Using the technique above (pulling letters from different words in phrase), you can find:

ASOR AHI or ASOR AHHI.

[N.B.: One can do these puzzles with pencil and MANY sheets of paper, but I finally broke out the Scrabble letters & pushed them around on a tabletop — much faster!]

That was the first one. The next one, which I’ll go into below, is the one that made me sit up suddenly with astonishment, and engendered only another million questions.

If you would kindly go to the wiki and look up the shield and words for House Flint of Widow’s Watch: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Flint_of_Widow's_Watch , you will note the blue eyes on a yellow field, over whitecapped waves. Their House words are “EVER VIGILANT.” After a while, I got a phrase with only one leftover letter (so not a true anagram, but close). The phrase is “VEELA VIRGIN.”

:eek: er ... WHA-AA-AT?!?!

Harry Potter-heads will remember the word “veela” from HP4 — The Goblet of Fire. They were the gorgeous, faerie-like female students of Beauxbatons, another Wizarding school. But the name, usually spelled “Vila,” is a type of Slavic Sidhe — whee! (I love this because I’ve been following all the Celtic mythology in ASOIAF with great fondness, as on my Dad’s side I’m all British/Scots/Welsh/French, so I was recognizing a lot of GRRM’s inspiration. But on my Mom’s side, I’m Polish/Lithuanian, so the discovery of an homage to Slavic mythology was double fun!)

However. The “Veela Virgin” monicker is making me think of Brave Danny Flint and the “social integration reward” she received at the Wall for passing male. I had thought Danny Flint was from one of the mountain-clan Flints, but they are all from the same original House. And I’m wondering now if, like so many other mysteries in this infernally wonderful series, the Danny Flint story is connected to the 13th LC Night’s King story. Old Nan says, “Mayhaps [the Night’s King’s] name was Brandon,” but I wonder ... specifically, I wonder about Ygritte’s flinching and her comment, “An evil name,” when she learns that the name of the cute crow flapping around her is Jon Snow. Look at that — Jon Snow and Danny Flint may have appeared together at The Wall for a limited one-generation show! Don’t they just make the cutest FrostFest King and Queen?! Until the jealous Brandon the *Breaker* split up the happy couple ...

This is kinda disturbing, given all the references to eugenics, DNA manipulation, and making “terrible half-human children” who are both “godlike, or demonic” (like the description of the Five Forts in Essos). ~shudder~  (Lyanna’s blue rose-crowned statue, eyes weeping blood — you definitely DON’T want to be “The Mother of GOd” [intentional double capitals in “GOd”] in THIS universe! “Divine predators,” indeed!)

Anyway, here are some links describing the charms and dangers of the Vila:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural_beings_in_Slavic_religion ;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samodiva_(folklore) ; and

 

 

And one more, for fun: The Hightowers, whose shield shows their lighted beacon tower, and whose House words are:

WE LIGHT THE WAY.

This one is a perfect anagram (all letters used), and it’s hilarious:

THE WIGHT WAYLE.

Yes, really. Not only an homonym for Moby Dick’s “White Whale,” but also a sort of confirmation of the location where a certain horn will be blown to, er ... “stir up some shyt.” The WIGHT WAIL. Euron-pocalypse Now.

Well! This was long — but fun (for you as well, I hope!). There are many more like this, and not just in House words. Some are in false-identity names, like Arstan Whitebeard. Mance Rayder is also an interesting one.

And now I shall return to my Scrabble letters, because the Starks seem to have a very alarming encoding!

Cheers, all.

I quite enjoyed your findings! And I hope you’ll share your work on the Starks. 

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4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I quite enjoyed your findings! And I hope you’ll share your work on the Starks. 

Hiya, @Feather Crystal! I will be happy to, except that I’m sometimes not sure what the puzzle “rules” are, because they change from puzzle to puzzle ... sometimes, as I said, it’s a straight letter-for-letter anagram, sometimes letters are left over (or I’m not getting the puzzle right!), sometimes it seems you have to re-use a letter or two ... okay, bor-ing! Leave out the tech-y details & get to the good stuff!

WINTER IS COMING

I’m still working on it, and using it as a straight anagram, I get:

COMET WIN RISING ... or, if you add a “D” (which I think might not be a “legal” solve, to add a letter that isn’t there), you might get

COMET WIN(D) RISING.

Moving it around a little, I can also get

COMET SINGR WIN, but that doesn’t use all the letters — but “COMET SINGER”?!?! Earth singers, Moonsingers, Stormsingers ... well, why the hell not. And, further fooling with it, I can get

COMET SWINGR, which I don’t think is right, but *could* be, in the sense of the theory that the comet was “steered” into (one of?) the moon(s?). So I’m still noodling with this one.

****

The more interesting one to me is Mance Rayder. The name itself is an alternate spelling of “manse raider,” which is what wildlings do — raid the manses (mansions, castles, holdfasts, keeps) of the South-of-the-Wall Northerners. When I first read the name, I thought the alternate spelling of “raider” was weird, so off I went ... at first, all I could get from it was the last name “DAYNE,” but I couldn’t make anything of the rest of the letters, so I just shrugged it off as coincidence. When I came back to it by accident weeks later, I realized that I wasn’t using his “full” name:

THE MANCE RAYDER, which gives you a bit more, albeit with an alternate spelling & 3 leftover letters:

ARTHER DAYNE (leftover M, E, C), but the misspelling bothers me & it's not as if GRRM has never used a bit of red in these many herrings, carefully spilled! But then, a couple of days (Daynes, heh) ago, I went back & looked again, because of reading one of the essays on HOB&W or Last Hearth, where Mance is all raven on top & shaggy mountain goat below, & is referred to as a “divine predator.” And here is the eye-opener: going back to just

MANCE RAYDER, I get the following!:

AER MANCER, with leftover Y & D.

AEROMANCER! Of course we knew he’s a Storm Lord! :commie:

So, I have NO flippin’ idea whether Mance is Arthur Dayne, Rhaegar, “or Moonboy, for all I know,” but he is of the Storm.

****

I am working on more, Feather, but while I have your attention, I need to ask you a question. I believe it was one of your essays (?) that said that the “North is upside down and under water,” and that everything had flipped places, and suggested imagining the Wall as a mirror reflecting all of Westeros backwards, etc. This, obviously, blew my “scatterbrain” into even *smaller* shards. So I took a mirror and my big map of Westeros from the LOIAF Map Set, and looked in reverse, then folded the map down the center longitudinally, so I could see what you (or another OP?) meant by a location in the West of Westoros having swapped places with another in the East of the continent ... my poor map, ha ha!! I was holding it up to the light, folding it, laying it down on the bed with the mirror across the Wall section, using push pins & string ... well, not that last part, but seriously thinking of buying some! :rolleyes: But as I told you, I read a bunch of your stuff here, on HOB&W & LH, and I really admire the work. But I was reading it scattershot, not in any real order (I’m not really used to forums, & kept chasing links until I’d forgotten where I started & who had written what). However, you folks have shown some rare brilliance, & I wonder if you could re-direct me to where it might have started? I was so blown away by the deep work you & your group were doing that I had to read it, step away when it got so confusing I was trying to draw diagrams, then let it percolate for a while, then come back to have mind. Totally. Toasted. AGAIN! So, what I’m asking, do you have a link to that first essay, or is it better to hop on over to HOB&W and just re-read them (with map and mirror handy, of course!)? Is there a preferred order?

I love your notion that the wildlings are the Others, which I saw here recently. I haven’t read much here on W *except* Heresy, but I did see that thread, which Fattest Leech had compiled from her Nymeria thread. Keep the analytical great stuff coming, & I will provide the entertaining little nuggets!

Cheers to you, & thanks!

 

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18 hours ago, Hot Water said:

Mance is all raven on top & shaggy mountain goat below, & is referred to as a “divine predator.”

Rattleshirt had been sent by Mance to bring Jon to the top of the Fist of the First Men the day after the Nights Watch was attacked. As they drew nearer the snow was falling faster, the drifts were deeper, the wind was colder, and night was falling. All signs that white walkers were in the area. Jon could see the great hill of the Fist of the First Men even through the blowing snow. He noted that the wildlings were crawling over the dead garrons like flies, stripping them of saddles, bridles, packs, and armor, and hacking them apart with stone axes.  They were even prying horseshoes from their hooves. There were ravens flapping from one dead horse to the next and Jon wondered if they were Nights Watch ravens. Mance was at the top of the hill. Under his black wool and red silk he wore black ringmail and shaggy fur breeches, and on his head was a great bronze-and-iron helm with raven wings at either temple. Is Mance "Ossa Ravenhead", a Viking warrior god of wisdom and strength? Wearing a winged helmet is commonly used to depict Celts, but the shaggy fur breeches imply he’s wearing a ritual costume that projects the wearer’s intention to become a divine predator.

18 hours ago, Hot Water said:

I love your notion that the wildlings are the Others, which I saw here recently. I haven’t read much here on W *except* Heresy, but I did see that thread, which Fattest Leech had compiled from her Nymeria thread.

The Fattest Leach started this thread for me and inserted all my posts from her Nymeria thread, and then I added to it: Reread thread: Wildlings are the Others

18 hours ago, Hot Water said:

I am working on more, Feather, but while I have your attention, I need to ask you a question. I believe it was one of your essays (?) that said that the “North is upside down and under water,” and that everything had flipped places, and suggested imagining the Wall as a mirror reflecting all of Westeros backwards, etc. 

Prior to working on the mirrored or inversion theory, I had been a member of Last Hearth. One of our discussions led to regular jon umber posting that he wondered if they meant anything, specifically, was there any significance in having a title versus a single name POV? That wondering lead to a reread of the chapters and group discussions looking for clues that might unearth the significance.

It wasn't until I reread The Iron Captain two additional times - this after I had reread the first four titled chapter in the series - that the proverbial lightbulb finally turned on. The Iron Captain. The Iron Throne. The Greyjoys and Targaryens have so much in common! The Targaryens started out on a rocky island called Dragonstone on the east side of Westeros. The Greyjoys live on a rocky island part of the Iron Islands on the west side of Westeros. West is now east!

The Targaryens fly dragons upon the wind, while the Greyjoys have ships that sail on the power of the wind. The Greyjoys make their living by the sword, raiding the mainland for what they need. The Targaryens took the swords of their enemies and forged them into the Iron Throne. Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven is a powerful skin changer/greenseer that looks like an albino with his white hair, and covers one eye with a patch, yet sees everything. There's a saying that he has a thousand eyes and one. Euron Greyjoy is suspected to be a very powerful wizard who also seems to see everything...so much so that he's called the Crow's Eye. His coloring is the opposite of Bloodraven with dark black hair. He also wears an eye patch. I could list a few more similarities, but you get the picture. The main thing is the Greyjoys are now poised to secure one or more of Dany's dragons, and are plotting to conquer Westeros like Aegon the Great. Victarion already took the Shield Islands - again, on the west side of Westeros - the whole conquest evocative of the First Blackfyre Rebellion's landing on Massey's Hook on the east side of Westeros. The Shield Islands protect the Mander River, while Massey's Hook protects the Blackwater leading into Kings Landing.

I wrote out the parallels and inversions found in the Iron Captain, and then went back and redid the first four chapters before moving on to the sixth. The inversions began to stand out. Here is a link to my essay explaining the process. All the chapter analysis follow. I haven't finished all the chapters yet. I'm currently halfway through Cat of the Canals.

While working on The Prophet, the parallels between the religion of the Drowned God and the wights north of the Wall stood out plain as day! The men of the Nights Watch that died north of the Wall, rise again as wights. The believers of the Drowned God religion are ceremoniously drowned and resuscitated. Their priests blow air down into their lungs, and they rise again, stronger, harder. The order of the Nights Watch also has their traditions - among them taking vows. The NW that die north of the Wall become wights when they are resuscitated by the cold winds. They too rise stronger and harder.

I then began to notice that GRRM often used language to describe the area north of the Wall as evocative of the sea. This is where the idea of looking closer at Patchface's words began, because he talked about life under the sea - how little fish eat big fish, and how smoke rises up like bubbles.

On the surface Patchface's words don't make any sense. They are jabberwocky, which is a word from Lewis Carroll's book, Through the Lookinglass, which led to the idea that the Titled Chapters were a type of Jabberwocky that could be deciphered, and that the Wall was a giant mirror. After the initial idea of deciphering the Jabberwocky by looking into Alice's mirror, I took to heart Quaithe's words to Daenerys: 

Quote

  Dany’s wrist still tingled where Quaithe had touched her. “Where would you have me go?” she asked. 

   “To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

Then I wondered - what could possibly cause north to become south and west to become east? I determined that the Wall must be involved. It's like a giant mirror made of ice, and said to be warded with spells. Iron is a known substance used in warding. There are iron bars and iron swords in the Winterfell crypts, and thinking about all those iron swords made me think about the Ironborn, and this memory of Aeron: 

Quote

He had run before the Crow’s Eye as if he were still the weak thing he had been, but when the waves broke over his head they reminded once more that that man was dead. I was reborn from the sea, a harder man and stronger. No mortal man could frighten him, no more than the darkness could, nor the bones of his soul, the grey and grisly bones of his soul. The sound of a door opening, the scream of a rusted iron hinge.

Quote

Even a priest may doubt. Even a prophet may know terror. Aeron Damphair reached within himself for his god and discovered only silence. As a thousand voices shouted out his brother’s name, all he could hear was the scream of a rusted iron hinge.

In other words - I began to suspect that Euron had something to do with the wards upon the Wall - since Damphair has terrible memories of hearing a rusted (old) iron (warded) hinge (the Wall) opening. The "thousand voices" recalled Bloodraven's thousand eyes, and since Euron is Bloodraven's parallel inversion I'm quite convinced he's to blame for the unraveling of the wards.

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The possibility of anagrams leads to seeing all sorts of things that aren't there.  But if we have one we know is, then there are probably more. 

I don't understand Hightower and we light the way as an anagram.  Do you mean the name and the words are made of the same letters?   Words don't have an R. 

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On 11/11/2018 at 6:43 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Mance was at the top of the hill. Under his black wool and red silk he wore black ringmail and shaggy fur breeches, re ohis head was a great bronze-and-iron helm with raven wings at either temple. Is Mance "Ossa Ravenhead", a Viking warrior god of wisdom and strength? Wearing a winged helmet is commonly used to depict Celts, but the shaggy fur breeches imply he’s wearing a ritual costume that projects the wearer’s intention to become a divine predator.

I think that you are onto something, but I think that he is visually reenacting a previous leader of the Free Folk. This society has seen dire wolves and bears, even dragons. Why would a raven be considered a divine predator to the Free folk? 

Rather I think that the Free Folk society has a variant of the Old Gods religion that we see in the North. specifically, I think that the Free Folk traditions offer a priest class that the leader of the Free Folk is chosen from. This person exudes strength and provides the charisma for the Free Folk to follow them. Other members include Dalla and Val. 

 

I think his breeches and helm are the vestments for that position. 

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The mummers version portrayed the original white walkers as being created when a Children of the Forest ran an obsidian blade into the heart of a man, and show watchers have speculated that Bran is the Nights King, but I believe that GRRM will handle it differently in the books. It seems logical that man could have learned how to create white walkers from the Children, but I think the wildlings are currently responsible for bringing them back. The link to the reread thread that I provided above presents the evidence. 

Recall when the Nights Watch was attacked at the Fist. The wildings were following behind the white walkers and wight horde. It’s looks suspiciously like the white walkers are acting as the wilding vanguard.  Mance was dressed in ceremonial clothing with his raven winged helm while the wildlings scavenged the dead after the attack. To me it looks like he directed the attack.

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I think Mance is an unknowing agent of the Others. Like Jojen, Sam or Tormund they have been guided to execute part of the plan but don't have a wider view.

I think Val on the other hand seems to be higher up the chain. Her imagery as the Night's Queen and her ability to travel the Haunted Forest on her own are suspicious.

Quote

I am no southron lady but a woman of the free folk. I know the forest better than all your black-cloaked rangers. It holds no ghosts for me

Quote

You have my thanks, Lord Snow. For the half-blind horse, the salt cod, the free air. For hope

To add to this, the person sacrificing the captive in Bran's vision is a woman.

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7 hours ago, Tucu said:

I think Mance is an unknowing agent of the Others. Like Jojen, Sam or Tormund they have been guided to execute part of the plan but don't have a wider view.

I think Val on the other hand seems to be higher up the chain. Her imagery as the Night's Queen and her ability to travel the Haunted Forest on her own are suspicious.

To add to this, the person sacrificing the captive in Bran's vision is a woman.

IMO Val is a priestess that knows how to work ice magic, much like Melisandre is a priestess of fire magic. 

When Mance recounts his story about an old wisewoman's granddaughter mending his cloak, I believe this is how he met Dalla. He credits this encounter with his defection from the Nights Watch:  

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  Mance Rayder smiled, as Jon had hoped he would. The king was plainly a man who liked the sound of his own voice. “You will have heard stories of my desertion, I have no doubt.”

  “Some say it was for a crown. Some say for a woman. Others that you had the wildling blood.”

  “The wildling blood is the blood of the First Men, the same blood that flows in the veins of the Starks. As to a crown, do you see one?”

  “I see a woman.” He glanced at Dalla.

  Mance took her by the hand and pulled her close. “My lady is blameless. I met her on my return from your father’s castle. The Halfhand was carved of old oak, but I am made of flesh, and I have a great fondness for the charms of women . . . which makes me no different from three-quarters of the Watch. There are men still wearing black who have had ten times as many women as this poor king. You must guess again, Jon Snow.”

  Jon considered a moment. “The Halfhand said you had a passion for wildling music.”

  “I did. I do. That’s closer to the mark, yes. But not a hit.” Mance Rayder rose, unfastened the clasp that held his cloak, and swept it over the bench. “It was for this.”

  “A cloak?”  

  “The black wool cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch,” said the King-beyond-the-Wall. “One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. We were skinning it when the smell of blood drew a shadow-cat out of its lair. I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?” He chuckled. “It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me.” He swept the cloak back over his shoulders. “But at the Shadow Tower, I was given a new wool cloak from stores, black and black, and trimmed with black, to go with my black breeches and black boots, my black doublet and black mail. The new cloak had no frays nor rips nor tears . . . and most of all, no red. The men of the Night’s Watch dressed in black, Ser Denys Mallister reminded me sternly, as if I had forgotten. My old cloak was fit for burning now, he said.

  “I left the next morning . . . for a place where a kiss was not a crime, and a man could wear any cloak he chose.” He closed the clasp and sat back down again. “And you, Jon Snow?”

Mance may have taken Dalla for his wife, but it was her knowledge and skills learned from her grandmother that was his true motivation. The red silk used to patch his torn cloak was from Asshai - the same place Melisandre is from. Cloaks are often used to describe skin changing or wearing glamours. The mixing of fabrics - the red silk sewn to the black cloak - is another nod towards magic and very similar to the account of when Loras jousted Gregor Clegane - a scene that eerily echoes Meera's account of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, which is a known instance of magic:

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard VII

  When the Knight of Flowers made his entrance, a murmur ran through the crowd, and he heard Sansa's fervent whisper, "Oh, he's so beautiful." Ser Loras Tyrell was slender as a reed, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats. Across the boy's shoulders his cloak hung heavy. It was woven of forget-me-nots, real ones, hundreds of fresh blooms sewn to a heavy woolen cape.

  His courser was as slim as her rider, a beautiful grey mare, built for speed. Ser Gregor's huge stallion trumpeted as he caught her scent. The boy from Highgarden did something with his legs, and his horse pranced sideways, nimble as a dancer. Sansa clutched at his arm. "Father, don't let Ser Gregor hurt him," she said. Ned saw she was wearing the rose that Ser Loras had given her yesterday. Jory had told him about that as well.

Pretty Pig said it best: 

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A reed, cloaked in vines and flowers, on a slim, fast grey mare, facing off against a powerful opponent. The wolf girl concerned for the rider's safety against a bigger, stronger, and more formidable foe. The wolf girl favoring the rider because of an earlier personal connection. The grey mare's scent distracts the opponent's horse and allows "her" champion to win.

The man slender as a reed is Howland, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. Howland is “dressed” and “cloaked” or rather a skin-change-combination with him and Lyanna. The twining black vines and the blue forget-me-nots indicate a joined connection, which is what I suspect Mance's black and red cloak as symbolizing.

Mance knows exactly what he is doing. Dalla and Val must have known the ancient ritual of how to create a white shadow just as Melisandre knew how to birth a black shadow. This knowledge is what he used to convince the various wildling tribes to join together and make him King Beyond the Wall.

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I am not sure how much Mance knows. In some chapters he seems sincerely afraid of what is coming, but he is still a crow so he could be just lying. Val never shows much fear, except when Stannis attacks the camp:

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"Gods," Val whispered, "gods, why are they doing this?"

Val is probably higher than other in the chain of command, but she probably knows just bits of the plan.

Craster was not afraid of the WW or wights either and he seemed sure that the gods would help him survive the cold; he probably didn't know that he was really just a rabble piece in the big cyvasse game.

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6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Mance knows exactly what he is doing. Dalla and Val must have known the ancient ritual of how to create a white shadow just as Melisandre knew how to birth a black shadow. This knowledge is what he used to convince the various wildling tribes to join together and make him King Beyond the Wall.

This is kind of playing into my theory that all of the magic of the world is the same. If the walkers are just White Shadows, then functionally the only difference between Fire and Ice magic is the flavor. Mel doesn't need a big flashy ceremony to create her shadows, just some schmuck and access to magic. 

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

I am not sure how much Mance knows. In some chapters he seems sincerely afraid of what is coming, but he is still a crow so he could be just lying. Val never shows much fear, except when Stannis attacks the camp:

Val is probably higher than other in the chain of command, but even her probably knows just bits of the plan.

Craster was not afraid of the WW or wights either and he seemed sure that the gods would help him survive the cold; he probably didn't know that he was really just a rabble piece in the big cyvasse game.

Neither the wildlings nor the Nights Watch knew Stannis was coming, which is why Val was so confused. Dalla is the one that said magic was a doubled edged sword without a hilt - there’s no safe way to grasp it, so even the ones working the magic can be harmed by it. That is why the wildings dismembered the dead at the Fist. They didn’t want any wights bringing up the rear.

Its possible Craster wasn’t afraid, because he knew Mance was creating the white shadows, and his “godly man” act was just for show.

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