Heresy 213 Death aint what it used to be

[Frey family reunion]

17 hours ago, St Daga said:

To turn back to the idea presented early in this thread, there has been debate on whether Jon is dead and will be in need of resurrection. There has also been discussion, perhaps in Heresy 212, that both Bran and Arya might have died and also been resurrected on the down low (Bran with his fall and Arya with her drinking from the pool in the House of Black and White). Tyrion also had his drowning/near drowning in the Sorrows, and Dany has walked into Drogo's pyre and herself might have died and been reborn. 

So, taking all this into consideration, how ironic would it be if the 5 people that GRRM's initial outline for this story listed as "making it" through all three volumes all actually died earlier in the narrative and were reborn. They only "make it" to the end because they are not truly the same as when they started. That gives them all a Jesus-like quality, perhaps tied to them being children of gods or chosen by the gods?

If this is the case, then Jon's death and rebirth would need to be just as subtle as the possible deaths and rebirths of Bran, Arya, Tyrion and Daenerys. In the category of speculation but no confirmation, perhaps until the very conclusion of the story.

This would certainly set these five in a different category than other characters who we know have died and still manage to walk the earth, like Beric (I know he's dead now, but...) and Catelyn. And possibly Gregor Clegane fit's in this category as well. A much changed version of themselves then they were before, not just emotionally, but physically altered and emotionally distanced from who they were before.

Highly possible.  All of these characters you mentioned had their "deaths" and rebirths.  You could technically claim Bran's had two: his fall and then the false death of him and his brother, only to remerge from the crypts.  

Tyrion and Davos were both "reborn" at the Battle of Blackwater, literally being reborn amidst smoke and salt.  Theon "died", became Reek, only to be reborn as Theon again in Winterfell.

And then there is the transformation of Victarion, as BC has pointed out, his rebirth is the one time in a POV chapter that we seem to lose the POV before the end of the chapter.  

I just strongly believe that George has laid the groundwork to "break" Jon's consciousness through the stabbing:  Jon's best attributes escaping into Ghost, while his Shadow self remains to be resurrected.  But we shall see (maybe).

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Revising my thoughts on this somewhat. While I agree the parting guest gifts indicate they were no longer guests, feeding unaware guests human flesh may not remove any liability. I'm thinking on the Bael the Bard story and how his son killed him - cursing the son, even though the son killed his father unawares, he's still a kinslayer in the eyes of the old gods. Being unaware may not be protective enough for eating human flesh unawares, although I find it hard to believe the Children would be apposed to eating human flesh. It seems to me that they view any type of flesh as food, if the scattered bones in the caves are any indication.

Guest right is the issue in the Rat King story, the unknown cannibalism is not a problem, apparently!

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The Rat Cook had cooked the son of the Andal king in a big pie with onions, carrots, mushrooms, lots of pepper and salt, a rasher of bacon, and a dark red Dornish wine. Then he served him to his father, who praised the taste and had a second slice. Afterward the gods transformed the cook into a monstrous white rat who could only eat his own young. He had roamed the Nightfort ever since, devouring his children, but still his hunger was not sated. "It was not for murder that the gods cursed him," Old Nan said, "nor for serving the Andal king his son in a pie. A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guest beneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive." ASOS-Bran IV

Of course, Old Nan could be wrong!

Rereading this is rather interesting though, because Old Nan says that a man has a right to vengeance, and Godric Borrell tells Davos that Wyman Manderly has declared he will get vengeance against the killers of his son, Wendel, and Davos uses vengeance as part of his plea to Wyman while in the Merman's court. I don't think the word play is accidental. I still am highly suspicious of Wyman, but it seems unlikly he expected Wendel's death if he did plot against Robb at the Red Wedding. Still, I can't forget how smart I think Wyman is, and how he could be playing several games. Like a fat northern version of Petyr Baelish!

An interesting difference that I note is the Rat King story claims the Andal king was served his pie with Dornish Red, while Wyman makes a big deal to Roose  and the Freys about drinking their pie down with Arbor Gold. Arbor Gold in theory has a noted connection to lies and subterfuge. Is Wyman calling them out, not only for a murder, but for a lie?

 

[Melifeather]

18 hours ago, St Daga said:

To turn back to the idea presented early in this thread, there has been debate on whether Jon is dead and will be in need of resurrection. There has also been discussion, perhaps in Heresy 212, that both Bran and Arya might have died and also been resurrected on the down low (Bran with his fall and Arya with her drinking from the pool in the House of Black and White). Tyrion also had his drowning/near drowning in the Sorrows, and Dany has walked into Drogo's pyre and herself might have died and been reborn. 

So, taking all this into consideration, how ironic would it be if the 5 people that GRRM's initial outline for this story listed as "making it" through all three volumes all actually died earlier in the narrative and were reborn. They only "make it" to the end because they are not truly the same as when they started. That gives them all a Jesus-like quality, perhaps tied to them being children of gods or chosen by the gods?

If this is the case, then Jon's death and rebirth would need to be just as subtle as the possible deaths and rebirths of Bran, Arya, Tyrion and Daenerys. In the category of speculation but no confirmation, perhaps until the very conclusion of the story.

This would certainly set these five in a different category than other characters who we know have died and still manage to walk the earth, like Beric (I know he's dead now, but...) and Catelyn. And possibly Gregor Clegane fit's in this category as well. A much changed version of themselves then they were before, not just emotionally, but physically altered and emotionally distanced from who they were before.

OR, maybe their deaths were glitches on the wheel of time (time loops) much like people who believe we are living in a simulation.

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

If he feared the old gods would take revenge themselves (either on him or the Freys) he never would have made the pies, instead waiting for the old gods to take their own revenge. 

This is a good point, and I am reminded that the Manderly's follow the Faith of the Seven. Perhaps that is why he has no hope in the Old Gods's taking care of the Frey's. Or he didn't feel like he had time to wait. After all, Davos does think that Wyman looks like a corpse. Perhaps he is dying.

 

[St Daga]

11 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Highly possible.  All of these characters you mentioned had their "deaths" and rebirths.  You could technically claim Bran's had two: his fall and then the false death of him and his brother, only to remerge from the crypts.  

Tyrion and Davos were both "reborn" at the Battle of Blackwater, literally being reborn amidst smoke and salt.  Theon "died", became Reek, only to be reborn as Theon again in Winterfell.

And then there is the transformation of Victarion, as BC has pointed out, his rebirth is the one time in a POV chapter that we seem to lose the POV before the end of the chapter.  

I just strongly believe that George has laid the groundwork to "break" Jon's consciousness through the stabbing:  Jon's best attributes escaping into Ghost, while his Shadow self remains to be resurrected.  But we shall see (maybe).

Again, if Bran, Arya, Tyrion and Dany have died and been reborn, it is subtle. This would have to be the case with Jon, too. There would be no obvious split in his personality, nor an obvious change in himself of Ghost. If Jon's death and resurrection are obvious and he is much changed, then he mirror's Cat's arch and Beric's arc, not the questionable subtle death. Of course, it's a big IF about Bran, Arya, Tyrion and Dany, and they have all continued to have POV's in the story. There is no POV for Cat after her death and rebirth, and we never had a Beric POV to start with. I guess perhaps if (hopefully, when) we get the next book, we will have a clue about Jon from his having a POV or not.

And while I think there are plenty of symbolic resurrections, such as the Hound and Victarion, I am not sold they actually died. Davos is one whom I do think might have died in the Blackwater and was spit back out to continue his worldly mission. But, he too as a POV before and after this death, so he is different than Stoneheart! She can't be disguised as truly living while her flesh rots on her bones, but Davos and the rest are clearly different. 

IF Jon dies and is reborn, it should be like this. It can't be obvious. Otherwise his character boils down to a vengeful zombie like Cat, and we already have one of her, we don't need two. 

Hopefully, we get an answer some day.

I always have been curious about the story line involving Catelyn still being young enough to have a child. Is her current zombie form still capable of producing an child, and if so, who plants that seed???

[St Daga]

19 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

OR, maybe their deaths were glitches on the wheel of time (time loops) much like people who believe we are living in a simulation.

I have actually questioned that something like this might have happened to Ned, either in the war or at the toj showdown. Did he die, but somehow lived on to have his children?  The children of Ned Stark seem pretty important to this story.

[Frey family reunion]

54 minutes ago, St Daga said:

IF Jon dies and is reborn, it should be like this. It can't be obvious. Otherwise his character boils down to a vengeful zombie like Cat, and we already have one of her, we don't need two. 

But you're only concentrating on half the equation.  I think Jon's POV's voice lives on, but it lives on in Ghost, not in his resurrected body.  In other words, GRRM gets to do his Call of the Wild.  

Nor do I think that Jon's resurrection will mirror Cat.  After all, Lady Stoneheart is different from Beric.  Thoros resurrected Beric, but refused to do the same to Cat, because she was too far gone.  She lost too much of herself.  And then there is that intriguing possibility that you've discussed that Lady Stoneheart may be Cat/Robb or possibly even Cat/Robb/Grey Wind.   In other words, the Lord of Lightning is a much different character than Lady Stoneheart.

The mechanism of Jon's resurrection (or if you prefer healing) would probably be much different from both Beric and Cat's.  Mainly because Melisandre seems to have one tried and true method of creating powerful magic, burning people with King's blood.  

And if we look into the maw of the weirwood at Whitetree, we may have a hint at how Jon returns:  lashing those with King's blood to the Weirwoods in the corpse of 9 and setting them on fire.  If so, Jon's return may end up having some similarities to how the White Walkers are being created from Craster's sons.

[St Daga]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But you're only concentrating on half the equation.  I think Jon's POV's voice lives on, but it lives on in Ghost, not in his resurrected body.  In other words, GRRM gets to do his Call of the Wild.  

Nor do I think that Jon's resurrection will mirror Cat.  After all, Lady Stoneheart is different from Beric.  Thoros resurrected Beric, but refused to do the same to Cat, because she was too far gone.  She lost too much of herself.  And then there is that intriguing possibility that you've discussed that Lady Stoneheart may be Cat/Robb or possibly even Cat/Robb/Grey Wind.   In other words, the Lord of Lightning is a much different character than Lady Stoneheart.

Jon's imagery barely  hints at fire. This might sound crazy, but one thing that Cat and Beric have in common is red hair. Kissed by fire hair! Jon is dark haired. He also has ice and snow imagery all over him, so if there is a resurrection, I see that it would be ice related. This would then set him up opposite Catelyn/Stoneheart. 

And yes, I really do question what is living inside of Cat's remains. If it's a merger or synthesis of several characters, that might be the actual reason we don't see a POV. That would give to much away if GRRM want's there to be a shocking reveal about Cat/Robb and possibly Grey Wind.

I still can't see the benefit of a Ghost POV, but several paragraphs of a direwolves POV is more than enough for me, so that could be my personal preferences showing.

 

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The mechanism of Jon's resurrection (or if you prefer healing) would probably be much different from both Beric and Cat's.  Mainly because Melisandre seems to have one tried and true method of creating powerful magic, burning people with King's blood.  

And if we look into the maw of the weirwood at Whitetree, we may have a hint at how Jon returns:  lashing those with King's blood to the Weirwoods in the corpse of 9 and setting them on fire.  If so, Jon's return may end up having some similarities to how the White Walkers are being created from Craster's sons.

So far we have no evidence Melisandre has the power to bring someone back to life. She doesn't talk about it to anyone and she doesn't think about it in the one POV we have. Thoros has demonstrated this ability, and if someone is going to do it, then I expect it will be him. Now, if it happens with the burning of the weirwood grove with sacrifices as you predict, then I think it will be a complete accident on her part. Granted, I don't trust her character and neither do I have faith in her magic. 

We have no idea what happens to Craster's sons, so to have a fire mirror of that, would still be a huge mystery. I still toy with the idea that burning Alester Florent did nothing for Mel and the great winds that came to help the fleet travel north were just winds. This could be a technique that Mel used to convince people of her power, just as she did with the leaches. She seen those death's (Robb, Balon, Joffrey) happening, but she manipulated people into thinking that she (and they) helped make that happen. She is a scammer, a shyster, and though I think she has the best of intentions, I don't necessarily agree with her methods.

Now, I don't really trust Val either, but she has ice and snow and Other imagery all over her, almost as much as Jon does. This is seems more fitting for Jon. 

I am trying to be open to the idea of Jon's resurrection (I can't call it healing, but that's crafty of you) but I feel myself resisting. Perhaps time will allow me to be a bit more receptive. At this point, all we seem to have is time.

But what you describe is Jon being obviously dead, and then after some time, obviously alive.  If it were to echo the possibility we have hinted about Bran, Arya, Tyrion and Dany, then it should be more subtle than a ginormous bonfire! Unless Jon is just in a coma and no one ever thinks he is dead, then perhaps I can see this series of events. However, if such a thing as you theorize happens to Jon, I think he would hate that he lived and nine lives were snuffed out for his survival. That is extremely depressing but GRRM does like to torment peoples emotions, I think. His characters as well as his readers.

[St Daga]

@Frey family reunion, I have been giving some thought to the idea you presented about Mel misinterpreting the nine she sees north of the wall as rangers, instead of the weirwood grove of nine, which would be very interesting. We know she has some trouble with interpretation, and is doubting herself. Of course, that leads me to doubt her abilities, as well.

I was rereading the scene where Jon and Co find the wildlings north of the wall at the weirwood grove and there are some interesting things in that scene. It hints at nine lives total and three possible deaths, and these numbers also mirror the nine rangers Jon sent north and the fact that three comeback  as eyeless heads on spears.

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Nine, Tom Barleycorn had said, and nine there were, but two were dead and one so weak he might have died by morning. The six who remained included a mother and child, two old men, a wounded Thenn in battered bronze, and one of the Hornfoot folk, his bare feet so badly frostbitten that Jon knew at a glance he would never walk again. Most had been strangers to one another when they came to the grove, he learned subsequently; when Stannis broke Mance Rayder's host, they had fled into the woods to escape the carnage, wandered for a time, lost friends and kin to cold and starvation, and finally washed up here, too weak and weary to go on. "The gods are here," one of the old men said. "This was as good a place to die as any." ADWD-Jon VII

So, we have our nine listed. Two dead, one weak and close to death (a he, BTW), a mother, a child, two old men, a Thenn and a Hornfoot. Except, we are missing the giant! Does he not count? I found the mention of nine lives interesting in this grove of nine tree's, espcially since it's alluded that one will die and two already have, leaving six. This mirror's the nine rangers that Jon sent out, with three already dead and six apparently still alive. But ... what about the giant?

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The journey back took much longer than the journey to the grove. The giant's pace was a ponderous one, despite the length and girth of those legs, and he was forever stopping to knock snow off low-hanging limbs with his maul. The woman rode double with Rory, her son with Tom Barleycorn, the old men with Horse and Satin. The Thenn was frightened of the horses, however, and preferred to limp along despite his wounds. The Hornfoot man could not sit a saddle and had to be tied over the back of a garron like a sack of grain; so too the pale-faced crone with the stick-thin limbs, whom they had not been able to rouse.

They did the same with the two corpses, to the puzzlement of Iron Emmett. "They will only slow us, my lord," he said to Jon. "We should chop them up and burn them." ADWD-Jon VII

The giant is listed this time, then the woman, then her son (the child), the old men listed as riding separately, the Thenn, the Hornfoot, and a pale faced crone who had to be tied over a garron (is this the weak one, just paragraphs before listed as a he, who is so weak they won't last until morning) and the two bodies. Any way, 9 + 1 if you count the giant, but maybe the giant doesn't count. Or GRRM made a mistake and gave us too many lives. 

But, if your theory talks of nine sacrifices to bring back one life, even if it's by accident, then these lives at the weirwood circle mimic that a bit. Nine sacrifices plus Jon's life. If this does mirror nine trees or nine lives, does that mean that only three need to die for the magic to work? And is the extra soul that is unaccounted for Jon or is it Mel? Because some thing seems off in those numbers.

I am not sure what to make of the numbers, if anything. But the most interesting character of all of these, too me at least, is the "the pale-faced crone with the stick-thin limbs". Who is she and why did GRRM have Jon refer to her as a he before? (that could be an editing mistake, I guess) Her imagery is a bit weirwood like to me, pale face and stick thin limbs! The crone imagery ties her a bit to the Seven. So, she has old god and new god imagery!  Is she truly unconscious or is her conscious doing something else that makes her seem unarousable?

Perhaps none of this works with your theory, but I found it interesting since it involves the grove that you are predicting will be very important in Jon's future story line.

[St Daga]

On 9/14/2018 at 3:22 PM, Frey family reunion said:

But you're only concentrating on half the equation.  I think Jon's POV's voice lives on, but it lives on in Ghost, not in his resurrected body.  In other words, GRRM gets to do his Call of the Wild.  

Thinking on this  possibility a little bit. How long do you think this could last for? More than one POV chapter, or many? How will we distinguish it's Jon's voice and not just Ghost's?

And then, if Jon lives on in Ghost, what lives on in Jon's resurrected/healed body? Some other spirit that could be inhabiting Jon's skin?

In the past I have seen discussion about, and toyed with the idea, that we don't ever see a Jon POV again, but we do see Jon, seemingly carrying on with life, perhaps a little, but perhaps a lot, more vengeful! And only at the very end of the story will we realize that Jon is in Ghost, and we are left to wonder just what/who the hell is in Jon? This does fit GRRM's love of horror and sense of the macabre!

Or do you see Jon's conscious eventually reanimating his former body? I certainly do think you might be on to something important related to that weirwood grove of nine tree's/faces, as we don't see that grove often, but it does play a large role in Jon's connection/pledge to the Night's Watch.

In relation to another discussion on LH, that weirwood grove does seem destined to play some role yet to be determined. So I have been researching discussion about that grove of weirwoods and I came across a thought that perhaps the nine tree's were planted over the bodies of nine important people, or that nine important people were sacrificed when the tree's were planted. Also the nine tree's does perhaps connect in imagery to the Stark crown of iron and bronze, decorated with nine spikes/swords that Torhen submitted to Aegon. The crown of the King of Winter! That crown seems to be lost, but a new crown was forged, so could that mean that something new has to happen at this Grove of Nine weirwoods, just as the story has given us a new crown. What kind of magic could this entail. Perhaps this does hint at the crowning of a new king? That crown lies in Stoneheart's hands, I believe. Does it need to get north of the wall, and what role does it play in all of this?

 

[Janneyc1]

On 9/14/2018 at 5:22 PM, Frey family reunion said:

But you're only concentrating on half the equation.  I think Jon's POV's voice lives on, but it lives on in Ghost, not in his resurrected body.  In other words, GRRM gets to do his Call of the Wild.  

In GRRM's initial outline, he wanted Jon and Arya to get together. Which is creepy. He has obviously gone a different direction since then, but GRRM strikes me as a guy that doesn't like change and would want to keep plot points. Before to day, I always thought that Jon was going to come back, but just a bit colder. Your mentioning Call of the Wild  and the recollection of the initial manuscript has led me to start thinking that perhaps Jon will live on in Ghost, and will take control of the huge wolf pack in the Riverlands, led by Nymeria, who he could take as a mate. I don't think it would be as creepy as the initial coupling, but that coupling would still be there. 

 

Yes I mainly just want to see Ghost and Nymeria lead a wolf pack through the army of the undead and kick some ass. 

[Tucu]

57 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

In GRRM's initial outline, he wanted Jon and Arya to get together. Which is creepy. He has obviously gone a different direction since then, but GRRM strikes me as a guy that doesn't like change and would want to keep plot points. Before to day, I always thought that Jon was going to come back, but just a bit colder. Your mentioning Call of the Wild  and the recollection of the initial manuscript has led me to start thinking that perhaps Jon will live on in Ghost, and will take control of the huge wolf pack in the Riverlands, led by Nymeria, who he could take as a mate. I don't think it would be as creepy as the initial coupling, but that coupling would still be there. 

 

Yes I mainly just want to see Ghost and Nymeria lead a wolf pack through the army of the undead and kick some ass. 

There is a good chance that we will not see Jon until the end of TWoW or even later. For other reborn characters GRRM waited almost a book or more to reintroduce them. Beric died in AGoT, was only mentioned in ACoK and only reappeared in ASoS. We only have  glimpes and tales of Lady Stoneheart until the end of AFFC. Gregor and Sandor also dissapear for a long time. If we extend the concept to Theon being reborned as Reek, he also dissapears in ACoK and reappears in ADwD.

[Janneyc1]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

There is a good chance that we will not see Jon until the end of TWoW or even later. For other reborn characters GRRM waited almost a book or more to reintroduce them. Beric died in AGoT, was only mentioned in ACoK and only reappeared in ASoS. We only have  glimpes and tales of Lady Stoneheart until the end of AFFC. Gregor and Sandor also dissapear for a long time. If we extend the concept to Theon being reborned as Reek, he also dissapears in ACoK and reappears in ADwD.

Fair enough. I do like a bit of suspense. 

[Tucu]

38 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

Fair enough. I do like a bit of suspense. 

That is why I am thinking GRRM is going to do an equivalent to Death of Superman/Reign of the Supermen plotline. Something like creating multiple shadows out of Jon

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The Supermen were: Last Son of Krypton (Action Comics), a cold, emotionless Kryptonian persona; Superboy (Adventures of Superman), a teenage clone of Superman; Steel (Superman: The Man of Steel), an engineer who built a high-powered suit of armor to carry on Superman's legacy; and finally Cyborg Superman (Superman), who most resembled the real Man of Steel but who was a cybernetic organism

 

[Janneyc1]

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

That is why I am thinking GRRM is going to do an equivalent to Death of Superman/Reign of the Supermen plotline. Something like creating multiple shadows out of Jon

 

This would be really cool to see. I am excited to see where George takes this. 

[Tucu]

I found this quote from Stannis that hints at a multiverse or maybe a wheel of time:

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"Or you might have joined your strength to his to bring down the Lannisters," Davos protested. "Why not that? If she saw two futures, well . . . both cannot be true."

King Stannis pointed a finger. "There you err, Onion Knight. Some lights cast more than one shadow. Stand before the nightfire and you'll see for yourself. The flames shift and dance, never still. The shadows grow tall and short, and every man casts a dozen. Some are fainter than others, that's all. Well, men cast their shadows across the future as well. One shadow or many. Melisandre sees them all."

Could the nature of the shadowy creatures be as echoes of the wheel of time? It reminds me of the use of multiverse echoes as ghosts in the Bioshock Infinite game (in which the main character is himself pulled out of other universes everytime he dies).

Maybe instead of time travel elements we have a cyclic universe or cyclic multiverse. For example if we look at Lady Joanna's visit to Jamie we are not looking at a dream or a ghost but at an echo from an event from a previous cycle.

[Frey family reunion]

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 10:17 PM, St Daga said:

Jon's imagery barely  hints at fire. This might sound crazy, but one thing that Cat and Beric have in common is red hair. Kissed by fire hair! Jon is dark haired. He also has ice and snow imagery all over him, so if there is a resurrection, I see that it would be ice related. This would then set him up opposite Catelyn/Stoneheart. 

I agree with the red hair commonality between Cat and Beric.  I think that there is something to that. ( I would also look to House Redwyne and the fact that they married a first cousin back into the main line, as possible evidence that they are harboring a magical bloodline)

But back to Jon, this is why I believe the mechanism of his resurrection will be different from either Beric or Cat's.  I think that there is a bloodline in both Beric and Cat, that allowed for whatever mystical flame Thoros conjured up to facilitate their resurrection.  I agree that it is doubtful that Jon possesses this bloodline.  But if you believe that red hair and king's blood might be significant to allow for a red priest to perform a resurrection, then it just so happens that both of these ingredients are at hand at the Wall.  We have the red priestess Melisandre, and we have the red haired Gerrick Kingsblood.  And in the north, apparently there is some special significance to having red hair, at least according to Ygritte.

So whatever magic may be present in Cat and Beric's bloodline could possibly pass to Jon through the sacrifice of Gerrick Kingsblood. 

As for Jon's fire imagery, well we have that too.  

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I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn...

We have his burned hand, which he earned in destroying the Wights with fire.

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Jon tried to shout, but his voice was gone. Staggering to his feet, he kicked the arm away and snatched the lamp from the Old Bear’s fingers. The flame flickered and almost died. “Burn!” the raven cawed. “Burn, burn, burn!”

Spinning, Jon saw the drapes he’d ripped from the window. He flung the lamp into the puddled cloth with both hands. Metal crunched, glass shattered, oil spewed, and the hangings went up in a great whoosh of flame. The heat of it on his face was sweeter than any kiss Jon had ever known.

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“Spare me your but’s, boy,” Lord Mormont interrupted. “I would not be sitting here were it not for you and that beast of yours. You fought bravely … and more to the point, you thought quickly. Fire! Yes, damn it. We ought to have known. We ought to have remembered. The Long Night has come before. Oh, eight thousand years is a good while, to be sure … yet if the Night’s Watch does not remember, who will?”

“Who will,” chimed the talkative raven. “Who will.”

Then Aemon gives Jon the Jade Compendium  and specifically draws his attention to the passage concerning Lightbringer:

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“I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.”

Clydas blinked. “A sword that makes its own heat …”

“… would be a fine thing on the Wall.” Jon put aside his wine cup and drew on his black moleskin gloves.

This returns me to the idea that Jon's role in the story may not be Azor Ahai, but instead be that of the sword, Lightbringer.  Which is one of the things that leads me to believe that Jon will be broken, his consciousness/spirit split in two: Ghost (the hilt) and his shadow self resurrected by fire (the blade aka pointy end) and then reforged (his two consciousnesses reunite).

And of course we get Jon's infamous dream:

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Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist.

My gut still tells me that Jon is Stark through and through.  Stark on both his maternal and paternal side.  But if you look at Winterfell, you get a hint that ice water is not supposed to run in their veins.

Quote

Of all the rooms in Winterfell’s Great Keep, Catelyn’s bedchambers were the hottest. She seldom had to light a fire. The castle had been built over natural hot springs, and the scalding waters rushed through its walls and chambers like blood through a man’s body, driving the chill from the stone halls, filling the glass gardens with a moist warmth, keeping the earth from freezing. Open pools smoked day and night in a dozen small courtyards. That was a little thing, in summer; in winter, it was the difference between life and death.

Catelyn’s bath was always hot and steaming, and her walls warm to the touch. The warmth reminded her of Riverrun, of days in the sun with Lysa and Edmure, but Ned could never abide the heat. The Starks were made for the cold, he would tell her, and she would laugh and tell him in that case they had certainly built their castle in the wrong place.

In other words, if we liken Winterfell to the Starks, we have the imagery of "hot blood" running through their veins.  My guess is that the Winter Kings were not there to bring about winter, but instead their role may have been in ending it.  

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

I found this quote from Stannis that hints at a multiverse or maybe a wheel of time:

Could the nature of the shadowy creatures be as echoes of the wheel of time? It reminds me of the use of multiverse echoes as ghosts in the Bioshock Infinite game (in which the main character is himself pulled out of other universes everytime he dies).

Maybe instead of time travel elements we have a cyclic universe or cyclic multiverse. For example if we look at Lady Joanna's visit to Jamie we are not looking at a dream or a ghost but at an echo from an event from a previous cycle.

I was thinking back on Howland's prayer at Harrenhal for "a way to win", and wondered if either he or Bloodraven saw the future deaths of all the Stark wargs, including Jon, and that the reversal of the wheel of time (which I believe occurred during the tourney) was meant for them so that they would all find a way to not die? 

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

In other words, if we liken Winterfell to the Starks, we have the imagery of "hot blood" running through their veins.  My guess is that the Winter Kings were not there to bring about winter, but instead their role may have been in ending it.  

[Janneyc1]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My gut still tells me that Jon is Stark through and through.  Stark on both his maternal and paternal side.  But if you look at Winterfell, you get a hint that ice water is not supposed to run in their veins.

There are only a few ways that can happen... Do yo think that is why George introduced Jaime and Cersei so early? To get us... Immune to that kind of thing? It has been noted that Jon is basically the Starkiest Stark. 

 

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

In other words, if we liken Winterfell to the Starks, we have the imagery of "hot blood" running through their veins.  My guess is that the Winter Kings were not there to bring about winter, but instead their role may have been in ending it.

More evidence of this is Jon's steaming and smoking wound. 

Quote

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

This gives evidence to very warm blood. I could see the Kings of Winter being the ones to end winter, but I don't think they banished it. We have a few tales of them using the cold to their advantage. 

[SirArthur]

36 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

There are only a few ways that can happen... Do yo think that is why George introduced Jaime and Cersei so early? To get us... Immune to that kind of thing? It has been noted that Jon is basically the Starkiest Stark. 

We do not know what happened to the two sons of Artos Stark (granduncle of Rickard), both with children.  I do not know since when they exist in the universe, however Artos has a statue in the crypts, despite not being Lord of Winterfell. In theory there could be another (or two) Stark branches out there.

 

And then there is the issue if Stark look is Stark look and not ... e.g. Flint look.