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Heresy 213 Death aint what it used to be

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The chapter before had characters making enough sound to "wake a dragon" in the Winterfell crypts.  The idea of a dragon hiding in the crypts is intriguing, and I've searched for the hidden Winterfell dragon in every chapter since, but there is no follow up in later books. 

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Edric's burning is  the realization of Stannis, that there is no law or justice left. Edric is the proof, Stannis has no need for proof any longer. Nobody cares. 

Once he realizes that there is no future for Shireen, he will take measures. Stannis loves his daughter, he wants to see her on the Iron Throne. But situations change. 

Edited by SirArthur

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9 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The chapter before had characters making enough sound to "wake a dragon" in the Winterfell crypts.  The idea of a dragon hiding in the crypts is intriguing, and I've searched for the hidden Winterfell dragon in every chapter since, but there is no follow up in later books.

GRRM does use interesting words such as this, but is he teasing us, or is it a hint. That phrase is actually in the same chapter as Summer seeing what appears to be a dragon. If a dragon did emerge from Winterfell, how long had it been there? Is this the first time it has rose from the depths? My guess is that there is something to what happened to the Broken Tower in the past (approx 150 years ago) and what has happened to the First Keep after the Sack of Winterfell by Ramsay. 

It seems like it must be a larger dragon that has emerged, and not a dragon egg hatching, or cracking from the heat of the fires, such as we see with Dany's egg's in Drogo's pyre. But how ironic if an egg has hatched at Winterfell but what we see from Summer's view is an image from the future, as @Feather Crystal speculates. The only reason I speculate this is possible is that GRRM end's Game with a bang and the obvious hatching of Dany's dragons. Could he end the second book with the same thing, only this time it's obscure and hidden. A more secretive series of events than what happens to Dany on the Dothraki Sea?

7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I’m thinking it’s prophetic, like how Melisandre sees future events in the flames.

I can see this possibility, but then, is the vision Summer's or Bran's? Because it comes from Summer's part of Bran's POV, and what could make a direwolf have prophetic dreams? And the dragon vision isn't really in the flames, it involves the "smoke and ash clouded his eyes". And in the narrative, a great roar and a crash come after what appears to be the sighting of this dragon. So what is that? The crash could be a tower coming down, such as the side of the First Keep? But what is the great roar? Just the sound of the fire? Wind can roar too, as can water! Why is it greater all of sudden, if the fires had burned all night. That is what makes me think that something more than just a vision r/t to a dragon occurred. Like perhaps, here is the vision of what is to come, and then in the night, that vision comes true.

@Brad Stark  If there is a dragon on the loose after the sack of Winterfell, I don't think it's supposed to be easy to spot. If it is an ice dragon (which I admit does seem odd if it was born/released by fire) then it might not be easy to spot at all. It might be the bitter cold winds or an icy feeling that passes by. Only one mention of an ice dragon comes before this incidence in the text, and that is from Osha. In Clash, Bran V, Bran asks Osha if she knows the way north, and she tells him he must follow the ice dragon north. She is referring to the constellation, but it's important in Bran's eventual journey north, and all of Jon's mentions of ice dragon's come after this point, as well as the fire of Winterfell. Bran also asks Osha of the Other's, the CotF, and she mentions giants in this chapter, seemingly several of our mythical races that live in Westeros. This chapter also has talks of green dreams from Jojen and mentions of Bran's wolf dreams. It's seems like a pretty important chapter it terms of information on what is magical in this world. Jojen also describes his prophecy of the sea coming to Winterfell.

This was discussed up thread, but in Clash, Bran II, Osha bathes in the cold, black pool in front of the weirwood. We don't see or hear her pray, but we don't know that she didn't. I think it's very interesting that Osha submerges in this strange black pool, then chapters later she is our first mention of an ice dragon in the story. While she is apparently talking about a constellation, I wonder that she isn't telling us something else important.

Whatever it is that Bran/Summer see's above Winterfell, it is only after this point that Jon start's mentioning ice dragons, both the constellation, but is other ways, as in cold winds, cold breath and winding, dark gullet's. I think something was released from Winterfell, and I speculate it was an ice dragon, and oddly enough, a dragon with icy power that was released by a great fire. The "sea" had also bathed Winterfell, so perhaps this mythical being underneath Wintefell needed water to wake it and fire to release it? 

Way back in Game, Eddard I, Ned's tells us that descending into the crypts felt like an "cold breath from deep within the earth", an icy chill coming up the steps. I think that was our first hint of "it" below Winterfell, whatever "it" is!

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I think it’s silly that Summer or Ghost would have POVs. It’s a Bran POV just like I believed it was a Jon POV. These are the thoughts of wargs not direwolves. They’re fully immersed in their direwolf consciousness and are thinking like direwolves. I may be alone with this opinion, but it’s how I see it. So yes, I believe it’s Bran’s prophetic vision while in Summer.

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On 9/7/2018 at 3:29 PM, Tucu said:

Checking the world book...Harlan was the one probably killed by the Faceless Men. The killer was Harwyn Hoare who became the first King of the Isles and the Rivers. He was the granfather of Black Harren who built Harrenhal.

Is this leading to Euron conquering the riverlands?

I read that backwards then. I basically saw it as evidence of a wheel of time if it was the other way. 

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6 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

below Winterfell, below Dragonstone, dragons, fyre wyrms, direwolves, ... what is missing ? a hellhound

Other than Symeon sapphire eyes seeing them, have we heard any other mention of hellhounds? In other literature, hellhounds are guardians of a specific place. Cerberus comes to mind as an example. That said, you would assume that two hellhounds would be allied and share similar goals. For that reason, I think that hellhounds are metaphor for two warriors waging an incredible fight. 

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19 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

I read that backwards then. I basically saw it as evidence of a wheel of time if it was the other way. 

There are still similarities between Euron and Harwyn. Harwyn oldest brother died of greyscale, Euron killed his oldest Harlon that had greyscale. Harwyn used a faceless man to kill Harlan; Euron used a faceless man to kill Balon.

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1 minute ago, Tucu said:

There are still similarities between Euron and Harwyn. Harwyn oldest brother died of greyscale, Euron killed his oldest Harlon that had greyscale. Harwyn used a faceless man to kill Harlan; Euron used a faceless man to kill Balon.

The greyscale is an interesting angle. It lends to my thinking that the original Ironborn were a leper colony. Greyscale seems to strike frequently there. The frequency of Greyscale and the Grey king play into this. 

 

The other part might be that the original Ironborn were a prison colony from the folks at Storms End. They literally hate the Storm Gods (which could be the first Storm Lords).

 

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23 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

The greyscale is an interesting angle. It lends to my thinking that the original Ironborn were a leper colony. Greyscale seems to strike frequently there. The frequency of Greyscale and the Grey king play into this. 

 

The other part might be that the original Ironborn were a prison colony from the folks at Storms End. They literally hate the Storm Gods (which could be the first Storm Lords).

 

Greyscale has a significance to the Iron Islands that I can't pinpoint yet. Greyscale transform people's skin into stone. The Iron Islands have the legendary Grey King whose skin turned grey (greyscale?) and his hall is legendary made from petrified sea dragon bones (that actually seem to be petrified weirwoods). So a lot of grey and a lot of stone in their mythology.

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2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Greyscale has a significance to the Iron Islands that I can't pinpoint yet. Greyscale transform people's skin into stone. The Iron Islands have the legendary Grey King whose skin turned grey (greyscale?) and his hall is legendary made from petrified sea dragon bones (that actually seem to be petrified weirwoods). So a lot of grey and a lot of stone in their mythology.

That is why I thought they might have been a leper colony to begin with. Think the sorrows but in Westeros. 

Edited by Janneyc1
had additional thought right after submisison

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2 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

That is why I thought they might have been a leper colony to begin with. Think the sorrows but in Westeros. 

I am thinking more of a curse than a colony. We seem to have a greenseer (Grey King) and a weirwood grove that were cursed. They also have places called Shatterstone, Hammerhorn and Blacktyde that remind me of the Hammer of the Waters.

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7 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I am thinking more of a curse than a colony. We seem to have a greenseer (Grey King) and a weirwood grove that were cursed. They also have places called Shatterstone, Hammerhorn and Blacktyde that remind me of the Hammer of the Waters.

Perhaps the drowning of the neck was originated on the Iron Islands? If they didn't have enough sacrifices to prep the spell, it could have rebounded onto the islands. 

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16 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

Perhaps the drowning of the neck was originated on the Iron Islands? If they didn't have enough sacrifices to prep the spell, it could have rebounded onto the islands. 


Yes, there seem to be a link between the Iron Islands, the Neck and the Hammer of the Waters. The Drowned God points to that too. GRRM also decided to name one of the legendary ironborn priests Galon Whitestaff linking back to the weirwoods.

 

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1 minute ago, Tucu said:


Yes, there seem to be a link between the Iron Islands, the Neck and the Hammer of the Waters. The Drowned God points to that too. GRRM also decided to name one of the legendary ironborn priests Galon Whitestaff linking back to the weirwoods.

 

Agreed. I have  seen speculation that the First Hammer was cast from Braavos or the Isle of Faces. Of the two, my money is on Braavos. It is also said that the CotF sacrificed their own children or 1000 men to cast the spell. My Money is on 1000 men. 

 

There is also the bit about the Old Gods hating the Kinslayer. If the CotF sacrificed their own, that would doom them in the eyes of their gods... If they attempted to cast the Hammer with their own, it may show upon the Iron Islands. 

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14 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

Agreed. I have  seen speculation that the First Hammer was cast from Braavos or the Isle of Faces. Of the two, my money is on Braavos. It is also said that the CotF sacrificed their own children or 1000 men to cast the spell. My Money is on 1000 men. 

 

There is also the bit about the Old Gods hating the Kinslayer. If the CotF sacrificed their own, that would doom them in the eyes of their gods... If they attempted to cast the Hammer with their own, it may show upon the Iron Islands. 

The CoTF cave visited by Arianne with all those weirwood faces reminds me a lot of the hall of faces in the House of Black and White. This cave seems to be the place where the CoTF sacrificed their own to break the Arm of Dorne.

One possibility that I am looking at is the abuse of magic attracting bodies like the Red Comet. The Known World map has a lot of places that look like they were hit by meteors, comets or maybe huge volcaones: Iron Islands, Isle of Faces, Arm of Dorne, Thousand Islands, Valyria, Basilisk Isles

Edited by Tucu

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1 minute ago, Tucu said:

The CoTF cave visited by Arianne with all those weirwood faces reminds me a lot of the hall of faces in the House of Black and White. This cave seems to be the place where the CoTF sacrificed their own to break the Arm of Dorne.

One possibility that I am looking at is the abuse of magic attracting bodies like the Red Comet. The Known World map has a lot of places that look like they were hit by meteors, comets or maybe huge volcaones: Iron Islands, Isle of Faces, Arm of Dorne, Thousand Islands, Valyria

That is an interesting thought. Add Hardhome to your list as well. Though if the abuse of magic caused the devastation, shouldn't there be trauma to the Rainwood then?

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26 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

That is an interesting thought. Add Hardhome to your list as well. Though if the abuse of magic caused the devastation, shouldn't there be trauma to the Rainwood then?

True, not sure if that was a near-miss or the CoTF had some control over where it hit.

We also have a few references linking comets with magic and dragons: Old Nan's tales, the Qartheen second moon and Nissa Nissa's cry cracking the moon while being killed by Lightbringer .

Edited by Tucu

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22 minutes ago, Tucu said:

True, not sure if that was a near-miss or the CoTF had some control over where it hit.

We also have a few references linking comets with magic and dragons: Old Nan's tales, the Qartheen second moon and Nissa Nissa's cry cracking the moon.

I love these little rabbit holes. 

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