Heresy 213 Death aint what it used to be

[Tucu]

15 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

I love these little rabbit holes. 

And I forgot about the cracks during Dany's dragon ritual:

Quote

The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

 

[Janneyc1]

Just now, Tucu said:

And I forgot about the cracks during Dany's dragon ritual:

 

I forgot that too, it does lend to the breaking of the moon. Have you seen the theory that there were two moons?

[Brad Stark]

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

I am thinking more of a curse than a colony. We seem to have a greenseer (Grey King) and a weirwood grove that were cursed. They also have places called Shatterstone, Hammerhorn and Blacktyde that remind me of the Hammer of the Waters.

Hammerhorn fits my theory the Hammer of Waters was caused by the Horn of Winter. 

[Brad Stark]

5 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

Other than Symeon sapphire eyes seeing them, have we heard any other mention of hellhounds? In other literature, hellhounds are guardians of a specific place. Cerberus comes to mind as an example. That said, you would assume that two hellhounds would be allied and share similar goals. For that reason, I think that hellhounds are metaphor for two warriors waging an incredible fight. 

Hellhounds are interesting as they link the idea of the Starks association with direwolves and the Starks association with death. 

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

Agreed. I have  seen speculation that the First Hammer was cast from Braavos or the Isle of Faces. Of the two, my money is on Braavos. It is also said that the CotF sacrificed their own children or 1000 men to cast the spell. My Money is on 1000 men. 

 

There is also the bit about the Old Gods hating the Kinslayer. If the CotF sacrificed their own, that would doom them in the eyes of their gods... If they attempted to cast the Hammer with their own, it may show upon the Iron Islands. 

The text says the Children called down their hammer from a tower at Moat Cailin.

It wouldn’t be kinslaying if the Children sacrificed gave of themselves willingly.

[Melifeather]

Here’s the whole passage:

She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder. 
  
  Only death can pay for life. 

  And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children. 

  The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

 

I actually liken the three eggs cracking to be parallels to the three “swords” the Children of the Forest forged to fight against human invaders. You see, I believe the Azor Ahai tale is an oral history of the three catastrophic natural disasters that are attributed to magic:

The breaking of the Arm if Dorne and hammer of waters were the sword tempered in water

The white walkers created to fight back were the sword tempered in the heart of a lion.

And the dragons were created to be the sword tempered in the heart of Nissa Nissa - aka they “broke” the moon by causing the Doom, which many speculate had a volcanic source. I theorize that the Children viewed their planet as a moon, and sister moon to the moon in the sky. If you think about it, lava can seem like the blood of a planet, moving underneath the ground, and it’s exit out of a volcano can be imagined as a giant wound spewing blood.

Notice the verbiage regarding the second egg and how the logs explode when the fire reached their secret hearts. To me this evokes the imagery from the show where the Children forced the obsidian blade into a human heart to turn him into a white walker.

[Tucu]

8 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

I forgot that too, it does lend to the breaking of the moon. Have you seen the theory that there were two moons?

I have seen this mentioned as an important theme in the essays by lucifermeanslighbringer.

Going back to the Grey King's use of the hammer backfiring on the ironborn, I remembered this quote from Dalla to Jon:

Quote

The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it

We can combine this with the Red Comet being called a sword a couple of times ("Red Sword", "sword that slays the season")

[St Daga]

19 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

19 hours ago, SirArthur said:

below Winterfell, below Dragonstone, dragons, fyre wyrms, direwolves, ... what is missing ? a hellhound

Other than Symeon sapphire eyes seeing them, have we heard any other mention of hellhounds? In other literature, hellhounds are guardians of a specific place. Cerberus comes to mind as an example. That said, you would assume that two hellhounds would be allied and share similar goals. For that reason, I think that hellhounds are metaphor for two warriors waging an incredible fight. 

Hellhounds could certainly be a metaphor for warriors fighting, such as Stark's or perhaps even brother's such as Gregor and Sandor. But what is interesting is that they were seen by the blind and then sapphire eyed Symeon. Did his eyes see actual happenings or magic? Present, past or future?

Hellhound's do get mention in the story. Three times hellhounds are linked to Dragonstone, twice from Cressin's POV and once from Davos. If hellhounds are linked as "guardians of a specific place" then we need to look at Dragonstone. Dragonstone is a place associated with caves and volcanic activity.

And Winterfell is also an option, and also associated with caves/crypts and thermal activity. The thermal activity is odd, since the crypt's are cold and seem to be "a frozen hell" reserved for the Stark's of Winterfell, but those crypts are lined with stone direwolves. The stone wolves and the stone Stark's could be considered hellhounds. I think the living direwolves could be a "hellhound" as well. Shaggydog has some strong resemblance in text to the Hound of the Baskervilles, a hellhound that is said to haunt a family, black with glowing eyes, and Lady is a dead direwolf buried in the Winterfell lichyard. Her bones may be dead but does her spirit still roam?

Armory Lorch and Gregor Clegane are also described as Tywin's hellhounds, which seems worth noting. Especially since Tywin himself is referred to, along with Ned, as one of the Usurper's dogs. Robert has several references to hell, either being there or sending people there, and Robert's dogs could be looked at as hellhounds as well. And Sandor Clegane himself as several referrals to "hound" and "hell" and going to hell in the story, and I think GRRM likes to hide hints in that way.

Even at Joffrey's death, a thin black dog creeps up and sniffs at Joffrey's corpse, perhaps a symbol of death and decent to the underworld.

I see a lot of hellhound references in the text, although not all of them are direct.

 

[Janneyc1]

41 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Hellhounds could certainly be a metaphor for warriors fighting, such as Stark's or perhaps even brother's such as Gregor and Sandor. But what is interesting is that they were seen by the blind and then sapphire eyed Symeon. Did his eyes see actual happenings or magic? Present, past or future?

Is it me or does it sound like this guy was resurrected as an Other?

 

42 minutes ago, St Daga said:

And Winterfell is also an option, and also associated with caves/crypts and thermal activity. The thermal activity is odd, since the crypt's are cold and seem to be "a frozen hell" reserved for the Stark's of Winterfell, but those crypts are lined with stone direwolves. The stone wolves and the stone Stark's could be considered hellhounds. I think the living direwolves could be a "hellhound" as well. Shaggydog has some strong resemblance in text to the Hound of the Baskervilles, a hellhound that is said to haunt a family, black with glowing eyes, and Lady is a dead direwolf buried in the Winterfell lichyard. Her bones may be dead but does her spirit still roam?

I was talking with someone over on Reddit about this, but Winterfell and Dragonstone are the two castles that we know of that are adorned with Gargoyles and statues of other beasts (including hellhounds if I am not mistaken). They both have obvious thermal activity and caves but is there anything else that could link these two castles? 

[SirArthur]

8 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

I was talking with someone over on Reddit about this, but Winterfell and Dragonstone are the two castles that we know of that are adorned with Gargoyles and statues of other beasts (including hellhounds if I am not mistaken). They both have obvious thermal activity and caves but is there anything else that could link these two castles? 

In case our told history is correct, we are lead to believe the Gargoyles on Dragonstone are 500 years old and Winterfell's First Keep (the oldest surviving part of the castle) has the same type of architecture. Yet Winterfell should be much older.

 

I don't know if a greek pantheon, roman pantheon situation is going on here. We always assumed a ( possible) faked history started around the time of the Andal invasion 

 

[Brad Stark]

The gargoyles and architecture are clues that Winterfell wasn't built by the First Men, and by association, the Starks weren't First Men.  It would be very much like GRRM to call them First Men knowing very well that there were men here before them. 

We see similar architecture between Winterfell and Dragonstone, similar features between the Dayne's and Targaryens, similar technogy between Dawn and Valyrian steel.

GRRM is also very focused on the Targaryen family, even though the story starts with the Starks, who remain central protagonists, he is publishing 2 books about the Targaryen family. 

Either these 2 families are going to end up being related, or they are somehow opposites. 

[St Daga]

14 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

And the dragons were created to be the sword tempered in the heart of Nissa Nissa - aka they “broke” the moon by causing the Doom, which many speculate had a volcanic source. I theorize that the Children viewed their planet as a moon, and sister moon to the moon in the sky. If you think about it, lava can seem like the blood of a planet, moving underneath the ground, and it’s exit out of a volcano can be imagined as a giant wound spewing blood.

Isn't the Doom of Valyria far too recent to fit this idea of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa, roughly only 400 years ago? I think that something tied to Valyria might have been involved with the Azor Ahai legend, but it must be something besides the Doom.

 

10 hours ago, Tucu said:

Going back to the Grey King's use of the hammer backfiring on the ironborn, I remembered this quote from Dalla to Jon:

Quote

The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it

We can combine this with the Red Comet being called a sword a couple of times ("Red Sword", "sword that slays the season")

This is an interesting thing that Dalla says to Jon. The Horned Lord was a wildling king who lived one or two thousand years ago (vague), according to the World Book. Yet Dalla quotes him like she has heard his words. This Horned Lord was also given credit for passing the wall with sorcery, so some of the sorcery must have worked for him. What is Dalla's connection to this Horned Lord, or is it something passed down in myth or song? My guess is that Dalla and Val belong to a sisterhood of some sort, not unlike the Night's Watch, and that sisterhood could tie to the weirwoods or this unnamed "Horned Lord" king of the wildlings!

Qyburn tells Cersei that blood magic is the most powerful kind of sorcery and Marwyn tells Sam that all Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. Sorcery does seem to be connected to the power of the House of Black and White as well. Do you think that sorcery is used to call the comet? But it can't be connected to every season's changing, so is it for a special season?

 

1 hour ago, Janneyc1 said:

Is it me or does it sound like this guy was resurrected as an Other?

I don't know. It's certainly possible, but he might also just have amazing blue eyes, much like Brienne of Tarth. There is something about her eyes, sapphire blue. Brienne might have started her story blind to most things in the world, but she is opening her eyes with each experience, and I wonder if Symeon Star-Eye's might not be an allusion to knowledge gained through life experience. It's also possible that Symeon wasn't an Other, but was a special type of wight. Perhaps his blood made him a different kind of wight than most of the cold, dead blue-eyed zombies we see in the story.

 

1 hour ago, Janneyc1 said:

I was talking with someone over on Reddit about this, but Winterfell and Dragonstone are the two castles that we know of that are adorned with Gargoyles and statues of other beasts (including hellhounds if I am not mistaken). They both have obvious thermal activity and caves but is there anything else that could link these two castles? 

There are similar things about these two castles, but Winterfell is made of grey granite, while Dragonstone seems to be made of the molded black stone that is common with Valyrian building. But they must have connections. I think the connection is the people who build these places. I would speculate that the Stark's and Valyrian's might share some blood. I actually think the Stark's might originate from Asshai. I don't know if that makes them allies; I think they could be ancient opposites or enemies. 

There is the heat source in common at these locations. Lot's of places in Westeros seem to have caves, but not all have geothermal activity. I have no idea how old the First Keep at Winterfell is but we are told it's the oldest building of the castle. That doesn't mean other buildings might have already fallen or been destroyed, and perhaps more of these structures has gargoyles. They might have used granite because it was a substance that was close to the location of the castle, or the granite structure might have a different purpose. As to Dragonstone, we don't know how old that place is either. I would think that something was on the Isle of Dragonstone before the Targaryen's fled Valyria. They might have modified, but I don't think the current castle is the first and only structure on the island. As old as the history of this world, I find that hard to believe.

 

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

The gargoyles and architecture are clues that Winterfell wasn't built by the First Men, and by association, the Starks weren't First Men.  It would be very much like GRRM to call them First Men knowing very well that there were men here before them. 

We see similar architecture between Winterfell and Dragonstone, similar features between the Dayne's and Targaryens, similar technogy between Dawn and Valyrian steel.

GRRM is also very focused on the Targaryen family, even though the story starts with the Starks, who remain central protagonists, he is publishing 2 books about the Targaryen family. 

Either these 2 families are going to end up being related, or they are somehow opposites. 

I think GRRM has written extensively about the Targaryens, because there’s nothing there that would be considered spoilers for ASOIAF.

6 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Isn't the Doom of Valyria far too recent to fit this idea of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa, roughly only 400 years ago? I think that something tied to Valyria might have been involved with the Azor Ahai legend, but it must be something besides the Doom.

 

This is an interesting thing that Dalla says to Jon. The Horned Lord was a wildling king who lived one or two thousand years ago (vague), according to the World Book. Yet Dalla quotes him like she has heard his words. This Horned Lord was also given credit for passing the wall with sorcery, so some of the sorcery must have worked for him. What is Dalla's connection to this Horned Lord, or is it something passed down in myth or song? My guess is that Dalla and Val belong to a sisterhood of some sort, not unlike the Night's Watch, and that sisterhood could tie to the weirwoods or this unnamed "Horned Lord" king of the wildlings!

Qyburn tells Cersei that blood magic is the most powerful kind of sorcery and Marwyn tells Sam that all Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. Sorcery does seem to be connected to the power of the House of Black and White as well. Do you think that sorcery is used to call the comet? But it can't be connected to every season's changing, so is it for a special season?

 

I don't know. It's certainly possible, but he might also just have amazing blue eyes, much like Brienne of Tarth. There is something about her eyes, sapphire blue. Brienne might have started her story blind to most things in the world, but she is opening her eyes with each experience, and I wonder if Symeon Star-Eye's might not be an allusion to knowledge gained through life experience. It's also possible that Symeon wasn't an Other, but was a special type of wight. Perhaps his blood made him a different kind of wight than most of the cold, dead blue-eyed zombies we see in the story.

 

There are similar things about these two castles, but Winterfell is made of grey granite, while Dragonstone seems to be made of the molded black stone that is common with Valyrian building. But they must have connections. I think the connection is the people who build these places. I would speculate that the Stark's and Valyrian's might share some blood. I actually think the Stark's might originate from Asshai. I don't know if that makes them allies; I think they could be ancient opposites or enemies. 

There is the heat source in common at these locations. Lot's of places in Westeros seem to have caves, but not all have geothermal activity. I have no idea how old the First Keep at Winterfell is but we are told it's the oldest building of the castle. That doesn't mean other buildings might have already fallen or been destroyed, and perhaps more of these structures has gargoyles. They might have used granite because it was a substance that was close to the location of the castle, or the granite structure might have a different purpose. As to Dragonstone, we don't know how old that place is either. I would think that something was on the Isle of Dragonstone before the Targaryen's fled Valyria. They might have modified, but I don't think the current castle is the first and only structure on the island. As old as the history of this world, I find that hard to believe.

 

 

I got a little sloppy there. I was thinking back to the dragonlords, which have been suspected of being the main impetus for the migrating groups. So let me revise that last egg cracking. Erase “the Doom” and replace with when the dragon eggs were first found and hatched in Valyria. 

[SirArthur]

33 minutes ago, St Daga said:

There are similar things about these two castles, but Winterfell is made of grey granite, while Dragonstone seems to be made of the molded black stone that is common with Valyrian building. But they must have connections. I think the connection is the people who build these places. I would speculate that the Stark's and Valyrian's might share some blood. I actually think the Stark's might originate from Asshai. I don't know if that makes them allies; I think they could be ancient opposites or enemies. 

There is the heat source in common at these locations. Lot's of places in Westeros seem to have caves, but not all have geothermal activity. I have no idea how old the First Keep at Winterfell is but we are told it's the oldest building of the castle. That doesn't mean other buildings might have already fallen or been destroyed, and perhaps more of these structures has gargoyles. They might have used granite because it was a substance that was close to the location of the castle, or the granite structure might have a different purpose. As to Dragonstone, we don't know how old that place is either. I would think that something was on the Isle of Dragonstone before the Targaryen's fled Valyria. They might have modified, but I don't think the current castle is the first and only structure on the island. As old as the history of this world, I find that hard to believe.

If at all, Moat Cailin can be comparded to Dragonstone, when it comes to black Walls. But the towers are different ... 

Anyway, the Starks speak the common tongue, so they are not first men. Just because you are related to romans does not mean you are a roman, if you do not share the culture. 

Take the Lombards. German ? Italian ? Being first men is a very static concept of heritage. And that over thousands of years. I would rather categorize the architecture through era. Both have gargoyles ? Same era. Winterfell has granite walls ? Later era. Moat Cailin and Dragonstone have black walls ? Same era. 

So Dragonstone seems to have an old Wall and some newish towers, while Winterfell's oldest part is "newish". And that newish is already a ruin. This tells us, that Winterfell is rebuild on a regular base. We even have one such event in our story: the burning of the castle (and mybe earlier the burning of the library). 

 

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

This is an interesting thing that Dalla says to Jon. The Horned Lord was a wildling king who lived one or two thousand years ago (vague), according to the World Book. Yet Dalla quotes him like she has heard his words. This Horned Lord was also given credit for passing the wall with sorcery, so some of the sorcery must have worked for him. What is Dalla's connection to this Horned Lord, or is it something passed down in myth or song? My guess is that Dalla and Val belong to a sisterhood of some sort, not unlike the Night's Watch, and that sisterhood could tie to the weirwoods or this unnamed "Horned Lord" king of the wildlings!

I agree that Dalla and Val belong to some special group. Val specifically reminds me of the Night's Queen:

Quote

A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars.

Val has blue eyes and comes back all dressed in white skins. And naughty GRRM has Jon glimpsing Val from "atop the Wall"

Quote

On the edge of the Wall an ornate brass Myrish eye stood on three spindly legs. Maester Aemon had once used it to peer at the stars, before his own eyes had failed him. Jon swung the tube down to have a look at the foe. Even at this distance there was no mistaking Mance Rayder's huge white tent, sewn together from the pelts of snow bears. The Myrish lenses brought the wildlings close enough for him to make out faces. Of Mance himself he saw no sign this morning, but his woman Dalla was outside tending the fire, while her sister Val milked a she-goat beside the tent

A bit of artistic license and Val is the Night's Queen.

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

Qyburn tells Cersei that blood magic is the most powerful kind of sorcery and Marwyn tells Sam that all Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. Sorcery does seem to be connected to the power of the House of Black and White as well. Do you think that sorcery is used to call the comet? But it can't be connected to every season's changing, so is it for a special season?

I think comets/meteors and probably larger bodies are affected by magic use/abuse. Some kind of magical relativity.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

If at all, Moat Cailin can be comparded to Dragonstone, when it comes to black Walls. But the towers are different ... 

Anyway, the Starks speak the common tongue, so they are not first men. Just because you are related to romans does not mean you are a roman, if you do not share the culture. 

Take the Lombards. German ? Italian ? Being first men is a very static concept of heritage. And that over thousands of years. I would rather categorize the architecture through era. Both have gargoyles ? Same era. Winterfell has granite walls ? Later era. Moat Cailin and Dragonstone have black walls ? Same era. 

So Dragonstone seems to have an old Wall and some newish towers, while Winterfell's oldest part is "newish". And that newish is already a ruin. This tells us, that Winterfell is rebuild on a regular base. We even have one such event in our story: the burning of the castle (and mybe earlier the burning of the library). 

 

I have wondered if there’s more history between the Starks and Manderlys, since the Manderlys are originally from the Reach near the Mander river. 

47 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I agree that Dalla and Val belong to some special group. Val specifically reminds me of the Night's Queen:

Val has blue eyes and comes back all dressed in white skins. And naughty GRRM has Jon glimpsing Val from "atop the Wall"

A bit of artistic license and Val is the Night's Queen.

I think comets/meteors and probably larger bodies are affected by magic use/abuse. Some kind of magical relativity.

I had forgotten this passage, but it is a repeat of the Lord Commander spying the Nights Queen from atop the Wall! It also sets Jon up to become the Nights King, but this time he’ll win against the Lord of Winterfell.

[SirArthur]

13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I have wondered if there’s more history between the Starks and Manderlys, since the Manderlys are originally from the Reach near the Mander river. 

The Peaks and Manderlys both married a daughter of the Garth X. But with help of the Tyrells his second cousin claimed the Throne and the Manderyls were expelled. Then he gave away his daugher to the Tyrells and after the death of his son, the Tyrells took over. 

I have a number of interesting observations:

- the concept of male second cousin over daughter seems already in place here. The council of 101 did not invent it. 

-it is strange that Garth and the Barrow King  both claim to be king of the first men, while there is a thousand years war between Stark and Barrow kings. 

-we have Garth ancestry for almost every Reacher House, even for the Peaks (same line as the Florents), but none for Manderlys.

 

As a thought concept I think the Manderlys could be a branch of house Stark, taking over the land of another branch (Greystarks)

 

[St Daga]

6 hours ago, SirArthur said:

If at all, Moat Cailin can be comparded to Dragonstone, when it comes to black Walls. But the towers are different ... 

Take the Lombards. German ? Italian ? Being first men is a very static concept of heritage. And that over thousands of years. I would rather categorize the architecture through era. Both have gargoyles ? Same era. Winterfell has granite walls ? Later era. Moat Cailin and Dragonstone have black walls ? Same era. 

So Dragonstone seems to have an old Wall and some newish towers, while Winterfell's oldest part is "newish". And that newish is already a ruin. This tells us, that Winterfell is rebuild on a regular base. We even have one such event in our story: the burning of the castle (and mybe earlier the burning of the library). 

It's hard to say what the original structures at Moat Cailin looked like. It's curtain wall seems to have been basalt, which is a volcanic stone. Only three towers remain, but there were supposedly 20 towers in the complex, plus a wooden keep. I speculate that perhaps every large outpost in the north had a tower at Moat Cailin, so powerful lords could come to Moat Cailin in times of war to help hold the causeway against invasion, but that is just a guess on my part. I don't know if the type of stone that the three remaining towers are made of are every mentioned. There is no mention of gargoyles at Moat Cailin, but I suppose it's possible they existed on some of the fallen towers.

Dragonstone is noted to be made of a fused black stone. While it's the same color as the walls at Moat Cailin, I doubt it's the same stuff. Or it could be made in part with basalt, but it's been changed by spells and sorcery. GRRM says that Valyrian spells could liquefy stone, make it pourable, moldble, which seems to make it different from what we see at Moat Cailin. Basalt isn't mentioned much in the text, three times in regards to Moat Cailin, once in relation to House Borrell's stronghold of Breakwater in Sisterton, and the World Book mentions that House Dandarrion's stronghold of Blackhaven also has walls of basalt. Even if basalt is used to make the "fused black stone", it's raw, and different in form, and certainly in the magic needed to work it.

We don't know how many structures Winterfell might have had over the years that no longer remain. The First Keep is said to be the oldest "remaining" structure, which indicates that other buildings have since fallen. No mention of basalt at Winterfell, but I am curious what material lies as the foundation of Winterfell's walls and towers. The walls are noted to be grey granite, and so are several towers and also the stones in the crypts. The granite does seem to set Winterfell apart from other structures.

 

6 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Anyway, the Starks speak the common tongue, so they are not first men. Just because you are related to romans does not mean you are a roman, if you do not share the culture. 

I don't know if language tells us anything at this point. I think the common tongue is spoken by most of the people in the north, and even the wildlings north of the wall speak the common tongue, although they can speak the Old Tongue, or some speak there own clan languages. I think the Thenn's are noted, along with the giants, for speaking the Old Tongue predominately. The arrival of the Andal's seems to have had a large cultural impact on all of Westeros, including in the language most commonly used.  GRRM himself tells us the Stark's are first men, along with many of the houses that have short, abrupt sounding family names. From the World Book, "Even their house names mark them out, for the First Men bore names that were short and blunt and to the point; names like Stark, Wull, Umber, and Stout all stem from the days when the Andals had no influence on the North."

 

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I have wondered if there’s more history between the Starks and Manderlys, since the Manderlys are originally from the Reach near the Mander river. 

 

4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

-we have Garth ancestry for almost every Reacher House, even for the Peaks (same line as the Florents), but none for Manderlys.

As a thought concept I think the Manderlys could be a branch of house Stark, taking over the land of another branch (Greystarks)

We might not have a direct line of lineage to tie the Manderly's to Garth Greenhand, but just their name indicates they did indeed come from the Reach. The family even claims that the Mander river was named for them, not the other way around. But it is possible that the Stark's and Manderly's do share some ancient bloodline. It makes sense that a reveal of the Manderly's and Stark's sharing blood might reveal to much about the endgame. The Greystark's rose in rebellion against the Stark's and their lands were given to the Manderly's to hold, among many other families. I personally think that House Manderly has been plotting against House Stark quite stealthily for some time, which would mirror House Greystark. 

The New Castle that the Manderly's built in White Harbor is said to resemble their reach stronghold of Dunstonbury. This name reminds me a bit about Glastonbury, which of course ties to the idea of King Arthur and this story does have some King Arthur/Excalibur imagery. Glastonbury Abbey lies near Glastonbury Tor.  A roofless tower sit's on the great tor, and I have speculated that a tor is important part of the mystery of the tower of joy, although I am not at all sold on it's location in Westeros. Perhaps the reach? I believe it was you, @SirArthur who mentioned Glastonbury in connection to my tor speculation.

Interestingly, the Wolf's Den, which is important in Stark history and was given to the Manderly's to hold when they came north, is noted to have crumbling black walls. The stone is never mentioned but perhaps this is basalt, too! 

[St Daga]

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I got a little sloppy there. I was thinking back to the dragonlords, which have been suspected of being the main impetus for the migrating groups. So let me revise that last egg cracking. Erase “the Doom” and replace with when the dragon eggs were first found and hatched in Valyria. 

Didn't this capability originate in Asshai? I guess that is unclear. It's said that dragons are said to originate in "the Shadow" which ties to the area around Asshai. So, perhaps you are correct to tie the art of dragon hatching to a magic that the people of Valyria used to gain immense power. Not just dragon binding, but dragon hatching! Doesn't the world book claim that it was people from Asshai who taught the Valyrian's the secrets of dragonbinding?

Asshai is said to be made of a black stone that seems to drink the sun, which is another interesting black stone in our story. And the roof of the House of the Undying in Qarth has black tiles that seem to drink the sun. Davos notes that Mel's ruby seems to drink the sunlight. Perhaps some of this sorcery power that causes item's to "drink the sun" are part of the Azor Ahai mythos. A sword that is said to burn red might be something that could be seen to drink the sun's heat or fire!

 

5 hours ago, Tucu said:

I agree that Dalla and Val belong to some special group. Val specifically reminds me of the Night's Queen:

Quote

A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars.

Val has blue eyes and comes back all dressed in white skins. And naughty GRRM has Jon glimpsing Val from "atop the Wall"

Val's seeming eye change from grey to blue is intriguing. Why do her eyes look different to Jon? Is his perception of her changing, as he grows more bewitched by her, in the same way that he seems to think she is more lovely each time he looks at her. Or did her eye's actually change color, which certainly ties to a power like we see with the Other's and the wights.

I agree that Val has a lot of Night's Queen imagery about her. And Jon does seem to want her. But the one person who promotes the idea that she is a princess and worthy of marriage is Stannis. It is he who wants to bind the power of the north through a marriage to her (to someone of his choosing) and it is Stannis who will hold the Nightfort, not Jon. I have wondered if by some twist of fate Stannis could take Val as a wife. Would he set Selyse aside, much in the way that Robert was rumored to have wished to set Cersei aside? We see that Stannis is  susceptible to Mel's charms, so is it possible he could do the same with Val? Honestly, I trust Val's motives no further than I trust Mel's motives, although, I would think that Val recognizes Jon's power is in part because of his Stark blood. Mostly just thinking on the fly here, and have no idea if something like this could actually work in the text. 

 

[Brad Stark]

Suppose the original King of Winter was a dragonlord, similar to the Valyrians but ice instead of fire.  A Stark, who was a First Man, killed him and married his daughters.  Now you have a first man culture and blood in with a bloodline like the Targaryens. 

Winterfell is similar architecture to Dragonstone but different architecture, material and technology.  Suppose someone from Valyria left and built their own fortress in the style of their home as well as they could using local resources.  Or suppose Winterfell is what Valyria looked like in the beginning before they learned to fuse stone.