Tagganaro Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 1 minute ago, Sea Dragon said: No, I said thinking for himself, like not letting other people tell him what to do. He is a ruler now. I did read what the other posted and Ghost never reacts to the boar. Jon is told so and so he makes that decision it will happen. Well, Jon isn't omniscient. He sees Ghost acting all riled up and crazy and thinks it's a response to Borroq. We as readers can obviously apply hindsight and we also see the parallels to Robb/Grey Wind, but Jon doesn't really have access to that knowledge. I think it's perfectly reasonable for Jon to assume that Ghost is reacting to Borroq and his boars and to try and keep them away from each other. Having said all that, as was noted above this is more plot device than anything else, but as with all/most things GRRM, he is thinking a step or 2 ahead and has a perfectly logical explanation for why Jon has Ghost locked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea Dragon Posted September 4, 2018 Author Share Posted September 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, Tagganaro said: Well, Jon isn't omniscient. He sees Ghost acting all riled up and crazy and thinks it's a response to Borroq. We as readers can obviously apply hindsight and we also see the parallels to Robb/Grey Wind, but Jon doesn't really have access to that knowledge. I think it's perfectly reasonable for Jon to assume that Ghost is reacting to Borroq and his boars and to try and keep them away from each other. Having said all that, as was noted above this is more plot device than anything else, but as with all/most things GRRM, he is thinking a step or 2 ahead and has a perfectly logical explanation for why Jon has Ghost locked up. Do you think this means Jon is a poor ruler? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagganaro Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said: Do you think this means Jon is a poor ruler? I think "poor ruler" is an overstatement and I don't quite see how Jon's hesitance to bring Ghost out when Jon has reason to suspect that Ghost is reacting to Borroq indicates that Jon is a poor ruler. Now in terms of overall looking at Jon's arc throughout ADWD, he certainly has some flaws as a leader but I would also not say he is "poor" simply because he ended up being assassinated (I think Jon inherited an impossible situation and did the best with it he could but that he also was a little too stubborn and dismissive of a guy like Bowen Marsh's concerns, no matter how unlikable and generally worthless Bowen Marsh was.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea Dragon Posted September 4, 2018 Author Share Posted September 4, 2018 1 minute ago, Tagganaro said: I think "poor ruler" is an overstatement and I don't quite see how Jon's hesitance to bring Ghost out when Jon has reason to suspect that Ghost is reacting to Borroq indicates that Jon is a poor ruler. Now in terms of overall looking at Jon's arc throughout ADWD, he certainly has some flaws as a leader but I would also not say he is "poor" simply because he ended up being assassinated (I think Jon inherited an impossible situation and did the best with it he could but that he also was a little too stubborn and dismissive of a guy like Bowen Marsh's concerns, no matter how unlikable and generally worthless Bowen Marsh was.) Wow. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus Snow Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 As this occurs in Jon's PoV we get his thoughts: Quote "That thing is the size of a bull, with tusks as long as swords. Ghost would go after him if he were loose, and one or both of them would not survive the meeting." "Easy, Ghost," Jon called. "Down. Sit, Ghost. Down." Yet when he made to touch him, the wolf bristled and bared his teeth. It's that bloody boar. Even in here, Ghost can smell his stink. Ghost would have followed as well, but as the wolf came padding after them, Jon grabbed him by the scruff of his neck and wrestled him back inside. Borroq might be amongst those gathering at the Shieldhall. The last thing he needed just now was his wolf savaging the skinchanger's boar. It's clear that Jon thinks - for himself - that Ghost is riled by the boar. Personally, the more I think on this whole shebang, the more I'm inclined to believe that it was Borroq himself that Ghost was warning against. Mel can misread her fires; Jon can misread his wolf's warnings. Mel is apposite, because she not only reveals that her own powers are stronger at the Wall, but also tells Jon that he is failing to tap his full power, also enhanced at the Wall. Jon's power is skinchanging. So is Borroq's - and Varamyr warned us that Borroq is verging on the abominable. I think at the Wall, Borroq became strong enough to warg the assassins, and this is what Ghost was feeling. Why would he? To deflect attention from himself - neither Jon's NW or wildling friends would take too kindly to Borroq setting his boar on to Jon, say, or killing him first hand. And there's also the possibility that Borroq was acting on behalf of another party who may have realised how strong he could be and who wanted Jon out of the way in a deniable manner. No doubt Borroq didn't fancy a second life as a rack of ribs in barbecue sauce.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 49 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said: No, I said thinking for himself, like not letting other people tell him what to do. He is a ruler now. I did read what the other posted and Ghost never reacts to the boar. Jon is told so and so he makes that decision it will happen. Apologies, I misunderstood. Still. Jon does think for himself. An argument could be made that thinking for himself rather than being a slave to others' opinions is what got him stabbed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Buster Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 On 8/31/2018 at 7:37 PM, Sea Dragon said: I get why he doesn't like Melisendre, but it seems really weird that he locked Ghost up. I have seen a couple of posts recently where people call Jon a moron. I guess he is not really thinking? That makes me sad because it is so obvious that Jon and Danerys are going to marry and rule together. I don't want to see Danerys with a guy who doesn't think ahead because that seems dangerous in this world. People called him that but it's not for locking up his dog. IIRC, it was his decision to execute Janos Slynt and send Mance to bring Arya to him that generated those comments. I don't think D + J is going to happen. Ice and Fire do not mix. Should not mix. Wilas Tyrell is my choice for Daenerys. He's the only groom who brings sufficient gravitas to the union. Aegon is another good choice. Arya is my choice for Jon. Jon is a passionate man who doesn't stick to the rules. He is just the type to cast aside customs and tradition to marry his half-sister Arya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Buster Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 Why did Jon lock Ghost up? To mollify the others around him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 17 hours ago, E.S. Dinah said: He is just the type to cast aside customs and tradition to marry his half-sister Arya. The line between "maverick" and "paedophile" is getting a bit blurred here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Here's Looking At You, Kid Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 Locking his dog up is one of the few smart decisions from Jon. That saved the mutt's life. Bowen Marsh and his brothers would have shot that dog full of arrows to stop the nutter lord snow from marching against the Boltons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Here's Looking At You, Kid Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 On 9/5/2018 at 5:43 PM, E.S. Dinah said: People called him that but it's not for locking up his dog. IIRC, it was his decision to execute Janos Slynt and send Mance to bring Arya to him that generated those comments. I don't think D + J is going to happen. Ice and Fire do not mix. Should not mix. Wilas Tyrell is my choice for Daenerys. He's the only groom who brings sufficient gravitas to the union. Aegon is another good choice. Arya is my choice for Jon. Jon is a passionate man who doesn't stick to the rules. He is just the type to cast aside customs and tradition to marry his half-sister Arya. 10 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: The line between "maverick" and "paedophile" is getting a bit blurred here. I don't think so. Jon is taking the big sleep. He's taking a permanent dirt nap. He's not going to marry anyone. I guess they may become mates when they live their lives in dog form but marriage is not required in the wolf world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Here's Looking At You, Kid Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 On 9/4/2018 at 10:55 AM, Sea Dragon said: No, I said thinking for himself, like not letting other people tell him what to do. He is a ruler now. I did read what the other posted and Ghost never reacts to the boar. Jon is told so and so he makes that decision it will happen. Jon thinking himself a ruler is what got him into big problems. It's the reason why he was killed. He's sleeping under the dirt. Jon is not a ruler. He is the elected leader of a brotherhood. He has to obey the rules of the brotherhood. The presence of the wildlings and the skinchanger made people uncomfortable. Taking Ghost out of the picture was the right decision. One of the few good decisions from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 6 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said: I guess they may become mates when they live their lives in dog form but marriage is not required in the wolf world. We really need Winds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targaryen Restoration Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 On 9/4/2018 at 11:02 AM, Sea Dragon said: Do you think this means Jon is a poor ruler? Jon is a poor ruler in general. Putting up Ghost in his quarters is not a reflection of his leadership though. It was a precaution to avoid problems. The other things he did, like ordering Mance to get Arya and the killing of Janos Slynt, those were examples of poor leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkz Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Targaryen Restoration said: Jon is a poor ruler in general. Putting up Ghost in his quarters is not a reflection of his leadership though. It was a precaution to avoid problems. The other things he did, like ordering Mance to get Arya and the killing of Janos Slynt, those were examples of poor leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 On 8/31/2018 at 7:37 PM, Sea Dragon said: I get why he doesn't like Melisendre, but it seems really weird that he locked Ghost up. I have seen a couple of posts recently where people call Jon a moron. I guess he is not really thinking? That makes me sad because it is so obvious that Jon and Danerys are going to marry and rule together. I don't want to see Danerys with a guy who doesn't think ahead because that seems dangerous in this world. I guess the wildlings were uncomfortable with a loose direwolf. Ghost and the other animals will get territorial. But you ask a fair question. Why not make the wildling confine his animals instead? He is the guest and the watch suffer his presence. He should have been the one to confine his other skins. Bringing the wildling warg in brought a lot of danger. The warg could have taken control of Ghost and stolen him from Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Buster Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 On 9/6/2018 at 10:59 AM, Shouldve Taken The Black said: The line between "maverick" and "paedophile" is getting a bit blurred here. It's not the only line that gets blurred in the novels. He already broke his oath and committed treason against the watch for Arya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 1 minute ago, E.S. Dinah said: It's not the only line that gets blurred in the novels. He already broke his oath and committed treason against the watch for Arya. No, he didn't. Go read the passage again. Jon's decision to March south is made because of Ramsay's threats. Against the NW, its LC, and their guests. And to make sure people would understand this, Martin gives us Jon's thoughts on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 On 9/4/2018 at 8:02 AM, Sea Dragon said: Do you think this means Jon is a poor ruler? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 On 9/24/2018 at 10:07 PM, E.S. Dinah said: It's not the only line that gets blurred in the novels. He already broke his oath and committed treason against the watch for Arya. Not really addressing my point here. I was saying that sleeping with your underage sister is not the act of a “maverick” but of a paedophile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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