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Sea Dragon

Why did Jon lock Ghost up?

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I get why he doesn't like Melisendre, but it seems really weird that he locked Ghost up. I have seen a couple of posts recently where people call Jon a moron. I guess he is not really thinking? That makes me sad because it is so obvious that Jon and Danerys are going to marry and rule together. I don't want to see Danerys with a guy who doesn't think ahead because that seems dangerous in this world. 

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50 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

I get why he doesn't like Melisendre, but it seems really weird that he locked Ghost up. I have seen a couple of posts recently where people call Jon a moron. I guess he is not really thinking? That makes me sad because it is so obvious that Jon and Danerys are going to marry and rule together. I don't want to see Danerys with a guy who doesn't think ahead because that seems dangerous in this world. 

Wasn't it because one of the wildling skinchanger's animals didn't like Ghost, so Tormund suggested they both lock up their animals for the time being. 

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Borroq's boar and Ghost were antsy to have a go at each other, so rather having to worry about chasing the direwolf around amidst all the rest, he locked him up. It is quite explicit in text and quite an obvious plot device, even if a plausible one. Managing an agitated predator the size of a small horse wouldn't be an easy task. 

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3 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Borroq's boar and Ghost were antsy to have a go at each other, so rather having to worry about chasing the direwolf around amidst all the rest, he locked him up. It is quite explicit in text and quite an obvious plot device, even if a plausible one. Managing an agitated predator the size of a small horse wouldn't be an easy task. 

Great point. 

Jon might have put many people at the Wall at risk if he allowed Ghost and the Boar to continue their apparent tension.

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Plot devise as The Sleeper said. GRRM needed Jon to get stabbed and he realises that Ghost would be a pretty persuasive preventive; the same way he had to get rid of the girls direwolves in order for their stories to go in the directions he wanted for them, so he invented a plot devise to have Ghost unable to defend Jon when his brothers came for him.  

Sometimes that is all there is to an event. Plot device. 

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There's also the fact that Ghost was acting weirdly, he had a go at Mully (I think?) and snarled at Jon too. So that plus the giant boar nearby, and he thought it'd be best to keep Ghost away.

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

There's also the fact that Ghost was acting weirdly, he had a go at Mully (I think?) and snarled at Jon too. So that plus the giant boar nearby, and he thought it'd be best to keep Ghost away.

I thought Ghost started acting weird after Jon locked him up. 

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6 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

I thought Ghost started acting weird after Jon locked him up. 

I think it's both, sorta? May be misremembering. 

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12 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

I thought Ghost started acting weird after Jon locked him up. 

That was when he tried to take a bite out of Mully, I think. It should be noted that it's not just Ghost who was acting weird, though. Mormont's raven was having his own brand of meltdown at the same time.

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Doesn’t Selyse complain and tell Jon to lock Ghost up also because he was scaring Shireen?  Also by lock up you mean leave him in his room correct? 

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18 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Ghost was acting strange because he could sense the danger Jon was in, just like Greywind could sense the danger Robb was in but like Robb Jon just locks him up and is murdered by his brothers. 

This very much. It was an obvious parallel of Robb and Jon.

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14 hours ago, Starkz said:

Doesn’t Selyse complain and tell Jon to lock Ghost up also because he was scaring Shireen?  Also by lock up you mean leave him in his room correct? 

Pretty much correct:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

"It is those duties I would speak of." She made her way down, the hem of her scarlet skirts swishing over the steps. It almost seemed as if she floated. "Where is your direwolf?"

"Asleep in my chambers. Her Grace does not allow Ghost in her presence. She claims he scares the princess. And so long as Borroq and his boar are about, I dare not let him loose." The skinchanger was to accompany Soren Shieldbreaker to Stonedoor once the wayns carrying the Sealskinner's clan to Greenguard returned. Until such time, Borroq had taken up residence in one of the ancient tombs beside the castle lichyard. The company of men long dead seemed to suit him better than that of the living, and his boar seemed happy rooting amongst the graves, well away from other animals. "That thing is the size of a bull, with tusks as long as swords. Ghost would go after him if he were loose, and one or both of them would not survive the meeting."

"Borroq is the least of your concerns. This ranging …"

<<snip>>

"Your fires have been known to lie."

"I have made mistakes, I have admitted as much, but—"

"A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady. Where is Stannis? What of Rattleshirt and his spearwives? Where is my sister?"

Hmmm? Borroq is the least of your concerns... really? You make nothing but mistakes... I wonder. Daggers in the dark, ok.

Mel sees Jon surrounded by skulls, so is Borroq when he's living in a tomb in the lichyard.

On 9/1/2018 at 1:49 PM, Widow's Watch said:

That was when he tried to take a bite out of Mully, I think. It should be noted that it's not just Ghost who was acting weird, though. Mormont's raven was having his own brand of meltdown at the same time.

Yep:
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

"Unless your lordship has some other white wolf, aye. I never seen him like this, m'lord. All wild-like, I mean."

He was not wrong, as Jon discovered for himself when he slipped inside the doors. The big white direwolf would not lie still. He paced from one end of the armory to the other, past the cold forge and back again. "Easy, Ghost," Jon called. "Down. Sit, Ghost. Down." Yet when he made to touch him, the wolf bristled and bared his teeth. It's that bloody boar. Even in here, Ghost can smell his stink.

Mormont's raven seemed agitated too. "Snow," the bird kept screaming. "Snow, snow, snow." Jon shooed him off, had Satin start a fire, then sent him out after Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck. "Bring a flagon of mulled wine as well."

 

Sort of like there's something wrong in Wargland, hmmm?

Then after the Pink Letter arrives:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

They talked for the best part of two hours.

Horse and Rory had replaced Fulk and Mully at the armory door with the change of watch. "With me," Jon told them, when the time came. Ghost would have followed as well, but as the wolf came padding after them, Jon grabbed him by the scruff of his neck and wrestled him back inside. Borroq might be amongst those gathering at the Shieldhall. The last thing he needed just now was his wolf savaging the skinchanger's boar.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

"I summoned you to make plans for the relief of Hardhome," Jon Snow began. "Thousands of the free folk are gathered there, trapped and starving, and we have had reports of dead things in the wood." To his left he saw Marsh and Yarwyck. Othell was surrounded by his builders, whilst Bowen had Wick Whittlestick, Left Hand Lew, and Alf of Runnymudd beside him. To his right, Soren Shieldbreaker sat with his arms crossed against his chest. Farther back, Jon saw Gavin the Trader and Harle the Handsome whispering together. Ygon Oldfather sat amongst his wives, Howd Wanderer alone. Borroq leaned against a wall in a dark corner. Mercifully, his boar was nowhere in evidence. "The ships I sent to take off Mother Mole and her people have been wracked by storms. We must send what help we can by land or let them die." Two of Queen Selyse's knights had come as well, Jon saw. Ser Narbert and Ser Benethon stood near the door at the foot of the hall. But the rest of the queen's men were conspicuous in their absence. "I had hoped to lead the ranging myself and bring back as many of the free folk as could survive the journey." A flash of red in the back of the hall caught Jon's eye. Lady Melisandre had arrived. "But now I find I cannot go to Hardhome. The ranging will be led by Tormund Giantsbane, known to you all. I have promised him as many men as he requires."

"And where will you be, crow?" Borroq thundered. "Hiding here in Castle Black with your white dog?"

"No. I ride south." Then Jon read them the letter Ramsay Snow had written.

we see the assassins together, but it is only Borroq who heckles Jon about Hardhome....

Then, when the knives go in:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

"For the Watch." Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

Of the two knifemen who were revealed in the text, both seemed to show signs of being unwilling to commit the act. Who were the third and fourth men? That'd be nice to know, although it probably doesn't matter.

I know it's been raised before as a theory, but I do believe there's not a few hints pointing towards Borroq doing the ultimate abomination and warging the assassins. If this is so, then could Jon have been killed (until further notice) not for the Pink Letter and Winterfell, but for Hardhome?

Plenty of indications in the text that Ghost was confined because Borroq was present, and that whole bit of 'Borroq is the least of your worries' from Mel tingles the spidey senses a bit.... especially as Borroq is first mentioned in the prologue by Varamyr:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

Other beasts were best left alone, the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels … Haggon did not hold with such. "Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won't like what you'd become." Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue."

Not all skinchangers felt the same, however. Once, when Lump was ten, Haggon had taken him to a gathering of such. The wargs were the most numerous in that company, the wolf-brothers, but the boy had found the others stranger and more fascinating. Borroq looked so much like his boar that all he lacked was tusks, Orell had his eagle, Briar her shadowcat (the moment he saw them, Lump wanted a shadowcat of his own), the goat woman Grisella …

This same Haggon who was always going on and on and on at Varamyr/Lump about how warging men was an abomination. I don't think with all this going on that Borroq is just a bit of local colour.

Throw in another abomination - eating of the flesh of man - and you get another pointer: 'long pork' is a common colloqialism, not to mention Sam specifically noticing the similar aromas of the two types of meat when cooked. I think this is all suggestive that Borroq may not be averse to warging men.

Ghost disliked Borroq from the very beginning, and the boar reciprocated, yet Borroq greets Jon as 'Brother' when they first meet. Varamyr/Lump's prologue - and also Orell's storyline - goes to show that the 'brotherhood' of skinchangers is a perilous thing and that wargs are seen slightly apart from the rest.

 

tl/dr: Why was Ghost locked up? Borroq. And maybe a bit more to it than just plot device....

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44 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Of the two knifemen who were revealed in the text, both seemed to show signs of being unwilling to commit the act. Who were the third and fourth men? That'd be nice to know, although it probably doesn't matter.

I think it matters where the other two are, especially in the case of Alf of Runnymudd because he is named as one of the men of the NW who took R'hllor as his god, making him a queen's man, but he's also the one who has a visceral reaction to the death of Garth Greyfeather. 

In any case, I think there's more going on than Ghost sensing the possible attempt on Jon's life. Ghost snarls at Jon. I think the corpses that are being kept in the ice cells that are sending both Ghost and the raven into a tizzy. I don't think it would be shocking to see them reanimated to add to the chaos at the Wall.

What I'm not a fan of is that Ghost like Grey Wind has a better chance of being killed since he is locked up than he would if he was free.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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5 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't think it would be shocking to see them reanimated to add to the chaos at the Wall.

I wouldn't bet against you on that.... those guys have been in cold storage for a decade now, they're probably getting  a bit bored :D

7 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think it matters where the other two are, especially in the case of Alf of Runnymudd because he is named as one of the men of the NW who took R'hllor as his god, making him a queen's man, but he's also the one who has a visceral reaction to the death of Garth Greyfeather.

Well, the Queen's Men were the other side of the coin I didn't follow up in my previous post. I mean, was it a coincidence that Wun Wun was playing dollies with Ser Patreck whilst everyone else was in the Shieldhall - apart from the Queen's men, who Jon noticed to be largely absent?

Selyse had already hoped Jon would die on the way to Hardhome, and now he has just changed his mind about going there... I haven't dug into this properly yet, but I do think there's an angle to work on here.

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Thanks guys but I really was asking why did Jon not stand up for himself and keep Ghost with him. I know the stuff about Selyse and Borroq, but Jon should have over ruled them. 

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8 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

Thanks guys but I really was asking why did Jon not stand up for himself and keep Ghost with him. I know the stuff about Selyse and Borroq, but Jon should have over ruled them. 

Like others have said, Borroq's boar.

Jon is just as concerned for Ghost's safety as others'.

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1 minute ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Like others have said, Borroq's boar.

Jon is just as concerned for Ghost's safety as others'.

I don't see where Borroq's boar really was causing a problem. Jon just thinks that because someone said something. Jon should be thinking for himself now. Not following what other people said to him. 

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2 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

I don't see where Borroq's boar really was causing a problem. Jon just thinks that because someone said something. Jon should be thinking for himself now. Not following what other people said to him. 

See what @Rufus Snow quoted above, Jon was worried that they would get into a fight, and one or both of them would be hurt or killed. That really is a problem.

I don't know why you think Jon should only be thinking about himself. He's Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, the last thing he should be doing is thinking about himself.

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1 minute ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

See what @Rufus Snow quoted above, Jon was worried that they would get into a fight, and one or both of them would be hurt or killed. That really is a problem.

I don't know why you think Jon should only be thinking about himself. He's Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, the last thing he should be doing is thinking about himself.

No, I said thinking for himself, like not letting other people tell him what to do. He is a ruler now. 

I did read what the other posted and Ghost never reacts to the boar. Jon is told so and so he makes that decision it will happen. 

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