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Number of secret identities you believe to exist in the series and how they will be revealed

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I think for all the secret identity theories, the most important question is to ask what narrative or thematic purpose it would serve to have said character be living in secret.

This is why the Septa Lemore = Ashara theories bother me.  It doesn't make sense, on any level.  There isn't any reason for it to be her, or to be Tyene Sand's mother, or anything along those lines.  Ditto Jaqen H'Ghar and Syrio Forel.  If the only qualification of "who is a character in hiding" is "what is physically possible" then the list is nearly endless.

I'm intrigued to see where or who Benjen Stark is, first and foremost, because that is a Chekhov's Gun that has to go off at some point.

I don't know that we'll ever figure it out, but I'd like to know whether Young Griff is Illyrio's son or not (and therefore likely a Blackfyre through the maternal line).

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5 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

This is why the Septa Lemore = Ashara theories bother me.  It doesn't make sense, on any level.  There isn't any reason for it to be her, ...  If the only qualification of "who is a character in hiding" is "what is physically possible" then the list is nearly endless.

I don't think you've read much about this theory then. Or possibly most of the detailed discussions were lost when the forum moved several years back.
Sheesh, I just checked the wiki, what is there is shameful. :blink:

Try the Tower of the Hand. I don't agree with everything he says (for example Brandon is a much better candidate to have dishonoured Ashara than Ned, both textually and narratively, whom he passes off as fact when we don't actually know), but at least there is enough analysis to give you a thorough grounding in the 'why Lemore being Ashara would narratively work'. IMO it is potentially one of the best working hidden narratives in the series. 
There are a LOT of narrative and collective data points that support Lemore = Ashara. The only flaw, is the eye colour, which is AVOIDED by GRRM. That one seems to be a deal-breaker for most people though, even though purple eyes often appear blue or grey.
Also note that although Tyrion questions her identity, he decides he doesn't care. He's also never met Ashara Dayne, nor had much to do with any Daynes.

 

My current "best" (ie what I think is best supported both textually and narratively, but still only one of many possibilities) narrative goes something like this.

Ashara was dishonoured by Brandon Stark, got pregnant and had a baby, reported stillborn but possibly actually her "sister" Allyria.
She was close to Rhaegar and Elia.
She is possibly involved with finding a wetnurse for Lyanna and sending Wylla to the ToJ (not directly supported, but Wylla seems to be from the Starfall area and Arthur was with Rhaegar and Lyanna, so....)
After the Sack, Varys got Aegon (or the Pisswater Prince) out of KL and on a boat down to Starfall).
Ned turns up at Starfall with Dawn, Jon, Wylla and news of Arthur's death.
More or less simultaneously (the timing would vaguely match, especially if Varys took a few weeks after the sack to get (F/)Aegon out of KL and onto a ship), Ashara receives news and/or instructions from Varys - possibly from the ship carrying (F/)Aegon and waiting offshore.
Before or shortly after Ned leaves, she fakes her death and boards the ship with (F/)Aegon to Essos.
She raises (F/)Aegon under Illyrio's care for several years until Jon Connington is brought into conspiracy.
She remains closely associated with what she believes is the son of her close friend (Elia) and her brother's close friend (Rhaegar), one of the highest level conspirators.


She is a Lady, dornish (golden skinned), close to forty years of age (Tyrion merely guessed and has history guessing ages wrong), had a child which is not in the picture, is closely associated with Elia and Rhaegar, has dark hair, would be a Targaryen loyalist not connected to the Martells (nor to Dany), swims (faked her death by diving into the sea, grew up by the sea), is clearly attractive, has secrets and needs to hide, speaks to Jon Connington (former Hand of the King) as an equal in private, and would be close to the ultimate possible 'witness' to Aegon's authenticity (even if Varys has pulled the wool over her eyes).

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The Obvious Ones (just for the sake of thoroughness)

Jon = son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark

Quiet Isle Gravedigger = Sandor "no longer the Hound" Clegane

KotLT = Lyanna Stark

Alleras = Sarella Sand

Ser Robert Strong = unGregor Clegane

Pate the Novice (AFFC epilogue) = Jaqen H'ghar

The Ghost of High Heart = Jenny of Oldstones' friend

The Not - So - Obvious

Young Griff = Aegon Mopatis-Blackfyre

The Ones You Should Have Figured Out But Haven't

The Quiet Isle Elder Brother = a third son of House Hogg

Ser Morgarth = also of House Hogg, perhaps the Elder Brother

Ser Shadrich = a bastard son of Reynard Reyne

note - all the clues to those who Brienne meets in AFfC are found in the Door of the Shield Painter.

Howland Reed = grandson of Duncan Targaryen and Jenny Reed

Mance Rayder = Manse Raider = I'm Ser Daenar = grandson of Baby Maegor Brightflame, infant son of Aerion the Monstrous

 

 

 

 

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On 9/19/2018 at 1:15 AM, cpg2016 said:

This is why the Septa Lemore = Ashara theories bother me.  It doesn't make sense, on any level.  There isn't any reason for it to be her, or to be Tyene Sand's mother, or anything along those lines. 

I think, that Septa Lemore is Lady Jayne Swann, that in 281 was saved by Barristan Selmy from Kingswood Brotherhood, so she is fAegon's mother, and the boy's father is Barristan. While Ashara Dayne for the last 15+ years was living under name Jyana Reed. Barristan will recognise Septa Lemore as Lady Jayne, so he will know, that fAegon is a fake prince, and could be his son. And Jyana's/Ashara's purpose is to tell Jon who he really is, and what happened at the Tower of Joy (because I think, that Ashara was also there, when Lyanna was giving birth to Jon), and to give to Jon the sword of Daynes, Dawn, which, in my opinion, is Azor Ahai's Lightbringer. Jon is new Azor Ahai. Also he is 1/8 Dayne, thru Aegon V's mother, Queen Dyanna Dayne, so Jon has a right to wield Dawn. So Ashara Dayne will play a role of the Lady of the Lake, the water fairy, that in some versions of Arthurian legends gave Excalibur to King Arthur. Jyana Reed is "water fairy", in certain sense - supposedly she has drowned in the sea, while actually she is living in The Neck, as Lady of Greywater Watch and "queen" of crannogmen.

Theories Septa Lemore/Jayne Swann and Jyana Reed/Ashara Dayne make sense, no?

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Riveting.  Well I'll throw in a couple that are not entirely my own, but have featured largely in conversations with ASOIAF friends.   Boy that was awkward, sorry.   

I sort of hope we NEVER find out who Septa Lemore is.  I like her mystery.  It's almost perfect.   If she did happen to turn out to be Ashara Dayne I would consider the omission of the eye color to be more hint than stupid trick.   Still she's a great mystery and I like it that she could be so many characters.   

The Mad Mouse is the Mad Mouse.   Brienne already met him and traveled with him and we know he isn't a lord of anything by any manner in which he spoke and behaved.   Howland Reed has far better things to do involving the safeguarding of the North, not saving Sansa.   Nope, not having it.   The Mad Mouse, OTOH, has been looking for Sansa and I believe he's stumbled upon her.   His objective is reward, no doubt.   I think he is pretty much what he appears to be.   Another self concerned loser bounty hunter.   Yawn.  

Howland Reed is way too busy being bitchen to have appeared in any real form other than a dream and stories.  If he shows up as a secret anything it will be in the North.  

Elder Brother spoke of 6 of Rhaegar's rubies appearing at the QI.  I assumed this was real rubies, but I'm sure that was so wrong.   I think these rubies were as many have surmised, Rhaegar's friends and supporters.   Lem Lemmoncloak is almost certainly Richard Lonmouth.   Reread the GOHH or better yet check out @Lady Gwynhyfvar's wonderful essay.   Good grief, I can't be the only person who LOVES Radio Westeros?  That's a done deal, take it to the bank.   I think it's likely that EB his own bad self is among Rhaegar's supporters.   Many have picked up on the unknown final disposition of Jonathor Darry as a likely ID.   Although I'm sure Elder Brother is someone, I can't be sure he's Darry.   There just isn't enough intel.   There is a brother playing a harp back on the QI.   We've got a kingsguard come gravedigger.  They are all someone else on the QI.  ANd who the heck are Septon Meribald and Dog, really?

How come no one is fighting over Tyrion is a Targ yet?  I don't care who his father is.   I love him just the way he was, when Tywin was around to hassle him.   I miss Tywin a lot.   

I'm sure old man Hightower and his daughter who haven't been around for 10 years are off pretending to be someones somewhere.  

Totally down with the whole Aegon/Illyrio/Serra/Varys Blackfyre thing.   I love it.  Maybe Connington is that 7th ruby they are waiting for on the QI?   

Who is the Shrouded Lord, The Vulture King and The Corsair King?   Come on, we can do a lot better!

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54 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

How come no one is fighting over Tyrion is a Targ yet?  I don't care who his father is.   I love him just the way he was, when Tywin was around to hassle him.   I miss Tywin a lot. 

I'll bite. I think Tyrion is a chimera of both Aerys' and Tywin's sons. I'm not sure who ate whom yet, but if we go on how Aerys screwed Tywin, I'd say Aerys' son "ate" Tywin's son. Joanna had twins the first time, so maybe Tyrion used to be twins too. Great stuff if you follow the Aerys/Tywin history.

57 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Good grief, I can't be the only person who LOVES Radio Westeros? 

Not the only one!

57 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Totally down with the whole Aegon/Illyrio/Serra/Varys Blackfyre thing.   I love it.  Maybe Connington is that 7th ruby they are waiting for on the QI?   

Who is the Shrouded Lord, The Vulture King and The Corsair King?   Come on, we can do a lot better!

I can't find a single way that Illyrio isn't consistent with Gerion Lannister. But as I don't see any Lannister symbols around Aegon and Gerion loved kids in general, I don't think Aegon is Illyrio's/Gerion's kid though it would be rich for Gerion who hated Tywin to replace Twyin's fake Baratheons for Gerion's fake Targ.

Escalating the crackpot - Illyrio is Gerion,..and also the Shrouded Lord. Illyrio can be broken down to sick river. In Greek myth, one of Hercules' labors is Geryon was a single person with three heads or three people joined at the stomach. Hercules had to steal his cattle. Tyrion compares Illyrio the cheese king to rotten sea cow washed up under Casterly Rock.

 

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2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I'll bite. I think Tyrion is a chimera of both Aerys' and Tywin's sons. I'm not sure who ate whom yet, but if we go on how Aerys screwed Tywin, I'd say Aerys' son "ate" Tywin's son. Joanna had twins the first time, so maybe Tyrion used to be twins too. Great stuff if you follow the Aerys/Tywin history.

Not the only one!

I can't find a single way that Illyrio isn't consistent with Gerion Lannister. But as I don't see any Lannister symbols around Aegon and Gerion loved kids in general, I don't think Aegon is Illyrio's/Gerion's kid though it would be rich for Gerion who hated Tywin to replace Twyin's fake Baratheons for Gerion's fake Targ.

Escalating the crackpot - Illyrio is Gerion,..and also the Shrouded Lord. Illyrio can be broken down to sick river. In Greek myth, one of Hercules' labors is Geryon was a single person with three heads or three people joined at the stomach. Hercules had to steal his cattle. Tyrion compares Illyrio the cheese king to rotten sea cow washed up under Casterly Rock.

 

Well done, as usual Lollygag.  Really nice little Dark Half going on with Tyrion.  I give it a rousing ghastly over merely diabolical.   You've got some frightening thoughts this evening.   Highly entertaining.   

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4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 

Elder Brother spoke of 6 of Rhaegar's rubies appearing at the QI.  I assumed this was real rubies, but I'm sure that was so wrong.   I think these rubies were as many have surmised, Rhaegar's friends and supporters.   Lem Lemmoncloak is almost certainly Richard Lonmouth.   Reread the GOHH or better yet check out @Lady Gwynhyfvar's wonderful essay.   Good grief, I can't be the only person who LOVES Radio Westeros?  That's a done deal, take it to the bank.   I think it's likely that EB his own bad self is among Rhaegar's supporters.   Many have picked up on the unknown final disposition of Jonathor Darry as a likely ID.   Although I'm sure Elder Brother is someone, I can't be sure he's Darry.   There just isn't enough intel.   There is a brother playing a harp back on the QI.   We've got a kingsguard come gravedigger.  They are all someone else on the QI.  ANd who the heck are Septon Meribald and Dog, really?

!

Haven't heard many of her podcasts cause I fall asleep listening to podcasts, but I'm wondering, since she's steeped in Arthuriana, as I am, if she made the connection between the Quiet Isle and Avalon/Isle of the Blessed.  It was the apples, and the circuitous route to get to the island that made me wonder if that was an allusion to Avalon, isle of apples, where Arthur went to die (and be reborn). Sure enough, a quick search revealed it to be Avalon, or going further back in myth to Avalon's antecedents, the Isle of the Blessed in Hades, where once again, heroes go to be reborn.  You can do a comparison of Avalon/Isle of the Blessed's description with the Quiet Isle yourselves and see there is no question.  That clinched the Hound for me, and so I had to wonder about Elder Brother and the rest too, and of course the rubies. Posted about this years ago now.  

But since we're talking about figures of the past, let me say I find any Septa or Brother with the least bit strange about them to be highly suspect.  In Arthuriana, if the characters don't die outright after a major battle lost, or a sin, they seem to hie off to abbeys or hermitages!  So Septas, Septons, Brothers - all fair game for speculation.  Also, anyone with Mal, Mel or Mor syllables in their name deserve a closer look, though I think Septa Mordaine 'might' be an exception, lol.

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53 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Haven't heard many of her podcasts cause I fall asleep listening to podcasts, but I'm wondering, since she's steeped in Arthuriana, as I am, if she made the connection between the Quiet Isle and Avalon/Isle of the Blessed.  It was the apples, and the circuitous route to get to the island that made me wonder if that was an allusion to Avalon, isle of apples, where Arthur went to die (and be reborn). Sure enough, a quick search revealed it to be Avalon, or going further back in myth to Avalon's antecedents, the Isle of the Blessed in Hades, where once again, heroes go to be reborn.  You can do a comparison of Avalon/Isle of the Blessed's description with the Quiet Isle yourselves and see there is no question.  That clinched the Hound for me, and so I had to wonder about Elder Brother and the rest too, and of course the rubies. Posted about this years ago now.  

But since we're talking about figures of the past, let me say I find any Septa or Brother with the least bit strange about them to be highly suspect.  In Arthuriana, if the characters don't die outright after a major battle lost, or a sin, they seem to hie off to abbeys or hermitages!  So Septas, Septons, Brothers - all fair game for speculation.  Also, anyone with Mal, Mel or Mor syllables in their name deserve a closer look, though I think Septa Mordaine 'might' be an exception, lol.

Radio Westeros is different if you haven't heard it, give it a try.   It definitely has an old time radio show quality to it.  They are wonderful conversationalists.  At any rate, I found all the famous essays through Google searches maybe you could check them out if you haven't yet read them.   I read LOTR when I was a kid.  I remember more of it than most books, but ASOIAF was really my gateway to fantasy.  I've read a few of the Legends of Arthur and the Knights but I could not speak with the authority you do, Lady.  My humble opinions are based of my experience with mysteries more than anything else.   Sure I see similarities between characters and places and situations, but it was not difficult to put Sandor Lives together with the clues.   Won't we feel very silly if we are wrong from any direction!  Tyrion is a Targ is probably the 1st mystery that really jumped out at me during my initial reads.  I'm sure there was another, but I can't recall what it is now.   I haven't looked at Septas or many of the Faith characters--my chat partner has far more classical knowledge than I and Elder Brother/QI is a place of fantastic mystery.  (I am excited to tell her about your Septons!)   This has been a lousy day turned lucky here for me as now there is an entire set of new characters to investigate.  Thanks for the tip!   

I would be interested if you have any ideas for possible alternate identities for Septon Meribald and Dog, who was found to have no guilt, if my memory is working again.   They don't need to be Rhaegar and Lyanna.   I'm far more interested in their real job.  Is Meribald (Mer was not on your list, but may be worth a look?) maybe a certain young Tarbeck who may have escaped or is he too old?  Exactly how is Meribald actually connected to both QI and the BwB?   Is there anything better than a juicy ASOIAF mystery?  

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3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Well done, as usual Lollygag.  Really nice little Dark Half going on with Tyrion.  I give it a rousing ghastly over merely diabolical.   You've got some frightening thoughts this evening.   Highly entertaining.   

Entertaining is the highest compliment for me! :cheers:

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Pretty Meris is Wenda the White Fawn, ex-leader of Kingswood Brotherhood.

Simon Toyne, the last leader of Kingswood Brotherhood, was brother of Myles Toyne, ex-captain-general of Golden Company.

Tattered Prince is Rodrik Stark, the Wandering Wolf. White and blue colors of Windblown symbolise snow and blue winter roses of Winterfell.

Johanna Swann, the Black Swan of Lys, was mother of Larra Rogare, and lover of Sharako Lohar, admiral of the Triarchy.

Serenei of Lys, last mistress of Aegon IV and mother of Shiera Seastar, was Larra Rogare, Aegon IV's mother.

The Bastard of Harrenhall, defeated in the tournament by Ser Arlan of Pennytree, was secret bastard-son of Aegon IV and Aegon's bastard-daughter, Jeyne Lothston. He was founder of House Whent, and one of his descendants was Minisa Whent, mother of Catelyn Tully, and his other descendant was great-grandfather of Petyr Baelish, sellsword from Braavos. So Cat and Petyr are cousins, probably third cousins.

Maynard Plumm, from The Mystery Knight novel, was Brynden Rivers, lord Bloodraven, in shadow-mask, same as Melisandre made for Mance Rayder/fake Rattleshirt. Melisandre was using as the shadow-artifact her ruby bracelet, and Shiera Seastar made for Bloodraven shadow-artifact from moonstone brooch.

Shadows in Drogo's tent, during Mirri Maz Duur's ritual were - "Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames." - Quaithe/Shiera Seastar, Maester Marwyn, Rodrik Stark, Thoros of Myr.

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I just thought of this one while writing on another thread.  It's likely heresy and not well-supported. But as someone else said, Allyria Dayne's age fits well with her being born within a year or thereabouts of Jon, and she is rather suspiciously born many years after the last known Dayne sibling.

So she might very well be Ashara Dayne's daughter if that child was not still-born. (My money is on Brandon as the father). But if the story of still-born is a lie, might the sex of the baby be too?  If you're spreading a lie to hide a child's survival, why specifically mention a daughter not generically a child.  In fact, if I were spreading it, for max misdirection, I'd say a still-born son.

Which kind of made me think of Jon, born within a year of whatever child Ashara might have.  Both of them as babies together at Starfall after the rebellion.

What if one looked like a Targ or Dayne and the other looked like a Stark?

We already have a baby switch with Dalla and Gilly's babies, so this can't be dismissed out of hand for that reason.

Brandon and Ashara's Stark-looking son goes to Winterfell with Ned, and Rhaegar and Lyanna's Targaryan-looking daughter is brought up at Starfall (I mean where else could a very Targ-looking kid be brought up without remark, because of the Dayne resemblance?)

It sounds ridiculous even to me but can it really be ruled out?  Jon's symbolism is often to the Starks but even the blue flower cannot be definitively tied to Lyanna, only to a stolen maidenhood with Stark involvement.  Was that Ashara?  What is really notable, however, is that he has very little symbolism denoting the Targaryans - Tyrion has more than he does.  

Think of the Reed's oath on ice and fire, long predating the arrival of the Targs.  If even then the Starks were associated with ice, as they seem to have been, which family would have been fire?  The Daynes seem obvious, not only from their looks and name (Day)ne but their Swords of Morning and Dawn. The battle between 'this is the end' Ned Stark and 'this is the beginning' Arthur Dayne is symbolically a battle between night and day.  Night kills day.  But after the night a new 'son/sun', amalgamation of both, in between time,  should arise as morning and Jon should be it with all his morning star symbolism. This should symbolically be the progression but it isn't, unless we substitute Rhaegar Targaryan for a Dayne as the Day.

I think this is one of the reasons why, because this symbolic pattern is expressed everywhere in the series, people still cling to Arthur Dayne as father, or the Ned-Ashara pairing as Jon's parents, despite all evidence to the contrary.  It's why I myself, long a R+L=J adherent, have always had a lingering doubt.

So That's why I don't dismiss this idea out of hand, that the new Sword of the Morning is Jon, son of Brandon and Ashara, and the third dragon, if such is needed, is Allyria Dayne, daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Howl if you want, I'm sick of the non R+L=J theories too, but I thought I'd put it out there as a slim possibility.

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4 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I just thought of this one while writing on another thread.  It's likely heresy and not well-supported. But as someone else said, Allyria Dayne's age fits well with her being born within a year or thereabouts of Jon, and she is rather suspiciously born many years after the last known Dayne sibling.

So she might very well be Ashara Dayne's daughter if that child was not still-born. (My money is on Brandon as the father). But if the story of still-born is a lie, might the sex of the baby be too?  If you're spreading a lie to hide a child's survival, why specifically mention a daughter not generically a child.  In fact, if I were spreading it, for max misdirection, I'd say a still-born son.

Which kind of made me think of Jon, born within a year of whatever child Ashara might have.  Both of them as babies together at Starfall after the rebellion.

What if one looked like a Targ or Dayne and the other looked like a Stark?

We already have a baby switch with Dalla and Gilly's babies, so this can't be dismissed out of hand for that reason.

Brandon and Ashara's Stark-looking son goes to Winterfell with Ned, and Rhaegar and Lyanna's Targaryan-looking daughter is brought up at Starfall (I mean where else could a very Targ-looking kid be brought up without remark, because of the Dayne resemblance?)

It sounds ridiculous even to me but can it really be ruled out?  Jon's symbolism is often to the Starks but even the blue flower cannot be definitively tied to Lyanna, only to a stolen maidenhood with Stark involvement.  Was that Ashara?  What is really notable, however, is that he has very little symbolism denoting the Targaryans - Tyrion has more than he does.  

Think of the Reed's oath on ice and fire, long predating the arrival of the Targs.  If even then the Starks were associated with ice, as they seem to have been, which family would have been fire?  The Daynes seem obvious, not only from their looks and name (Day)ne but their Swords of Morning and Dawn. The battle between 'this is the end' Ned Stark and 'this is the beginning' Arthur Dayne is symbolically a battle between night and day.  Night kills day.  But after the night a new 'son/sun', amalgamation of both, in between time,  should arise as morning and Jon should be it with all his morning star symbolism. This should symbolically be the progression but it isn't, unless we substitute Rhaegar Targaryan for a Dayne as the Day.

I think this is one of the reasons why, because this symbolic pattern is expressed everywhere in the series, people still cling to Arthur Dayne as father, or the Ned-Ashara pairing as Jon's parents, despite all evidence to the contrary.  It's why I myself, long a R+L=J adherent, have always had a lingering doubt.

So That's why I don't dismiss this idea out of hand, that the new Sword of the Morning is Jon, son of Brandon and Ashara, and the third dragon, if such is needed, is Allyria Dayne, daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Howl if you want, I'm sick of the non R+L=J theories too, but I thought I'd put it out there as a slim possibility.

I still like Septa More Dayne!   Let's break it down, because we aren't working with facts at all.   We know that Selmy thinks Dayne was dishonored, but was that by a Stark?   We know she turned to Stark (Brandon, Ned, Benjen or Lyanna--or a bannerman???)  Such curious wording here.   We assume this happened at Harrenhal.   That is about the only way Allyria's age fits.    I think she's 16 where Jon and Robb are 14?   Baby Dayne is 12 and claims to have been milk brothers with Jon.  Lady, what's wrong with this picture other than all the holes?   There are still women who serve as wetnurses professionally.   There are photos on magazines of 6 year-old children nursing.  Nursing a child is painful and boy babies do tend to be greedy making this a lousy choice for a profession.   Jon nursed to at least 2 years of age?   Really?  I think it more likely little Edric is older than 12.  Of course the title wetnurse may be a misnomer and Wylla was more Nanny than food?  More math because it's not as painful as realizing I've never met a little toddler boy who potty trained before 3 because they like the bottle.    

If we accept that all the statements are true, and there really isn't any reason not to, Allyria and Edric are 4 years apart in age.   Who were baby Dayne's parents?  Ashara was in her early 20's--maybe only 20, putting just 4 years between her and her alleged sister.  It's safe to assume that a woman could bear children as far as 30 years apart back in the day before the Godsend of tubal ligation.   It's equally as likely that there could have been a 2nd Lady Dayne married to the father of the entire bunch.  Where is that blasted Dayne family tree anyway?   The problem with accepting all statements as true is we have no real context for any of them.  

What is dishonor?   Ned was too chicken to ask for a twirl himself?  He was bunking with Howland Reed, who may well have been far more engaging than Ashara Dayne.   Was it bad form for a charismatic brother to just ask her to dance with his painfully shy bother?  Did some dastardly pole cat look down her shirt or grab her butt or kiss her on the lips after a dance and Selmy just didn't like it?  Inversely, was she raped and it was common knowledge?   Did someone refuse to dance with her?   Did someone try to monopolize her time?  Did Aerys bellow she smelled Dornish in front of the entire party?   Did Robert skeeze her?  Given our source for this information, it's likely some poor jerk simply didn't bow low enough following a dance.    The simple choice of the word "dishonor" here could be so misleading.   Being of a Marcher Lord house himself, would Selmy even consider a sexual advance to be dishonor?  

What does "turn to Stark" mean?   Not a Stark but Stark. Gee, there were only 4 freaking Starks there!  Without corroborating statements, which I think we should have and may have actually got in the KOLT story, who can say?  It is a mystery.  Would a little Crannogman just talking with this fair lady have been enough to send Selmy into a really bad mood for a really long time?     

But I like your idea rolling here and enjoy this mystery in particular.   I personally think Dayne was more Mata Hari than simple eye candy.   But that is a secret agenda, not identity.   Or is it?   

Sadly, we only get Ashara and her baby's story from Selmy, with a little jab from Cersei and Cat's jealous supposition.  I believe (read:can't really remember) Ashara was supposed to be pregnant when Ned returned Dawn to Starfall.  Wasn't it her grief for her dead child and brother that sent her to jump?  

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I still like Septa More Dayne!   Let's break it down, because we aren't working with facts at all.   We know that Selmy thinks Dayne was dishonored, but was that by a Stark?   We know she turned to Stark (Brandon, Ned, Benjen or Lyanna--or a bannerman???)  Such curious wording here.   We assume this happened at Harrenhal.   That is about the only way Allyria's age fits.    I think she's 16 where Jon and Robb are 14?   Baby Dayne is 12 and claims to have been milk brothers with Jon.  Lady, what's wrong with this picture other than all the holes?   There are still women who serve as wetnurses professionally.   There are photos on magazines of 6 year-old children nursing.  Nursing a child is painful and boy babies do tend to be greedy making this a lousy choice for a profession.   Jon nursed to at least 2 years of age?   Really?  I think it more likely little Edric is older than 12.  Of course the title wetnurse may be a misnomer and Wylla was more Nanny than food?  More math because it's not as painful as realizing I've never met a little toddler boy who potty trained before 3 because they like the bottle.    

If we accept that all the statements are true, and there really isn't any reason not to, Allyria and Edric are 4 years apart in age.   Who were baby Dayne's parents?  Ashara was in her early 20's--maybe only 20, putting just 4 years between her and her alleged sister.  It's safe to assume that a woman could bear children as far as 30 years apart back in the day before the Godsend of tubal ligation.   It's equally as likely that there could have been a 2nd Lady Dayne married to the father of the entire bunch.  Where is that blasted Dayne family tree anyway?   The problem with accepting all statements as true is we have no real context for any of them.  

What is dishonor?   Ned was too chicken to ask for a twirl himself?  He was bunking with Howland Reed, who may well have been far more engaging than Ashara Dayne.   Was it bad form for a charismatic brother to just ask her to dance with his painfully shy bother?  Did some dastardly pole cat look down her shirt or grab her butt or kiss her on the lips after a dance and Selmy just didn't like it?  Inversely, was she raped and it was common knowledge?   Did someone refuse to dance with her?   Did someone try to monopolize her time?  Did Aerys bellow she smelled Dornish in front of the entire party?   Did Robert skeeze her?  Given our source for this information, it's likely some poor jerk simply didn't bow low enough following a dance.    The simple choice of the word "dishonor" here could be so misleading.   Being of a Marcher Lord house himself, would Selmy even consider a sexual advance to be dishonor?  

What does "turn to Stark" mean?   Not a Stark but Stark. Gee, there were only 4 freaking Starks there!  Without corroborating statements, which I think we should have and may have actually got in the KOLT story, who can say?  It is a mystery.  Would a little Crannogman just talking with this fair lady have been enough to send Selmy into a really bad mood for a really long time?     

But I like your idea rolling here and enjoy this mystery in particular.   I personally think Dayne was more Mata Hari than simple eye candy.   But that is a secret agenda, not identity.   Or is it?   

Sadly, we only get Ashara and her baby's story from Selmy, with a little jab from Cersei and Cat's jealous supposition.  I believe (read:can't really remember) Ashara was supposed to be pregnant when Ned returned Dawn to Starfall.  Wasn't it her grief for her dead child and brother that sent her to jump?  

You sound punchy!  On a Sunday night,too! 

Sadly, while I am still attached to Miss Allyria Dayne being a scion of Brandon and Ashara, I must relinquish the glimmer of hope I momentarily experienced that it was she who was born in the ToJ to Rhaegar and Lyanna instead of Jon. The reason for this unsatisfactory conclusion? Timeline issues. If it were Jon who was conceived at Harrenhal to Ashara - I leave the choice of father to you- that would make him more than the 8 or 9 months older than Dany that Mr. Martin says he is.  Shocking that in the course of one afternoon one can conceive a brilliant theory, pump it up to balloon proportions, examine its hardiness from all angles, only to have it pierced and plummetted by that most  prosaic of blunt arrows - the Martin SSM.

My profound apologies for inciting what must only have been a time consuming fool's errand attempt at a breakdown based on so precarious a foundation as I submitted above. I take my curtsey of you, good sir or lady, and wish you a merry night..

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7 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

You sound punchy!  On a Sunday night,too! 

Sadly, while I am still attached to Miss Allyria Dayne being a scion of Brandon and Ashara, I must relinquish the glimmer of hope I momentarily experienced that it was she who was born in the ToJ to Rhaegar and Lyanna instead of Jon. The reason for this unsatisfactory conclusion? Timeline issues. If it were Jon who was conceived at Harrenhal to Ashara - I leave the choice of father to you- that would make him more than the 8 or 9 months older than Dany that Mr. Martin says he is.  Shocking that in the course of one afternoon one can conceive a brilliant theory, pump it up to balloon proportions, examine its hardiness from all angles, only to have it pierced and plummetted by that most  prosaic of blunt arrows - the Martin SSM.

My profound apologies for inciting what must only have been a time consuming fool's errand attempt at a breakdown based on so precarious a foundation as I submitted above. I take my curtsey of you, good sir or lady, and wish you a merry night..

Nono, Dear Lady, you have caused the whole Ashara Dayne thing to rear its ugly head in my consciousness.   You are duty bound to help me through this!  The best thing about ideas, right, wrong or indifferent, is that they often lead to closer examination.   I was info dumping in another topic while still musing over your ideas--over many ideas in this topic, truth told.   I have a new secret ID that I don't think anyone has lobbed yet.  Humor me, I get so few original ideas.   

Ashara Dayne is a big fat mystery.   Allyria and Edric are right up there.   We are investigating identities.  As I was trying to make sense of our goofy timeline it occurred to me that we don't actually understand when things happened.  I certainly don't.  Don't you let any of those balloons pop.  Let's just change tact and look at them differently.   Let's suppose that all our intel is true.  Dany is the child of Aerys and Rhaella.   Jon is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar.  Ashara Dayne did birth a child.   Why would Aerys allow Ashara Dayne to leave the Red keep when he was hell bent to hold Elia hostage?  Ashara's job was to help Elia.   I would think that with a new baby Elia would need a good deal of help.   This is NOT the time to allow any Dornish noble persons to exit.   Bear with me, this gets flat out strange here.  I submit to you that baby or not, Ashara was in Kings Landing during the sack and is in fact the person who told Ned where to find Lyanna.  Here we have 2 possible conspiracy branches:  Ashara conceived her child at Harrenhal and gave birth to a child she left or more likely sent to Starfall for sheer safety.  Hence Allyria, who would be older than we are told.  Or, Ashara never conceived a child and sent Elia's children away for safekeeping, claiming Rhaenys was Allyria, subtracting a year or so from her true age.   Sticky, but possible.  Though I'm not a huge fan of the dead having escaped.  In this same vein, why not send Baby Aegon too?   They've got a body double, the Pisswater Prince.   Get the little guy out of there.  Send him to Starfall and subtract from his age, too.  It doesn't really work but is a decent gateway to my secret ID here.  

Assuming Lady Dayne is lactating she would be able to continue her duties to Elia and her children.   Assuming Ashara remains in Kings Landing and survives the sack and is the person who told Ned where to find Lyanna wouldn't it be safer to just get her the hell out of KL, making her a companion on Ned's journey to the Tower of Joy?   I think we all suspect someone else was at the Tower of Joy who has not been named.   Most folks assume this is a maester, midwife or Wylla.   I'm going with Wylla.  Further I'm going to accuse Wylla of being yep, Ashara Dayne.  

I am dubious about the whole Elia's children escaped King's Landing.   That said, Allyria and Edric simply don't fit anything we actually know.  No, I don't really believe it, but anything is possible.  I think Allyria is likely Ashara's daughter, but I can't think of any other babies who fit Edric's age unless Edric is maybe Jojen?   Sable?  If he isn't actually the son of Ashara's father who the heck is he and why would he be named for Ned Stark?   

I hope punchy is a positive thing.   I've enjoyed your conversation and hope that I haven't in any way offended you as I look forward to a whole lot more from you, Lady.  Here is my own elaborate bowing curtsy to you.    

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@Lady Barbrey, addendum:   I screwed up with the Allyria/Ashara ages.  Seem to have misplaced 17 to 20 years in there somewhere.   Ashara was in her 20s about 20 years back.   Allyria is 16 or 17 roughly 20 years later.   Allyria is about 4 years older than Edric, not younger than Ashara.   A thousand apologies.   

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4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

@Lady Barbrey, addendum:   I screwed up with the Allyria/Ashara ages.  Seem to have misplaced 17 to 20 years in there somewhere.   Ashara was in her 20s about 20 years back.   Allyria is 16 or 17 roughly 20 years later.   Allyria is about 4 years older than Edric, not younger than Ashara.   A thousand apologies.   

No offense taken at all; that was just my amateur attempt to respond in like manner!

You've got some other theories you're introducing so let me stick to the few things I believe, supported by the text but as always open to question or upset.

Dany's parents are not in question for me.  She's Targ through and through in symbolism, action, dreams - everything.   She is definitely the Targ PtwP - she brought back dragons - but is she the world PtwP, the one that ends the Long Night? Dragons, as far as we know, weren't involved before so why assume they'd be involved now? This to me is a major displacement or intrusion or mix up of some kind in tales and prophecy.

Aegon's and Rhaenys's murders are also not in question for me unless we get better evidence.  There is always a chance, however, and Ashara could have been involved if such is the case because she was Lady in Waiting to Elia.  She switched a baby with Aegon, smuggled him out, arrived in Dorne , spread the tale about still-born babes (why?) and suicide, and brought him up with Illyrio as Septa Lemore (again why?). I haven't read Septa Lemore theories much but I'm guessing it goes like?

However, for now at least, I'm going on the assumption that what Barristan recollected or remembered has some truth to it.  Ashara got pregnant at Harrenhal - she looked to Stark (and Stark would mean Rickard or Brandon, incumbent or heir, normally, not the younger children, I've read too much historical romance! But That's kind of how naming works for the aristocracy.  Still, can't be certain how Martin meant Barristan to mean it, it just raised a little flag for me).  Moreover, he says women prefer fire to mud (meaning himself).  We see fire and we think Rhaegar, but in the context of a Stark, only Brandon fits the bill.  Quiet Wolf Ned or Wild Wolf, hot headed Brandon, who already has seduced a noble maid (really not the done thing; for inheritance reasons, pretty much every other women - peasants, widows, married women who've already provided heirs - are fair game but Brandon with Barbrey was unusual and shows he has no respect for that particular rule).  So in terms of character, Brandon is the Stark that Selmy is identifying.  The story Edric gives Arya is from a child repeating a story someone not much older told him, neither of whom were around.  But Barristan was at Harrenhal and a Kingsguard who would have heard the gossip at the time.

So I believe Brandon seduced Ashara at Harrenhal.  Not saying that can't be wrong, but saying for me at least he's heavily favoured.  

Moreover, I also believe she became pregnant at Harrenhal and three months later when that became evident, Rhaegar, Whent and her brother Arthur made a trip to the Riverlands to - quietly if possible - force Brandon to cancel his wedding to Cat, which was on the verge of happening, and marry Ashara instead.

Have to go.  Can continue later but you can read more about this in the last few pages of Sly When's thread if you want the meat of it - this is just the background.

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