Wealth and revenues of Westeros

[Alexander Targaryen]

Some of you might remember my thread in which we tried to determine the military strengths of the many noble houses of Westeros. This will be something similar, but this time we'll be looking at the economy and not the military (though the two are, of course, very closely related in determining the full power of a house).

What would be the annual revenue from the holdings of a landed knight? A minor lord? A great lord? What would be their personal wealth? What would be the wealth of a prominent great house such as the Manderlys, or a less money-minded great house such as the Umbers? For roleplaying purposes this is important to know, but there is little to no information in the books to cover this.

We do have the following information regarding prices:

6,000,000 gold dragons is an astonishing debt for the crown.

3,000,000 gold dragons were loaned to the crown from House Lannister (which appeared to go by fine without that kind of money).

900,674 gold dragons were loaned to the crown from the Faith of the Seven (which appeared to go by fine without that kind of money).

40,000 gold dragons is a very generous prize to the winner of the joust in a major tourney.

30,000 gold dragons is the monthly wage for 25 Lysene sellsail galleys (1,200 gold dragons a ship per month).

20,000 gold dragons is a very generous prize to the second-place in a major tourney jousting, or the winner of the melee.

10,000 gold dragons is a very generous prize to the winner of a major archery competition. It is also the bounty Lord Corlys Velaryon placed on his heir's murderer.

1,000 gold dragons is a respectable bounty for noble prisoners of great importance.

300 gold dragons is a formidable ransom for captured nobles.

100 gold dragons is a reasonable ransom for captured nobles. It can buy you 12 barrels of the finest Dornish wine, or a high-end Lysene prostitute (for employment?).

30 gold dragons is a normal prize for second place in a tournament.

5 gold dragons is the customary bribe for guards to let smugglers by.

1 gold dragon can buy you the maidenhead of a young prostitute.

800 silver stags (3.81 gold dragons) can buy you a full suit of good steel armor.

100 silver stags is a formidable bounty for important deserters.

10 silver stags is the normal bounty for an armed and dangerous deserter.

7 silver stags can buy you a murder from a professional assassin.

10 copper pennies can buy you a tent.

3 copper pennies can buy you a loaf of bread.

[Trigger Warning]

Honestly the value of money is so inconsistent that I wouldn't even bother getting into it. Anguy managed to blow 10,000 dragons on prostitutes and wine. 

[hodorisfaclessman]

I think grmm admited he messed up the money in first novel on rewrites  (as we as ages) so just take a 0 or 2 off the tourney prizes in your head

[Ran]

1 hour ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

I think grmm admited he messed up the money in first novel on rewrites  (as we as ages) so just take a 0 or 2 off the tourney prizes in your head

Nope. Never said that.

[hodorisfaclessman]

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

Nope. Never said that.

Coulda sworn he did,there were threads before discussing it mentioned it and it should all be 1/10th the amounts mentiondd

If not id take it that he sorta overdid the tourney prizes anyway

[Giant Ice Spider]

Considering that most noble houses seem to be able to afford very fine clothing of silk or velvet or vair that's even lined with gemstones.

I don't think we can determine actual numerical wealth - there just isn't enough info, sorry.

[Ran]

37 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

Coulda sworn he did,there were threads before discussing it mentioned it and it should all be 1/10th the amounts mentiondd

There are threads perhaps repeating the claim without any kind of substantiation. Against that, multiple editions of the novels have not adjusted the numbers, and GRRM himself has cited how prolifigate Robert was with his tourney prizes. 

I think you may be referring to a slightly different issue, which is specific to the scenario of the Hound carrying 9,000 gold coins with him when he left King's Landing. This is actually more-or-less possible, assuming very small, light gold coins (of which there are historical examples), but the easier solution would have been the Hound having less money or the Hound having a pack horse carrying the gold for him. 

[hodorisfaclessman]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

There are threads perhaps repeating the claim without any kind of substantiation. Against that, multiple editions of the novels have not adjusted the numbers, and GRRM himself has cited how prolifigate Robert was with his tourney prizes. 

I think you may be referring to a slightly different issue, which is specific to the scenario of the Hound carrying 9,000 gold coins with him when he left King's Landing. This is actually more-or-less possible, assuming very small, light gold coins (of which there are historical examples), but the easier solution would have been the Hound having less money or the Hound having a pack horse carrying the gold for him. 

True but  those novels havent adjusted the character ages either (first drafts we know had story stop every so ofte  then  time passing then story picking up  again and characters aging which was phased out in rewrite ) ..this lack of readjuating ages to dinished draft off course lead to creepy pair ups like dany and drogo 

I feel like the ages the tourney money has to be adjusted in readers head as a mistake that george would have written out if he wasnt under the gun for writing so slowly 

[Ran]

26 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

 

I feel like the ages the tourney money has to be adjusted in readers head as a mistake that george would have written out if he wasnt under the gun for writing so slowly 

The ages can't be adjusted because the characters act their age. Writing Bran and Arya and Sansa and Jon as being several years older in AGoT would require a lot more than just adjusting a number -- dialog, internal thoughts, etc. would also have to be changed.

The sums aren't being adjusted because George intended the prizes to be exorbitant. That's all. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

There are threads perhaps repeating the claim without any kind of substantiation. Against that, multiple editions of the novels have not adjusted the numbers, and GRRM himself has cited how prolifigate Robert was with his tourney prizes. 

I think you may be referring to a slightly different issue, which is specific to the scenario of the Hound carrying 9,000 gold coins with him when he left King's Landing. This is actually more-or-less possible, assuming very small, light gold coins (of which there are historical examples), but the easier solution would have been the Hound having less money or the Hound having a pack horse carrying the gold for him. 

Ran, I am convinced there was a report from a book signing or an interview where Martin said he wishes he could change the Hound’s prize money as it had been a mistake.

It has been referenced so many times over the years I would find it quite remarkable if it was a made up story.

[Ran]

53 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Ran, I am convinced there was a report from a book signing or an interview where Martin said he wishes he could change the Hound’s prize money as it had been a mistake.

It has been referenced so many times over the years I would find it quite remarkable if it was a made up story.

He wished he changed how much he was carrying, perhaps, possibly (citations are always good, of course, otherwise we get stuff that doesn't exist becoming "canon"; and looking around on the forum, I see you referred to this notion, and I again said I didn't think so, and it was left there...)

It's not the same as saying that the prizes themselves need to change. After all, the Hound was already only carrying a fraction of it, so why would he need to change the total amount rather than the amount he had with him, if he wanted gold dragons to have some weight to them?

 

[hodorisfaclessman]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

The ages can't be adjusted because the characters act their age. Writing Bran and Arya and Sansa and Jon as being several years older in AGoT would require a lot more than just adjusting a number -- dialog, internal thoughts, etc. would also have to be changed.

The sums aren't being adjusted because George intended the prizes to be exorbitant. That's all. 

Not several but 3-4 would be more than enough 

 

Again i think you are infering george is infalliable when he himself has said theres errors,he meant them to be exorbitant  yes but never so much that they are outta proportion to later sums mentioned for vast state expenses 

[Free Northman Reborn]

23 minutes ago, Ran said:

He wished he changed how much he was carrying, perhaps, possibly (citations are always good, of course, otherwise we get stuff that doesn't exist becoming "canon"; and looking around on the forum, I see you referred to this notion, and I again said I didn't think so, and it was left there...)

It's not the same as saying that the prizes themselves need to change. After all, the Hound was already only carrying a fraction of it, so why would he need to change the total amount rather than the amount he had with him, if he wanted gold dragons to have some weight to them?

 

I guess so. I must admit this is a frustrating one, as I have not been able to track down the actual quote again, but I and a lot of other people apparently have a fairly certain recollection of it.

I do think it was in the context of what Sandor could carry on his horse, yes. But it seems I am misremembering the details of Sandor's cargo, as I thought he had won 40k and not 10k dragons at the tourney. From what you're implying, the text probably indicated somewhere that he had only 10k of that 40k with him? It has been years since I read Storm of Swords, which I think is the book this passage is contained in. Maybe time for me to consult that Search of Ice and Fire function to track it down.

Either way, Martin's reference to it being too much seems pretty certain - in my head at least, for what it's worth.

[Ran]

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I guess so. I must admit this is a frustrating one, as I have not been able to track down the actual quote again, but I and a lot of other people apparently have a fairly certain recollection of it.

It's not in the SSM, it's not in any copy of any chat I can find, it's not referenced anywhere on the internet that I can see but in comments on this forum referring to the idea that George admitted it. It bothers me that no one seem to have the quote, much as people who keep insisting that GRRM has said he regrets the catspaw using a Valyrian steel dagger, another notion that has become something of an urban legend despite every person asked about a source can't provide it or ends up referring to someone else who makes the sourceless claim. 

Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it's rare for such details to have vanished. Maybe I haven't searched hard enough.  I think it's entirely possible GRRM did say, "Oh, didn't realize gold coins would weigh that much" if someone presented some particular example of gold coins (like the U.S. liberty $20 coin), but that doesn't change the fact that his commenting on how much Sandor had with him does not mean he saw a problem in the total size of the prizes at the tourney.

 

Quote

I do think it was in the context of what Sandor could carry on his horse, yes. But it seems I am misremembering the details of Sandor's cargo, as I thought he had won 40k and not 10k dragons at the tourney. From what you're implying, the text probably indicated somewhere that he had only 10k of that 40k with him?

Yes, he had 9,000 of the 40,000 he won. If George wanted gold coins to weigh, say, twice what a US quarter does, he could have said he had 3,000 coins instead of 9,000 without saying anything about his total prize. I've already shown that there are a wide range of historical gold coin weights, including commonly-used gold coins such as the Rhenish guilder (which came in at 3.5 grams), where no adjustment really needs to be changed... but I suspect George probably does imagine a certain heft to the coins, so yes, realistically, Sandor should have carried fewer coins or should have had a pack horse in addition to Stranger.

[Lord Varys]

For what it is worth, I actually do like the idea of those lavish price money Robert threw on the winners of the tourneys. It underlines what George called Robert's 'careless generosity' (also evident in him granting both his brothers great lordships of the Realm) which most definitely is one of the defining features of his popularity.

Robert certainly could be a great drinking buddy but what interests lords and knights and their heirs who had previously taken up arms against or were contemplating to follow him is what the hell they would get in return. And it seems Robert was a guy who threw rewards and privileges and money at such people left and right.

Moreover, it also underlines how the Realm could be so much in debt. Aerys II left a full treasury, and the Red Keep is likely going to have a very large treasury, being able to contain vast sums. 

Even if Littlefinger embezzled the Crown - he would have only started that when he became Master of Coin - a few years ago. But a financial wizard like Littlefinger was only necessary because Robert had already squandered the fortunes he inherited and indebted the Crown to a considerable degree.

Not to mention that there would have come a very large dowry with Cersei - Tywin is the richest man in the Realm, meaning Cersei would have brought a fortune into the royal family.

If one looks at the details like those price monies Robert Baratheon clearly is a much greater fool than is evident when one looks just at the broad strokes of the story.

As to the original question:

I don't think we have enough information to properly speculate about the economy of Westeros.

On the feudal level I'd say that a lord from the Reach or the West would laugh his ass off if he compared his incomes to those of the average lord in the North or the Iron Islands and perhaps even Dorne, but that would still give us no clue how well off the average lord (in those regions) is compared to the wealthy merchants of the large cities.

I'm under the impression that the wealth a man like Tobho Mott has acquired definitely greater than the wealth of the average poorer lord - at least in coin (not in land). And not being troubled with the burden of maintaining castles and paying garrisons and the like such merchants could actually make much better use of their movable wealth - the income in coin the poorer lords get might be needed completely or nearly completely to cover the running costs of maintaining a castle and the proper 'way of life' of a lord. Even if you are poor, you cannot afford to look too poor.

[Rufus Snow]

It all depends on how big a dragon is ultimately. I always imagined them being about an ounce - but in that case, Sandor's 9,000 coins would be around third of a ton, and the tourney prizes of 40k or so would be more than a ton. Not something you could slip in a pocket, or even on the back of a mule. You need a cart for that sort of amount. And a lot of guards, I guess....

[hodorisfaclessman]

Another issue from t.s  is the idea faith and lannisters are doing fine without the money owned

Cerseis pov shows the crown is are replaying ironbank and the faith so i have no doubt that they are also repaying lannisters in installments too (esp given tywins stance on borrowers not repaying) ..id say repayments of outstanding debts are a major part of the crowns expenses (til cersei eliminates ib repayments and faith)

Lf seems to have increased the crowns income by replacing useless minor nobles with his own men ,prob merchants etc men who can actualy do basic account and bookkeeping on top of his various schemes of putting the crowns gold to use

 

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

It all depends on how big a dragon is ultimately. I always imagined them being about an ounce - but in that case, Sandor's 9,000 coins would be around third of a ton, and the tourney prizes of 40k or so would be more than a ton. Not something you could slip in a pocket, or even on the back of a mule. You need a cart for that sort of amount. And a lot of guards, I guess....

The best way to get around that is to imagine that there are actually dragons with a larger denomination than just 'one dragon'. If there is a coin reading 'ten dragons' or even one reading 'a hundred dragons' then this problem disappears into thin air.

We have no reason to believe this is the case, but if you have issues with the thing at hand it is good possible solution.

[Free Northman Reborn]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The best way to get around that is to imagine that there are actually dragons with a larger denomination than just 'one dragon'. If there is a coin reading 'ten dragons' or even one reading 'a hundred dragons' then this problem disappears into thin air.

We have no reason to believe this is the case, but if you have issues with the thing at hand it is good possible solution.

Not sure how that solves anything. A coin worth 10 gold dragons would just weigh as much as ten one dragon coins, so no difference in the weight you have to carry around.

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Not sure how that solves anything. A coin worth 10 gold dragons would just weigh as much as ten one dragon coins, so no difference in the weight you have to carry around.

Not if people just write a number on the same kind of coin and just tell you it worth more than another - which is the whole point of a coinage and currency system. If they were truly as primitive as just using metal as a 'currency' there would be no need for official coinage at all.

And we even learn that only the king has the right to issue coins, making it illegal to pay with traitorous Blackfyre coins, etc.

It is true that people actually weigh coins and that the old Gardener coins Olenna likes to use on occasion weigh less than the Targaryen dragons, but overall the whole point of coinage is that you have an official standard currency, etc.