Wealth and revenues of Westeros

[Free Northman Reborn]

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not if people just write a number on the same kind of coin and just tell you it worth more than another - which is the whole point of a coinage and currency system. If they were truly as primitive as just using metal as a 'currency' there would be no need for official coinage at all.

And we even learn that only the king has the right to issue coins, making it illegal to pay with traitorous Blackfyre coins, etc.

It is true that people actually weigh coins and that the old Gardener coins Olenna likes to use on occasion weigh less than the Targaryen dragons, but overall the whole point of coinage is that you have an official standard currency, etc.

Come now. Then all you do is take one ten dragon coin, exchange it for ten one dragon coins that contains ten times as much gold by weight, sail over to Braavos where the merchants will only care about the weight of the gold. Swap it for ten ten dragon coins there and come back to Westeros with ten times as much money as before.

Of course the weight of the gold is what matters, not the number stamped on it.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Or even easier. Melt the coins down to gold ore. Ore has a market value. Then no one cares what number used to be stamped on it.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

Come now. Then all you do is take one ten dragon coin, exchange it for ten one dragon coins that contains ten times as much gold by weight, sail over to Braavos where the merchants will only care about the weight of the gold. Swap it for ten ten dragon coins there and come back to Westeros with ten times as much money as before.

Of course the weight of the gold is what matters, not the number stamped on it.

There are people out there who would deal and trade with gold and other precious metals, of course. They could melt down coins are make another use of the gold or silver therein. But who can afford to do that? Coins are first and foremost currency, not sources for raw metal. And we have no idea whether the amount of metal in a coin actually reflects the current price of that metal that's paid among traders in precious metals (assuming there are many of those - this is not a modern economy).

And until such a time we know how exactly the currency and coinage system of Westeros works we don't know how important the raw weight of the coins and the amount of gold, silver, etc. they contained was. We know that people do weigh coins but this doesn't mean they know the price of gold per ounce, say, it just means they check whether a gold coin actually contains as much gold as it is supposed to - to differentiate between an actual golden dragon and a forged one.

If gold, silver, etc. as such was the actual currency - and not coinage - they would be in no need of or use official coins issued by the Crown.

[Ran]

We see people refer to clipping and shaving of coins as a factor that has to be considered when assigning a value to a coin. You don't clip or shave coins if there is no intrinsic value in the content of the coin, and there's a great deal of evidence that coinage in the Middle Ages ultimately always returned to circulating by weight rather than by tale (that is, circulating on the basis of its face value rather than its weight).

I'm sure people do end up using things other than coins for trade purposes in Westeros. The weight of a gold necklace could act as a direct substitute for an equivalent amount of gold in coins or in silver. The reason coinage exists is because it helps standardize exchange, more than anything. It is convenient.

 

[Rufus Snow]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Not sure how that solves anything. A coin worth 10 gold dragons would just weigh as much as ten one dragon coins, so no difference in the weight you have to carry around.

It would work if the 'one ounce' coin I imagined was worth ten dragons rather than one dragon. For the one dragon coin would be one-tenth of an ounce, and so on. Effectively it would reduce tenfold the amount of gold needed to represent a given number of dragons - for example, Sandor's 9,000 dragons now comes down to roughly 30kg of gold, and that's about doable in a saddle bag (but still even the Hound isn't going to be carrying it in a purse at his waist....)

 

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There are people out there who would deal and trade with gold and other precious metals, of course. They could melt down coins are make another use of the gold or silver therein. But who can afford to do that? Coins are first and foremost currency, not sources for raw metal. And we have no idea whether the amount of metal in a coin actually reflects the current price of that metal that's paid among traders in precious metals (assuming there are many of those - this is not a modern economy).

And until such a time we know how exactly the currency and coinage system of Westeros works we don't know how important the raw weight of the coins and the amount of gold, silver, etc. they contained was. We know that people do weigh coins but this doesn't mean they know the price of gold per ounce, say, it just means they check whether a gold coin actually contains as much gold as it is supposed to - to differentiate between an actual golden dragon and a forged one.

We do know how a 'monetary metal' system works though, and it is not like this. Westeros is clearly bi-metallic, where gold and silver carry their bullion values, but coppers have a notional value.

Monetary metals are worth their weight, not what is stamped on them - this is why coins get clipped, and this we see happening in Westeros. If you cast your mind back to the 1970s or thereabouts, many countries stopped using coins with any appreciable silver content and switched to cupro-nickel. That was because 'scrap' bullion values were beginning to exceed the face value of the coins. This was a problem because the 'monetary metal' system (or 'gold standard' in a loose sense) had been ended. Italy in particular had a problem with 100 lire coins, which were high in silver but couldn't even buy a few sweets. The country was being rapidly denuded of its loose change.....

 

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If gold, silver, etc. as such was the actual currency - and not coinage - they would be in no need of or use official coins issued by the Crown.

There are a few reasons why even monetary metals are made into coins: one is for standardisation, so that you know a given coin represents a given amount of value. Another is for purposes of taxation - 'coin of the realm' is usually required to pay taxes, and in fact this mechanism is often used with fiat currencies to create demand for the currency. There is also 'projection of power' - the Reach coin hidden by 'Rugen', and the Blackfyre dragon Dunk sees are both making a point far beyond 'this is another shape for a lump of gold'. Another reason is of course assaying - coin of the realm is supposed to be of known purity (and this is why there are forgeries - because the true gold exists....)

We see people biting coins quite a lot in ASoIaF, because they are trying to assess the purity. This in itself proves the coins are used in a 'monetary metal' sense, rather than a fiat 'face value' sense. In reality, 'touchstones' would be more useful, although few people would have one - traders and merchants almost certainly.

[Lord Varys]

In any way, one can always imagine a golden dragon being a rather small and gold-less coin insofar as gold coins are concerned. Then the amount of gold in both a golden dragon reading '1' and one reading '10' wouldn't be that much of an issue if we talk about weight issues.

As for metal worth:

Yes, it seems as if the amount of metal that is a coin was important - but we don't know to what degree. Is it that people actually scraped silver and gold and sold it or used it as non-coin currency? Or is it more the fact that bad or incomplete looking coins were at a higher risk of being rejected by the person you tried to conduct business next time?

Overall, the coinage system seems to deal with coppers and silver coinage in the commoner sphere. People buying armor and horses don't even scratch all that much into 'the gold sphere'. On the level of trade in market towns and villages the average folk would most likely make use of non-coinage currency and means to trade goods just as much as of coins - explaining why there are copper clippings and the like in addition to pennies and groats and all that.

One would also keep in mind that official coinage fraud would happen whenever the Crown had financial problems. It is so easy to reduce the content of gold and silver and copper in those coins, changing the standards, causing inflation, etc.

And for tax reasons it would be a major way to consolidate your finances if you have the power to call in debts and taxes by demanding it be paid in the currency you control.

[SeanF]

A Byzantine solidus and French florin each had 3.5 to 4 grams of gold, and were in wide circulation.  The latter would have been worth about 4 English shillings in the mid fourteenth century.

If the Dragon were a similar weight, then Sandor Clegane would have been in possession of 31.5 - 36 kilos of gold (69 - 79 pounds).     That's $2.65m to $3.03 m at current prices.

In modern values, that would imply a national debt of $2bn, $1bn owed to the Lannisters, $300 m to the Faith, $10 m per month for the galleys, $333,000 reward for Jaime, $100,000 ransom for Brienne.  In terms of purchasing power in the story, the amounts would be far more valuable.

If a dragon were worth one fifth of a medieval pound sterling, then the numbers would be £1.2 m, £600,000, £180,000, £6,000 per month, £200, and £60, which are not at all implausible.  Waging war in France for 6 - 9 months could easily cost an English King c. £200,000.  In principle, a ransom should have been about one year's income for a prisoner.

Henry VII left a surplus of £300,000 on his death, but England was a much smaller Kingdom than Westeros. He had an income of about £130,000 by his death, which (on my figures) would be the equivalent of 1.5m and 650,000 dragons respectively.

By way of contrast, the bare minimum thought to be sufficient for a knight in 1400 was c.£20 a year.  Typically, a landed knight would be on c.£50 - 100 a year, a baron on £250-£750 a year, an earl on £750 - £5.000 (John of Gaunt was on £11 - £18,000).  Gaunt was probably the richest subject in medieval England.  His total wealth might have been in the region of £300,000.  

 

 

[SeanF]

On ‎9‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 3:28 AM, Trigger Warning said:

Honestly the value of money is so inconsistent that I wouldn't even bother getting into it. Anguy managed to blow 10,000 dragons on prostitutes and wine. 

If my theory about 1 dragon = 4 shillings were correct than that would be £2,000.  Difficult, but not impossible, especially if he was gambling and paying for hangers-on, too.

[Ran]

And very inflated prices, no doubt.

[SeanF]

54 minutes ago, Ran said:

And very inflated prices, no doubt.

When you think how lottery winners can run through fortunes rapidly, there's nothing strange about blowing this sum.  No doubt every shark and con-artist in the city made a bee-line for Anguy.

And look back at the way that soldiers, sailors and pirates could run through gigantic amounts of prize money in a few weeks.  There were always people who thought in terms of buying an inn, or a farm, or a business with their winnings, but they were few and far between, prior to late Victorian times, which is when the idea of owning your own home became a real aspiration for the masses. 

[SeanF]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

I'm under the impression that the wealth a man like Tobho Mott has acquired definitely greater than the wealth of the average poorer lord - at least in coin (not in land). And not being troubled with the burden of maintaining castles and paying garrisons and the like such merchants could actually make much better use of their movable wealth - the income in coin the poorer lords get might be needed completely or nearly completely to cover the running costs of maintaining a castle and the proper 'way of life' of a lord. Even if you are poor, you cannot afford to look too poor.

If you're a merchant in Kings Landing, turning a profit of say, 500 dragons a year, I don't doubt you've got more ready cash than a petty lord drawing 500 a year in rents, who has to maintain a castle or two, pay retainers, and is expected to live nobly.

But, the ownership of land would give you a degree of power and prestige that you just wouldn't get from owning a successful business. That's why so many successful merchants have invested their profits in land over the centuries.

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, I wanted to bring up the examples of lottery winners losing their fortunes in a couple of weeks, too.

It is just money. You can spend it. I could lose a billion in a year, too, simply by buying ridiculously priced collectibles for the super-rich.

And we should keep in mind that Anguy seems to have virtually lived a Chataya's in those days. I'm pretty sure a room there does not come cheap. Not to mention that a night with any girl in that establishment would come in golden dragons. I mean, we have Rosey's maidenhead costing a single dragon, and she is just the daughter of an innkeep, not a maiden from the most exclusive brothel in Oldtown or King's Landing. The women there would come at very high prices.

[SeanF]

9 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

Another issue from t.s  is the idea faith and lannisters are doing fine without the money owned

Cerseis pov shows the crown is are replaying ironbank and the faith so i have no doubt that they are also repaying lannisters in installments too (esp given tywins stance on borrowers not repaying) ..id say repayments of outstanding debts are a major part of the crowns expenses (til cersei eliminates ib repayments and faith)

Lf seems to have increased the crowns income by replacing useless minor nobles with his own men ,prob merchants etc men who can actualy do basic account and bookkeeping on top of his various schemes of putting the crowns gold to use

 

I expect the Lannisters would be doing very well.  They'd be given places at Court, lesser members of the Clan will be given all kinds of offices, no  doubt Crown estates have been mortgaged to them, from which they're deriving income, and they'll likely be given monopolies and tax exemptions.  

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There are people out there who would deal and trade with gold and other precious metals, of course. They could melt down coins are make another use of the gold or silver therein. But who can afford to do that? Coins are first and foremost currency, not sources for raw metal. And we have no idea whether the amount of metal in a coin actually reflects the current price of that metal that's paid among traders in precious metals (assuming there are many of those - this is not a modern economy).

And until such a time we know how exactly the currency and coinage system of Westeros works we don't know how important the raw weight of the coins and the amount of gold, silver, etc. they contained was. We know that people do weigh coins but this doesn't mean they know the price of gold per ounce, say, it just means they check whether a gold coin actually contains as much gold as it is supposed to - to differentiate between an actual golden dragon and a forged one.

If gold, silver, etc. as such was the actual currency - and not coinage - they would be in no need of or use official coins issued by the Crown.

My understanding is that the problem governments faced was trying to price gold correctly in relation to silver (as you say, silver would be far more widely used as coinage).  Medieval governments  often had quite a lot of gold in the form of plate, bullion, jewellery, which was not much use to them, and which they wished to make use of.  And, gold coins had immense  prestige.  But, if they priced the gold coins too highly, in relation to silver, no one would want them.  Price them too low, and people would just melt them down and swap the bullion for silver coins.  It took England over 100 years to get it right, when Edward III produced nobles (a third of a pound Sterling) and half nobles in gold.

A half-noble would be about four weeks' wage for a skilled labourer in 1400, and thus, quite widely circulated.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If you're a merchant in Kings Landing, turning a profit of say, 500 dragons a year, I don't doubt you've got more ready cash than a petty lord drawing 500 a year in rents, who has to maintain a castle or two, pay retainers, and is expected to live nobly.

But, the ownership of land would give you a degree of power and prestige that you just wouldn't get from owning a successful business. That's why so many successful merchants have invested their profits in land over the centuries.

Sure, Westeros is a society where political power is to an insanely high degree in the hands of the nobility - in part, perhaps, because a certain number of lords actually do trade - the Redwynes, Hightowers, Velaryons, Darklyns, etc. may not just take their share in the trade the commoners do, but actually be invested in this trade and have their own family members do it. I mean, this is effectively confirmed for Corlys Velaryon who actually personally owned the ships he used for his great trading expeditions and who also personally bought and sold the goods that made him rich as hell.

And we don't know how much land rich commoners in KL and Oldtown, etc. actually do own - what we do know is that real power over land and peasants, etc. comes with a lordship. Even landed knights don't have the same powers over their smallfolk (i.e. the peasants renting their land), so having a lordship is clearly an important distinction in the political field. But not in the economic field.

I mean, the Velaryons just control some rock in the Narrow Sea. They have no land at all, yet they were the wealthiest family in Westeros, once, and likely always ranked among the richest.

There are indications that the merchant class is not to be underestimated in the cities, but they have no real political power in the country.

How much land the merchant class can own is unclear at this point, but I daresay the Spicers must be pretty rich to marry into House Westerling, the same for that merchant who married his daughter to Lord Corbray. One also has to think about the Heddle clan - which might have lost prestige and lands after Whitewalls, but which might also have always been just a commoner family which brought forth a few knights.

How bad things are for even pretty great lords with a low income and, possibly, debts, shows the example of Lord Sunderland. It is a considerable problem for him to indulge all his seven sons in their ambitions to become knights. Which, if you compare him to Lord Walder, shows there must be a huge gap there between these two in the monetary department. It also puts things into perspective considering that the Sunderlands control the Three Sisters and should thus have a considerable income via tariffs and taxes on trade done on the island, yet they are still not rich - vice versa, this gives us a picture that the trade done the Frey lands (and the fertility of those lands) must really give you a very high income if you know how to milk those assets (which Walder and his father clearly did).

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, Westeros is a society where political power is to an insanely high degree in the hands of the nobility - in part, perhaps, because a certain number of lords actually do trade - the Redwynes, Hightowers, Velaryons, Darklyns, etc. may not just take their share in the trade the commoners do, but actually be invested in this trade and have their own family members do it. I mean, this is effectively confirmed for Corlys Velaryon who actually personally owned the ships he used for his great trading expeditions and who also personally bought and sold the goods that made him rich as hell.

And we don't know how much land rich commoners in KL and Oldtown, etc. actually do own - what we do know is that real power over land and peasants, etc. comes with a lordship. Even landed knights don't have the same powers over their smallfolk (i.e. the peasants renting their land), so having a lordship is clearly an important distinction in the political field. But not in the economic field.

I mean, the Velaryons just control some rock in the Narrow Sea. They have no land at all, yet they were the wealthiest family in Westeros, once, and likely always ranked among the richest.

There are indications that the merchant class is not to be underestimated in the cities, but they have no real political power in the country.

How much land the merchant class can own is unclear at this point, but I daresay the Spicers must be pretty rich to marry into House Westerling, the same for that merchant who married his daughter to Lord Corbray. One also has to think about the Heddle clan - which might have lost prestige and lands after Whitewalls, but which might also have always been just a commoner family which brought forth a few knights.

How bad things are for even pretty great lords with a low income and, possibly, debts, shows the example of Lord Sunderland. It is a considerable problem for him to indulge all his seven sons in their ambitions to become knights. Which, if you compare him to Lord Walder, shows there must be a huge gap there between these two in the monetary department. It also puts things into perspective considering that the Sunderlands control the Three Sisters and should thus have a considerable income via tariffs and taxes on trade done on the island, yet they are still not rich - vice versa, this gives us a picture that the trade done the Frey lands (and the fertility of those lands) must really give you a very high income if you know how to milk those assets (which Walder and his father clearly did).

We don't get to see much of the merchants, but they are probably quite important as you say.  Cersei actually hosts a lunch for some of them, as Queen Regent.  No doubt, she expected a substantial cash donation from each diner.

Seven knightly sons, all properly equipped and given allowances and servants appropriate to knights, probably would be a substantial expense for a lord.  You could be looking at c. £1,000 a year in medieval English terms.  That suggests that the Freys, who have dozens of knights, are indeed incredibly rich.

Tywin Lannister's disgust at Robb Stark, for marrying the descendant of a spice merchant, is rather comical, when you think that the wealth of the Lannisters depends so heavily on the income from Lannisport and their gold mines.  No doubt, Tywin views that as simply exploiting his estates, rather than sullying his hands with trade. 

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

We don't get to see much of the merchants, but they are probably quite important as you say.  Cersei actually hosts a lunch for some of them, as Queen Regent.  No doubt, she expected a substantial cash donation from each diner.

We also have the Antler Men, or the merchants during the Dance complaining to Aegon II about blockade in the Gullet. These people can make their voices heard. We also see them employ knights rather than being employed by them (in the merchant Brienne meets on the road). One assumes that merchants are the people controlling the most armed forces in any of the great cities immediately after the ruling house of that city. Assuming those do not act as merchants themselves (which the Lannisters of Lannisport, the Hightowers, and the Graftons and Shetts actually might be doing).

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Seven knightly sons, all properly equipped and given allowances and servants appropriate to knights, probably would be a substantial expense for a lord.  You could be looking at c. £1,000 a year in medieval English terms.  That suggests that the Freys, who have dozens of knights, are indeed incredibly rich.

With the Freys it is not just all those knightly Freys but Walder's generosity to all his descendants. The man is really very generous where his brood is concerned. The Royces of Runestone don't play in the same league of generosity there. Walder even tries to foster his younger sons with high lords and the like, and succeeded in getting some of them into interesting positions in the Faith and even beyond the sea. One assumes none of that would have worked if he hadn't placed coin in certain hands.

We don't know if all the Freys get allowances and the like, but one assumes they do. If they did not they could not possibly all continue to live at the Twins.

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Tywin Lannister's disgust at Robb Stark, for marrying the descendant of a spice merchant, is rather comical, when you think that the wealth of the Lannisters depends so heavily on the income from Lannisport and their gold mines.  No doubt, Tywin views that as simply exploiting his estates, rather than sullying his hands with trade. 

The Lannisters of Casterly Rock are snobs.

But the point here is most likely that Tywin himself all milks the cash cow that's Lannisport. He doesn't trade himself. He is disgusted by all that trading stuff the Free Cities do, etc. And the gold mines of the Lannisters are in Casterly Rock itself (and presumably elsewhere), which actually means they sit in a house of gold. All they have to do to get richer is get the gold out of the walls of their living room, basically.

It is also implied that gold is actually the major trading good at Lannisport. You go there to buy Lannister gold - or jewelry made there.

The West is also a very fertile place, etc. - but what made Lannisport a city is Lannister gold, not Lannister grain. If you come from Essos or the Summer Isles you presumably can get food and wine much easier in Dorne, the Arbor, or Oldtown. You don't have to sail to Lannisport - which is close to the end of the world, basically.

[hodorisfaclessman]

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

I expect the Lannisters would be doing very well.  They'd be given places at Court, lesser members of the Clan will be given all kinds of offices, no  doubt Crown estates have been mortgaged to them, from which they're deriving income, and they'll likely be given monopolies and tax exemptions.  

Il bet they had all that from the marriage alone .....and had debt repayments from theeir in law king

[SeanF]

On ‎9‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 11:13 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

On the feudal level I'd say that a lord from the Reach or the West would laugh his ass off if he compared his incomes to those of the average lord in the North or the Iron Islands and perhaps even Dorne, but that would still give us no clue how well off the average lord (in those regions) is compared to the wealthy merchants of the large cities.

 

Northern Lords rule absolutely vast territories with tiny populations.  I imagine they would receive a lot of their income in kind, from tenants, and that coin circulation is relatively limited, outside White Harbour and Barrowtown. Overall, the income of a great Northern lord might be similar to that of a Florent, or Tarly, but only because of the vast territories that the former rules over.

Dorne is interesting.  It's very arid, but raises the kind of crops (citrus, olives, wine, spices) that would fetch a substantial premium in Kings Landing.

[Nittanian]

On 9/2/2018 at 9:58 AM, Ran said:

It's not in the SSM, it's not in any copy of any chat I can find, it's not referenced anywhere on the internet that I can see but in comments on this forum referring to the idea that George admitted it. It bothers me that no one seem to have the quote, much as people who keep insisting that GRRM has said he regrets the catspaw using a Valyrian steel dagger, another notion that has become something of an urban legend despite every person asked about a source can't provide it or ends up referring to someone else who makes the sourceless claim. 

Tangential to this, in a recent map discussion over at /r/gameofthrones a few people insisted that George has stated the Iron Islands are inspired by Ireland. Would you happen to recall George ever mentioning that?