Kings Beyond the Wall. and yes, Bael the infamous bard. (Updated again)

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

That’s if he ever existed.

And if he existed, he might have been nothing like the tale, and never gotten close to Lord Stark’s daughter.

Oh, I'm pretty sure Bael the Bard did exist and that this story actually took place - more or less the way it is described in the songs. It is just too sweet to be just an invention.

And it is also clear that we don't know everything that happened in the last 300 years or 1,000 years - just that we have very good reason to believe that George would have given us more details on Bael and the Starks when he was writing material for TWoIaF. Sure, he postponed writing material on Jaehaerys and Alysanne for FaB but he still wrote material on the North and the history of the kings-beyond-the-Wall. And a section on Bael his 'father-in-law', his lover, and son would have fit in there very well.

[Rufus Snow]

There seems to be much we lack in way of detail:

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Viserys I

On the third day of the third moon of 129 AC, while entertaining Jaehaerys and Jaehaera from his bed with a tale of their great-great-grandsire and his queen battling giants, mammoths, and wildlings beyond the Wall, the king grew tired. He sent his grandchildren away when the tale was done and fell into a sleep from which he never awoke. He had ruled for six-and-twenty years, reigning over the most prosperous era in the history of the Seven Kingdoms but seeding within it the disastrous decline of his house and the death of the last of the dragons.

 

Jaehaerys and Jaehaera were grandchildren of Viserys I, so their 'great-great-grandsire and his queen' were Jaehaerys I and Alysanne. We see nothing in their entry about going north of the Wall... and this collection of 'giants mammoths and wildlings' sounds very similar in nature to Mance's army. Yet another Bael-Mance parallel.

I think there could still be some surprises heading down the Kingsroad in the near future.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

There seems to be much we lack in way of detail:

Jaehaerys and Jaehaera were grandchildren of Viserys I, so their 'great-great-grandsire and his queen' were Jaehaerys I and Alysanne. We see nothing in their entry about going north of the Wall... and this collection of 'giants mammoths and wildlings' sounds very similar in nature to Mance's army. Yet another Bael-Mance parallel.

I think there could still be some surprises heading down the Kingsroad in the near future.

George did tell @Ran that this was just a story when he asked him whether this bedtime story did contain any truth. Granted, while we have no clue about FaB we cannot make a final judgment on that, but it is not very likely that this story ever pointed to Bael.

Even Jaehaerys I and Alysanne had issues with the wildlings back in the day, chances that they had to deal with a king-beyond-the-Wall - be he Bael or some other fellow - is very low considering dragons should have made short work of any such armies.

The Bael story implies Bael was around for a long time - decades, in fact, if his son could be old enough to eventually kill him.

If the Targaryens had had issues with a wildling king for such a long time the dragons would have seen him crushed long before he was a true danger. In Raymun's days they don't have dragons anymore, explaining while the work fell to the Starks.

[The Wondering Wolf]

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

But another source that doesn't mention Bael doesn't actually add to our evidence, does it? If it doesn't mention Raymun Redbeard either, are we then to assume he was pre-Conquest, too?

The Worldbook mentioned the exact date of Raymun's invasion, so nothing unclear with that one. The whole story around Bael could not have happened without the Targs dealing with it. It was their kingdom and an invading King in the North would have called their attention. So claiming it happened during the reign of Jaehaerys I while his Fire and Blood section does not mention Bael at all would be really denying the facts in my opinion.

[Rufus Snow]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Bael story implies Bael was around for a long time - decades, in fact, if his son could be old enough to eventually kill him.

The tale as told has Bael originally as a raider who eventually became a KbtW and attacked 30 years after the supposed conception of the Stark bastard. How much of that time he was KbtW is not expressed, but he could have struck very quickly once he got the ball rolling, or at least pretty shortly before he became known south of the Wall.

The tales also have it that the 'maiden's' father was a Brandon (yeah, yeah, they're nearly all Brandons in that family) and the few years following the Conquest leave us very short of names in the Stark lineage... there's enough gaps in there for a couple of Brandons to be around....

 

[AlaskanSandman]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

George did tell @Ran that this was just a story when he asked him whether this bedtime story did contain any truth. Granted, while we have no clue about FaB we cannot make a final judgment on that, but it is not very likely that this story ever pointed to Bael.

Even Jaehaerys I and Alysanne had issues with the wildlings back in the day, chances that they had to deal with a king-beyond-the-Wall - be he Bael or some other fellow - is very low considering dragons should have made short work of any such armies.

The Bael story implies Bael was around for a long time - decades, in fact, if his son could be old enough to eventually kill him.

If the Targaryens had had issues with a wildling king for such a long time the dragons would have seen him crushed long before he was a true danger. In Raymun's days they don't have dragons anymore, explaining while the work fell to the Starks.

Well there is no guarantee Jaehaerys and Alysanne had problems with the King Beyond the Wall, but it is possible any King Beyond the Wall possibly made his attack at the wrong time, not knowing Jaehaerys was coming North. Take Mance, i dont think he anticipated Stannis Showing up.

I've also mentioned before, that 6 dragons brought to Winterfell and the Wall would likely feed on Mammoths as they are a perfect target and Balerion could swallow a horse whole .

This is an interesting time period to me. And to specific, GRRM said it's just a fanciful tale. Though that's an odd tale to tell. Why would the Targaryens make up stories about fighting at the Wall? What do they know of the Wall? If your right, no King Beyond the Wall has attacked in the Targaryen reign in Westeros. Did the Targaryens really hear about tales of White Walkers, and not go North of the Wall to find out? I can go on, this is just a weird tale for Viserys to tell.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The Worldbook mentioned the exact date of Raymun's invasion, so nothing unclear with that one. The whole story around Bael could not have happened without the Targs dealing with it. It was their kingdom and an invading King in the North would have called their attention. So claiming it happened during the reign of Jaehaerys I while his Fire and Blood section does not mention Bael at all would be really denying the facts in my opinion.

I would definitely have to disagree with you. Jon didnt' send for help from the southern lords to deal with Mance. Why would any other Stark? Did the Targaryens show up for Raymun Red Beard? Nope. So that kind of disproves that

[The Twinslayer]

On 9/2/2018 at 2:36 PM, Rufus Snow said:

According to Ygritte, the LoW was a Brandon - and a LORD, suggesting it was post-Conquest, so you would have thought that records would exist, and somehow despite the lack of records Jon knew this much:

 

Keep in mind that the Starks had more than one title.  Ned calls himself "Eddard of the House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North." He also tells us that before the Conquest, the Lords of Winterfell also called themselves Kings in the North:  "The first Lords of Winterfell had been men hard as the land they ruled.  In the centuries before the Dragonlords came over the sea, they had sworn allegiance to no man, styling themselves the Kings in the North."  So a head of House Stark named Brandon living pre-Conquest would be "Brandon of the House Stark, King in the North and Lord of Winterfell."  

Now, which title would a wildling like Ygritte used to refer that Brandon?  She probably would not call him "King in the North" because she thinks that Winterfell is in the south.  "'Bael the Bard made it,' said Ygritte.  'He was King-Beyond-the-Wall a long time back.  All the free folk know his songs, but might be you don't sing them in the south.'  'Winterfell's not in the south,' Jon objected.  'Yes it is.  Everything below the Wall's south to us.'"  

There is another reason to believe that Bael lived long before the conquest.  It is Dany's vision of a blue rose growing at the Wall.  The blue rose is associated with Stark maidens:  the daughter of Lord (King) Brandon and Lyanna Stark.  Dany's blue rose vision led to the expectation that Sansa or Arya would one day arrive at the Wall, at a point of weakness, and create a sweet smell.  But when the time comes, it isn't Sansa or Arya.  It's Alys Karstark, arriving at a desperate time for the Wall, and whose marriage helps to seal an alliance with the wildlings. 

How is Alys connected with the blue roses?  She is a descendant of Bael the Bard and the Stark maiden.  How is this possible, when the Karstarks broke off from the Stark line long before the Conquest?  Because Bael and  his Stark maiden lived centuries before the Conquest, when Boltons were still flaying Starks and wearing their skins.   

[Rufus Snow]

34 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

There is another reason to believe that Bael lived long before the conquest.  It is Dany's vision of a blue rose growing at the Wall.  The blue rose is associated with Stark maidens:  the daughter of Lord (King) Brandon and Lyanna Stark.  Dany's blue rose vision led to the expectation that Sansa or Arya would one day arrive at the Wall, at a point of weakness, and create a sweet smell.  But when the time comes, it isn't Sansa or Arya.  It's Alys Karstark, arriving at a desperate time for the Wall, and whose marriage helps to seal an alliance with the wildlings. 

How is Alys connected with the blue roses?  She is a descendant of Bael the Bard and the Stark maiden.  How is this possible, when the Karstarks broke off from the Stark line long before the Conquest?  Because Bael and  his Stark maiden lived centuries before the Conquest, when Boltons were still flaying Starks and wearing their skins.   

This is a circular argument, you've basically concluded your starting assumption.

That is certainly not the only possible interpretation of the blue rose of Dany's - in fact you're the only person I've seen associating it with Alys. Most seem to believe it points to Jon. I'm undecided, as I suspect it won't be resolved until/unless Dany reaches the Wall herself

[AlaskanSandman]

 

1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

Keep in mind that the Starks had more than one title.  Ned calls himself "Eddard of the House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North." He also tells us that before the Conquest, the Lords of Winterfell also called themselves Kings in the North:  "The first Lords of Winterfell had been men hard as the land they ruled.  In the centuries before the Dragonlords came over the sea, they had sworn allegiance to no man, styling themselves the Kings in the North."  So a head of House Stark named Brandon living pre-Conquest would be "Brandon of the House Stark, King in the North and Lord of Winterfell."  

Now, which title would a wildling like Ygritte used to refer that Brandon?  She probably would not call him "King in the North" because she thinks that Winterfell is in the south.  "'Bael the Bard made it,' said Ygritte.  'He was King-Beyond-the-Wall a long time back.  All the free folk know his songs, but might be you don't sing them in the south.'  'Winterfell's not in the south,' Jon objected.  'Yes it is.  Everything below the Wall's south to us.'"  

There is another reason to believe that Bael lived long before the conquest.  It is Dany's vision of a blue rose growing at the Wall.  The blue rose is associated with Stark maidens:  the daughter of Lord (King) Brandon and Lyanna Stark.  Dany's blue rose vision led to the expectation that Sansa or Arya would one day arrive at the Wall, at a point of weakness, and create a sweet smell.  But when the time comes, it isn't Sansa or Arya.  It's Alys Karstark, arriving at a desperate time for the Wall, and whose marriage helps to seal an alliance with the wildlings. 

How is Alys connected with the blue roses?  She is a descendant of Bael the Bard and the Stark maiden.  How is this possible, when the Karstarks broke off from the Stark line long before the Conquest?  Because Bael and  his Stark maiden lived centuries before the Conquest, when Boltons were still flaying Starks and wearing their skins.   

They were not just the Kings of the North, they were the Kings of Winter.

Ygritte would not know the difference between a Lord or a King. Thats just silly. She would simply repeat what she was told, that the Stark was a lord. Cause thats how the story was recorded in song. 

Considering Jon knows of Bael before being told by Ygritte that he stole a Lord Starks daughter, part of the story must be true. 
 

Also, for any one doubting when Bael happened, Jon tells us for sure, it wasn't that long ago.

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

Jon had never heard this tale before. "Which Brandon was this supposed to be? Brandon the Builder lived in the Age of Heroes, thousands of years before Bael. There was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright, but—"

"This was Brandon the Daughterless," Ygritte said sharply. "Would you hear the tale, or no?"

He scowled. "Go on."

 

 

Come at me bro lol jk 

 

Edit- Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner are shortly before Aegon's Conquest as evident by his order in the crypts. So Bael is sometime close to Aegon Targaryen.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I'm pretty sure Bael the Bard did exist and that this story actually took place - more or less the way it is described in the songs. It is just too sweet to be just an invention.

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

Jon had never heard this tale before. "Which Brandon was this supposed to be? Brandon the Builder lived in the Age of Heroes, thousands of years before Bael. There was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright, but—"

"This was Brandon the Daughterless," Ygritte said sharply. "Would you hear the tale, or no?"

He scowled. "Go on."

 

Just so you see it too hahah Confirmed by Jon, who mentions Bael to Qhorin before meeting Ygritte.

[AlaskanSandman]

Jon is having a problem listing another Brandon for a reason, the only other Brandon was a Lord, but had to have come after Bael for Jon to not name him. 

Boom.

Lord Brandon son of Cregan Stark who was during the Dance of Dragons. So between Brandon the Burner and Lord Brandon, existed Bael the Infamous Bard.

[Rufus Snow]

Brandons I have in my lists include:

 

Brandon the Builder

Brandon the Breaker - contemporaneous with Joramun and 'Nights King'

Brandon Ice Eyes, great grandson of Edrick who built the outher walls, so looong ago

Brandon the Bad (who I can't pin down, except he was a King, probably pre-Andal invasion)

Brandon the Shipwright

Brandon the Burner

Then a Lord Brandon somewhere after the Dance of the Dragons and before Raymun Redbeard

 

Brandon the Shipwright had a son, so it wasn't him. Brandon the Burner? He seems to be the only possible pre-Conquest Brandon that we know of, and he's spoken of enough that someone would have mentioned him also defeating a KbtW.

Of course it could be an un-specified Brandon either before or after Aegon. There is really only a small gap where that is possible after the Conquest. King/Lord Torrhen Who Knelt had four sons. None have been named yet. The next Stark Lord we know is Ellard, who attended the 101AC Great Council and had dealings with Jaehaeris. He would be my favourite as the 'bastard' should his grandfather have been Torrhen.... but time will tell.

[AlaskanSandman]

9 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Brandons I have in my lists include:

 

Brandon the Builder

Brandon the Breaker - contemporaneous with Joramun and 'Nights King'

Brandon Ice Eyes, great grandson of Edrick who built the outher walls, so looong ago

Brandon the Bad (who I can't pin down, except he was a King, probably pre-Andal invasion)

Brandon the Shipwright

Brandon the Burner

Then a Lord Brandon somewhere after the Dance of the Dragons and before Raymun Redbeard

 

Brandon the Shipwright had a son, so it wasn't him. Brandon the Burner? He seems to be the only possible pre-Conquest Brandon that we know of, and he's spoken of enough that someone would have mentioned him also defeating a KbtW.

Of course it could be an un-specified Brandon either before or after Aegon. There is really only a small gap where that is possible after the Conquest. King/Lord Torrhen Who Knelt had four sons. None have been named yet. The next Stark Lord we know is Ellard, who attended the 101AC Great Council and had dealings with Jaehaeris. He would be my favourite as the 'bastard' should his grandfather have been Torrhen.... but time will tell.

Check OP at bottom. Brandon the Burner is right before Aegon took Westeros. Yet Jon doesn't think its' Brandon the Burner, yet he's having a problem cause the only known Brandon after the Burner (unless there was one during the reign of Jaehaerys) is Cregan Starks son, Lord Brandon. But this must be too late and after Bael as Jon doesn't list him. Jon list Brandon Burner cause he's kind of close, but still not the one, and he's close to Aegon. 

There is only one possible place he falls imo.

[Rufus Snow]

23 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There is only one possible place he falls imo.

OK, time to slap it on the table; unless you're saying between Torrhen and Ellard, I'm lost

... unless you're instead suggesting that the 'Stark maid' actually wasn't, and he snuck into Alysanne's room during her visit?

[AlaskanSandman]

13 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

OK, time to slap it on the table; unless you're saying between Torrhen and Ellard, I'm lost

... unless you're instead suggesting that the 'Stark maid' actually wasn't, and he snuck into Alysanne's room during her visit?

Thats exactly what im saying lol There is a reason that is the only part of the Stark Tree we haven't been given.

But now that you mention it. I do suspect Bael of having met Alysanne also. 

Abel/Bael (Mance) sings an unknown sad song at Winterfell and i bet you its Alsyanne. He also sings Two Hearts that Beat as One and is accompanied by two women. This is also how the Song of Ice and Fire is sang.  This is also how Aegon came to us. And many of the old legends suggest as much too. Though, the partners dont all have to get along imo

Edit, sorry- This is where Val descends from imo

[AlaskanSandman]

17 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

OK, time to slap it on the table; unless you're saying between Torrhen and Ellard, I'm lost

... unless you're instead suggesting that the 'Stark maid' actually wasn't, and he snuck into Alysanne's room during her visit?

Remember how wildling custom degree's you go get your wife lol consider Bael, eye balling Alysanne, who just happens to be visiting the same village as Bael on his journey home. Takes her, sleeps with her, gets her with child. "Crowning" is a birthing term.

After her visit to QueensCrown, despite the village honoring her by painting the Tower she had her kid in, Alysanne gives their village over to the Watch as part of the New Gift. Na, she's not trying to hide anything. 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 5:35 AM, Rufus Snow said:

...even English kings were so into the story that one of the Edwards actually had a Round Table made.

A small point (and I'd have to look it up to be positive), but wasn't that the Black Prince, who would have been Edward IV and didn't live to be king?

[Rufus Snow]

7 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

A small point (and I'd have to look it up to be positive), but wasn't that the Black Prince, who would have been Edward IV and didn't live to be king?

Nah, Edward I, circa 1275, though it can't be reliably tied to him. However, other later kings liked playing with it too

[Three-Fingered Pete]

51 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Nah, Edward I, circa 1275, though it can't be reliably tied to him.

OK, now I will have to do some reading because I have never heard that one before.