on jaime lannister not telling people about the wildfire

[goldenlion]

https://makerkenzie.tumblr.com/post/165517402715/why-do-so-many-prominent-asoiaf-commentators-think/embed

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anonymous  asked:

Why do so many prominent ASOIAF commentators think Jaime committed a great sin in not running around telling everyone of Aerys' wildfire plot? I see it all the time. He was a traumatised teenage hostage- surely it's equally on the likes of Barristan (especially him) and Jon and Robert that nobody thought to take this kid aside and ask 'hey, so why exactly did you break this most sacred vow?' I think in that light Jaime's totally justified in feeling that no one would believe him.

 

Why, yes, Anon, I agree that Jaime was absolutely justified in feeling that no one would believe him.

To take Jaime’s transition-era mindset even deeper, I think he was concerned that the wildfire caches would be used for destructive ends if they were made public knowledge. This kid’s father is the guy who literally annihilated two entire noble families in response to their defiance of House Lannister. It’s not just a question of what Tywin would have done; this is Jaime’s primary model of a powerful man. He probably thought it was to be expected that a new king, with access to tons of explosives, would use those explosives to do something terrifying. Blow up Dragonstone to get rid of the last Targaryens, for example? Jaime didn’t want that to happen. I think he killed the pyromancers associated with the wildfire plot because he needed to restrict the knowledge of the wildfire caches to someone who could be trusted to use that knowledge appropriately. In order to divulge the wildfire plot, Jaime needed someone who a) was in a position of sufficient power to either ensure the wildfire was properly disposed of or keep it in the dark, b) would listen to him and believe him long enough to investigate and see the wildfire caches up close, and c) would want to find the wildfire, but not use it. (Sort of like Harry Potter with the Sorceror’s Stone: find it, but not use it.) 

I have a little headcanon that Jaime was really looking forward to telling Ned all about why he killed the king, and he thought Ned would be just the right guy to either keep the wildfire caches secret or persuade Robert to get rid of it all without blowing anything up. But then Jaime saw how Ned responded to seeing him perched on the throne, and, well, that idea was a non-starter. Jon Arryn might have been a good candidate if he’d ever asked Jaime for his side of the story, but he didn’t. 

As to why so many of the Smart People of ASOIAF act like Jaime kept quiet because he’s just the type of asshole who likes being treated like a bad guy? Ehhhh…what I see is a tendency to impose 33-year-old Jaime’s “I seldom fling children from towers to improve their health” attitude on 17-year-old Jaime’s actions. Which doesn’t add up, but why does this idea have traction? When we accept that he was unfairly vilified as a kid, then we start to see his antisocial behavior in adulthood in terms of his response to trauma. It could be argued that his response to trauma doesn’t justify impregnating his sister, and he could have and should have dealt with his injuries differently, but what I see happening is a refusal to consider that his injuries were not self-inflicted. It’s an insistence that his shit-for-honor reputation is yet another offense that Jaime perpetrated on the realm, rather than something that was done to him. So how did this view of Jaime gain traction? 

Well…I think it’s a general discomfort with seeing the guy who attempted murder on Stark kids in terms of victimization. Additionally, I see a lot of discussion of Jaime presupposing access to power that he didn’t (and still doesn’t) have. I think it’s tempting to see him as having always been that guy who seldom flings children from towers to improve their health, because when we see someone doing terrible things, we want to get angry at him. We don’t want to hear about how low he ranks in the power structure, and what kind of consequences he’d face for insubordination. We don’t want to think his ripe jackass behavior in adulthood is informed by war-crimes-level trauma compounded by unfair vilification before his brain was fully developed. Basically, I think the issue is that we don’t like to think of how big the problem really is; if it’s simply a matter of Jaime being awful because that’s how an antisocial narcissist keeps himself entertained, then the problem is right where we can see it, and it’s not too big to contain and dismantle. 

 

 

 

when jaime isnt a narcissist

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

5 hours ago, goldenlion said:

https://makerkenzie.tumblr.com/post/165517402715/why-do-so-many-prominent-asoiaf-commentators-think/embed

 

Which Jaime would you believe ? The Jaime who wanted to go to the Trident with Rhaegar or the Jaime who was screwing his sister, throwing a young child from a tower and cuckolding his king ?

[JaneSnow]

Nicely done analysis. Is that yours or someone else's?

[M.Alhazred]

Jaime acted for the good of the realm when he took them out.Finding out about the wildfire wouldn't matter to Ned.As for Jon Arrwyn who knows if he would have believed him.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

Can you imagine what would have happened if he hadn't chucked Bran out the window? Robert would have had his whole family killed I expect. His choice was one death or many, including his own. Seems he has to make this choice more often than most,

[Ylath's Snout]

23 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Can you imagine what would have happened if he hadn't chucked Bran out the window? Robert would have had his whole family killed I expect. His choice was one death or many, including his own. Seems he has to make this choice more often than most,

The big difference is that he chose to have sex with his married sister. That time he created the danger to himself and his children as opposed reacting to Aerys madness.

That said maybe he had a easier time rationalizing what he did to Brann thanks to his experience with Aerys.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

20 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

The big difference is that he chose to have sex with his married sister. That time he created the danger to himself and his children as opposed reacting to Aerys madness.

That said maybe he had a easier time rationalizing what he did to Brann thanks to his experience with Aerys.

Yeah you have a fair point.

[The Sleeper]

He could have just gotten over himself and told someone about the hazard that could and still can annihilate a city of half a million people. A city he spent most of his life in by the way.

The funny thing is that there are good odds King's Landing will burn. Martin wouldn't leave something like this just lying about. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

If Jaime loves Cersei and his family so much that he'd throw a child out of tower to save them from Robert's wrath then why wouldn't he tell everyone about the wildfire that surrounds King's Landing, the very place most of that family is currently living?

[Lord Lannister]

Jaime is a romantic at his core despite everything. He wanted to be a heroic knight, and that turned to poison during his service to Aerys. His feelings towards Cersei are obviously misplaced, but in his belief in his notions of true love, he's put up with an awful lot from her and even that is obviously turning to poison. Most of the more villainous things he's done can be traced back to Cersei in some form. As he said, "the things we do for love." As for his jaded cynicism, his brother's words come to mind. He doesn't let it hurt him, instead he wears it like armor.

[DanyDayne]

I think Jaime understood that it was his word against a dead king. A king he happened to kill. Even if he told someone and they found the wildfire it still wouldn't exonerate him because he could have overheard a conversation about the wildfire as one of the Kingsguard. There are different ways he could have heard about it and it would seem convenient for him to say that's why he killed Aerys since Aerys wasn't there to defend himself. So I guess he just didn't care in the end. 

[Tagganaro]

Good analysis.  I think Jaime keeps his mouth shut because he's not really changing many people's minds- he sees how people like Ned immediately react to him and decides that they have already made up their minds about him so it's not even worth telling his side because they wouldn't believe him.  Furthermore, I think Jaime probably thinks there are a number of people who would hear his side of the story and believe him, but still condemn him for breaking an oath anyway.

In either case, I don't see many people hearing Jaime's side of the story and siding with him- it takes a special person like Brienne who Jaime trusts and respects for Jaime to be willing to open up to like that.

[Ylath's Snout]

So I really disagree with the idea that nobody would believe Jaime if he told them about Aerys Wildfire plan.

He would be able to show the dang stockpiles.

Maybe Ned would be pig headed enough to insist on calling him a oathbreaker but Robert, Jon Arryn and all of House Lannister would be all over that like a Targ on insest. Evidence of Aerys planning something like that would do wonders for propping up Robert rule and discrediting the remaining Targs.

[Angel Eyes]

15 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

He could have just gotten over himself and told someone about the hazard that could and still can annihilate a city of half a million people. A city he spent most of his life in by the way.

The funny thing is that there are good odds King's Landing will burn. Martin wouldn't leave something like this just lying about. 

Well, all you can do is leave it lying around (except for a cache moved by Tyrion from under the Great Sept in ACOK). Wildfire is extremely volatile, dangerous to transport, and gets more dangerous over time; even sunlight can set it alight.

[The Sleeper]

5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, all you can do is leave it lying around (except for a cache moved by Tyrion from under the Great Sept in ACOK). Wildfire is extremely volatile, dangerous to transport, and gets more dangerous over time; even sunlight can set it alight.

Nope. Tyrion managed to use the caches he found and use them on the Blackwater. They might be more dangerous but still manageable. Even if that were the case they could still have been buried where they lay. Ignoring the issue is not permissible in any shape or form. 

And they would not have been as dangerous twenty years ago.

Anyone who dies from these caches is on Jamie's head. If he had told people and they did nothing, then it would be on them. He hasn't. He might have told some random servant to inform Arryn, or Ned or Robert, if he was so loath to interrupt his sulk. 

There are no excuses for something with a potential for destruction of such magnitude. 

[Ylath's Snout]

7 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Wildfire is extremely volatile, dangerous to transport, and gets more dangerous over time; even sunlight can set it alight.

So how is not telling anyone about it right away the right move then?

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

If he had told people and they did nothing, then it would be on them. He hasn't. He might have told some random servant to inform Arryn, or Ned or Robert, if he was so loath to interrupt his sulk. 

Exactly if the WIldefire stockpile are some large and dangerous that removing them all is impossible then tell people so they can relocate somewhere safe.

[rotting sea cow]

On 9/5/2018 at 11:16 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

If Jaime loves Cersei and his family so much that he'd throw a child out of tower to save them from Robert's wrath then why wouldn't he tell everyone about the wildfire that surrounds King's Landing, the very place most of that family is currently living?

Does Jaime love Cersei? Or does he love the reflection in a mirror? Also, Cersei children are not his family. He resents that. I don't think he threw Bran out of love for Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella. Just for "love" for Cersei.

Finally, as per Jaime dreams, he only subconsciously knows about the danger. It hasn't yet surfaced to say, oh, we are sitting in an atom bomb. 

[Angel Eyes]

38 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Does Jaime love Cersei? Or does he love the reflection in a mirror? Also, Cersei children are not his family. He resents that. I don't think he threw Bran out of love for Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella. Just for "love" for Cersei.

Finally, as per Jaime dreams, he only subconsciously knows about the danger. It hasn't yet surfaced to say, oh, we are sitting in an atom bomb. 

The reverse is certainly true for Cersei. She loves the fact that he's a reflection of her and when he lost his hand, he fell out of favor because they didn't look alike anymore.

[The Sleeper]

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Finally, as per Jaime dreams, he only subconsciously knows about the danger. It hasn't yet surfaced to say, oh, we are sitting in an atom bomb. 

That is an explanation I can live with because ignoring something like this goes beyond all reason, particularly considering that he lives in King's Landing. He probably never thought it through, being preoccupied with how people think of him until he put it out of his mind. 

I think we're due an "oh, shit" moment. If he lives that long. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

14 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Does Jaime love Cersei?

He certainly claims to love Cersei at the start of the series. He also claims to love Tyrion who was at Winterfell at the time and could have been in danger of Robert's wrath as well. 

14 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Cersei children are not his family. He resents that.

He may not feel like a father to Myrcella and Tommen but I highly doubt he'd want to see them get executed in Winterfell or burned alive in King's Landing. I don't think he resents them either, just doesn't care for them as much as a uncle or father should. Plus he is a KG it's his job to protect the royal children.

14 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Finally, as per Jaime dreams, he only subconsciously knows about the danger. It hasn't yet surfaced to say, oh, we are sitting in an atom bomb. 

Oh not only has it already surfaced it's been spoken out loud to Brienne in their bathhouse chat.

He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place catches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.-Jaime V - A Storm of Swords

He then goes on to tell Brienne about the rest of the sack of King's Landing, seeming to remember it perfectly. Even telling her how he killed Aerys' other pyromancers days after the sack to make sure they didn't ignite the wildfire, but still doesn't tell anyone about the wildfire itself.

All this points to Jaime being very conscious of the wildfire and how dangerous it is. He even remembers where all the wildfire was placed.