Ashara, post Harrenhal possibilities

[Alexis-something-Rose]

15 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Interestingly, since we know that Brandon faced and fell to Rhaegar during the Harrenhal Tourney, likely after the evening of the feast marking the opening of the tourney and the dancing that occurred there, Brandon would have presumably had to ransom his horse and armor from Rhaegar. Assuming Brandon didn't just kiss his horse and armor goodbye, or send someone else to ransom  it in his place, I would love to know what occurred during that conversation.

I think Rhaegar used his victory in the joust as a cover. He beat Brandon and he beat Yohn Royce. Brandon the son of the Warden of the North. Yohn Royce, the second most powerful man in the Vale. He could easily have used those two to pass his messages. 

Let's look at the names of two of Brandon's companions who died in King's Landing. A Royce and an Arryn.

Ashara could have easily been used as a go in between during the opening feast and pass messages along. It's possible that Rhaegar decided to carry on with his plans by doing things differently with his father's presence. 

I also wouldn't omit Brandon's upcoming wedding as an opportunity for him to meet the lords. And Ashara could have served as a go in-between once again.

[SFDanny]

25 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Interestingly, since we know that Brandon faced and fell to Rhaegar during the Harrenhal Tourney, likely after the evening of the feast marking the opening of the tourney and the dancing that occurred there, Brandon would have presumably had to ransom his horse and armor from Rhaegar. Assuming Brandon didn't just kiss his horse and armor goodbye, or send someone else to ransom  it in his place, I would love to know what occurred during that conversation.

Exactly! It's visions of such conversations that wake me up in the middle of the night! 

Of course, I need a better life. So you might not relate, but still ...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

40 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Interestingly, since we know that Brandon faced and fell to Rhaegar during the Harrenhal Tourney, likely after the evening of the feast marking the opening of the tourney and the dancing that occurred there, Brandon would have presumably had to ransom his horse and armor from Rhaegar. Assuming Brandon didn't just kiss his horse and armor goodbye, or send someone else to ransom  it in his place, I would love to know what occurred during that conversation.

Is that the rule for each tourney? Or is that one of the rules the organizer can decide himself?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

12 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Is that the rule for each tourney? Or is that one of the rules the organizer can decide himself?

The KotLT waited around to ransom the mounts of the people they challenged.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The KotLT waited around to ransom the mounts of the people they challenged.

Ah yes, that's right! Thanks!  

[The Map Guy]

6 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Interestingly, since we know that Brandon faced and fell to Rhaegar during the Harrenhal Tourney, likely after the evening of the feast marking the opening of the tourney and the dancing that occurred there, Brandon would have presumably had to ransom his horse and armor from Rhaegar. Assuming Brandon didn't just kiss his horse and armor goodbye, or send someone else to ransom  it in his place, I would love to know what occurred during that conversation.

I don't know how that matters to anything. A few months later, Brandon went to King's Landing after Lyanna's abduction, and demanded Rhaegar to come out and die.

7 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Yes, I've heard of it, and debated it in the past. Not a big supporter of the idea Ashara is let in the black cells to have kinky dungeon sex and make little Brandons.

If Ashara was ONLY introduced as one of Elia's lady-in-waiting, yes I would agree with you that Ashara would not be let in the dungeons. BUT Ashara's brother happens to be a kingsguard, and they have access to the dungeons. And a reminder, Brandon was in the dungeons for weeks, waiting for his father, Rickard Stark, to come to King's Landing. 

 

7 hours ago, SFDanny said:

My answer to this is it is possible you are only seeing the surface of a much more complex character. Far from only being a damsel in distress, Ashara, if my theory is correct, may be getting ready for her own much delayed rampage against her enemies. She is only doing so without the benefit of dragons. Or at least the fire-breathing kind.

The surface mystery is still unsolved yet, who is father of Ashara's stillborn baby? Or does this part don't matter? Why do we have to go into a second mystery that has no textual support? In your theory, Ashara is guilty by association and guilty of PROBABLY being at the right place and right time. And remind me again, who are her enemies when she comes back for vengeance? I'm genuinely confused. Robert Barthaeon? Aerys? Aerys is dead, and Rhaegar died fighting for House Targaryen.

There is a mystery to Ashara, no doubt about it. She is only given a dozen (not dozenS) details, and every detail should matter and not disregarded. Could there be more to Ashara besides these dozen details? Absolutely, but GRRM hasn't written about them yet, at least not in these books. So far, I only see the damsel in distress.

I'm not trying to be harsh or anything. We are given limited details about Ashara, and if a presented theory relied on some these limited detailed to be fake or doesn't matter, its hard to take the theory seriously.

 

9 hours ago, Seams said:

I can see that you are attached to your Ashara + Brandon theory, and I have no interest in bursting your bubble. I think it's very likely that Brandon has one or more natural children growing up around Westeros and that GRRM wants us to put him on our list of suspects in any number of circumstances. My personal pet theory is that Brandon Stark is the father of the boy who grows up thinking he is Ramsay Snow / Bolton. But that is a discussion for another thread.

It's not just the few details given about Ashara, it's also Brandon's details too. Brandon's promiscuity is a key factor in Ashara's mystery baby daddy...which I assume would also be a factor in your Brandon/Ramsey theory.

9 hours ago, Seams said:

You theorize that Ashara is sad about a dead lover because it fits your Brandon theory, but we don't know that this was an actual factor in her world view. (Or correct me if you have a passage from the text that confirms this.)

Ashara jumped from a tower into the sea over a "broken heart" according to Ned Dayne in some Arya ASOS chapter. Its not just a broken heart over a dead lover, but a dead daughter and dead brother....don't forget Rhaegar and Elia are dead too. 

 

In regards to the Brienne parallel....you are trying to solve the identity of Ashara's baby daddy by comparing it to Brienne's parallel? And let me get the straight, you are saying he is Rhaegar? I do believe if Rhaegar had find a woman to fulfill his prophecy, Ashara should of been picked ahead of Lyanna...but more for logistical and non-rebellion-ish reasons. But this approach of solving the mystery...I just don't see it. Maybe you can get away with it in the fantasy storytelling world, but definitely not in real life.

Perhaps GRRM intended to have Ashara's story parallel Brienne's, but it would require a lot of explaining and jumping. Ashara's stillborn = Brienne's dead baby siblings? Ashara's dead brother killed in action = Brienne's brother drowning? Ashara's dead lover = maybe Jaime dying in the future? I don't know.

But I feel that there are better Ashara parallels (assuming Brandon is the baby daddy):

Ashara, a beautiful woman with violet eyes, has a stillborn daughter. Her brother Arthur was killed in combat. Her love, Brandon, a tall strong dark-haired "hot-blooded" warrior was also killed before they had a chance to start a family.

Dany, a beautiful woman with violet eyes, has a stillborn son. Her brother Rhaegar was killed in combat. Her love, Khal Drogo, a tall strong dark-haired "hot-blooded" warrior was also killed before they had a chance to start a family.

 

Here is another good parallel if Brandon was Ashara's baby daddy:

Brandon Stark was fond of Catelyn, but never truly loved her. At the Tourney of Harrenhal, he meets the beautiful Ashara Dayne and starts an affair. Their love was forbidden and it produced a forbidden pregnancy. Eventually Brandon and Ashara died separately during the conflicts of Robert's Rebellion. Ashara died off a tower. Also, Ashara's brother Arthur, was killed by a Stark kin of Brandon during the conflicts. Ned Stark is tasked in keeping this forbidden relationship a secret.

Rhaegar Targaryen was fond of Elia, but never truly loved her. At the Tourney of Harrenhal, he meets the beautiful Lyanna Stark and starts an affair. Their love was forbidden and it produced a forbidden pregnancy. Eventually Rhaegar and Lyanna died separately during the conflicts of Robert's Rebellion. Lyanna died in a tower. Also, Lyanna's brother Brandon, was killed by a Targaryen kin of Rhaegar during the conflicts. Ned Stark is tasked in keeping this forbidden relationship a secret.

...poor janitor Ned.

[Sly Wren]

@SFDanny--fabulous topic! And I absolutely agree that Ashara is likely to be alive.

One question always frustrates me, though, about the Lemore theories--the eyes. Everyone seems to have noted Ashara's eyes. 

Characters in the novels can easily dye their hair--but no one notices Lemore's eyes--this seems odd if she's Ashara.

That said--I do think there's a mystery to be solved about Lemore. And in a lot of other ways, Ashara could really fit.

21 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

The surface mystery is still unsolved yet, who is father of Ashara's stillborn baby? Or does this part don't matter? Why do we have to go into a second mystery that has no textual support? In your theory, Ashara is guilty by association and guilty of PROBABLY being at the right place and right time. And remind me again, who are her enemies when she comes back for vengeance? I'm genuinely confused. Robert Barthaeon? Aerys? Aerys is dead, and Rhaegar died fighting for House Targaryen.

There is a mystery to Ashara, no doubt about it. She is only given a dozen (not dozenS) details, and every detail should matter and not disregarded. Could there be more to Ashara besides these dozen details? Absolutely, but GRRM hasn't written about them yet, at least not in these books. So far, I only see the damsel in distress.

On the bolded--I actually think there's an excellent chance we have been given more info on Ashara--via Lysa.

This is largely based on observations by @Lady Dyanna--but Lysa and Ashara have some key parallels/echoes.

Both are the only two women in the books believed to have died falling from white stone towers--and Lysa "falls" after a fight with Baelish, the father of her lost baby, after she helped him with a plot to disrupt the Westerosi power structure. And helped him with a plot to steal a Stark maid. 

Both resided in the only standing castles in the novels with white towers--and Lysa's has a garden of blue flowers--blue flowers (roses or otherwise) are very rarely mentioned in the novels.

The scene of Lysa's death--it really does seem like we are being given info on Ashara's death--a death mentioned in all of the books but one so far. 

Which makes me think Ashara was a plotter--as others have noted her dancing at Harrenhal. And she may have loved the Bael figure (Rhaegar)--after all: 

he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince. Feast, Cat of the Canals.

Simply put--I think there's a chance Martin has given us more clues about Ashara than just the overt details.

Maybe.

[SFDanny]

12 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Regarding Varys fanning Aerys's paranoia, if Yandel tells it true (and thanks to Jaime we have reason to believe he does), Rhaegar was actually plotting against the reign of his father (although we do not know what exactly Rhaegar had in mind). And while Rhaegar probably believed his plan were what was best, by informing Aerys that there was a plot going to happen at Harrenhal if he were to stay away, Varys was demonstrating loyalty to his king (whether true or faked).

Yes. While I have no problem with the idea Varys would change his loyalties if it suits him, I do think it is important to know just how powerful his relationship to Aerys has made him. By feeding the king's paranoia, he keeps Aerys tied to him for his worldview. It's not just the "lickspittle lords" of the council who would benefit from Aerys replacing Rhaegar as his heir with Viserys. It is also Varys. Rhaegar's move to deal with the king's madness is in direct opposition to all of these men's interests and power. In the chaos of Aerys's madness these men grow richer and more powerful. So, when we view the history of Rhaegar's and Varys's relationship, this has to be the story that dominates how they view each other. Could Varys approach Rhaegar and/or Elia with an olive branch and a proposition to help them? Including a proposition to help get Aegon out of King's Landing? Again, absolutely yes. But for the two of them to ever trust him? I think no, never. Of course in extreme situations narrowed choices can force unlikely allies.

12 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Elia's marriage to Rhaegar is one of the things I hope we will learn more about in the next two novels. Rhaegar did not love her, but was "fond" of her, according to Barristan. Their marriage was "complicated", according to GRRM. And indeed, we have seen Rhaegar confide in his wife concerning a prophecy and how it connects to their newborn son. So how much did Elia know, and how much did she agree with? If she did indeed know what Rhaegar was doing, but if she agreed with his plans, how come Doran - out of anger of Rhaegar's treatment of Elia - refused to send Dornish forces until Aerys began to threaten the lives of Elia and her children? I would expect Elia to have explained Doran what he needed to know in order to agree to send forces to KL, if indeed she had been in the know of it all. And perhaps she tried and we will learn that Doran refused to listen/remained angry at Rhaegar/did not believe her. Perhaps. But until we have something pointing in the direction of that having happened, I'm going to assume that it didn't.

And I agree, Rhaegar would certainly have had reason to care for his children.

All of which reinforces Martin's "complicated" description. I expect we will find out more, or at least I certainly hope so. Here, let me continue a theme I see in Martin's writing. Complicated and powerful women. Not that I have any claim of ownership to that obvious observation, but I like to keep reminding myself of it when I try to understand this story. If I don't my daughter and her mother will kick my ass, but that is another story. Anyway, I think Elia fits this pattern, not just in her relationship to Rhaegar, but also to her brothers. Which is a long way of saying what pisses off the Martell brothers may well not be what Elia sees as important. So, even assuming Elia can communicate with her brothers, they may not agree with each other on what to do. I hope we find out find out what Elia knew, and who she agreed with, if anyone, before this series ends. I find these relationships fascinating and don't want Elia to be left as a hopeless woman with no power or plans of her own. My bias.

What that means to my theory in my opening post is that I don't want to assume that even if it is Elia who makes the plans to smuggle Aegon out, it doesn't necessarily follow that she would want Aegon to go to Sunspear. She may have hope of controlling Aegon's fate by having him the hands of people who follow her orders, not her brothers.

Bleeding over into other territory, let me restate from previous discussions that I don't think Rhaegar taking Lyanna was as a result of a plan. Which means I doubt Rhaegar and Elia discussed the action before it happens. For a variety of reasons, I think the "kidnapping" was more of a rescue following a chance meeting than anything else, but that too is another topic.

12 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

If Ned had taken ship at Starfall, back to his troops at Storm's End (if that is indeed where he left them behind), the sailors on the ship could have spread the gossip easily. We see in the novels how much they spread stories. Ned's soldiers eventually brought the story north, where it was spread further.

Additionally, it would explain how the story spread throughout the rest of Westeros (far enough for Cersei to hear about it). Storm's End still had its own garrison, and who knows who from the Reach was still present.

That said, we also learn that the smallfolk love to gossip about their lords. When it comes down to it, everyone could have spread the news  But the people who possibly brought Ned from Starfall to Storm's End or King's Landing are a good possibility.

Let me say that it makes sense to me that Ned leaves his troops at Storm's End, not only because that is the last place we know he and his troops are in the same place, but also because when he leaves them these troops still have a job to do. The garrison at Storm's End is in terrible shape and it is up to these troops to safeguard Storm's End and the Stormlands against the unlikely event the Tyrell/Redwyne troops decide to turn around and attack after Ned's men leave. I think they need to provide that barrier against the peace going sour and war starting over again. I envision the northern army living off the combination of surrendered provisions from the surrendering army and access to Storm Lords showing their loyalties to Robert and Stannis. When Ned comes back, he makes the decision when and where they march. Stannis himself is almost certainly in King's Landing busy building a new fleet to attack Dragonstone. Martin has said we will know more about Ned's journey north, so I expect we will find out if I'm wrong.

I do believe that the stories told by different people are clues to when, where, and how they heard them. Noting that if a woman named Wylla, who claimed she was the mother of Ned's child is NOT part of any soldiers gossip tells us it is highly unlikely that Wylla and Jon were known to anyone before Ned leaves his troops at Storm's End. That the people of Starfall think Wylla is Jon's mother tells us that Jon is first known publicly when either she, or she and Ned, arrive in that city. For the purposes of this thread, it is interesting that Ashara isn't thought of as a candidate to be Jon's mother in Starfall. If she is, it likely means she wasn't pregnant and deliver in Starfall when Jon was born. Then the people would know she was Jon's mother. Was she someplace else during this time?

If Rhaegar and Elia had send Ashara away with Aegon to ensure Aegon's safety, she could have gone to other places than a tower where Rhaegar's third child was about to be born. Rhaegar's own seat comes to mind (neither Rhaella nor Viserys were there already, if Rhaegar had send Ashara on her way before his death at the Trident). Safely away from Aerys, Safely away from Doran and Oberyn (if Oberyn was even in Westeros at the time). Safely away from the rebels. And safely at Rhaegar's own seat.

Just a possibility

Hope you have a good night of sleep! (actually, several since your post, I hadn't been able to respond earlier). 

It is indeed a possibility. I'm not sure Dragonstone is a safe place depending on the time we are talking about. After the sack, and Rhaella is in charge, I'm sure she would welcome Ashara and her grandson. Before she arrives and Aerys is still king I'm not so sure. When Rhaegar runs off with Lyanna, Elia is on Dragonstone, but for some reason she leaves and goes to King's Landing to be used as a hostage by Aerys. Who then commands at Dragonstone? Is it someone loyal to Rhaegar and Elia, or is it someone sent by Aerys? My guess would be the latter. The Tower of Joy is where Ashara's brother is, and she has reason to go seek his help, and Rhaegar and Elia have reason to trust him.

Again, it's late here, and I'm getting up early. Off to bed. Be well.

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

@SFDanny--fabulous topic! And I absolutely agree that Ashara is likely to be alive.

One question always frustrates me, though, about the Lemore theories--the eyes. Everyone seems to have noted Ashara's eyes. 

Characters in the novels can easily dye their hair--but no one notices Lemore's eyes--this seems odd if she's Ashara.

That said--I do think there's a mystery to be solved about Lemore. And in a lot of other ways, Ashara could really fit.

Thank you for reading it, Sly Wren.

I've answered this question about Lemore's eyes in old threads, but I probably should have included it here. So, let me try to do so quickly. I think Martin is playing a game with the reader about the debauched male gaze. The only time we get any detailed description of Lemore is from Tyrion as he recovers from alcohol and watches the the nude Lemore swimming in the river and dress before his eyes. The old stereotype of lecherous men, which Tyrion surely fulfills in this scene, is a man who constantly leers at a woman and tells them how much he loves her, and how she is the most beautiful woman in the world. Until the woman covers her eyes and asks what color are they? Tyrion, like the stereotype, has no interest in looking at or in Lemore's eyes, or informing the reader what color they are. In this scene he only sees the parts of Lemore that he lusts to have. In short, Martin uses Tyrion's debauched state as a reason to omit Lemore's eye color in his description of her. Quite frankly, if he gives a description of Lemore's eyes and they are described to be anything like Ashara's eyes, Martin would give away the game. That he give no description is meant to keep us wondering who she is. On the flip side, any description that tells us Lemore's eyes are a different color than Ashara would eliminate her as a possibility. That he tells us nothing keeps the mystery alive.

Now, that doesn't mean that after, or even before, Tyrion hasn't noticed her eyes. It is in his lustful, drunken state that it is unimportant. I suspect Tyrion at some point knows full well what color Lemore's eyes are and if they are Ashara's eyes, he probably considers the possibility that Lemore is Young Griff's real mother. As he tries to unravel the mysteries on that little riverboat, it is probably an important clue to Tyrion that Young Griff is a made up pretender. Certainly, he hasn't decided if Young Griff is really Aegon, or what exactly is Lemore's secret she needs to hide.

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Thank you for reading it, Sly Wren.

 My pleasure!

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I've answered this question about Lemore's eyes in old threads, but I probably should have included it here. So, let me try to do so quickly. I think Martin is playing a game with the reader about the debauched male gaze.

I'm loving this theory--especially in novels where the trees have eyes and the God's Eye island--the implications of the power of gaze is. . . fascinating. That could make a fascinating thread.

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The only time we get any detailed description of Lemore is from Tyrion as he recovers from alcohol and watches the the nude Lemore swimming in the river and dress before his eyes. The old stereotype of lecherous men, which Tyrion surely fulfills in this scene, is a man who constantly leers at a woman and tells them how much he loves her, and how she is the most beautiful woman in the world. Until the woman covers her eyes and asks what color are they? Tyrion, like the stereotype, has no interest in looking at or in Lemore's eyes, or informing the reader what color they are. In this scene he only sees the parts of Lemore that he lusts to have. In short, Martin uses Tyrion's debauched state as a reason to omit Lemore's eye color in his description of her.

This would work much better if Tyrion wasn't so fascinated with eyes and their color throughout the novels--I just ran it through asearchoficeandfire to be sure: Tyrion's POVs have more mentions of eyes than any other character's POVs--I think possibly because of his dislike of his own eyes--he brings them up a lot.

But more importantly--he really notices the eyes of women--specifically the eye color. Not just Shae or Tysha, but all beautiful women: Chataya--on first meeting; a number of Chataya's girls, on first meeting; Lord Merryweather's wife; Sansa--when he starts noticing how she's as beautiful Margery. And he definitely notices Sweets' violet eyes. 

I won't list all the other eyes he notices--it's a long list.

The point: while the idea of the male gaze is really cool, I can't see how it would apply to Tyrion in terms of eye color. He notices eye color as part of his debauchery and objectification of women. 

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Quite frankly, if he gives a description of Lemore's eyes and they are described to be anything like Ashara's eyes, Martin would give away the game. That he give no description is meant to keep us wondering who she is. On the flip side, any description that tells us Lemore's eyes are a different color than Ashara would eliminate her as a possibility. That he tells us nothing keeps the mystery alive.

Agreed--but, as I said above, Tyrion really, really notices the eye color of beautiful women (and most people in who affect him in the novels). 

And a LOT is made of Ashara's eyes when she's mentioned.

So, his not noting her eyes is a bit odd and out of character. 

Plus, if Martin wanted to obscure the eye color, he could do something like Quaithe's mask--Dany can see Quaithe's eyes are wet, but not their color. No mention of the color--the mask helps hide that. 

As you say--it isn't settled until Tryion says something about her eyes. But he notes beautiful eyes. Often--even Cersei's. Really, really seems like he'd note Lemore's if they were anything like Ashara's are reputed to be.

All that said--Lemore's mystery/real identity really seems to be a thing. I'm currently partial to the idea that she's Tyene's mother.

And the idea that Ashara was a plotter and involved in hiding Aegon? That I buy completely. We've got potential parallels in some of the symbolic connections between her and Lysa--who was definitely involved in political plotting.

[SFDanny]

4 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

If Ashara was ONLY introduced as one of Elia's lady-in-waiting, yes I would agree with you that Ashara would not be let in the dungeons. BUT Ashara's brother happens to be a kingsguard, and they have access to the dungeons. And a reminder, Brandon was in the dungeons for weeks, waiting for his father, Rickard Stark, to come to King's Landing.

Where is Ser Arthur during this entire time? Last we knew he was with Rhaegar when the "kidnapping" takes place. Which it makes it hard for Ser Arthur to be escorting his sister into the black cells for private time with Brandon, because we know when Brandon and company arrive in the Red Keep, Rhaegar is no where to be found. Of course, this assumes that the man who runs the black cells (Varys) would let any Kingsguard in them. I do accept that Brandon and his friends are in the black cells for at least weeks. Ethan Glover for considerably longer.

4 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

The surface mystery is still unsolved yet, who is father of Ashara's stillborn baby? Or does this part don't matter? Why do we have to go into a second mystery that has no textual support? In your theory, Ashara is guilty by association and guilty of PROBABLY being at the right place and right time. And remind me again, who are her enemies when she comes back for vengeance? I'm genuinely confused. Robert Barthaeon? Aerys? Aerys is dead, and Rhaegar died fighting for House Targaryen.

There is a mystery to Ashara, no doubt about it. She is only given a dozen (not dozenS) details, and every detail should matter and not disregarded. Could there be more to Ashara besides these dozen details? Absolutely, but GRRM hasn't written about them yet, at least not in these books. So far, I only see the damsel in distress.

I'm not trying to be harsh or anything. We are given limited details about Ashara, and if a presented theory relied on some these limited detailed to be fake or doesn't matter, its hard to take the theory seriously.

The most likely father for Ashara's stillborn baby is Brandon and the child is conceived during the Harrenhal tourney. I thought I had made that clear when I projected the stillbirth into mid-282, but perhaps not. The textual support is the quote from Ser Barristan about Ashara turning to Stark.

I don't understand your claim Ashara that is guilty of something. I haven't claimed she is, other than, if she is Septa Lemore, of being part of Varys's conspiracy. Who are her enemies? In this scenario, those who overthrew the Targaryens and killed Rhaegar, Elia, and their children. By helping to attempt to put "Aegon" on the Iron Throne she gets some measure of revenge.

You can be harsh if you like, but I use all the details we know of Ashara to construct this theory. It is only that the parameters are set by so little facts. If you choose to not take it seriously, that is all up to you and you're welcome to do so.

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

This would work much better if Tyrion wasn't so fascinated with eyes and their color throughout the novels--I just ran it through asearchoficeandfire to be sure: Tyrion's POVs have more mentions of eyes than any other character's POVs--I think possibly because of his dislike of his own eyes--he brings them up a lot.

But more importantly--he really notices the eyes of women--specifically the eye color. Not just Shae or Tysha, but all beautiful women: Chataya--on first meeting; a number of Chataya's girls, on first meeting; Lord Merryweather's wife; Sansa--when he starts noticing how she's as beautiful Margery. And he definitely notices Sweets' violet eyes. 

I won't list all the other eyes he notices--it's a long list.

The point: while the idea of the male gaze is really cool, I can't see how it would apply to Tyrion in terms of eye color. He notices eye color as part of his debauchery and objectification of women. 

Agreed--but, as I said above, Tyrion really, really notices the eye color of beautiful women (and most people in who affect him in the novels). 

And a LOT is made of Ashara's eyes when she's mentioned.

So, his not noting her eyes is a bit odd and out of character. 

Plus, if Martin wanted to obscure the eye color, he could do something like Quaithe's mask--Dany can see Quaithe's eyes are wet, but not their color. No mention of the color--the mask helps hide that. 

As you say--it isn't settled until Tryion says something about her eyes. But he notes beautiful eyes. Often--even Cersei's. Really, really seems like he'd note Lemore's if they were anything like Ashara's are reputed to be.

All that said--Lemore's mystery/real identity really seems to be a thing. I'm currently partial to the idea that she's Tyene's mother.

And the idea that Ashara was a plotter and involved in hiding Aegon? That I buy completely. We've got potential parallels in some of the symbolic connections between her and Lysa--who was definitely involved in political plotting.

Flip the script and ask yourself why Tyrion doesn't mention Lemore's eye color? Is it because they are totally unremarkable? Your own evidence works against you. Tyrion mentions eye color more than any other character? I haven't done the search, but I accept your premise. But surely, not all the eye coloring that he mentions is because the coloring is remarkable. One would then expect him then to comment on Lemore's eyes if they are unremarkable or knock-you-on-your-ass-buckle-your-knees exotic. Yet he doesn't mention them in this particular case. Which makes me want to look at the scene and see if I can figure out why he doesn't. I've given you my analysis of the scene and why he doesn't, and why it makes sense for him not to in this particular case. Of course, I may be wrong in my read of it, but you asked and I hopefully have supplied an answer.

It's very good to read you posts, Sly Wren. Thanks again for the comments.

[Bael's Bastard]

12 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I don't know how that matters to anything. A few months later, Brandon went to King's Landing after Lyanna's abduction, and demanded Rhaegar to come out and die.

Because it is a pertinent part of the chain of events that led up to Brandon riding into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Rhaegar to come out and die.

At the start of the Harrenhal Tourney, Lyanna "roar[ed]" and "howled" when she found three squires pushing down and kicking her father's bannerman Howland Reed, laying into them with tourney swords and scattering them. She then took the bruised and bloodied Howland back to her "lair," where he met her brothers, led by Brandon.

During the feast to mark the opening of the tourney, Rhaegar sang a song so sad it made Lyanna sniffle, and when Benjen teased her for crying, she poured wine over his head. Howland saw Ashara Dayne dance with a number of people, including Eddard, after Brandon spoke to her on his behalf.

At some point, Howland saw the three squires who had attacked him, along with the knights they served. Lyanna saw them too, and pointed them out to her brothers. Benjen offered to find him a horse and some armor that might fit, while Eddard offered him a place in his tent that night.

Five days of jousting were planned, and by the morning of the second day, the three knights whose squires had attacked Howland had won places among the five champions.

The Knight of the Laughing Tree, short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces, appeared as the shadows grew long late on the afternoon of the second day. He dipped his lance before the king, rode to where the five champions had their pavilions, and challenged the three knights whose squires had attacked Howland.

The Knight of the Laughing Tree successfully defeated each of the three knights, and when the knights sought to ransom their horse and armor, he told them that it shall be ransom enough that they teach their squire honor, and returned their horses and armor to them after the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply. 

On the morning of the third day, only two champions appeared, the Knight of the Laughing Tree having vanished after defeating three of the five champions. Aerys was wroth, and sent Rhaegar to look for him, but they allegedly only ever found his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree.

Rhaegar went on to win the Harrenhal Tourney, defeating Brandon, Yohn Royce, Arthur Dayne, and in the final tilt Barristan Selmy. After defeating Barristan to win the Harrenhal Tourney, Rhaegar laid the queen of love and beauty laurel of blue winter roses in Lyanna's lap. Brandon had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar.

But before having to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar after he laid the queen of love and beauty crown in Lyanna's lap, and before riding into the Red Keep shouting for Rhaegar to come out and die after abducting Lyanna, Brandon or someone on his behalf would have had to seek Rhaegar out to ransom his horse and armor, having fallen to him during the tourney.

Whether Brandon's loss to Rhaegar, and/or his likely attempt to ransom his stuff back, occurred before or after Rhaegar was sent to look for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, we don't know.

And whether Rhaegar made him ransom his horse and armor, or offered to give him back his horse and armor without taking a ransom as Baelor Breakspear did Ser Arlen, or offered to give him back his horse and armor on some condition as the Knight of the Laughing Tree did the knights whose squires had attacked Howland, we also don't know.

But Brandon's loss to Rhaegar implies that a face to face would have occurred between them at some point before Rhaegar's controversial crowning of Lyanna, as Brandon would have had to ransom back his horse and armor. And considering everything else that happened before and after that implied face to face, I  think it matters to everything.

Perhaps Brandon sent someone else in his place to ransom his horse and armor. Perhaps some of his family members accompanied him to ransom his horse and armor. Perhaps Rhaegar had someone else handle it for him. Perhaps nothing of note happened at all.

But I don't think it is a stretch at all to think that there was a face to face between Rhaegar and Brandon after Rhaegar's defeat of Brandon and before Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna, and that it wasn't a completely boring, uneventful face to face. I, for one, would love to know if such a thing occurred, and what was said and/or done during it.

[Bael's Bastard]

Regarding Tyrion and Lemore's eyes, I personally do think it is notable that Tyrion makes no note of Lemore's eyes if they are purple. Yes, Tyrion also sometimes notes eyes that are not remarkably purple or remarkably unique, but I don't think him failing to note purple eyes is the same as him failing to note unremarkable eyes.

The first time he sees her it's as "a handsome septa in a soft white robe stepped through the cabin door and pushed a lock of dark brown hair from her eyes" (ADWD: Tyrion III). And especially in ADWD: Tyrion IV, where he is not being allowed to drink, he notes Lemore's hair flowing loose around her shoulders, and goes on to note the dark blue, sometimes almost purple eyes of AeGriff in contrast to the pale blue eyes of Griff a dozen and a half paragraphs or so later, but nothing on Lemore's there or elsewhere.

George could be choosing to conceal Tyrion seeing that she has these beautiful purple eyes so as not to give it away right away, but that just seems very unlikely to me. I don't dismiss the Ashara theories strictly based on that lack of mention, as we have been discussing everything else without touching on the eyes, but I do personally think it is notable.

[Ygrain]

"The straw on the floor stank of urine. There was no window, no bed, not even a slop bucket."

Add to it that Brandon hadn't washed for a couple of weeks. Really, who would miss a chance for a dungeon sex?

Also, I don't think that at Aerys' court, being a sister to Rhaegar's sworn shield means that you can go wherever you want.

 

[Ygrain]

3 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Regarding Tyrion and Lemore's eyes, I personally do think it is notable that Tyrion makes no note of Lemore's eyes if they are purple. Yes, Tyrion also sometimes notes eyes that are not remarkably purple or remarkably unique, but I don't think him failing to note purple eyes is the same as him failing to note unremarkable eyes.

The first time he sees her it's as "a handsome septa in a soft white robe stepped through the cabin door and pushed a lock of dark brown hair from her eyes" (ADWD: Tyrion III). And especially in ADWD: Tyrion IV, where he is not being allowed to drink, he notes Lemore's hair flowing loose around her shoulders, and goes on to note the dark blue, sometimes almost purple eyes of AeGriff in contrast to the pale blue eyes of Griff a dozen and a half paragraphs or so later, but nothing on Lemore's there or elsewhere.

George could be choosing to conceal Tyrion seeing that she has these beautiful purple eyes so as not to give it away right away, but that just seems very unlikely to me. I don't dismiss the Ashara theories strictly based on that lack of mention, as we have been discussing everything else without touching on the eyes, but I do personally think it is notable.

IMHO, noticing one person having purple eyes instead of blue and not comment (and not ponder on a possible connection) on another person's purple eyes would be terrible writing. If a young man with purple eyes travells in the company of a middle-aged woman with purple eyes and stretchmarks on her belly, the logical conclusion is that the two might be mother and son, yet no such train of thought is mentioned in any way. 

[Bael's Bastard]

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

"The straw on the floor stank of urine. There was no window, no bed, not even a slop bucket."

Add to it that Brandon hadn't washed for a couple of weeks. Really, who would miss a chance for a dungeon sex?

Also, I don't think that at Aerys' court, being a sister to Rhaegar's sworn shield means that you can go wherever you want.

Yeah, thing's working against Ashara having freedom of movement within the Red Keep or in and out of King's Landing:

- being Dornish
- being a companion of Elia Martell
- being a sister of Rhaegar's best friend and ally

I am certain Aerys would have used Ashara as a hostage against Arthur had she been anywhere near the Red Keep when he determined to use Elia and her children as hostages.

Her relationship to Arthur wouldn't have done her any good with Aerys, because Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend and ally, and was likely suspected as part of whatever plots Rhaegar was suspected of.

I wouldn't be surprised if that is part of why he kept Arthur and Oswell so far away from Aerys and KL during the war, where Aerys couldn't threaten them or use them against him.

[Lord Varys]

The real issue with the Lemore thing is that she has brown hair. Ashara Dayne didn't have brown her. She had black hair. We do know that the dye Aegon and Connington use can be washed out (it is said that Aegon will wash his hair at Storm's End) and we also do know that Lemore does take baths in the Rhoyne on a regular basis.

What does this tell us about the likelihood that she dyed her hair brown?

In addition, there is the whole purple eyes thing. It is possible that Tyrion just overlooked all that but in combination with the hair thing and the general description of Lemore - she is just handsome, not a great beauty, and Ashara would still be visibly a great beauty that has aged somewhat.

Lemore might be Aegon's mother but she is not Ashara Dayne.

[Bael's Bastard]

13 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

IMHO, noticing one person having purple eyes instead of blue and not comment (and not ponder on a possible connection) on another person's purple eyes would be terrible writing. If a young man with purple eyes travells in the company of a middle-aged woman with purple eyes and stretchmarks on her belly, the logical conclusion is that the two might be mother and son, yet no such train of thought is mentioned in any way. 

I completely agree. 

[Bael's Bastard]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The real issue with the Lemore thing is that she has brown hair. Ashara Dayne didn't have brown her. She had black hair. We do know that the dye Aegon and Connington use can be washed out (it is said that Aegon will wash his hair at Storm's End) and we also do know that Lemore does take baths in the Rhoyne on a regular basis.

What does this tell us about the likelihood that she dyed her hair brown?

In addition, there is the whole purple eyes thing. It is possible that Tyrion just overlooked all that but in combination with the hair thing and the general description of Lemore - she is just handsome, not a great beauty, and Ashara would still be visibly a great beauty that has aged somewhat.

Lemore might be Aegon's mother but she is not Ashara Dayne.

Where do you get that from? As far as I can tell, Ashara's hair color is never described other than "dark," which could just as easily be brown as black. I don't think it is possible Tyrion just overlooked purple eyes.

Lemore being described as handsome is not a big deal at all in determining whether Lemore could be Ashara. It is 300 AC, not 281 AC. And beauty does not automatically work like that.