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Is Littlefinger Getting Bankrolled?


John Suburbs

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16 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

If he increased the customs haul at Gulltown ten-fold, this means the cost of doing business there is now ten times what it was before. Don't you think this would piss off a lot of people and would actually depress economic activity at the port? I can see where he can squeeze a little more from the till by getting rid of corrupt or incompetent collectors, but a ten-fold increase? Neither Jon Arryn nor his castellans ever noticed that they were only getting one-tenth the revenue they were entitled to? I find that hard to swallow.

Then he goes on to repeat this same process at KL, with nary a complaint from the traders who now have to pay the full custom or the merchants/tradesmen on the docks who are suddenly presented with inflated prices because the crown has upped its take by 1000 percent?

Maybe Martin just fudged all these details, or maybe he left yet another clue in plain site that all is not as it seems, especially when it comes to Littlefinger.

That would depend on how hes increased them and what the profit margins were like before (probably enormous given the setting ) etc and yes the previous guys under jon arryn would prob be minor  nobles ie usualy deeply incompetent and uninterested in trade,buisness and economics/numers in general ,its  a world where most nobles incomes are all largely handled for them by stewarts and largely come from lands owned not trade.

Also bear in mind the 3-10 times may have been both a phrase used to simply say he vastly and noticably increased them  they may not be meant literaly

Lets say the previous guys were the sort of chinless inbred nobles europe was plauged with in charge  for centuries ...you would no doubt expect vast vast amounts of wastage ! I mean the freys got rich (and a little looked down on) off installing what is  basicaly a toll bridge for south north trade !

 

I can see lf installing a few competent guys to ensure an accuarate list of all ships entering and detailed lists of what they carry so nothing is missing taxation ,with maybe him creating a new reasonable  tax on each item offloaded in proportion to its value in place of a previous small flat fee for  all of it. 

All in all it prob wouldnt depress trade that much as the merchants are already making an absolute fortune on each ship offloaded  , esp if lf used some of that money to maybe  vastly speed up the docking and unloading process to increase turnover of ships there!!

 

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41 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

Also bear in mind the 3-10 times may have been both a phrase used to simply say he vastly and noticably increased them  they may not be meant literaly

Exactly this. Lysa saying “tenfold” can easily be put down to her exaggerating Littlefinger’s abilities. Tyrion saying “three times” my be accurate, but I doubt he knows exactly how much Littlefinger increased revenues in Gullstown years ago. He’s more likely to know that Littlefinger brought in a lot of money, and got himself noticed by Jon Arryn. It may be that Littlefinger had a particularly good quarter one time, and that’s what caught Jon Arryn’s attention.

As to how he could have increased income, he doesn’t necessarily have to increase taxes (I would assume that wouldn’t be a decision for a customs official anyway). He may have just increased efficiency in the process, blocked “loop holes”, or found certain goods that weren’t being taxed properly and straightened it out.

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16 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, it's major enough that Illyrio has crossed the Narrow Sea to discuss it in person with Varys. Illyrio needs time, but Littlefinger's meddling has brought the war on too soon. In my book, that's major interference. It's not an easy thing to kill a lord, and, yes, the murder of the Master of Coin would generate major questions.

Varys was present when LF told the lie to Catelyn about the knife. He could have perfectly told her or Ned the truth. He didn't. Of course, he couldn't have foreseen Cat meeting Tyrion in her way North. In my opinion, the way that events developed made the war quite inevitable, regardless of Varys actions and he seemed to have seen that.

I also disagree that Littlefinger death would have been a major shake up during Robert reign. It might have raised some eyebrows, but LF is such a lowborn that most would have just shrugged off. Look how Jaime thinks of LF

"..or even Petyr Baelish. Littlefinger was as amiable as he was clever, but too lowborn to threaten any of the great lords, with no swords of his own. The perfect Hand" - Jaime VII, AFFC

Counting coopers is really a task that no major lord would consider it important.

 

16 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, Ned Stark is the biggest problem in Varys' eyes. But why does neither he nor Illyrio think much of Littlefinger even though they both can see that it is his meddling that has brought things to a head much sooner than they anticipated? Beyond that, why do neither of them even recognize that LF is probably the only player in this game whose motivations are completely hidden? They know all the secrets of virtually everyone of note in King's Landing, but they aren't even slightly perturbed by the fact that they know nothing about Littlefinger. I submit that one likely explanation is that Varys does not want to admit that he is being out-played in the spy game, while Illyrio is already fully aware of what LF is doing.

I think they have their own blindspots regarding LF. As LF is not a lord, doesn't command swords and doesn't have any true allies, they think LF is just a nuisance in the whole thing. He wasn't of course but again, the plan could have continued regardless of what LF did. It didn't critically depend on LF actions.

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1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

I think they have their own blindspots regarding LF. As LF is not a lord, doesn't command swords and doesn't have any true allies, they think LF is just a nuisance in the whole thing. He wasn't of course but again, the plan could have continued regardless of what LF did. It didn't critically depend on LF actions.

Littlefinger has something on Varys doesn't he? He tells Cat that he has Varys' balls in his hand, whatever that means.

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20 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

he increases revenues because he is adding additional revenue streams , He doesn't have to be increasing taxes to increase revenue 10 times .

Let's say before Littlefinger arrived the Iron Throne was getting $100,000 in tax revenue and once Littlefinger arrived he started lending out money instead of keeping it in the vault and he starts buying and selling grain , wool , lace , wine etc.. . So what you would have after Littlefinger adds these income streams is 

                 $100,000 tax revenue 

plus          $100,000 interest revenue from loans 

plus           $800,000 revenue from selling wool, lace, grain , bread etc.  

equals     $1,000,000  total revenue under Littlefinger. 

 

 so he's increased revenue 10 times but has not increased taxes . 

 

 

20 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

As Master of Coin ...

snip

But that's not what Tyrion says. Per your quote above:

Quote

Ten years ago, Jon Arryn had given him a minor sinecure in customs, where Lord Petyr had soon distinguished himself by bringing in three times as much as any of the king's other collectors

I agree that once he becomes MoC he has the ability to embezzle, loan, buy, sell, etc. But before he even gets there, he is bringing in three times the other collectors. Before that, he did the same at Gulltown. Sure, he may have skimmed a little off the top, but the bulk of these revenues are going to first House Arryn and then the crown. So the idea that he is able to triple his haul by leveraging his meager salary as a customs official plus whatever graft he is able to perform is pretty far-fetched.

And even once he does start all of this commodity trading as MoC, we still have the problem that money does not exist in a vacuum. Whatever wealth he is accumulating to himself is wealth that someone else is losing, and that's going to create enemies, disrupt the economy and at the very least tarnish his rep, if not get him killed. But he remains squeaky clean through all of this.

And as you might be aware, commodities trading is a very risky business. Unless he is fixing the markets, then he is just as likely to lose as win on any given purchase. If he is fixing markets, then again, a lot of people will be unhappy as dress-makers can no longer get the satin they need for their highborn clients, armorers can't get steel, bakers have no grain... All these people will know that the crown is taking these supplies right of the docks and hoarding them, and then they have to pay exorbitant rates whenever the crown decides at wants to capitalize on its control of the markets. So it's very easy to say $800k buying and selling, but it is very difficult to do day after day, month after month, year after year -- and when you start doing this in the millions, impossible without causing a whole lot of disruption.

 

 

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19 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

We don't hear about it, but we also don't hear anything else about how he increased revenue. Yes, if there's higher volume the capacity of the port would need to increase. Any growing business needs to... grow. Presumably Baelish handled this well.

Well, my point exactly. If the incomes are up, that means economic activity is up, which means more ships in the harbor, more merchants in the streets, more traders coming and going... But we never hear about any of this, or the added expense that this would bring in the form of new infrastructure, housing, etc. So my contention is that the economy is pretty much the same as it's always been, but the increased revenues are coming from someone on the outside who is trying to destabilize the realm; thus, the reason for all of this complicated buy, selling and lending and the continued reliance on debt financing to keep it all afloat, for the moment.

19 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Most likely they would take their tariffs in coin, not by physically unloading whatever goods were being moved. There's probably a whole song and dance about "this cargo is worth fifty stags!" "no, it's worth five and thirty stags at the most" "last year you got forty stags." and so forth. Plenty of room for bribery and kickbacks and other waste, too.

Merchants and traders might have coin, but most smallfolk would pay in goods, because that's all they have.

19 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

It was an example. One particularly short-sighted lord might be demanding 50% while the others are more reasonable. The point is, it isn't standardized and those lords aren't necessarily considering how their tariffs are impacting traffic along the road, and one of the problems with inherited nobility is that there's no good way to ensure the people in charge actually know what they're doing. Maybe there just isn't a good way to convince Lord Thirty-Three Percent that his tariffs are discouraging traffic along the road, that he would be better off with a lower tariff, that he would make more money by demanding less. That wouldn't make sense to him because he can only process a few layers of cause and effect. Someone who COULD get him to lower his tariffs, or could convince Aryn to force him to lower his tariffs, would be in a position to make a positive change. And figuring out how to make money flow properly and convincing people to take actions against their own apparent interests are both in Baelish's skillset.

The overlord would not put up with this. He makes his living by selling the excess bounty from his land, not distributing virtually all of it to his vassals. Each vassal, meanwhile, receives income from his own land and brings their excess to market as well. If vassals at the beginning of this process were not receiving anything because it's all being confiscated by their peers, there would be political disunion if not outright warfare within the realm. One of the basic functions of a high lord is to regulate commerce within their domain so everybody gets a fair shake and goods get to market where they can be sold at the highest price.

If this is the way the Arryn's had been running things all these years, it wouldn't take a genius to realize the problem.

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7 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

That would depend on how hes increased them and what the profit margins were like before (probably enormous given the setting ) etc and yes the previous guys under jon arryn would prob be minor  nobles ie usualy deeply incompetent and uninterested in trade,buisness and economics/numers in general ,its  a world where most nobles incomes are all largely handled for them by stewarts and largely come from lands owned not trade.

Also bear in mind the 3-10 times may have been both a phrase used to simply say he vastly and noticably increased them  they may not be meant literaly

Lets say the previous guys were the sort of chinless inbred nobles europe was plauged with in charge  for centuries ...you would no doubt expect vast vast amounts of wastage ! I mean the freys got rich (and a little looked down on) off installing what is  basicaly a toll bridge for south north trade !

 

I can see lf installing a few competent guys to ensure an accuarate list of all ships entering and detailed lists of what they carry so nothing is missing taxation ,with maybe him creating a new reasonable  tax on each item offloaded in proportion to its value in place of a previous small flat fee for  all of it. 

All in all it prob wouldnt depress trade that much as the merchants are already making an absolute fortune on each ship offloaded  , esp if lf used some of that money to maybe  vastly speed up the docking and unloading process to increase turnover of ships there!!

 

Sorry, I don't buy it. The Arryns would certainly notice if their income from Gulltown was only a third or 10 percent of what it should be, and they would certainly notice if the merchants and other non-nobles are suddenly vastly wealthy due to the effectively duty-free trade coming and going from the city. This is exactly what did happen in feudal Europe once trade routes to the east opened up: traders and merchants started accumulating wealth in excess of what the lords were getting from their lands, so the lords and their kings instituted duties and tariffs to get a piece of it, and they were very careful when it came to getting the proper amount.

I can see LF boosting revenue maybe 20 percent, 30 tops, but three times? 10 times? No way. Sure, these estimates might be hyperbole, but he did well enough to get noticed, so it had to be a significant amount.

The Arryns would have been beggared long ago if their collectors were this incompetent for so long. And again, we would also have the problem that LF would engender deep resentment from just about everyone in Gulltown if he came in and put an end to the cozy business environment. Remember, he has virtually no lands, no wealth to speak of, no men, no nothing. If he caused this kind of disruption to men who do have wealth, men, arms, etc., he never would have survived. Powerful men who were getting, say, 100 dragons per shipload are not going to care about faster docking and unloading when they are losing 30 dragons per trip, let alone 90. 

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21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry to belabor, but how does he just increase revenues? If he is taking in ten times more in than the last customs guy, that's ten times the cost of business for all the traders, merchants, craftsmen, etc. at the port. That's literally a 1000 percent increase in taxes. Somebody, surely, would complain about this, and LF would be a marked man.

It isn't just about increasing taxes.  Eliminating bottlenecks (personal or structural, like a corrupt or drunken harbor master,)   streamlining fees, and making it easier move goods into the city and  thus increasing revenue.  LF could hire better tax collectors. Also, Tyrion said he seems to have a sense for when  by goods cheap and store them so they can be sold when prices are high. 

 

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I don't know what the flow of revenue is at Gulltown, but at KL it must be in the millions of dragons. 

Probably more. The prize at a KL tourney is 40,000 dragons. 

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Even the finest virgin whore goes for one dragon, and only one time at that. He would need thousands of whores working day and night to generate enough income to pass it off as a significant gain in revenues. Usury is an option, to be sure, but that also tends to produce enemies, and he has none that we can see.

No, the daughter of a barkeep in Oldtown goes for a dragon. And LF's whore houses are one of the many ways he pads his own pockets.

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

A 20-year-old kid with no lands to speak of and no soldiers to back him up, and he's going to walk into Gulltown and tell these hardened mobsters and all their muscle to take a hike? Sorry, Dor, but this one is a non-starter. 

He would run gulltown customs with the full support of the lord paramount of the vale and the warden of the west. 
Again, networked trees and hairy giants  are a thing but a ruthless young man isn't? 

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Did LF send Slynt to the Wall? I thought that was Tyrion, and he has the full might of Casterly Rock and the Iron Throne to back him up.

The point is that there was obvious corruption. 

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This is more than just economic genius. You don't just walk into a customs position and increase revenues by 1000 percent without causing a whole lot of disruption. But you can do exactly that if you have an outside source of wealth that you can use to augment your performance.

Disruption? Like a war? And who says there wasn't? We will never get a LF pov

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5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I also disagree that Littlefinger death would have been a major shake up during Robert reign. It might have raised some eyebrows, but LF is such a lowborn that most would have just shrugged off. Look how Jaime thinks of LF

"..or even Petyr Baelish. Littlefinger was as amiable as he was clever, but too lowborn to threaten any of the great lords, with no swords of his own. The perfect Hand" - Jaime VII, AFFC

Counting coopers is really a task that no major lord would consider it important.

Littlefinger? The man who increased income 10-fold? The irreplaceable financial wizard who rubs two coins together to get a third is murdered, and no one would care? I think you vastly underestimate his value to the crown. What Jaime says is actually a testament to his value: too lowborn to be a threat, but immensely useful nonetheless.

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I think they have their own blindspots regarding LF. As LF is not a lord, doesn't command swords and doesn't have any true allies, they think LF is just a nuisance in the whole thing. He wasn't of course but again, the plan could have continued regardless of what LF did. It didn't critically depend on LF actions.

Illyrio is not stupid. He never would have gotten to his position if he was. He should know a threat when he sees one, and he is not blinded by lords or wealth -- he recognizes talent regardless of station. LF has mucked up a plan that has been years, if not decades, in the making, and he controls the purse strings that can either make Robert Baratheon the most powerful king in history or bring him to his knees.

It is inconceivable that a man like Illyrio does not see LF for the threat that he is, if indeed he actually views him this way.

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3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It isn't just about increasing taxes.  Eliminating bottlenecks (personal or structural, like a corrupt or drunken harbor master,)   streamlining fees, and making it easier move goods into the city and  thus increasing revenue.  LF could hire better tax collectors. Also, Tyrion said he seems to have a sense for when  by goods cheap and store them so they can be sold when prices are high. 

There is actually nothing to suggest he has done much of this sort of stuff or that it was done so poorly before so he could optimise it to make so much money. He may have done minor things in this regard but the area that has been written into the books is that he would invest the money like a modern day broker.

Quote

He went back to work after she left, trying to track some golden dragons through the labyrinth of Littlefinger's ledgers. Petyr Baelish had not believed in letting gold sit about and grow dusty, that was for certain, but the more Tyrion tried to make sense of his accounts the more his head hurt. It was all very well to talk of breeding dragons instead of locking them up in the treasury, but some of these ventures smelled worse than week-old fish. I wouldn't have been so quick to let Joffrey fling the Antler Men over the walls if I'd known how many of the bloody bastards had taken loans from the crown. He would have to send Bronn to find their heirs, but he feared that would prove as fruitful as trying to squeeze silver from a silverfish.

But I return to what I said earlier in the thread. Littlefinger was almost certainly embezzling massive amount of coin. The crown simply couldn't get into so much debt if he was making as much money as he was feted with. The quote above hints at not only the way Littlefinger went amount generating money, but also the overly complicated way of covering his tracks, both to hide money he stole but to also generate an "accounting" profit that does not actually correlate to a real profit.

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4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

And even once he does start all of this commodity trading as MoC, we still have the problem that money does not exist in a vacuum. Whatever wealth he is accumulating to himself is wealth that someone else is losing, and that's going to create enemies, disrupt the economy and at the very least tarnish his rep, if not get him killed. But he remains squeaky clean through all of this.

 

 

How would anybody know that it is Littlefiger who is taking their wealth? Littlefinger would have his partners buying and selling commodities based on Littlefinger's inside knowledge of what the Iron Throne is buying or selling . The merchants who are losing out on these deals will have zero idea that Littlefinger is behind anything , they are just going to be angry that they losing out on deals and their business is making less profit but they will be chalking up to just regular business up and downs and are not going to be able to realize that Littlefinger is behind all of it . Littlefinger will just be taking a little bit here and there but over several years time it will add up to  a fortune . 

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3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, I don't buy it. The Arryns would certainly notice if their income from Gulltown was only a third or 10 percent of what it should be, and they would certainly notice if the merchants and other non-nobles are suddenly vastly wealthy due to the effectively duty-free trade coming and going from the city. This is exactly what did happen in feudal Europe once trade routes to the east opened up: traders and merchants started accumulating wealth in excess of what the lords were getting from their lands, so the lords and their kings instituted duties and tariffs to get a piece of it, and they were very careful when it came to getting the proper amount.

I can see LF boosting revenue maybe 20 percent, 30 tops, but three times? 10 times? No way. Sure, these estimates might be hyperbole, but he did well enough to get noticed, so it had to be a significant amount.

The Arryns would have been beggared long ago if their collectors were this incompetent for so long. And again, we would also have the problem that LF would engender deep resentment from just about everyone in Gulltown if he came in and put an end to the cozy business environment. Remember, he has virtually no lands, no wealth to speak of, no men, no nothing. If he caused this kind of disruption to men who do have wealth, men, arms, etc., he never would have survived.

Powerful men who were getting, say, 100 dragons per shipload are not going to care about faster docking and unloading when they are losing 30 dragons per trip, let alone 90. 

Why would they if its always been mired in the same incompetent and inefficent collection structure until jon took the chance with lf? Plus like  most of westeros lords get the bulk of their cash from lands and estates..this was common for most of the medieval ages and beyond for the aristocrats.

He did increase it a huge deal yes and  while 10 times is prob stretching it he prob did vastly increase the money collected prob mainly from plugging wastage 

 

No they wouldnt be we covered this..like most lords their wealth largely comes from landholdingsand until lf came along the harbour prob provided the same steady stream with huge volumes of cash going uncollected that they never knew existed til our sneaky lf came along.

 

As for powerful men killing lf?  we are talking the same guy who survived the far more treacherous snakepit of kl vs varys etc  plus hed be the lord of the vales man with   men at arms assigned  to ensure his safety and enforce tax collection etc                                plus the merchents would still be making money hand over fist ......and  we also  know he employed many former merchants and sons to the new lucrative various tax collection posts   before we even speculate how many he possibly sweetened by  bringing them into  any new  buisness deals he set up.                  

 

Lets say these men were getting 100 dragons for every ship offloaded (prob varies depending on what they hold), previously they may have paid say a few stags for offloading  and that shoots up to one whole dragon .......its still a huge profit and increase in revenue collected too. Its prob much more complex though depending on what each ship is carrying , prev it may have been one low flat fee whereas lf could have brought in a complexs series of  duties on goods to help milk more tax out of high value goods like spices or myrish lace  without puting off trade too much etc

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11 minutes ago, Makk said:

 

But I return to what I said earlier in the thread. Littlefinger was almost certainly embezzling massive amount of coin. The crown simply couldn't get into so much debt if he was making as much money as he was feted with. The quote above hints at not only the way Littlefinger went amount generating money, but also the overly complicated way of covering his tracks, both to hide money he stole but to also generate an "accounting" profit that does not actually correlate to a real profit.

Plenty of businesses get into debt even though they are profitable . The Crown was operating as an investment bank , making loans and buying and selling commodities and the best way to make a ton of money as an investment bank is to be leveraged to the max which means that you try to keep as much of your money out in the world making more money and as little as possible in your vault . It's the same thing that happened to the banks during the housing crisis and happens to profitable companies all the time , they are over leveraged and when their is a dip in business (or in the Iron Thrones case a civil war ) everything comes crashing down . 

As for the embezzling that seems too simple for somebody like Littlefinger , Insider trading would be the way for him to make a fortune and with the technology at that time would be nearly untraceable . 

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5 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Plenty of businesses get into debt even though they are profitable . The Crown was operating as an investment bank , making loans and buying and selling commodities and the best way to make a ton of money as an investment bank is to be leveraged to the max which means that you try to keep as much of your money out in the world making more money and as little as possible in your vault . It's the same thing that happened to the banks during the housing crisis and happens to profitable companies all the time , they are over leveraged and when their is a dip in business (or in the Iron Thrones case a civil war ) everything comes crashing down . 

As for the embezzling that seems too simple for somebody like Littlefinger , Insider trading would be the way for him to make a fortune and with the technology at that time would be nearly untraceable . 

Yep ageee with insider trading tyrion pretty much says as  much 

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33 minutes ago, Makk said:

There is actually nothing to suggest he has done much of this sort of stuff or that it was done so poorly before so he could optimise it to make so much money. He may have done minor things in this regard but the area that has been written into the books is that he would invest the money like a modern day broker.

 

Tyrions piece seems to say he replaced most of the tax and duties men with his own and is struck by how most seem to be of middling or lesser birth , merchants and foreigeners (former iron bank maybe?) mentioned ....seemsbto suggest  he did great job of removing loads of people who had jobs by birth and replaced them with men who probably got theirs by merit , men with the kind of skills and background to vastly  streamline the existing structure 

 

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1 hour ago, Makk said:

There is actually nothing to suggest he has done much of this sort of stuff or that it was done so poorly before so he could optimise it to make so much money. He may have done minor things in this regard but the area that has been written into the books is that he would invest the money like a modern day broker.

He had to have done something. His schemes are way too personal for him to be working for someone else. The other obvious question is who would it be?

1 hour ago, Makk said:

But I return to what I said earlier in the thread. Littlefinger was almost certainly embezzling massive amount of coin. The crown simply couldn't get into so much debt if he was making as much money as he was feted with. The quote above hints at not only the way Littlefinger went amount generating money, but also the overly complicated way of covering his tracks, both to hide money he stole but to also generate an "accounting" profit that does not actually correlate to a real profit.

The point of that quote was that he is skimming money. That money  had to come from somewhere. 

 

55 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

Tyrions piece seems to say he replaced most of the tax and duties men with his own and is struck by how most seem to be of middling or lesser birth , merchants and foreigeners (former iron bank maybe?) mentioned ....seemsbto suggest  he did great job of removing loads of people who had jobs by birth and replaced them with men who probably got theirs by merit , men with the kind of skills and background to vastly  streamline the existing structure 

 

This

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Well, I asked the question and you guys gave me your answers, so thanks for that. I still think this is rather fishy, but then again, just about everything to do with Littlefinger is fishy.

The one thing I'll add -- and I'm surprised nobody brought this up -- is that if LF was padding his receipts with outside money at Gulltown, then why would nobody think it odd that as soon as he left the revenue returned to normal? At the very least they should have peppered him on his tactics.

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16 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

The one thing I'll add -- and I'm surprised nobody brought this up -- is that if LF was padding his receipts with outside money at Gulltown, then why would nobody think it odd that as soon as he left the revenue returned to normal? At the very least they should have peppered him on his tactics.

He still has his own people in positions, and Cersei is incompetent.

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