MCU - X

[red snow]

19 hours ago, Kalbear said:

On Thanos' plan: it isn't meant to be particularly scientific. He is introduced in the movie as essentially a God, worshipped by others. His work is described in sacred tones. He isn't doing something because it makes sense. He's doing something because he has bought into an insane cult that he's the leader of, and wants to bring forward the apocalypse that he believes the galaxy needs. 

I think we're all in agreement that his plan only makes sense if you are insane. I guess it's just a case of whether that's what the filmakers wanted us to take from it. I'm guessing they did or at least didn't really feel Thanos required a rational motivation. Although going crazy because your planet died and ignored you works.

3 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Absolutely. Maybe there are some hiccups to the overall plan with Thanos, but it isn't totally befret of super villain rationality.

Having rewatched the movie a couple times now, I think it holds up better than I initially thought after the first viewing.  

I was also surprised how well it stood up to a rewatch. Even knowing how it was going to end still made it work besides added frustration at all the heroes constantly putting off cold, hard solutions. It highlighted how first time around i thought such ideals wouldn't matter because they'd win second time around i knew what was at stake.

Starlord has a hell of a lot to answer for. The film shows he's a flawed hero but dome of his actions directly led to half the universe dying and making him an insecure and petty person. He needs some redemption in endgame.

[Relic]

I pretty much hate just about every Marvel movie i am subjected to, most recently having watched the new Ant Man with some kids i was randomly babysitting. Anyway, last night i was bored so i watched Venom. What does it say about me that this movie entertained me far far more than 90% of the Marvel garbage ive seen? Like it was SO much more enjoyable to watch than Black Panther, which made me want to shoot myself in the face. I still turned it off half way thru, because my patience for most movies these days is very limited, but i was generally entertained and will probably finish it at some point. 

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, Relic said:

I pretty much hate just about every Marvel movie i am subjected to, most recently having watched the new Ant Man with some kids i was randomly babysitting. Anyway, last night i was bored so i watched Venom. What does it say about me that this movie entertained me far far more than 90% of the Marvel garbage ive seen? Like it was SO much more enjoyable to watch than Black Panther, which made me want to shoot myself in the face. I still turned it off half way thru, because my patience for most movies these days is very limited, but i was generally entertained and will probably finish it at some point. 

Good for you..

[Relic]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

Good for you..

Thanks buddy!

[Darth Richard II]

o.O

[mormont]

The thing with Thanos is this. Marvel seem to have decided that the way to make an interesting villain is to give them a halfway reasonable-sounding motivation, but have them use unacceptable, villainous means to achieve it. When this works (Killmonger) it's generally well received. And that's obviously the thinking behind Thanos' 'kill half the universe to stop overpopulation' schtick. But for a lot of people, that didn't work.

But it doesn't hurt the movie too much, I think, because the rest works well.

[Corvinus85]

3 hours ago, Relic said:

I pretty much hate just about every Marvel movie i am subjected to, most recently having watched the new Ant Man with some kids i was randomly babysitting. Anyway, last night i was bored so i watched Venom. What does it say about me that this movie entertained me far far more than 90% of the Marvel garbage ive seen? Like it was SO much more enjoyable to watch than Black Panther, which made me want to shoot myself in the face. I still turned it off half way thru, because my patience for most movies these days is very limited, but i was generally entertained and will probably finish it at some point. 

That's funny, because I recently watched it, and thought the first half was decent, while the second was crap, so... have fun.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

That's funny, because I recently watched it, and thought the first half was decent, while the second was crap, so... have fun.

There is just something incredibly funny to me about that dumb look on Tom Hardy's face followed up by Venom biting people's heads off. Maybe im a lot lot lot dumber than i like to think. 

[Jeor]

4 hours ago, mormont said:

The thing with Thanos is this. Marvel seem to have decided that the way to make an interesting villain is to give them a halfway reasonable-sounding motivation, but have them use unacceptable, villainous means to achieve it. When this works (Killmonger) it's generally well received. And that's obviously the thinking behind Thanos' 'kill half the universe to stop overpopulation' schtick. But for a lot of people, that didn't work.

But it doesn't hurt the movie too much, I think, because the rest works well.

I think overall they did a pretty good job with Thanos. With so many heroes around they had to spend some time on one character to bring it all together and it was logical in this case to make it the villain.

His reasons sound believable to me. Sure, he could have used the Gauntlet to double the amount of resources in the universe instead of killing half of the population. But if he's watched his own planet and people die and is potentially the last of his race (any other Titans around?), I could see why he would want to make everyone else go through what he went through (except to him it's even more "humane" and less suffering than he had).

And yes I've read online a lot of theories as to why he only did it now...presumably waiting for Odin (and Ego) to die etc. I guess the Power stone was always going to be an easy get from Xandar, and maybe the Reality stone from the Collector (we don't know how powered up the MCU version of the Collector is, but in the Comics he's definitely a heavy). But a forewarned Odin wielding the Space stone, or any of the Avengers properly figuring out how to use the stones would have been tough for Thanos to overcome if he only had one (maybe two) stones. With Odin out of the picture, he can easily get three of the stones, and with the Soul stone lost that only leaves two to potentially be wielded against him. So I feel like Odin might have been the swinging vote so to speak.

[Kalbear]

I thought that was answered in show. Nebula went to kill Thanos. Almost succeeded. He found out from her that the soul stones location was known. That was the missing piece. Before that he didn't care as much because having some of the stones just makes you an outsize threat. He has to get them all, and quickly. He only has one shot. 

[Jace, Extat]

9 hours ago, Relic said:

I pretty much hate just about every Marvel movie i am subjected to, most recently having watched the new Ant Man with some kids i was randomly babysitting. Anyway, last night i was bored so i watched Venom. What does it say about me that this movie entertained me far far more than 90% of the Marvel garbage ive seen? Like it was SO much more enjoyable to watch than Black Panther, which made me want to shoot myself in the face. I still turned it off half way thru, because my patience for most movies these days is very limited, but i was generally entertained and will probably finish it at some point. 

I fucking LOVED Venom. It was really poorly marketed and definitely on the sub-par side of good films, but it was fun! 

And it was a movie! Like an actual movie! You had a main character (and a half), a romance plot, a villain, trials and tribulations, personal growth... You know... things that happen in movies? And like they all kinda wanted something and they had like a reason or a hilarious god complex and they interacted with each other and GASP! Do... do you think that the real spirit of storytelling is about characters and how they interact with each other or work toward goals and not just loud noises interrupted by quippy dialogue? 

I don't hate Marvel films in general (although I would eat my own fingers before watching the Ant Man sequel again) but that formula really frustrates me sometimes and steals real emotional satisfaction from the viewing experience.

Black Panther, for instance, I thought had every piece they needed for an honest to god great film right there. RIGHT THERE. Literally in the movie. But it was all cluttered and nonsensicalized to fit the mold [GOTTA HAVE SPLOSIONS! WHERE'S THE SPLOSIONS!?!?!?!?!?!?] and build the universe further rather than just let you sink into Wakanda and its story of violent interdynastic regime change.

My real anger at Marvel films stems from them infecting everything else out there. Studios aren't trying to just replicate the Marvel Cinematic Universe concept they want the formula for the film's themselves too. It's infuriating. Just look at The Last Jedi. It's paced for my money exactly like Age of Ultron. And I enjoyed that uneven film with the wonderful crazy James Spader robot. But Star Wars is not the place for your comic book style spurts of action. It needs to be deliberate and developed, because we aren't here to see our favorite suphero fight the Hulk. That's not your foundation for a Star Wars film.

Superheroes are a power fantasy. Star Wars is a Heroes Journey. If you think those two things sound the same then congratulations, you enjoyed The Last Jedi and the prequels.

[Heartofice]

41 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

My real anger at Marvel films stems from them infecting everything else out there. Studios aren't trying to just replicate the Marvel Cinematic Universe concept they want the formula for the film's themselves too. It's infuriating.

I agree its infuriating, but its also hard to blame Disney for doing it. The economics of movies have changed so much over the past few years that its very difficult to take any risks. When the only movies that people are willing to see in an overpriced movie theatre are either sequels or built on existing properties then its not surprising that those are the ones the studios are wanting to make. 

Blockbuster movies are almost uniformly awful these days, I can't be certain they are much worse than they used to be, but I suspect they are. I suspect that part of the reason for this is that the process of making a movie is much more expensive and risky and so more money people get involved and there is far less creative freedom on the part of people who actually know how to make movies. Movies have to fit a formula in order to gain the investment needed to make them. 

Plus it seems that the requirements to make money back on a movie don't necessarily have to include writing a good story. Suicide Squad is a great example of marketing over story. 


As for Marvel, sure they have a few turkeys out there, such as Thor 2 and Black Panther, but when they get it right they make by far the best blockbuster movies around. Its hard to deny that Infinity War is great, or that Winter Soldier is top class on many levels, or that Ragnarok isn't a lot of fun. 

[The BlackBear]

4 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I thought that was answered in show. Nebula went to kill Thanos. Almost succeeded. He found out from her that the soul stones location was known. That was the missing piece. Before that he didn't care as much because having some of the stones just makes you an outsize threat. He has to get them all, and quickly. He only has one shot. 

This isn't quite borne out though.

Avengers: Thanos sends Loki (via his minions) with the Mind Stone (which is inside the scepter) to collect the Space Stone from earth. In the process of invading earth he'll get the Time Stone. That'll take him up to three, instead he loses the stone he had.

Guardians of the Galaxy, he sends Ronan to get the Power Stone.

All this is before Nebula was interrogated/downloaded. Now there's an argument to be made he knew Gamora was lying and planned to get the information out of her at a later date.

There are also questions about when he discovered the Space Stone and Reality Stone had been discovered. The Time Stone is even more of a mystery, how does he know where that is? Why did it take so long to find the Power Stone, is Space Archaeology not a big field?

 

Also just a minor point on Odin, the Space Stone was placed on Earth by Odin, and before Guardians the Reality Stone was placed with the Collector. Odin should theoretically be protecting both, and is still alive until quite a bit later.

That said I think Nidavellir is a pretty crucial part of the plan, it's meant to be protected by Asgard, and without the gauntlet Thanos can't wield the Stones properly. Things were retconned here and there, but obviously the concept of a Gauntlet was established as Asgard's vault had a 'fake.' Nidavellir was quite probably the only place Thanos could have it made.

[Jaxom 1974]

3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

As for Marvel, sure they have a few turkeys out there, such as Thor 2 and Black Panther, but when they get it right they make by far the best blockbuster movies around. Its hard to deny that Infinity War is great, or that Winter Soldier is top class on many levels, or that Ragnarok isn't a lot of fun. 

Did you seriously just call Black Panther a "turkey" of a movie?

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Did you seriously just call Black Panther a "turkey" of a movie?

Yep, I think its pretty awful

[BigFatCoward]

Turkey implies a flop. 

[Heartofice]

Just now, BigFatCoward said:

Turkey implies a flop. 

Fair enough. I simply didn't like it.

[Fez]

As someone who's seen probably about 2/3rds of the Marvel movies, I thought Thanos' plan didn't make sense and I was confused why he didn't have more stones already at the start of Infinity War.

However, the movie was entertaining enough and Josh Brolin was good enough at selling Thanos' emotions, that I didn't really care. It's not my favorite Marvel movie (still probably the original Iron Man), but it's on the short list of ones I actually liked.

[The BlackBear]

30 minutes ago, Fez said:

As someone who's seen probably about 2/3rds of the Marvel movies, I thought Thanos' plan didn't make sense and I was confused why he didn't have more stones already at the start of Infinity War.

Running them down in the order Thanos gets them in the film:

Power Stone: Appears in Guardians of the Galaxy 1, for most of the film is within a protective casing, is the MacGuffin, ends up on Xandar. Thanos ravages Xandar of screen before Infinity War.

Space Stone: Appears as the Tesseract in Captain America 1, dropped in the ocean. Tony Stark fishes it out, and it becomes the MacGuffin in Avengers 1. Is taken back to Asgard by Thor, there it remains until Loki steals it during Thor 3.

Reality Stone: Appears in Thor 2, is known as the Aether, is the MacGuffin, spends most of the film in Natalie Portman, ends up being given to the Collector by the Asgardians as they don't want two stones in one place.

Soul Stone: Has never appeared before.

Time Stone: Appears in Doctor Strange, is within the Eye of Agamotto, isn't the MacGuffin, but is integral to the resolution of the film. Doctor Strange keeps it.

Mind Stone: Appears in Avengers 1, where it is known as the Scepter, given to Loki by Thanos' minions. Reappears in Avengers 2, is what helps create Ultron's AI, and helps turn JARVIS into Vision.

 

He actually loses more stones pre Infinity War than he gains.

[Heartofice]

Ugh.. reminds me how many of these movies rely on a MacGuffin