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AlaskanSandman

What's in a naem? (Bael and Hardhome? Bolton's and Faceless Men?)

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Tugging at a ball of yarn, bear with me and share any random thoughts you may have.

If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. The Andal names are . . . well, neith Stark nor Targaryen, if that makes sense. Lannister. Arryn. Tyrell. Etc. Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man.

https://archive.is/St3S6#selection-3713.1-3717.252

Bael - Yep

Rhaegar - Yep

Peter Baelish - Yep

Dayne - Nope (Dorne)

House Stane - Nope (Skagos)

 

 

Daeryssa – During the Age of Heroes

Bael – Unknown time, and unknown if real, but tale is supposedly from the North but spelled Bael instead of Bale or Bayle.

 

So what’s going on here? Why do these two tales show the Valyrian spelling? Perhaps the Citadel just respelled them to appease Targaryens? Yet when Ygritte tells us the tale, the author spells it Bael still. But moving on.

 

Aside from Peter Baelish, and the Valyrian. Can we find this form of spelling anywhere else?? We can. The Dothraki in names like Vaes Dothrak

So what is going on here? The Dothraki are great horse lords but they don’t seem to be warging their horses as Varamyr would do, though Varamyr is said to ride a snow bear, so he must be able to still hold on and be present in the moment with in his body, and not fully inside the bear. Maybe this is similar? A mastery of the skill set, or just an altered form of it?

 

Could the Valyrians come from the Dothraki? Or their cousins the Lhazareen. And if so, how did they end up on the opposite side of Ghis in Valyria? And if so, what does this mean for Mirri Maz Dur and Daenerys. Did Mirri help Dany hatch her eggs, or was that not Mirri’s doing?

 

It would appear based off names alone that the Wildlings, and Mountains clans of the North and Vale do not share any link with Valyria. If anything, the guttural nature of some names makes me think Ghis more, but that’s a different subject. I will note though that House Dayne of the Dawn Age doesn’t share the same spelling as Stane. So House Dayne is likely neither First Man, nor Valyrian based off names alone.

 

All I have for now, but I will include all known Dothraki words.

 

Spoiler

 

Adakhakileki[19]The CannibalsA ruined city with unknown origins
Haesh Rakhi[3]Lamb MenThe Dothraki name for the LhazareenJaqqa rhan[3]Described as the mercy men. Exact translations currently unknown.
Khalakka dothrae[15]The prince is riding
Khalakka dothrae mranha[15]A prince tides inside me
Krazaaj Has[20]Sharp MountainsA Ghiscari city, currently in ruins; the Dothraki name refers to the pyramids that once stood in the city
Krazaaj Zasqa[21][22][23]White MountainsThe Dothraki name for the northern portion of the great mountain chain that divides Essos, more commonly known as the Bones
Khal Rhae Mhar[5]The Sorefoot King
Khal Rhaggat[5]The Cart King
Rakh[15]A boy
Rakh haj[15]A strong boy
Rhaesh Andahli[1][24]The land of the AndalsThe Dothraki name for Westeros
Shierak qiya[8]Bleeding star
Vaes Aresak[25][26]City of CowardsAn Ibbenese town, currently abandoned, originally called Ibbish
Vaes Athjikhari[27]City of SicknessA Sarnori city, currently in ruins, originally called Sallosh, which had also been known as the City of Scholars
Vaes Diaf[28]City of the SkullA Ghiscari city, currently in ruins, originally called Hazdahn Mo
Vaes Efe[29]City of ShacklesA small Ghiscari town, currently in ruins
Vaes Graddakh[30]City of FilthA Sarnori city, currently in ruins, originally called Sarys
Vaes Jini[31]City of GoatsOriginally a city called Yinishar, currently in ruins
Vaes Gorqoyi[32]City of the Blood ChargeOriginally a city called Mardosh, which had also been known as the City of Soldiers
Vaes Khadokh[32][33]City of CorpsesOriginally a Valyrian colony called Essaria, currently in ruins
Vaes Khewo[34]City of WormsA Sarnori city, currently in ruins, originally called Sarnath
Vaes Leisi[35]City of GhostsA formed settlement of the “wood walkers” from the Kingdom of the Ifequevron, currently in ruins
Vaes Leqse[36]City of RatsA Sarnori city, currently in ruins, originally called Gornath
Vaes Mejhah[37]City of WhoresA small Ghiscari town, currently in ruins
Vaes Orvik[38]City of the WhipA small Qartheen city, currently in ruins; the Dothraki name refers to the great number of slaves taken when the city was destroyed.
Vaes Qosar[39]City of SpidersA Qartheen city, currently in ruins, originally called Qolahn
Vaes Shirosi[40]City of ScorpionsA small Qartheen city, currently in ruins
Vaes Tolorro[41]City of BonesAn abandoned city of unknown origin
Vojjor Samvi[42]The Broken GodsA Sarnori city originally called Kasath, which had also been known as the City of Caravans, currently in ruins
Yalli Qamayi[43]Wailing ChildrenA Sarnori city originally called Sathar, which had also been known as the Waterfall City, currently in ruins

 

khal 

 khalasar

drogo

khalakka.[5] 

 ko's.

kos,

khaleesi 

 khas.[3][6][5][7] 

dosh khaleen 

 Vaes Dothrak.[5]

 

 

No the title is not a mispelling haha :)

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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Btw, if your wondering about House Dayne

Names of Yi-ti are very different. There are not enough names known from the lands of Asshai to draw any conclusion. Asshai and Stygai is all i can find for out there. 

The Jogos Nai and Lengii names are also no indication either. 

I have only gone through those and those of the Rhoynar, Andals, and Valyrians of Essos though thus far. 

For now Glydayn is the closest i can find in Westeros but another may pop up.

Edit-

Scratch that, The Reach, Dorne and Westerlands seem to be the places that share this form of spelling.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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6 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Btw, if your wondering about House Dayne, i can find no other examples for this form of spelling. 

Howsabout JORDAYNE? Interestingly the world book has Daynes as FM, Jordaynes as an Andal house (I looked this up before, because I wondered if they were related like Stark/Karstark, but doesn't seem so).

6 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

For now Glydayn is the closest i can find in Westeros but another may pop up.

I would caution against using given names for this, from Martin's hint it looks very much like he was referring just to family/house names. Otherwise you may end up with some crazy stuff about Rhaegar and Aenys Frey :D

Also I think spelling is something that gets decided by whoever first writes down what was previously only spoken: I think this might be why we have the Dayne/Jordayne convergence. As FMs the Daynes wouldn't have written their names before the Andals (including the Jordaynes) brought literacy with them.

 

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7 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Howsabout JORDAYNE? Interestingly the world book has Daynes as FM, Jordaynes as an Andal house (I looked this up before, because I wondered if they were related like Stark/Karstark, but doesn't seem so).

I would caution against using given names for this, from Martin's hint it looks very much like he was referring just to family/house names. Otherwise you may end up with some crazy stuff about Rhaegar and Aenys Frey :D

Also I think spelling is something that gets decided by whoever first writes down what was previously only spoken: I think this might be why we have the Dayne/Jordayne convergence. As FMs the Daynes wouldn't have written their names before the Andals (including the Jordaynes) brought literacy with them.

 

Yea i caught that one after a quick search, so many cultures to search hahah Reach, Dorne, and Westerlands. Couldn't find anything for the Vale, Riverlands, or Storm Lands tho to help verify that it's an Andal spelling. Though that thought had crossed my mind. 

 

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Long Night

Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients—though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands
 
 
This is something i have noticed before though
Edited by AlaskanSandman

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There is also GRRM's quote about Dawn being only a "couple thousand" years old which is interesting, maybe House Dayne is just a big red hearing? Same with Ashara? Intersting though that this House is the only other ones with purple eyes (At least in Ashara, though maybe gained earlier by the Targaryens?)

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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Just now, Rufus Snow said:

Re Westerlands: House Reyne

I wondered about that difference. Perhaps the same as Velaryon, Aerion? Maybe a shift in phonetic spelling over time? Though interesting for the Dothraki to have the Ae 

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17 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There is also GRRM's quote about Dawn being only a "couple thousand" years old

To be honest, he said it 'goes back a couple of thousand years' or similar - the precise words he used didn't rule out that it was older, but to me reads as though he meant it as 'at least two thousand years' not 'ONLY two thousand'

And with all we've been finding re Andals timing, this is safely FM, IMHO.

The eyes: GRRM said not all purple eyes are Valyrian, I think Daynes get that just to be 'noticeable', little more....

Edited by Rufus Snow
ooops, missing a 'two'

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5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I wondered about that difference. Perhaps the same as Velaryon, Aerion? Maybe a shift in phonetic spelling over time? Though interesting for the Dothraki to have the Ae 

If you accept that, you undermine the entire project of analyzing spellings for origins, IMHO. I'd take that as more of an indication that first names don't really come into it - it's the HOUSE names that are telling.

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Re: Dothraki 'ae' - I don't believe Dothraki is written (I may be wrong, without checking....) but most likely, as an Essosi culture, their language would be transcribed by others, and most likely to High Valyrian phonetic rules as that underlies most of the Essosi languages we see (Free Cities, Slaver's Bay...)

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In the real world the Dayne surname is a derivative of the latin dignus meaning worthy or dignified ( going through "d(e)igne, deyn(e), dain(e)" ). Quite fitting for a house that breeds Swords of the Morning. Given GRRM naming logic it would fall in the First Men bucket.

Edited by Tucu

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2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. 

 

In the books there are four houses with names with "ae" in it: Paege (from the Riverlands, and pre-Conquest), Baelsih (from Braavos), Faez and Rhaezn (from Yunkai), Four examples, any of them Valyrian.

Menawhile, we know of four houses of Valyrian descent: Targaryen, Valyrion, Celtigar, and Qoherys. None of them with "ae".

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Maybe slightly veering off course, but very much part of the whole naming issue, we ought to consider what the mountain clans can tell us.

It is generally accepted that the Vale mountain clans are descended from the First Men of the Vale -- as are some of the noble Houses of the Vale. They went their seperate ways following the Andal invasion. However, the tales would have us believe that those FM who became settled Houses (such as the Royces, for a simple example) had surnames back then. (Robar Royce fighting Artys Arryn and all that....) This suggests FM had House names (surnames) before the Andals came.

BUT the Vale clans who did not bend the knee to the Andals now have clan names, and follow the old style once common in Celtic (and no doubt other) societies: "Son, son of Father, of the clan Whatever"

WHY should such a naming convention evolve where there had previously been a Forename-Surname system? We know the Northern mountain clans (more respectable and civilised than those in the Vale) do hold to a Forename-Surname system, blurring the distinction between a clan name and House name.

Beyond the Wall, though, the wildlings seem to stick to a Personal Name-Epithet system (Tormund Giantsbane, Ryk Longspear, Raymun Redbeard...) - which is even more basic than the Vale clansmen, and again their roots lie with the same FM that formed the northern Houses, and the northern mountain clans. The only wildling exceptions I can think of are Mance Rayder (which is an epithet evolving from raider) and the family of Gerrick Kingsblood. "Gerrick of House Redbeard, King of the Wildlings."

So, on the one hand we have all the 'First Men' Houses with their House names going back to the dawn of time, yet the First Men who seem to have much less (or no) contact with Andals and descended from the very same FM society, don't have House Names... that is inconsistent. So what is the genuine, traditional FM naming system, and how and when did it change?

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1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

In the books there are four houses with names with "ae" in it: Paege (from the Riverlands, and pre-Conquest), Baelsih (from Braavos), Faez and Rhaezn (from Yunkai), Four examples, any of them Valyrian.

Menawhile, we know of four houses of Valyrian descent: Targaryen, Valyrion, Celtigar, and Qoherys. None of them with "ae".

Paege ill have to look up, Baelish i've already mentioned.

Faez and Rhaezn from Yunkai dont count, they dont speak Ghiscari, the tongue is dead. They speak a bastard Valyrian, so it would make sense that modern Ghiscari would have names spelled with Ae. If it's not ancient, it doesn't count.

And what? That last sentence makes no sense. You are aware of the vowel sound Ae represent right? It not being present in those last names means nothing, other than the sound doesn't appear in those names, like Aegon, Jaehaerys, Aenor, ect.

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59 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

 

You hit me with alot haha your methodology may be right as far as surnames go, but i think id have to disagree. As pointed out above, when the name is being applied is important. So the fact that some one in their modern times has a name like Aeron Damphire. After the Conquest so a no brainer as to why he would have that sort of name. If you can find an account of an Iron Born in the Dawn age or Age of Heroes, then it would be more credible.

The only reason i trust the wildling names (Aside from Bael) is cause they are and have been cut off from every body this whole time.

As far as the Dothraki, if you apply that logic, then every one in Westeros should have the same spelling for their names irregardless of FM origins or Andal origin. Only difference should be Valyrian and Rhoynish. So, Bael, Dayne, Stane, should all be spelled one way. There not though. I think GRRM reserved the names to hold true to what he said in the quotes.

 

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4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There is also GRRM's quote about Dawn being only a "couple thousand" years old which is interesting, maybe House Dayne is just a big red hearing? Same with Ashara? Intersting though that this House is the only other ones with purple eyes (At least in Ashara, though maybe gained earlier by the Targaryens?)

The Daynes, Valaryons, Celtigars, and Targaryans are all of Valaryian descente from old Valaryian blood which explains the purple eyes BUT members of house Hightower are NOT of Valaryian blood and yet some have purple eyes as well? I think house Hightower are hiding something BIG in that Hightower of theirs. 

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1 minute ago, Stormking902 said:

The Daynes, Valaryons, Celtigars, and Targaryans are all of Valaryian descente from old Valaryian blood which explains the purple eyes BUT members of house Hightower are NOT of Valaryian blood and yet some have purple eyes as well? I think house Hightower are hiding something BIG in that Hightower of theirs. 

I think you meant Dayne but i understand you :) Yea that's a hotly debated one. At least i dont recall any Hightowers with purple eyes

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1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

The Daynes, Valaryons, Celtigars, and Targaryans are all of Valaryian descente

The Daynes are NOT Valyrian, the George has said so :thumbsup: but, yeah, the Hightowers are hiding a lot, I'm sure....

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

As far as the Dothraki, if you apply that logic, then every one in Westeros should have the same spelling for their names irregardless of FM origins or Andal origin. Only difference should be Valyrian and Rhoynish. So, Bael, Dayne, Stane, should all be spelled one way. There not though. I think GRRM reserved the names to hold true to what he said in the quotes.

Not quite sure I follow you here... Westerosi scribes could be deliberately discriminating between different origins when deciding how to spell names (especially their own ;)), but the illiterate Dothraki will be subject to what spellings others choose for them, and it's not likely to be Westerosi scribes trying to make sense of Dothraki words in the first place. And I assume everything about Essos has also been translated into the 'Common Tongue' before we as readers get to see it, so further complications...

If only GRRM had invented whole new languages and scripts like JRRT :D

Edited by Rufus Snow

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55 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

The Daynes, Valaryons, Celtigars, and Targaryans are all of Valaryian descente from old Valaryian blood which explains the purple eyes BUT members of house Hightower are NOT of Valaryian blood and yet some have purple eyes as well? I think house Hightower are hiding something BIG in that Hightower of theirs. 

George said that purple eyes ARE NOT exclusive to the Valyrians, and seems to disregard the notion that the Daynes are of Valyrian descent.

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