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What's in a naem? (Bael and Hardhome? Bolton's and Faceless Men?)

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8 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Soooo, the next question is whether the use of such a name is meant to make us think Bael is not real, or that he is a foreigner stirring up the wildlings?

This is the next point thrown out right, he's just a legend. So this swings me back to a couple things. 

Firstly on naming Ae. Why? Ygritte is verbally telling the tale. Presumably Jon knows of the tale simply because he's heard a song? It's still not documented at Winterfell? Plus the tale Jon knows is different than Ygritte. Ok

Qhorin knows Ygritte's version cause he knew Mance, who learned it presumably while north right?

So why is Bael being written about at the Citadel by Yandel? Yandel is not Valyrian so far as we know so no reason to be throwing that spelling around casually. No reason to presume that Bael is Valyrian, especially since Yandel goes on to doubt the validity of the tale as its not recorded in Winterfell. Except Jon knows the tale, just not Ygrittes version.

But, why does Yandel know Ygritte's version?????  O.o

Edited by AlaskanSandman
so many typos

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3 minutes ago, dmfn said:

Lannister may not come from Andals since it was a first name: Lann the Clever.

That is an interesting point as GRRM list them as Andals. Though one legend of Lann is that he's the son of an Andal adventurer, or an andal him self.

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16 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Soooo, the next question is whether the use of such a name is meant to make us think Bael is not real, or that he is a foreigner stirring up the wildlings?

Assuming Elio isn't messing with me, Bael is pre-Targaryen....

 

Only other possible thought, is Hardhome and Valyria taking Dragonstone that same century. 

 

Was Bael a Valyrian from 600 years ago that went rogue and tried to conquer westeros starting from the North? O.o

 

Other wise Targaryen times around Jaehaerys makes more sense.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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I was close.

 

 

 

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon III

"Wildlings have invaded the realm before." Jon had heard the tales from Old Nan and Maester Luwin both, back at Winterfell. "Raymun Redbeard led them south in the time of my grandfather's grandfather, and before him there was a king named Bael the Bard."

"Aye, and long before them came the Horned Lord and the brother kings Gendel and Gorne, and in ancient days Joramun, who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. Each man of them broke his strength on the Wall, or was broken by the power of Winterfell on the far side

 

 

Raymund Red Beard, and Before him, Bael the Bard.

To which Qorhin agrees, and responds by finishing the list for us.

"and long before them came the Horned Lord and the brother kings Gendel and Gorne, and in ancient days Joramun"

So the order of Kings Beyond the Wall working back wards goes

Mance Rayder

Raymund Red Beard

Bael the Bard

The Horned Lord

Gendel and Gorne

Joramun.

Now we can date many of these to rough time frames as well 

  Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

"Aye," said Ygritte. "Together with his brother Gendel, three thousand years ago. They led a host o' free folk through the caves, and the Watch was none the wiser. But when they come out, the wolves o' Winterfell fell upon them."
 
 
  Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Wall and Beyond: The Wildlings

The brothers Gendel and Gorne were joint kings three thousand years ago. Leading their host down beneath the earth into a labyrinth of twisting subterranean caverns, they passed beneath the Wall unseen to attack the North. Gorne slew the Stark king in battle, then was killed in turn by the king's heir, and Gendel and his remaining wildlings fled back to their caverns, never to been seen again.
The Horned Lord would follow them, a thousand years after (or perhaps two). His name is lost to history, but he was said to have used sorcery to pass the Wall. After him, centuries later, came Bael the Bard, 
 
So aside from Jon and Qorhin discussing it, we have the Maesters confirming the order for us, while providing a date for the Horned Lord.
 
We know Mance is in 300Ac  and we know that Raymund Red Beard was in 226Ac.
 
So thus we can determine the list as such.
 
Mance Rayder                   - 300Ac
 
Raymund Red Beard         - 226 Ac
 
Bael the Bard                     - Some time after Andals but before Targaryens? 13-1400BC or 500-400Bc?
 
And Long before them.
 
The Horned Lord               - 1700Bc or 700 Bc (only centuries before Bael)
 
Gendle and Gorne           - 2700Bc
 
And In Ancient Days.
 
Joramun                            - Unknown.
 
 
As you can see though, aside from the tale of Ygritte, we have confirmation of the Order of the Kings Beyond the Wall from both Jon, Qorhin, and a Maester. 
 
Edit- Addittion
  Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

Jon had never heard this tale before. "Which Brandon was this supposed to be? Brandon the Builder lived in the Age of Heroes, thousands of years before Bael. There was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright, but—"

"This was Brandon the Daughterless," Ygritte said sharply. "Would you hear the tale, or no?"

He scowled. "Go on."

 

  Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

He looked at the passing faces and the tales came back to him. The maester had told him the stories, and Old Nan had made them come alive. "That one is Jon Stark. When the sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle at White Harbor. His son was Rickard Stark, not my father's father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter. Theon Stark's the real thin one with the long hair and the skinny beard. They called him the 'Hungry Wolf,' because he was always at war. That's a Brandon, the tall one with the dreamy face, he was Brandon the Shipwright, because he loved the sea. His tomb is empty. He tried to sail west across the Sunset Sea and was never seen again. His son was Brandon the Burner, because he put the torch to all his father's ships in grief. There's Rodrik Stark, who won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts.And that's Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. He was the last King in the North and the first Lord of Winterfell, after he yielded to Aegon the Conqueror. Oh, there, he's Cregan Stark. He fought with Prince Aemon once, and the Dragonknight said he'd never faced a finer swordsman." They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

Brandon the Burner is shortly before Aegon Targaryen Conquered Westeros.

Wyman agrees with me.

 

  Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran II

"We have had no strength at sea for hundreds of years, since Brandon the Burner put the torch to his father's ships. Grant me the gold and within the year I will float you sufficient galleys to take Dragonstone and King's Landing both."

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2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Only other possible thought, is Hardhome and Valyria taking Dragonstone that same century. 

Maybe this gives a clue:

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Wall and Beyond: The Wildlings

Hardhome was once the only settlement approaching a town in the lands beyond the Wall, sheltered on Storrold's Point and commanding a deepwater harbor. But six hundred years ago, it was burned and its people destroyed, though the Watch cannot say for a certainty what happened. Some say that cannibals from Skagos fell on them, others that slavers from across the narrow sea were at fault. The strangest stories, from a ship of the Watch sent to investigate, tell of hideous screams echoing down from the cliffs above Hardhome, where no living man or woman could be found.

A most fascinating account of Hardhome can be found in Maester Wyllis's Hardhome: An Account of Three Years Spent Beyond-the-Wall among Savages, Raiders, and Woodswitches. Wyllis journeyed to Hardhome on a Pentoshi trader and established himself there as a healer and counselor so that he might write of their customs. He was given the protection of Gorm the Wolf—a chieftain who shared control of Hardhome with three other chiefs. When Gorm was murdered in a drunken brawl, however, Wyllis found himself in mortal danger and made his way back to Oldtown. There he set down his account, only to vanish the year after the illuminations were done. It was said in the Citadel that he was last seen at the docks, looking for a ship that would take him to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea.

 

Yandel aslo talks of accounts based on reports from Rangers, so some stories get down to the Citadel.

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1 minute ago, Rufus Snow said:

Maybe this gives a clue:

Yandel aslo talks of accounts based on reports from Rangers, so some stories get down to the Citadel.

True... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Big hmmmmmmmmmmmm

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2 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Maybe this gives a clue:

Yandel aslo talks of accounts based on reports from Rangers, so some stories get down to the Citadel.

We do know that Hardhome was mysteriously burned down though completely like Lorath, and Valyria took dragon stone that same century. So still interesting.

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I thought there was also a maester who collected wildling songs, but may have mis-remumbled that one :dunno:

Gotta go for now, need to visit Earth today :thumbsup:

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5 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Maybe this gives a clue:

Yandel aslo talks of accounts based on reports from Rangers, so some stories get down to the Citadel.

Also doesnt explain the use of Ae. Its Valyrian. Why is GRRM in ACOK and Yandel in TWOIAF using it? A Maester should know better and not imply possibly (Depending on when written) that their Valyrian over lords also had a rogue who was King beyond the wall

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Not sure if it's related but there is always this too.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon VI

Maester Aemon paused, washcloth in hand. "The Horn of Winter is an ancient legend. Does the King-beyond-the-Wall truly believe that such a thing exists?"

"They all do," said Jon. "Ygritte said they opened a hundred graves . . . graves of kings and heroes, all over the valley of the Milkwater, but they never . . ."

"Who is Ygritte?" Donal Noye asked pointedly

 

 

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There's also this passage.

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.
Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a driftof dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.
"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.


 

 
When did the Starks change in appearance? and could maybe the woman with white hair be Valyrian? He doesn't mention the woman being old.

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If Brandon the Shipwright is the son of Theon Stark, that would explain his actions. Emboldened by his father who sailed to Andalos and killed a bunch of Andals, or the last of them. 

The Shipwright Builds a larger fleet, sails east, but then is lost at sea.

Brandon the Burner, in a very childish and child like move, burns their entire fleet. 

I imagine if Bael did exist, this would be a really good time to attack the North, as the Andals are now possibly out of the way, and the Starks are else where and possibly ruled by a child while father set sail before being confirmed lost.

Could Brandon the Burner be Brandon the Daughterless? 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

There was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright, but—"

"This was Brandon the Daughterless," Ygritte said sharply. "Would you hear the tale, or no?"

 

Wonder what Jon was going to say.

Edit_

    Wonder if this is how Brandon the Shipwright was lost at sea.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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Bael is called a coward by the then Lord Stark. Could this be because that Current Lord is Brandon the Burner and Bael burned down his father and his fleet with him. 

Brandon the Shipwright sailing to Essos strikes me of the actions of a young ambitious man. Could he have left for Essos after only siring one son thus far, then dying. Leaving the Burner and only child, who went on to only have a daughter(s).

 

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2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Could Brandon the Burner be Brandon the Daughterless? 

He seems to be the next viable named Brandon, so far... given Ran's point about him being pre-Conquest.

What I don't get, if Bran the Shipwright sailed all his ships off west across the Sunset Sea and never returned - what ships exactly did the Burner burn? I mean either BtS didn't take them all, or some did return for there to be any left to burn...

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My impression is that "ae" is intended to be a written spelling [mostly] unique to Valyrian(s), rather than to represent a sound that is unique to Valyrian(s). We can see that GRRM uses the same sound he uses for "ae" () in names like Aegon that he uses in names of families, people, and places where the spelling uses "ei," "ey," "ai," "ay," "a," and perhaps others. For example:

Aemon
Cersei 
Frey
Jaime 
Rayder (as in Mance)
Vhagar

As it concerns the spelling of Bael, in world, unless Bael himself was literate, he is unlikely to have known or passed down such a spelling of his name. And it seems unlikely that that Free Folk have passed down a written tradition of how the name is spelled. It is more likely that the sound of the name has been passed down orally, and that the spelling Bael represents a transliteration that was chosen by a literate person upon hearing it and writing it down.

The question, then, is why that person chose to transliterate it using the typically Valyrian "ae" spelling rather than with one of the various other spellings more common in Westeros such as Beil, Beyl, Bail, Bayl, or Bale.

Perhaps other traditions identified Bael as having Valyrian ancestry or some Valyiran connection we are unaware of. Perhaps the person responsible for choosing the popular transliteration of the name Bael himself came from a Valyrian background, and used a spelling that was more familiar to them as a result of their own biases. It is hard to say, but I think it is highly unlikely that the spelling Bael comes down from Bael or the Free Folk themselves.

 

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I don't think we have any good reason to believe Bael didn't exist, whether or not all the stories about him are true, or accurate. I think it is probably pretty safe to say he lived somewhere between 1500-300 years ago. IIRC, a pretty convincing case has been made for Theon Stark living within the last 2,000 years, and Brandon the Burner within the last 1,000, but I don't recall by whom, or in which thread(s).

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6 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

My impression is that "ae" is intended to be a written spelling [mostly] unique to Valyrian(s), rather than to represent a sound that is unique to Valyrian(s). We can see that GRRM uses the same sound he uses for "ae" () in names like Aegon that he uses in names of families, people, and places where the spelling uses "ei," "ey," "ai," "ay," "a," and perhaps others. For example:

Aemon
Cersei 
Frey
Jaime 
Rayder (as in Mance)
Vhagar

As it concerns the spelling of Bael, in world, unless Bael himself was literate, he is unlikely to have known or passed down such a spelling of his name. And it seems unlikely that that Free Folk have passed down a written tradition of how the name is spelled. It is more likely that the sound of the name has been passed down orally, and that the spelling Bael represents a transliteration that was chosen by a literate person upon hearing it and writing it down.

The question, then, is why that person chose to transliterate it using the typically Valyrian "ae" spelling rather than with one of the various other spellings more common in Westeros such as Beil, Beyl, Bail, Bayl, or Bale.

Perhaps other traditions identified Bael as having Valyrian ancestry or some Valyiran connection we are unaware of. Perhaps the person responsible for choosing the popular transliteration of the name Bael himself came from a Valyrian background, and used a spelling that was more familiar to them as a result of their own biases. It is hard to say, but I think it is highly unlikely that the spelling Bael comes down from Bael or the Free Folk themselves.

 

Well, i go in circles on this because what are runes? They're writable by Quill, or chisel. So from all accounts, the first men did have a writing system. Why it's treated like it's inferior is odd. Our own writing uses old symbols of Germanic runes. X V W I ect. 

Since we are told though (Or it's implied) that Bael is an oral tradition. It would seem to fall on our Authur and the Maesters. If the Maester who visited Hardhome did it after the Targaryens arrived it is odd to imply. The Window between Valyria taking dragon stone to Targaryens taking it is only 200 years, but why is there a Valyrian at the Citadel before the Targaryens? Unless the Maester was Valyrian and using it out of cultural preference. Which is even odder imo. Why only apply it to Bael then? 

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8 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

He seems to be the next viable named Brandon, so far... given Ran's point about him being pre-Conquest.

What I don't get, if Bran the Shipwright sailed all his ships off west across the Sunset Sea and never returned - what ships exactly did the Burner burn? I mean either BtS didn't take them all, or some did return for there to be any left to burn...

Hmmm, that is an interesting question. Maybe he took all the war galleys but they had a couple smaller vessels? Not sure on that one. 

If Bael is in that time though, and skipped down a K.R. then im assuming the K.R. was originally created by the North and inspired Jaehaerys? Would make sense for the Kings of Winter to have a road leading them to their wall though and Castle Black.  

I've ruled out the cache at the Fist of the First men (Dragon glass, Dragonstone), but doesnt appear to be that old and probably left by Benjen or Coldhands. 

The Commanders and Snow Gate and Nightfort feuding and killing the L.C. during this same time may be connected though as it happens the same century. Osric Stark is either the Stark they killed at the end of his 60 year reign, or Osric died shortly before all this.

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I can't help but feel Val and Alysanne are some how still tied to this picture. Obviously pieces from later times, but a part of the story no less. 

"You know nothing"

I doubt Bael stopped at having one child though

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8 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:
6 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

 

 

Quote

 

Harlon Stark was a King in the North, Lord of Winterfell, and head of House Stark.

Hundreds of years ago, House Bolton rose up against the Starks. Harlon laid siege to the Dreadfort for two years to starve them out.[1]

 

We know it was no more than 1000 years ago, and 7-800 tends to get lumped into 1000 years ago.

Bolton's flaying Starks any one?

I wonder how House Bolton would feel, if they wed a daughter to a Stark lord they later found out to be a wildling?

 

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