Northern Lords declaring for Stannis then refusing to march south

[Ellard Stark]

The Battle in the Ice is perhaps one the best written plot setup we have to look forward to. And I eagerly cannot wait. But with all the possibilities and variables on the table, but in the end, With no supernatural events occurring(dragons, ice zombies, ned's stark head being reattached, etc), the Northerners will look at Stannis and be like "u cray its 20 foot blizzard out here and we can't see 3 foot front of us and you want us to march south all the way to KL with you"?

[Lord Varys]

Stannis has no intention to march to KL at this point.

[Blackfish Tully]

1 hour ago, Ellard Stark said:

The Battle in the Ice is perhaps one the best written plot setup we have to look forward to. And I eagerly cannot wait. But with all the possibilities and variables on the table, but in the end, With no supernatural events occurring(dragons, ice zombies, ned's stark head being reattached, etc), the Northerners will look at Stannis and be like "u cray its 20 foot blizzard out here and we can't see 3 foot front of us and you want us to march south all the way to KL with you"?

the next step if they defeat Roose Bolton would be going to the Riverlands for revenge on the Freys  and Stannis should have zero problem convincing the Northern Lords to go there for some payback. 

[Stormking902]

16 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

the next step if they defeat Roose Bolton would be going to the Riverlands for revenge on the Freys  and Stannis should have zero problem convincing the Northern Lords to go there for some payback. 

Why would Stannis care about revenge on the Freys when IF he wins the battle of ice he pretty much cripples the Freys AND he has WAY bigger fish to fry in the form of the WW who are currently marching South trying to make long night 2.0 a reality. 

[Blackfish Tully]

6 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Why would Stannis care about revenge on the Freys when IF he wins the battle of ice he pretty much cripples the Freys AND he has WAY bigger fish to fry in the form of the WW who are currently marching South trying to make long night 2.0 a reality. 

It's not Stannis that cares about revenge on the Freys but he knows that it would be the easiest way to get the Northern Lords to go south . Pretty much every major House in the North lost men at the Red Wedding so they will be chomping at the bit to get payback so Stannis will not even have to work to convince them to go South all he has to do is remind them about the Red Wedding and they will be begging him to lead them to the Twins . 

[Stormking902]

44 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

It's not Stannis that cares about revenge on the Freys but he knows that it would be the easiest way to get the Northern Lords to go south . Pretty much every major House in the North lost men at the Red Wedding so they will be chomping at the bit to get payback so Stannis will not even have to work to convince them to go South all he has to do is remind them about the Red Wedding and they will be begging him to lead them to the Twins . 

Yes but why would Stannis march South is my question? The enemy is further North in the form of the WW, wasting time and man power marching South for the Freys is a waste of time they just dont have.  Sure the Northern lords want revenge but that can wait when the fate of the world lies on your enemy to the North. 

[Blackfish Tully]

1 minute ago, Stormking902 said:

Yes but why would Stannis march South is my question? The enemy is further North in the form of the WW, wasting time and man power marching South for the Freys is a waste of time they just dont have.  Sure the Northern lords want revenge but that can wait when the fate of the world lies on your enemy to the North. 

I'm assuming that Stannis's thinking would be that to fight the WW he needs to unify Westeros so he would be marching South for that goal and he would be using the Northern Lord's need for revenge as a way to get them South and then after they defeat the Freys he would be expecting the Riverlords to bend the knee and join him on a march to Kings Landing . Whether that will all work or not who knows but that would be his goal. 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

3 hours ago, Ellard Stark said:

The Battle in the Ice is perhaps one the best written plot setup we have to look forward to. And I eagerly cannot wait. But with all the possibilities and variables on the table, but in the end, With no supernatural events occurring(dragons, ice zombies, ned's stark head being reattached, etc), the Northerners will look at Stannis and be like "u cray its 20 foot blizzard out here and we can't see 3 foot front of us and you want us to march south all the way to KL with you"?

South to KL - no way.

South to Winterfell, they'll go for revenge on Bolton.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

I don't think Stannis is planning on marching South anyway is he? Now that he knows about the Others, and because he believes he's Azor Ahai reborn, I thought once he defeats the Boltons he was going back to the Wall to plan for the Long Night 2.0. 

[Tagganaro]

This has always been the issue with Stannis and what he actually wants being in conflict with what his duty is.  Stannis wants the Throne and thinks he deserves it, even with the threat of the Others I can't see Stannis not wanting to march South to KL.  The issue is there's no actual way to accomplish this- the Northern Lords are not gonna follow him south again.  While revenge on the Freys is certainly desired, I have trouble seeing how Stannis can even get the Northern Lords to march to the Twins- that would be a costly seige/attack, and with the losses already mounted on the Northmen I can't even see the Northern Lords agreeing to this.  Stannis only has the Northmen because of "Arya's" rescue and removing the Boltons from Winterfell- I cannot foresee any loyalty lasting beyond that especially if Stannis is demanding the Northmen march south to help him take the Iron Throne, which I think Stannis will certainly attempt to do.  

To me this is the narrative issue with the Battle of Ice- Stannis losing is a much cleaner narrative as you don't have to deal with all this and you could have some combination of Stark children defeating the Boltons and then turning their attention North, which is probably more fulfilling emotionally too as readers of this series.  

[LindsayLohan]

Stannis has openly taken the Nightfort as his seat.  He intends to garrison the fort with his own men, his queen is en route to the castle (and it's a legit castle).  Stannis is not going to march south.  When he learns of the assassination of Jon Snow, he's going to settle the Watch once and for all.

[Kandrax]

If Stannis decides to conquer Twins, he can do it without siege. He can just use Big Walder and his men disguised as Frey soldiers as Trojan horse.

[Blackfish Tully]

5 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

I don't think Stannis is planning on marching South anyway is he? Now that he knows about the Others, and because he believes he's Azor Ahai reborn, I thought once he defeats the Boltons he was going back to the Wall to plan for the Long Night 2.0. 

Wouldn't make more sense for Stannis to go South and win the iron Throne and have the full might of the armies of Westeros behind him (well over 100,000 potential soldiers ) instead of fighting the WW with 10 to 15 thousand Northerners  and his men . 

[Blackfish Tully]

5 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

This has always been the issue with Stannis and what he actually wants being in conflict with what his duty is.  Stannis wants the Throne and thinks he deserves it, even with the threat of the Others I can't see Stannis not wanting to march South to KL.  The issue is there's no actual way to accomplish this- the Northern Lords are not gonna follow him south again.  While revenge on the Freys is certainly desired, I have trouble seeing how Stannis can even get the Northern Lords to march to the Twins- that would be a costly seige/attack, and with the losses already mounted on the Northmen I can't even see the Northern Lords agreeing to this.  Stannis only has the Northmen because of "Arya's" rescue and removing the Boltons from Winterfell- I cannot foresee any loyalty lasting beyond that especially if Stannis is demanding the Northmen march south to help him take the Iron Throne, which I think Stannis will certainly attempt to do.  

 

have you read ADWD ? the Northmen are crazy and frankly all the men dying on Stannis's march to Winterfell are Southerners and also it's not as cold or snowy down South so it would be a vacation for the Northmen .  . Also  Stannis will not have to demand they go South with him instead they will demand that Stannis leads them to the Riverlands for revenge on the Freys .

 

Ser Corliss Penny gave the clan chief an incredulous look. "Do you want to die, Wull?"

That seemed to amuse the northman. "I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter.

"Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue."

[Lord Varys]

A march down to deal with the Freys could make some sense, but that would depend on the losses they all suffer at the village and at Winterfell, and how bad winter will be by then - not to mention what happens in the Riverlands in the meantime. Catelyn and the Riverlords might deal with the Freys in the meantime.

But there is no chance that Stannis makes any attempt to win the Iron Throne with 5,000+ men. That would be ridiculous, especially in winter. Not to mention that he clearly intends to man the castles at the Wall and continue the war there once he has restored order in the North.

[Rufus Snow]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

A march down to deal with the Freys could make some sense, but that would depend on the losses they all suffer at the village and in at Winterfell, and how bad winter will be by then - not to mention what happens in the Riverlands in the meantime. Catelyn and the Riverlords might deal with the Freys in the meantime.

But there is no chance that Stannis makes any attempt to win the Iron Throne with 5,000+ men. That would be ridiculous, especially in winter. Not to mention that he clearly intends to man the castles at the Wall and continue the war there once he has restored order in the North.

This. I suspect the Freys will be dealt with before Stannis could get there, anyway.

But he has no intention of going south. People mistake Stannis - he does not want the throne. It is his duty to take it, as he sees it, but saving the kingdom must come first.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

"I am no lord, sire. You came because we sent for you, I hope. Though I could not say why you took so long about it."

Surprisingly, Stannis smiled at that. "You're bold enough to be a Stark. Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." Stannis pointed north. "There is where I'll find the foe that I was born to fight."

"His name may not be spoken," Melisandre added softly. "He is the God of Night and Terror, Jon Snow, and these shapes in the snow are his creatures."

Even if it takes all winter to save the kingdom, the throne will have to wait 'til spring...

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

But he has no intention of going south. People mistake Stannis - he does not want the throne. It is his duty to take it, as he sees it, but saving the kingdom must come first.

Just saying - he should have thought about that before he let his brother the king die, and before he arranged the murder of his other brother.

A man who was truly loath to take the throne would have never done what Stannis did to get the throne. He would have been perfectly fine with Renly taking the throne in his place.

2 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Even if it takes all winter to save the kingdom, the throne will have to wait 'til spring...

I agree with that, but mostly because there is no chance that the man can wage a campaign for the Iron Throne in winter. That's not going to work. Even if there were no Others this would not work.

[Bernie Mac]

10 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

the next step if they defeat Roose Bolton would be going to the Riverlands for revenge on the Freys  and Stannis should have zero problem convincing the Northern Lords to go there for some payback. 

bit of a risk, considering Stannis is trying to protect the Wall. A six month (at least) journey to the Twins and back is a pointless quest considering taking the Twins would need an army much larger than 20k and supplies to feed an army that large. 

 

The Freys are not going anywhere vengeance can wait till summer, but the idea that the remaining Northern army is going to abandon the North with thousands of wildlings on the wrong side of the wall makes little sense

[Rufus Snow]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Just saying - he should have thought about that before he let his brother the king die, and before he arranged the murder of his other brother. 

I can't disagree there, and I think he gets that now, with his comment about Davos reminding him of his duties. He moved too slowly to save Robert and his reign, that's for sure, and I don't want to launch an 'execution of Renly was spot on' thread

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A man who was truly loath to take the throne would have never done what Stannis did to get the throne. He would have been perfectly fine with Renly taking the throne in his place. 

But this I can't agree with. So far as Stannis was concerned, he was Robert's lawful heir. He would never be fine with passing it over to Renly. Sure, he could abdicate in favour of Renly, but to Stannis that would be an unjustifiable dereliction of duty (even if he could see how much better it may have been for the realm at large...).

It's just another example of what Donal Noye said: Stannis is iron, and will break before bending. Stannis' personality is all about inflexibility, IMHO, and now he's made his mind up that his enemy is to the north, he won't be going any further south than he has to to protect his back. Helping the northmen avenge 'Ned's little girl' will bind them to him, and bring over the waverers if Bolton is seen to be broken. Whether he can then get them to join forces with Jon/Tormund's wildlings against the Others is another question altogether....

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

I can't disagree there, and I think he gets that now, with his comment about Davos reminding him of his duties. He moved too slowly to save Robert and his reign, that's for sure, and I don't want to launch an 'execution of Renly was spot on' thread

He didn't move at all to save the fat drunkard. He just sat there and waited.

7 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

But this I can't agree with. So far as Stannis was concerned, he was Robert's lawful heir. He would never be fine with passing it over to Renly. Sure, he could abdicate in favour of Renly, but to Stannis that would be an unjustifiable dereliction of duty (even if he could see how much better it may have been for the realm at large...).

If you don't want to do a duty, then you don't have to. You cannot be forced to take a crown upon your head in this world. It wasn't Stannis' duty to challenge his nephew Joffrey, insisting that a belief he had no proof for was 'the truth', nor was it his duty to kill or challenge Renly. A man who truly did not want the crown wouldn't have taken it. He would have been glad that Renly wanted to be king.

The idea that the man has some strange 'duty' to step in for his brother under all circumstances is just more than a little over the top.

One can buy Stannis' explanation that he never actually tried to take the crown by means of plotting or murder or anything like that - but he is not honest to Davos or himself when he says he doesn't want that crown. He might not like all the stupid things that come with kingship, but very much likes finally being the guy in charge. The one who can force the world to do what he wants, for a change.

Not to mention he also knows his brother was a usurper. While there are still Targaryens out there, his own claim is as flimsy as that of Robert, yet he still insists the law is on his side, etc. when 'the law' definitely didn't make Robert king - nor Joffrey or Renly.

7 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

It's just another example of what Donal Noye said: Stannis is iron, and will break before bending. Stannis' personality is all about inflexibility, IMHO, and now he's made his mind up that his enemy is to the north, he won't be going any further south than he has to to protect his back. Helping the northmen avenge 'Ned's little girl' will bind them to him, and bring over the waverers if Bolton is seen to be broken. Whether he can then get them to join forces with Jon/Tormund's wildlings against the Others is another question altogether....

If he wins, the Northmen should be his. And Stannis is not the kind of guy who is not going to force them in line. They will do as he commands should he win. And one hopes he finally gives some speech then along the lines - 'I don't give a rat's ass about your petty struggles and ambitions. I don't care about you, your families, or your winter provisions. There are ice demons up there. You will give me your men and we will defeat those creatures together or die in the attempt. (Somebody hand me the salt. I need more salt in my ridiculously cold ice water.)'