GRRM Already Told Us the Tower of Joy Backstory: Wrong Joy, No Hiding, and Fight Elsewhere.

[Seams]

On 9/17/2018 at 10:53 AM, Sly Wren said:

A fair point. Personally, I think Ice is a stand-in for the "Stark sword of legend"--Dawn: the sword I think was taken from the Night's King when he abused his power. 

I've also likes others' arguments that Ice was split in two in a literary reference to the Last Hero's sword breaking--thus making it so he needs another better one.

But I would love it if Ice gets back to the Starks.

All that said: Ice or any other sword doesn't innately bestow identity. In the novels, only one sword can only be wielded by one family and only by one worthy in the family: Dawn. It fits with what Jon has dreamed of since he was a kid: doing great deeds, earning the greatsword by worthiness, and then being called by his father's name. 

Your points here are combining with other thoughts in my mind.

Even though the ownership of Dawn is apparently recognized as exclusively Dayne in nature, it seems as if most named swords are associated with a single family. They aren't forfeited at tournaments, they are not sold (even to an important man like Tywin) and are known to be picked up by an heir from the same family or returned to the original family as a matter of honor after a battle. The exception is among the Ironborn, with their tradition of paying the iron price and taking spoils from battle fields. They have no reservations about taking named swords from their original owners and keeping them.

Yet Ser Ilyn Payne used the Stark family sword Ice to behead Ned Stark. Of course Joffrey and GRRM love irony. Joffrey commented that Viserys dying from molten gold was like a dragon (gold coin) killing a Targaryen; he imagined wolves killing Robb Stark. So it probably amused him that Ned would die by his own sword.

It wasn't just any executioner who used the Stark blade; the man who wielded the sword was Ser Ilyn Payne. My earlier musings linked him to Arthur Dayne because of the rhyming surnames but also the white / silver sword: the Dayne sigil includes a white sword (presumably Dawn) and Ser Ilyn carries a silver sword at Joffrey's wedding feast, providing it to Joffrey for the cutting of the pigeon pie.

Ser Ilyn's title is The King's Justice. Long ago I speculated that the sword Ice was originally called Justice - perhaps a companion blade to the sword Truth. So there's something going on with the specific person of Ilyn Payne and the sword Ice but, at the same time, the silver sword (also distinctive because it is covered with runes).

Is there any chance that Ser Ilyn's silver sword is Dawn? No one has mentioned that the Dayne sword was stolen or out of place, and its last known location was Starfall, after Ned left the Tower of Joy. If your speculation is correct, that the ancient, original sword Ice is the sword Dawn, then Joffrey would have used the sword Ice to slice the pie that killed him. (I realize the piece he ate came from a different pie and the one with the birds was symbolic.) As I said earlier, GRRM loves irony.

But Payne is not the same as Dayne, in spite of the rhyme. I can't explain why Ser Ilyn would have the Dayne family sword. Ser Ilyn is, in some ways, Tywin Lannister's direwolf - very loyal and, like Jon Snow's direwolf, silent. When Tywin dies, Jaime liberates Ser Ilyn from his dungeon cell (the King's Justice and jailkeeper lived like a prisoner) and takes him to the Riverlands and a sparring partner and confidant. Originally, Ser Arthur Dayne had been a mentor to Jaime. Now Ser Ilyn is filling a similar role.

Are we all 100% sure that Arthur died at the Tower of Joy? I know Ser Ilyn's tongue was cut out by King Aerys - or so we are told. Arthur Dayne could not have had a conversation with Ned at the Tower of Joy if he was the same person as Ser Ilyn and had already had his tongue cut out. Maybe they are just parallel, echo characters, not the same guy.

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, Seams said:

Your points here are combining with other thoughts in my mind.

Even though the ownership of Dawn is apparently recognized as exclusively Dayne in nature, it seems as if most named swords are associated with a single family. They aren't forfeited at tournaments, they are not sold (even to an important man like Tywin) and are known to be picked up by an heir from the same family or returned to the original family as a matter of honor after a battle. The exception is among the Ironborn, with their tradition of paying the iron price and taking spoils from battle fields. They have no reservations about taking named swords from their original owners and keeping them.

Yet Ser Ilyn Payne used the Stark family sword Ice to behead Ned Stark. Of course Joffrey and GRRM love irony. Joffrey commented that Viserys dying from molten gold was like a dragon (gold coin) killing a Targaryen; he imagined wolves killing Robb Stark. So it probably amused him that Ned would die by his own sword.

It wasn't just any executioner who used the Stark blade; the man who wielded the sword was Ser Ilyn Payne. My earlier musings linked him to Arthur Dayne because of the rhyming surnames but also the white / silver sword: the Dayne sigil includes a white sword (presumably Dawn) and Ser Ilyn carries a silver sword at Joffrey's wedding feast, providing it to Joffrey for the cutting of the pigeon pie.

Ser Ilyn's title is The King's Justice. Long ago I speculated that the sword Ice was originally called Justice - perhaps a companion blade to the sword Truth. So there's something going on with the specific person of Ilyn Payne and the sword Ice but, at the same time, the silver sword (also distinctive because it is covered with runes).

Is there any chance that Ser Ilyn's silver sword is Dawn? No one has mentioned that the Dayne sword was stolen or out of place, and its last known location was Starfall, after Ned left the Tower of Joy. If your speculation is correct, that the ancient, original sword Ice is the sword Dawn, then Joffrey would have used the sword Ice to slice the pie that killed him. (I realize the piece he ate came from a different pie and the one with the birds was symbolic.) As I said earlier, GRRM loves irony.

But Payne is not the same as Dayne, in spite of the rhyme. I can't explain why Ser Ilyn would have the Dayne family sword. Ser Ilyn is, in some ways, Tywin Lannister's direwolf - very loyal and, like Jon Snow's direwolf, silent. When Tywin dies, Jaime liberates Ser Ilyn from his dungeon cell (the King's Justice and jailkeeper lived like a prisoner) and takes him to the Riverlands and a sparring partner and confidant. Originally, Ser Arthur Dayne had been a mentor to Jaime. Now Ser Ilyn is filling a similar role.

Are we all 100% sure that Arthur died at the Tower of Joy? I know Ser Ilyn's tongue was cut out by King Aerys - or so we are told. Arthur Dayne could not have had a conversation with Ned at the Tower of Joy if he was the same person as Ser Ilyn and had already had his tongue cut out. Maybe they are just parallel, echo characters, not the same guy.

Well i've seen some speculate that Arthur went North, but im not sure i believe it. I wonder about Dustin though haha most would quote Eddard's waking thought about burying them all though. 

Though i have pointed out that when Jon kills Qhorin, Qhorin holds his maimed hand up and say's sharp. Makes me think he lost half his hand to Valyrian steel.

There is a link between the Wall and K.L. through Varys though as Yoren is one of Vary's men. As he informs Varys of Tyrion being taken and Varys tasks Yoren with taking Gendry north. 

And i would speculate that the OG Ice is not a Valyrian sword, nor is it Dawn. Starks are associated with Winter and the Long Night, not Day and Summer. Ice is likely the crystal blade of the Others, and the Crystal blade being represented on the sigil of the warriors son's and Faith militant. 

If you go your theory though, i would venture an Iron Born stole it or an Andal, the two people the Starks fought. And Corbray's have Lady Forlorn with a ruby heart on it. 

While Galadon hooked up with the Maiden who fell in love with him, Elenai was also a maid who fell in love with a mortal and doomed a mortals death. The first Dayne forged Dawn from the Heart of a dying star (Maiden maid of light? and her heart?). Then there is Azor Ahai who stabbed Nissa Nissa through the heart with a sword, killing his lover. 

Now, while all of this sounds pretty literal, but i dont think it is. I think this is referring to sex, and her dying during birth. Birthing the first person tied by blood to the dragons. A weapon to be used against the Others, the Valyrians. Only death may pay for life.

Plus there is GRRM saying that Dawn is only a couple thousand years old. So it's either a fake, or history is much shorter than we're led to believe. 

So combine all that with Rhaegar, Arthur, and Ashara Dayne, and you get Daenerys, the Dayne Heiress and Sword of the Morning imo.

I would argue that Dawn is made from the Weirwood Trees and why its different than Valyrian Steel. Hence why Dawn glows milk white like the BlackGate, and Valyrian steel is dark like the Black barked tree's found in Essos, where Valyria is.

To make steel, you take Iron and fuse it with Carbon. Tree's have carbon and can be used. Though you can use sand and glass in crucible steel. Though that wouldn't explain the difference between Dawn and Valyrian steel. Both of which are the same in every way but color. Dawn glows milk white like the weirwood Black Gate. But maybe Martin went the way of obsidian to make Valyrian steel, and shove it through a heart to make it glow? 

But if they already had dragon steel back then, then why create another magic sword (Dawn) to fight the others? When Dragon steel already should work so far as we know? Unless he didn't stab her to make a sword, but rather to kill her and end the war? Idk.

[AlaskanSandman]

Forgot to point out that Azor Ahai, Galladon of Morne, Durran and Elenai, etc are all legends from south of where the Long Night froze to (the joining of the selhoru), where as the legend of Hugor of the Hill, and the Last Hero are legends from the North. Hugor is tied to the Faith Militant and Faith of the Seven.

 

Edit- Every one thought i was crazy when i suggested that Uthor-Hugor-Huzhor-Azor were all the same guy and a phonetic shift in the name across cultures. But i thought id throw that out there now and again for your arguments side. 

[Rufus Snow]

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Plus there is GRRM saying that Dawn is only a couple thousand years old. So it's either a fake, or history is much shorter than we're led to believe. 

I read this as meaning the latter: read the SSM carefully and you'll see GRRM didn't say 'it is only 2,000 years old'. He said it 'goes back 2,000 years', and then goes on to comment about how beyond that date, nobody knows anything anyway because history is so hazy. So what he is implying is that Dawn is as old as anything that people know about. The way he phrased that SSM is a little odd, and I read it to mean that Dawn is AT LEAST 2,000 years old, not ONLY 2,000 yrs.

Now I agree history is foreshortened in Westeros, and the number of years can be disputed. I'm convinced GRRM means Dawn to date back literally to the Dawn Age - even if that's only 3 or 4 thousand years ago, maybe even less. The point of the SSM, I believe, is not to make us think that Dawn doesn't go 'all the way back', but that 'all the way back' isn't nearly as long as we might have thought. So, I believe Dawn is genuine, it's history that's the fake

And I'm still happy with the mundane idea that Dawn is simply made of meteoric iron, as would be consistent with the whole 'falling star' imagery. We know in our own world that weapons were made of meteoric iron long before the 'iron age' when smelting of ores was discovered. The handful of these weapons in the Bronze Age would have seemed absolutely magical at the time - and this is totally consistent with the Daynes having an iron-based sword at a time when all the other First Men were wielding bronze, without having to bring in Valyrians or dragons. Occam's razor, yadda yadda....

 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Rufus Snow said:

I read this as meaning the latter: read the SSM carefully and you'll see GRRM didn't say 'it is only 2,000 years old'. He said it 'goes back 2,000 years', and then goes on to comment about how beyond that date, nobody knows anything anyway because history is so hazy. So what he is implying is that Dawn is as old as anything that people know about. The way he phrased that SSM is a little odd, and I read it to mean that Dawn is AT LEAST 2,000 years old, not ONLY 2,000 yrs.

Now I agree history is foreshortened in Westeros, and the number of years can be disputed. I'm convinced GRRM means Dawn to date back literally to the Dawn Age - even if that's only 3 or 4 thousand years ago, maybe even less. The point of the SSM, I believe, is not to make us think that Dawn doesn't go 'all the way back', but that 'all the way back' isn't nearly as long as we might have thought. So, I believe Dawn is genuine, it's history that's the fake

And I'm still happy with the mundane idea that Dawn is simply made of meteoric iron, as would be consistent with the whole 'falling star' imagery. We know in our own world that weapons were made of meteoric iron long before the 'iron age' when smelting of ores was discovered. The handful of these weapons in the Bronze Age would have seemed absolutely magical at the time - and this is totally consistent with the Daynes having an iron-based sword at a time when all the other First Men were wielding bronze, without having to bring in Valyrians or dragons. Occam's razor, yadda yadda....

 

Why would history be hazy 2000 years ago? (Andal Invasion, no history before them?) And still and interesting statement from Martin who could've parroted Eddard "The sword dates back to the Dawn Days"

[Seams]

@AlaskanSandman

I probably should have tried to include a tl;dr summary. My comment was intended to respond to Sly Wren's theory about a Dawn / Ice correspondence and to circle back to that possible Dayne / Payne clue that I think GRRM may have left for us.

If I follow your post, you are branching off into a "Where is Ice?" or "What is Ice?" discussion in addition to explaining why you think the Dawn / Ice equivalence is not accurate.

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And i would speculate that the OG Ice is not a Valyrian sword, nor is it Dawn. Starks are associated with Winter and the Long Night, not Day and Summer. Ice is likely the crystal blade of the Others, and the Crystal blade being represented on the sigil of the warriors son's and Faith militant.

This really caught my interest. I believe that the obsidian dagger Jon made for himself, using dragon glass from the cache at the Fist, is Lightbringer. But the idea that the same weapon might have a different name is growing on me -- if the later version of Ice can be renamed Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, and if human beings can have multiple names, why shouldn't a legendary sword have more than one name.

I think there is significance in the fact that Jon made the handle for the obsidian dagger himself (making him something of a smith) and that the handle is rough, ugly wood. The wooden handle may address your idea that wood is somehow integrated into the magical blade.

But I am also mindful that Jon dug up the bundle at the place where he jammed his torch in the ground. In that same chapter, he thinks about the red comet which has been nicknamed "Mormont's Torch" by the men of the Night's Watch. So we have a "star" falling to earth at the site where Jon finds the dagger, similar to the Dawn legend.

The torch /comet also puts Mormont in the role of a symbolic guide, providing a torch to lead Jon to the spot in partnership with the direwolf, Ghost. This is a (tenuous) connection back to the earlier discussion of Alysanne and her possible out-of-wedlock child, if the Mormonts are part of that hushed-up history. Maybe the dragonglass cache can be found only when the hero is led to it by the combined direwolf (Stark) and comet (Dayne? Targ?) spirit guides? Who are part of his bloodline?

I'm now comparing this in my head to the strange winding path to the Queenscrown tower. Most people would not be able to follow the path, but Meera scouts each step forward to lead the group, and Hodor carries Bran and then helps the others through the door. They don't find dragonglass at the tower, but Bran does skin change Hodor for the first time. We have hints that this was taboo, yet it saves the group's life as Bran is able to keep Hodor quiet by doing this.

If the Tower of Joy / Queenscrown parallel is correct (and now we might have to take a close look at the Fist of the First Men), I wonder whether there will be similar elements of a secret path, uniquely qualified guides and a special weapon at the Tower of Joy? The weapon might be obvious: the sword Dawn, retrieved by Ned and delivered to Starfall. I wonder whether the guides were the travel companions who accompanied Ned or the Kingsguard members encountered at the Tower? The tower is on a road called the Prince's Pass, and it is apparently a well-traveled trade route, not a winding, secret path that requires special guides. If a secret path is part of the parallel between the Queenscrown and the Tower of Joy stories, the lack of a difficult trail to the tower itself might provide support for the notion that there is a nearby structure that is more difficult to reach, and that Lyanna's bed of blood might have been at this separate location.

After finding the cache and bringing it back to the ranging camp, Jon then distributes arrowheads and other blades, which might duplicate or parallel your thinking about the blade that can be shattered into shards.

The good thing about all the parallels and echoes in ASOIAF is that this reading of the obsidian dagger can be true and your idea about the sword of the Others being Ice can also be true at the same time. GRRM may be giving us variations on a theme and showing how legends evolve from multiple sources or split to become different stories stemming from a single source.

I am open to Dany as a Dayne heiress or as a Rhaegar descendant. Maybe GRRM will never make that 100% clear. But I don't see her wielding Dawn. She just doesn't seem like a sword-user to me. She has a named weapon called the Harpy's Fingers - a whip given to her when she bought the Unsullied. She also has dragons. I think a sword would be beside the point (so to speak).

One more thought about the Dayne symbolism: one of Arthur's nicknames is The Sword of the Morning. It occurred to me the other day that Joffrey's sword is called "Widow's Wail," which would be an expression of mourning. Knowing GRRM's love of wordplay, I think he may be giving us an echo here in the form of "the sword of the morning" and "the sword of mourning". Margaery tells Joffrey that Widow's Wail was not made for slicing pies, whereupon Joffrey requisitions Ilyn Payne's sword and uses it to open the ceremonial pigeon pie. Is this another clue for us about Ser Ilyn's silver sword? Could it be the sword of the morning?

[AlaskanSandman]

7 minutes ago, Seams said:

 

Let me ask you this then, how do you imagine the Sword of the Morning/Lightbringer being used in any way different than Valyrian steel could, or an obsidian dagger? Both of which will kill an Other or wight. So unless there is an Final Boss that requires knowing his special weakness and using your magic sword that is different than all others as this Final Boss is more Op than the Boss 1 and 2. I dont see how a magic sword is going to help much against the Others. 

And my point about Dawn is that it's a ceremonial sword still, and not really light bringer, just a symbol of their house. I think the Dragons are light bringer. Dany wouldn't wield Dawn really as she is the sword of the morning, and the Dragons are her weapon. 

[Rufus Snow]

49 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Martin ... could've parroted Eddard

Sure, he could ... but one of the things that keeps us all so engaged is that he doesn't spoon-feed us

12 minutes ago, Seams said:

If the Tower of Joy / Queenscrown parallel is correct (and now we might have to take a close look at the Fist of the First Men), I wonder whether there will be similar elements of a secret path, uniquely qualified guides and a special weapon at the Tower of Joy? The weapon might be obvious: the sword Dawn, retrieved by Ned and delivered to Starfall. I wonder whether the guides were the travel companions who accompanied Ned or the Kingsguard members encountered at the Tower? The tower is on a road called the Prince's Pass, and it is apparently a well-traveled trade route, not a winding, secret path that requires special guides. If a secret path is part of the parallel between the Queenscrown and the Tower of Joy stories, the lack of a difficult trail to the tower itself might provide support for the notion that there is a nearby structure that is more difficult to reach, and that Lyanna's bed of blood might have been at this separate location.

Some interesting points in there. The 'hidden path' thing... given Meera on the Queenscrown causeway, could this be a hint towards (part of?) Howland's role? And also, without trawling through all the material, I think there was some mention somewhere of a hidden path into Dorne, similar to the one Robb used in the Westerlandss to skirt the Golden Tooth. Does anyone else recall that, or am I mis-remumbling?

[Seams]

20 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Let me ask you this then, how do you imagine the Sword of the Morning/Lightbringer being used in any way different than Valyrian steel could, or an obsidian dagger? Both of which will kill an Other or wight. So unless there is an Final Boss that requires knowing his special weakness and using your magic sword that is different than all others as this Final Boss is more Op than the Boss 1 and 2. I dont see how a magic sword is going to help much against the Others. 

And my point about Dawn is that it's a ceremonial sword still, and not really light bringer, just a symbol of their house. I think the Dragons are light bringer. Dany wouldn't wield Dawn really as she is the sword of the morning, and the Dragons are her weapon. 

This is really getting away from the topic, so I will try to be brief.

I suspect that the sword Dawn (or the idea of the sword Dawn) is similar to the comet. (And I use the name Dawn loosely here - I had been assuming that the obsidian was Lightbringer, but I'm going with the notion discussed earlier that the names may be interchangeable.) The mere presence of the comet may have made magic more effective; may have enabled the dragon-hatching; may have signaled the arrival of a promised prince.

I am fascinated by the miasma theory, and I believe that there is a giant metaphor of The Others as an infection or - possibly - as white blood cells. The dragonglass is an antibody against the infection. (One possible wordplay clue: GRRM always gratuitously throws in the phrase, "the maesters call it obsidian" when referring to dragonglass. That phrase contains an anagram of "antibodies" along with other letters that may form relevant words in a larger hint.) So the obsidian is the medicine, if you will, that will slay the Others and/or the White Walkers.

Maybe Dawn symbolizes the scientific method or enlightenment or the necessary Eureka moment of insight that allows scientists to zero in on a cure.

Or maybe it is just the weapon that will eventually result in the hero's death, after the "disease" of the White Walkers has been cured.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

31 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Sure, he could ... but one of the things that keeps us all so engaged is that he doesn't spoon-feed us

Some interesting points in there. The 'hidden path' thing... given Meera on the Queenscrown causeway, could this be a hint towards (part of?) Howland's role? And also, without trawling through all the material, I think there was some mention somewhere of a hidden path into Dorne, similar to the one Robb used in the Westerlandss to skirt the Golden Tooth. Does anyone else recall that, or am I mis-remumbling?

But, we'll just ignore the implication of history being foggy beyond that as a sign of when the Andals showed up or that dawn is indeed only "a couple thousand'" years old. I just see no reason to doubt Martin drawing our attention to this. Even though it lines up with so many other clues he has laid, like Andals coming only a couple thousand years ago. Which i've shown clues from multiple angles showing when the Andals arrived.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/152038-alternate-facts-v2-the-second-coming/

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/152059-grrm-already-told-us-the-tower-of-joy-backstory-wrong-joy-no-hiding-and-fight-elsewhere/&page=2

Bridging them roughly below.

Spoiler

 

Garth the green God on Earth                                                          

Garth Gardener            Maris = Uthor Hightower   Bloody Brandon   Durran God’s Grief     Grey King?

                            (Bloodstone Emperor before, during this time. Huzhor Amai and Azor Ahai also?)

Garth II          Urrigon and Peremore Hightower (Maesters)        Bran Builder     

                                            Age of the Long Night

Garth III                                                                                                                    first ironborn king  Urras GreyIron?

                                                                                                                                                                             Regnar Drumm.

Garth V Hammer of the Dornish       

                                                                                                   Time line connect point A.                     

Gwayne I The Gallant                                         King Harrag Hoare vs   King Theon Stark vs Andals   Roughly 2000 years ago

                                                                                        King Samwell Dayne The Starfire  (Andals in Riverlands & Vale?)

                                                                                         Qhored the Cruel  - kills Bernar II Justman, ending House.

Gyles I the Woe                              *Samwell, Qhored, Glyes within a the same century sack Old Town.

                                                          King Othos III Hightower builds walls of Old Town.

 

-----------------------------End of Slavery on Main Land Westeros---------------------------------------------------

 

Mery III – Brings Arbor into the Reach                                                                                                   Balon V Greyjoy

Garland II- Wed Lymond Hightower’s daughter bringing Old Town into Reach.       Erich V Harlaw

 

Gareth II the Grim                              slain by Harron Harlaw son of Erich V Harlaw

                                                                               Within 50 years Joron I Blacktyde            *Ironborn decline.

Garth VI MorningStar – killed by Ironborn                                                     Urragon III GreyIron

                                                                                                                                                    Urathon Goodbrother

Gordon I Grey Eyes                                                                                                        Torgon GreyIron

                                                                                                                                                    Urragon IV GreyIron

                                                                                                                                                   Urron Redhand

-----------------------------End of Driftwood kings and start of GreyIron dynasty.--------------------------------

 (Andals On IronIsles) sometime after Blacktydes said to have ruled 1000 years but likely shorter by a lil bit.

 

2700Bc  - Blackwoods vs Bracken feud begins during the Age of Hereos 1. Gendel and Gorne 2.

 

 

1700 Bc – Dawn Forged to fight the Long Night.  3 . Joramun teams up with Brandon the Breaker against the Night King? Or the Century afer? 4. Andal Invasion of Westeros 5. Inner Walls and only defense of Winterfell built (Theon Stark this time or after, no earlier. Time of Early Andal Invasion) 6. Abandonment of Zamettar 7. Time line connect point A

1436 Bc- Scouring of Lorath by Valyria 8

1336 Bc- Boash on Lorath 9

 

1000 Bc- Starry Sept built in Old Town after Andal Conquest , Glass Candles brought to Old Town from Valyria , Falcon Crown first worn by Artys Arryn I forged  (So this is the time of completion in the Andal Conquest)

950 Bc- Start of Rhoynish Wars with Valyria 13

700 Bc- The Horned Lord passes the Wall using magic 14. Nymeria’s 10,000 ships. And End of Rhoynish Wars with Valyria 15

400Bc- Osric Stark youngest L.C. serves for 60 years 16

300 Bc- Hardhome, first city north of the Wall burned to the ground 17, Valyrians take Dragonstone  18. . Commanders at Night Fort and Snow Gate go to war, teaming up to kill the L.C. till the Stark in Winterfell kills them.  19 Freys take the Neck. 20. Bael the Bard 

200Bc- Gate at Wall/ Bridge of Skulls Sealed. 21. Valyrian Steel Blades begin to enter Westeros. 22.

112Bbc – Exile of the Targaryens from Valyria and flight to Westeros 23.

100 Bc- Doom of Valyria by Lannister Gold to the Faceless Men for entering Westeros? 24

0 – Aegon’s Conquest 25

226 Ac – Raymund RedBeard vs Lord Willam Stark 27

300 Ac- Mance Rayder 28

 

 

 

Too many things line up for me to ignore 

[Rufus Snow]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Why would history be hazy 2000 years ago? (Andal Invasion, no history before them?)

Sorry, forgot to respond: different kind of history before the Andals: oral.

I'm beginning to think that George is trying to portray history in Westeros in a similar way to how he had Varys describe power: the past is what people believe it to be.

We have to remember that as readers we have a very privileged position in our own world. We have the Internet, we are all literate, educated folk here, many of us own more books than the average Westerosi Lord - there may even be people here who own more books than the Citadel.... Our world contains thousands of universities and libraries and the means to transmit their contents to the majority of the world. We understand things like archaeology, comparative linguistics, genetics, chemistry, evolution, geology.... all sorts of things that  have no meaning orplace in WEsteros.

The average Westerosi is an illiterate, uneducated peasant who knows a few songs (and a hell of a lot more practical knowledge on how to survive than the average reader, I'm not being disparaging here....) Even those who have had any education will have been subject to various biases and possibly hidden agendas in what they've been taught.

The Andal transition is a very pertinent point for history in Westeros - a change in culture and religion, and the new method of recording history in the hands of one side only. It's as massive a transition in history as when the British Isles were christianised. The old pagan oral history was swept away, or where it was written down was either glossed to fit the new faith, or rewritten where the old stories were misunderstood and therefore deemed 'wrong' and were 'corrected'. So now we have a bastardised version of the pre-christian mythology in which Bronze Age heroes interact with Christian saints, and ancient Celtic deities find themselves turned into saints, and so on. And this happened about 2,000 years ago, give or take a few centuries...

With all the benefits of our modern world, we still can't dredge the actual truth out of the old myths, because they have been so twisted. Every now and again we might make an archaeological discovery that shines light on something unexpected, but we'll never recover more than a tiny fraction of what's been lost.

All of which goes to say that the old tales of the Dawn Age, Long Night etc in Westeros spent a long time as the oral tradition of the First Men, including all that knowledge of swords and magic and sworn brotherhoods - then the Andals came along and chucked the entire history into a giant blender and whizzed it up into a garbled mess.

[Lady Barbrey]

Hey Sly Wren, stopped in after months and saw you had a new thread so read your theory with interest.  While I think it goes too far to prove some of the more concrete details of your theory, I think your emphasis on displacement (both in this theory and your Dawn theories) as always hits the nail on the head.

Ashara Dayne is characterized as the Helen of Troy of Westeros, so beautiful everyone lines up to dance with or woo her.  And yet, at the end of the tourney, Rhaegar crowns Lyanna Stark the Queen of Love and Beauty - this should have been Ashara in line with the Helen and similar stories, so why the switch?

I would in fact go so far to say that if Rhaegar was contemplating a second bride to fill out his quota of three, with Elia unable to bear children, Ashara was a logical choice.  Lady in waiting and possibly friend to Elia, also his best friend's sister, possessed of an illustrious name, beautiful and above all Dornish, so the Dornish would not be up in arms at a slight to them if he married her in addition to Elia. That crown, both on a thematic and realistic level, belonged to Ashara.

Barristan Selmy tells us Ashara was seduced by a Stark, and women prefer mud over fire.  He's referring to himself as 'mud' but in context, could Ned Stark the Quiet Wolf ever be considered 'fire'?  Who's the fiery 'hot headed' Stark ? - Wild Wolf Brandon Stark who already has a history of seducing a virgin noblewoman (which was not done by nobles as a matter of course - whores, peasants, widows and married women who'd already provided heirs were fair game but noble maids were not). To me, I don't need any more confirmation and have no reason to distrust Selmy in this respect. Brandon Stark seduced Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal.

What's more, Rhaegar found out about the affair - either that they were on the verge or it had already been consummated.  And he, Arthur and Whent (Brandon violated guest right in Whent's family castle) were furious.  Fiance and brother furious, sound familiar?

Brandon's reaction to Rhaegar giving the blue roses to Lyanna - in her lap, remember, not her head - is as if he has been threatened or dishonoured rather than his expected reaction of being honoured.  Think of a spear thrust towards your sister's lap - I mean metaphorically it can't get more explicit he was threatening her with rape or seduction.  The blue rose too is explicitly a Stark symbol that Rhaegar with his reading might have known about.  Bael the Bard and the stolen Stark maiden, and stolen maidenhood.

Everyone seems so caught up in making the Lyanna-Rhaegar connection a romance but other than Lyanna weeping at a sad song, there really is nothing to say any romance between them happened at Harrenhal.  The most we can say is Lyanna might have been attracted to him.

That potential alliance of the Lords to depose Aerys?  Ended when Brandon seduced Ashara.

Much has been made of Dornish free attitudes towards sex, but that's not actually true of the Stoney Dornish, whose culture we are told was more like the rest of Westeros.  If we remember Robert's feelings about Lyanna's abduction, we can perhaps get a sense of how Rhaegar and Arthur felt about Ashara's seduction, not only personally as an attack on their honour but politically as well.

So this is where the displacement comes in, an act of warning and threat.  A sister (Brandon's) for a sister (Arthur's).  A fiance (Robert's) for a fiance (Rhaegar's). Lyanna Stark displaces Ashara Dayne in this story as Queen of Love because the original seduction that ignites events leading to the rebellion is not Rhaegar and Lyanna, but Brandon and Ashara. Rhaegar warns in explicit symbolic language that if Brandon takes Ashara, or if He's already seduced her, he'll take Lyanna in her place.

Brandon's reaction of anger as if to a threat, the bestowing of the crown to Lyanna, both metaphorically and realistically, the end of negotiations for the alliance, Lyanna's later disappearance, Brandon's hotheaded ride to Kings Landing - it all makes sense.

And if Rhaegar and Arthur were in any doubt about whether Brandon actually did the deed at Harrenhal, the doubts would have disappeared when Ashara became pregnant.  Nine months later she gives birth.

The right thing to do, the only noble thing to do in these circumstances for the aristocracy, would have been for Brandon to marry Ashara.  Never mind Rhaegar's original plans, Ashara had been dishonoured, and only a marriage could go any way to diminishing that dishonour.  But as Lady Barbrey told us, Rickard had Southron ambitions. Brandon was engaged to a Lord Paramount's daughter and he or his father for him refused Ashara.

What really struck me in one World Book passage was how bad the weather was - one of the worst pieces of weather in recent times - when Rhaegar, Arthur and Whent decide to go for a jaunt to the Riverlands, just after Ashara gives birth and just before Brandon is to marry Caitlin Tully in the Riverlands. In fact, everyone is travelling there for the wedding.

If our threesome want to force Brandon to marry Ashara instead, they know where they'll find him to force the issue, or failing him, to find Lyanna to force the issue.  And that's what I think happened - they found Lyanna out riding or something at Harrenhal and they did abduct her, not to rape her perhaps, but to threaten Brandon with it so he would call off his wedding and marry Ashara. If he quietly did as they asked, Lyanna might have been returned unharmed with no one much the wiser.

But Brandon hares off to KL, and the rest is history.

This is my theory, and I've been holding to at least the broad outline of it for years now because it makes sense of actions, reactions, events, etc., without much extraneous hypothesizing.  

You can see perhaps too how it fits in with some of your own theories on displacement and the maiden, particularly the Baelish - Caitlin, Lyza, Sans a one. There are Two Maidens, the story we've been given of the Rhaegar Lyanna love story or seduction/abduction is a distorted echo of the first Brandon Ashara story.  I mean, who really ignited the collapse of the kingdom, the war, the deaths,etc?  And who committed suicide when she learned her brother and king were dead, the war lost, as she ostensibly did when she did not after a stillborn child and the death of her lover?  Ashara, and the reason was guilt.  Her transgression started the whole thing.

I want to talk about everything else you've said here but I couldn't until I laid out my own theory, so you can see where and why I might differ on your own theory.

According to my theory here, Rhaegar likely did marry Lyanna, did have Jon with her, because she was his default Ashara (and they might have fallen in love anyway). That does not mean I'm not still open to Arthur as dad (But not Ned, sorry), or to the idea Ashara and/or a child of her and Brandon might be kicking around somewhere!  Aegon?  Bring it!

 

 

[Lady Barbrey]

On 9/19/2018 at 7:42 AM, Rufus Snow said:

Sure, he could ... but one of the things that keeps us all so engaged is that he doesn't spoon-feed us

Some interesting points in there. The 'hidden path' thing... given Meera on the Queenscrown causeway, could this be a hint towards (part of?) Howland's role? And also, without trawling through all the material, I think there was some mention somewhere of a hidden path into Dorne, similar to the one Robb used in the Westerlandss to skirt the Golden Tooth. Does anyone else recall that, or am I mis-remumbling?

I do remember something about a hidden path in Dorne but don't think it was in the core books, maybe in World or forum speculation.  I know I myself theorized that Westeros was possibly inhabited by escaping slaves from the Bloodstone Empire, so the lighthouse, 'we light the way', of the Hightowers was the first stop for ships bearing refugees, and there was a route through Dorne that started there.  Someone else picked up on that and began looking at place names.  But pure speculation.

The one place I remember that definitely had a weird route and guide was the Quiet Isle. The strange circuitous route to get there is what started me figuring out its Avalon, Isle of the Blessed (where heroes are reborn) allusions.

I'd forgotten about the Queenscrown causeway.  I will have to look at it.  These strange paths might be indicative of mythological or other significance.

[Lady Barbrey]

On 9/19/2018 at 7:37 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Let me ask you this then, how do you imagine the Sword of the Morning/Lightbringer being used in any way different than Valyrian steel could, or an obsidian dagger? Both of which will kill an Other or wight. So unless there is an Final Boss that requires knowing his special weakness and using your magic sword that is different than all others as this Final Boss is more Op than the Boss 1 and 2. I dont see how a magic sword is going to help much against the Others. 

And my point about Dawn is that it's a ceremonial sword still, and not really light bringer, just a symbol of their house. I think the Dragons are light bringer. Dany wouldn't wield Dawn really as she is the sword of the morning, and the Dragons are her weapon. 

Actually, the whole Final Boss is harder to kill thing was exactly what I had imagined, but you've just made it sound so ridiculous! Lol.  But my supposition was based on the show really.  Are we allowed to talk about that here?  Been away so long I don't know since the last season went past the books.

I agree the dragons could be Lightbringer but since It's not plural but singular they have never seemed a perfect fit.

If I don't bring the show and my suspicion about the 'heart of winter' into it, then I guess I have always imagined Lightbringer to be a magical focus rather than a stabbing weapon.

[AlaskanSandman]

9 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Actually, the whole Final Boss is harder to kill thing was exactly what I had imagined, but you've just made it sound so ridiculous! Lol.  But my supposition was based on the show really.  Are we allowed to talk about that here?  Been away so long I don't know since the last season went past the books.

I agree the dragons could be Lightbringer but since It's not plural but singular they have never seemed a perfect fit.

If I don't bring the show and my suspicion about the 'heart of winter' into it, then I guess I have always imagined Lightbringer to be a magical focus rather than a stabbing weapon.

Haha no we're not allowed to talk about it. Martin has stated that Garland Tyrell is important to the end game and they didn't even include him and wiped out the Tyrells like they were nothing. Let alone the other changes. Though many talk on here like it's canon so meh hahah 

Yea i just dont see how Dawn can accomplish anything more than obsidian or dragon steel, especially since we've never seen such a bad guy. We dont' know who is leading the Others unfortunately either. I speculate that they are being controlled by a greenseerer but i could be wrong 

[acwill07]

This is a perfect example of overthinking the text.  Unfortunately this runs rampant in the GOT community.  It's ridiculous.

[Lady Barbrey]

On 9/6/2018 at 4:36 PM, Sly Wren said:

.

1. The three scenes/plot points listed above all have clear ties to Ned’s tower dream.

2. Sansa and Arya, stolen Stark maids, are NOT the primary missions of their captors.

3. Stark maids don’t hole up and hide in isolated towers with funny names—and they find no “joy” there. They hide in plain sight under aliases.

4. Arthur Dayne-like fighters (Dunk and Beric both have lots of Dayne imagery) fight ritual fights to defend their missions—which don’t include Stark maids.

5. And the Dayne-like Dunk does NOT fight in or at the actual tower/place he wants to defend. He goes to a neutral location. Fighting in or around such towers is stupid.

6. Given all this, there’s a really good chance Martin’s been giving us information about the tower fight throughout the books, not just making us guess.

7. If so, it’s unlikely that anyone was in the tower of joy during that fight. Or that the Kingsguard fought to the death over a Stark maid. Something else is up. “Keep reading.”

THE END

 

Hi again, Sly Wren,  so I am hoping you'll read my above take on events between Brandon/Ashara/Rhaegar etc before you read this one, where I want to address your wrap up.

To point #1 - agree partially they are all significant

#2 According to my theory, I fully agree with you here.  Lyanna was NOT the target or primary mission of her captors.

#3 It's very possible Lyanna spent at least part of that time at Starfall with Ashara, either under an assumed name or her own.  And I doubt she felt much joy at the beginning. Later, I don't know.  I also think if Rhaegar named it Tower of Joy he was being cynical.

#4 and so on - I am not following the logic or the rationale for the logic in the Dunk tales.  If one had a choice and could pre-assign a more ritualized fight away from a tower, then perhaps one might do so.  But if one has a pregnant woman that can't be moved in a tower, there might not be a choice.  Moreover, whether Lyanna was at the Tower or Starfall the entire time would not be an issue except that in the case the Rebellion succeeded, she could not be found at Starfall or would risk the lives of all its inhabitants.  But convince me if you've got more on this one! These books totally bored me so I can't remember any of them!

[Lady Barbrey]

17 minutes ago, acwill07 said:

This is a perfect example of overthinking the text.  Unfortunately this runs rampant in the GOT community.  It's ridiculous.

Spoilsports are rampant in the GOT community too, and they're what gives Westeros.org a bad name and why many people avoid this site.  Sly Wren always posts thought-provoking thread starters, which in my opinion have led to some of the best discussions of the series on this forum, whether one agrees with her or not.  So go play somewhere else if you don't like it and save your comments for the like-minded.

[AlaskanSandman]

13 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Spoilsports are rampant in the GOT community too, and they're what gives Westeros.org a bad name and why many people avoid this site.  Sly Wren always posts thought-provoking thread starters, which in my opinion have led to some of the best discussions of the series on this forum, whether one agrees with her or not.  So go play somewhere else if you don't like it and save your comments for the like-minded.

Agreed, and Agreed @Sly Wren always post interesting subjects 

[Lady Rhodes]

This is all very interesting. I’m intrigued.

i like the idea of house Dayne being more involved in the Rhaegar situation/the long night with the sword Dawn. I want Jon to be Rhaegar and Lyanna’s Son and while I do believe there is ample textual support, I will admit that the Rhaegar Ashara / Ser Arthur and Lyanna theories are compelling. 

Questions I have:

1) why did lyanna get involved? Why was she with Rhaegar? Was she taken or did she go willingly? 

2)Dany and the Red Door- I agree with many folks that the Red Door was not in Braavos but Dirne. dany beibg Ashara’s could explain this. 

3) Rhaegar has not been described as a playboy- Ned doesn’t think he would be the type to frequent brittles, and Jaime and Barristan think highly of him. So why did he do the things he did?

i read a while back in a heresay thread (babe in the woods? Eight cairns?) regarding a theory that there was a group of people convinced on the long night and working to stop it. Rhaegar, Elia, Lyanna, Ashara and Arthur involved, with possible others. I am wondering if “the dragon has three heads” is more important than we realize. At Danny’s vision at the house of the undying, Rhaegar tells presumably Elia that there must be one more, the dragon has three heads. We also know That Elia was told to have no more children. Could Rhaegar have attempted to impregnate both Ashara and Lyanna (covering bases), succeeding at both?