GRRM Already Told Us the Tower of Joy Backstory: Wrong Joy, No Hiding, and Fight Elsewhere.

[300 H&H Magnum]

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

And I think there's a decent chance it's an echo of what Ned did to Arthur--Night's King descendant killing Day's King descendant with Dawn.

Taken in isolation, this is the Night slaying the Day.  

I thought that dream came after the phrase "the last dragon" was used.  The dream was meant to show her that she is the last dragon.  The importance of this cannot be overemphasized because it means Aegon and Jon are not dragons.  The armies of ice are the men who fought against her brother turned to wights.  

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

And why Dany sees herself in Rhaegar's armor (a la Star Wars). And the imagery of stars around Dany, not just fire and dragons. . .

[300 H&H Magnum]

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

That said, could Rhaegar have forced Lyanna? It's possible, though it seems out of character for Rhaegar. But if he did force Lyanna, would potentially echo the Bael Tale. And it may depend on how driven he was--we see Stannis commit atrocities, fully believing he's right. Rhaegar may have been similarly assured of his "rightness."

Stannis is devoid of compassion. 

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Given how we see Mance, Stannis, the brotherhood, and even the Hound use the Stark Maids they end up with--I think it's possible Rhaegar thought he could use Lyanna as a useful hostage. Didn't hurt her at all--but didn't let her go, either--like Arya with the brotherhood. And with the Hound.

 

Rhaegar would commit atrocity if he meant to sacrifice an innocent girl to the flames to hatch his dragon egg.  But he didn't because Ned seemed to hold him in high regard.  Rhaegar didn't even try to use her as a hostage.  He had a good bargaining chip and failed to use her.  The guy is a poor tactician.  If anybody was stabbing Lyanna at the tower of joy it was probably the Sword of the Morning plugging the Daughter of the Night with his blade.  

 

[Lady Barbrey]

11 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I like this a lot, but why didn't Ashara just drink moontea? If she were to marry Rhaegar and possibly be queen, wouldn't it be smart for her to get "rid of the problem"?

I know there is a slight risk of it damaging a woman's fertility like Lysa, but Asha and Arianne imply that they haven taken moontea many times and their fertility doesn't seem to have been affected, so if the title as queen and a prophecy are at stake why wouldn't Ashara just drink moontea?

Good point and the answer is I don't know, but if we accept that she was pregnant and birthed a child still born or not, then if she were going to do it she would have done so no matter who the father was, but she didn't.  So I just Didn't put that in as part of the equation.  Um, for reasons unknown?  Loved Brandon and thought he'd come round? But I wonder how widespread moon tea's use could possibly be and how effective and/or dangerous. If it were really effective, there'd have been a sexual revolution, just like when the pill was developed, and I saw no signs of that in Westeros!

[Lady Barbrey]

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea, didn't seem like anything that would crush your theory haha and wasn't trying to. Just thought that would help tighten it

Im lone touting Mance as Jon's father tho haha  

I've gone back and forth on just about everyone.  When I was reading the first few books (god, 20 years ago now), I did pick up that George was hinting at R+L=J so I stayed with that for a long time, and still do mostly.  That doesn't change the fact that the Bael the Bard story seems to imply Mance, or that Ned was always a strong contender.  

What I find hardest to dismiss is that pretty much every bit of symbolism seems to indicate a solar cycle, a Day Night, Winter Summer sequence, and of course we know the main problem with Westeros is its day/Night cycle which builds into unbalanced seasons.  So someone to fix it should be an amalgamation of day and night, a morning or twilight figure, and that just keeps screaming Dayne Stark at me.  A Dayne Stark union to produce another Sword of the Morning figure like presumably The Last Hero. But into that symbolism intrudes Rhaegar Targaryan and he doesn't really fit; It's like he's substituting for a Dayne.  He has the fire symbolism, literally, I'll grant you, to match the ice of the Starks, but it is not of the same nature as theirs.  They're part of a solar life cycle, night, death, Ice,etc., with the Daynes balancing with day, life, fire (sun) imagery.  Whereas the Targs don't have that at all, just dragons.

The only way I accept Rhaegar is to speculate the Valyrians and Daynes once shared a common ancestor, something I think you also agree with on other posts.

But honestly they just seem kind of alien to Westeros.  Their substance seems different.

[AlaskanSandman]

44 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I've gone back and forth on just about everyone.  When I was reading the first few books (god, 20 years ago now), I did pick up that George was hinting at R+L=J so I stayed with that for a long time, and still do mostly.  That doesn't change the fact that the Bael the Bard story seems to imply Mance, or that Ned was always a strong contender.  

What I find hardest to dismiss is that pretty much every bit of symbolism seems to indicate a solar cycle, a Day Night, Winter Summer sequence, and of course we know the main problem with Westeros is its day/Night cycle which builds into unbalanced seasons.  So someone to fix it should be an amalgamation of day and night, a morning or twilight figure, and that just keeps screaming Dayne Stark at me.  A Dayne Stark union to produce another Sword of the Morning figure like presumably The Last Hero. But into that symbolism intrudes Rhaegar Targaryan and he doesn't really fit; It's like he's substituting for a Dayne.  He has the fire symbolism, literally, I'll grant you, to match the ice of the Starks, but it is not of the same nature as theirs.  They're part of a solar life cycle, night, death, Ice,etc., with the Daynes balancing with day, life, fire (sun) imagery.  Whereas the Targs don't have that at all, just dragons.

The only way I accept Rhaegar is to speculate the Valyrians and Daynes once shared a common ancestor, something I think you also agree with on other posts.

But honestly they just seem kind of alien to Westeros.  Their substance seems different.

I keep R+L=J in the back of my head, but still doesn't make sense. I like metaphors but i like other clues as well that help build a narrative. That's why im obsessed with Bael and Alysanne and tracing Ae in names and 13. Along with the myths and metaphors in them.

Rhaegar may have done the deed, but it makes no sense and i feel like something is missing. I have some more pieces ive been meaning to discuss but working up the thread for it, The Bear and the Maiden Fair. This will be including House Mormont, and House Tyrell into the mess. Along with Ae, Blue roses, and more. 

[Sly Wren]

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well what ever is going on with Mance and Rhaegar i think is tied to all the other event's in the North i keep going on about. Bael and the Stark Maid, Alysanne and a Stark.

Yes--Alysanne and messing with the Wall and the Nightfort. I buy @Voice's theory that this is likely one of the things that led towards the return of the Others.

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I suspect Mance and Craster of possibly being Bloodraven's bastards on some wildling (Maybe not knowing Bael had spread his gene up there, maybe he did know).  Meaning, maybe Mance has the sword, maybe not. Maybe Rhaegar wanted it back from him, and Aemon didn't know where it ended up. Or he did, and had no way of getting it back.

Hmmm. . . . Mance getting the sword from Bloodraven, even if he's Bloodraven's kid. . . if so, where is it? Why'd he never use it?

I've been thinking that if Bloodraven took Dark Sister to the Wall, he likely took it with him when he went ranging north of the Wall or whatever led him to that cave--reliving somewhat the story of the Last Hero--surrounded by Others and his sword breaking. If Dark Sister survived that journey into the cave (which I think it may not have), seems like it would be in the cave.

And any reason why Rhaegar would suspect Mance of being Bloodraven's (assuming he might be)? 

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And If Rhaegar unmasked the Knight to discover Lyanna under one theory, he can unmask (him as jojen calls him) and discover Mance. The Black brother who had came to Harrenhal.

Fair enough.

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So far as i can tell, the winter rose is a rare rose that only grows in the garden's of winterfell. Where did Rhaegar get them? Or are they not special to winterfell, and part of some older pact? Is there a legend with a rose? i havn't looked yet, Florian maybe? 

No--the text in no way requires this. Just that they also grow in Winterfell's glass gardens. Seems like they are rare because they bloom in winter, not because they only grow in Winterfell. . . 

As for where Rhaegar got them, there's been a lot of speculation on this. My current favorite? Lord Whent was showing off with the expense of the tournament (after all, he wasn't paying for it) and so got winter roses for the laurel. Happenstance. But there are a lot of other theories on this.

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And dont knock Robert's Dornish ties. Where did the hammers fall? was not the waters near there once a freshwater bay or something rather. Could've swore that's where the world book implies the comet fell and broke the arm of Dorne from where it connected in the Storm Lands. Deep ties. Let us not forget Durran stealing the daughter of the god and dooming her to a mortals death (Galladon of Morne, Azor Ahai).

All fair--but given that he and the Marchers are never called Dornishmen, and that the Marchers and Dornish seem to have a history of squabbling--that makes it less likely.

I agree on the imagery of the hammer. And have wondered if the Baratheons' tie to the Targs might also be part of that symbolism. . . 

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And yes, Ygrittes hinting at something deeper than a FM connection, as she is kissed by fire  Jon doesn't need Rhaegar for that connection. He's got it through Bael, and Mance imo.

This also all traces back to understanding Alysanne in my opinion as Maege Mormont has two daughters of interest, Lyanna, and Alysane. We know Maege is older than Rhaegar, so she's not Valyrian through him. 

Nice!

[Sly Wren]

6 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I do believe he initially took her as a hostage but I doubt he meant to harm her.  The problem was Brandon rushing to KL and shit hit the fan. (This is where I believe a mis/missed communication happened - Rhaegar's proposal didn't reach Brandon or was garbled).This was supposed to be a quiet mission, but with Brandon broadcasting she had been abducted etc.,  what could he do with her then? Return her?  The damage was done whether she'd been violated or not.  She's the daughter of the  Warden of the North and fiance of the Stormlord - war with them both was inevitable after something like that.

Agreed this is the likely result--which makes it hard to see how Rhaegar, student of Tywin and witness to all the machinations of Duskendale, wouldn't see this a the potential result. . . .

6 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Aerys was mad but he knew it too, That's why he killed the Starks in his clutches and called for Robert and Net's heads.  And so Rhaegar finds himself in the same position as Brandon even though he didn't actually have sex with Lyanna - he has to marry her, but not only for the sake of her honour like Brandon, but if he has any hope of mitigating the circumstances and avoiding war. But doing that and broadcasting that means alienating Dorne so war can come from that direction too.

Just a clusterfuck all round in my opinion.

Yes--that would be the word for it. Especially since he's already married and the Dornish would want his head for this. The Warden of the South and the Warden of the North would both want to string him up by his thumbs.

Which is one of the key reasons this seems unlikely--As I said above, Rhaegar's been watching these machinations for years. Been studying them from the history, too. Making a mistake this bloody stupid seems. . . unlikely.

6 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

The thing is these circumstances he finds himself in would be the same ones if he had fallen passionately in love with her and run off with her.  War all round and he would have known it. For someone as politically savvy as Rhaegar, that just doesn't wash.  There is no way he ran off with her to cosy up at the TOJ just because he loved her or even was fulfilling a nebulous prophecy.

Agreed.

6 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

His and Arthur's plan should actually have worked. Any other man in the kingdom except hot headed Brandon would have fallen into line, and even Brandon might have if he was given the right message.

Errrm. . . why assume that Robert wouldn't freak out, too? Or Rickard? Or the Martells? This really seems like a mind-bindingly dumb move. . . . way too many ways to go wrong.

6 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

As to the Daynes not hating the Starks, we do know that a cover-up had to take place to mitigate Ashara's involvement, for her, but also possibly for a not quite dead still-born daughter that I believe Ashara's parents might have adopted for their own. Allyria Dayne to me is the best prospect for that child because if she was affianced to Beric Dondarrion, she was the right age, and was born more than fifteen years later than her other siblings, quite the anomaly.  So the Daynes raised a Stark child and were grateful to Ned's silence, and perhaps for not taking her.

I've liked the Allyria is Ashara's theories for a while. But why would Ned leave Brandon's child in the south and take Lyanna's north? 

6 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Here's your other Stark maiden, Sly Wren, hiding in plain sight.  Or not. Lol.

HA!! Well done!

6 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Unless there was a baby switch because of the kid's looks. (Grins).  Brandon and Ashara's son, Jon, goes to Winterfell, while Rhaegar and Lyanna's daughter, Allyria, is raised at Starfall.  Wouldn't that be one for the history books?  Goes against all the symbolism and clues to Jon's identity but it would make a major switch up!

And does give Jon a direct claim on Dawn. Wink.

Thank you for that wink!

6 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Edit: the more I think of it the more I like it!  The Reeds make oaths on ice and fire, an oath that predates the Valyrians.  Who, other than the Daynes, would be fire to the Starks ice in those prehistoric days?  Day and Night, Fire and Ice.  Is this a huge displacement in and of itself?  I just thought of this so I'm laughing at myself as I write it, but maybe, just maybe...

It is logistically possible--if Brandon somehow slept with Ashara while in prison. Which seems. . . unlikely. Though not impossible. 

Plus we have the SSM that Brandon died before having sons. . . so Jon as Brandon's seems very unlikely. . . http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona

And the Daynes and Starks as Ice and Fire of Westeros makes plenty of sense to me. 

 

[Sly Wren]

6 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Taken in isolation, this is the Night slaying the Day.  

I thought that dream came after the phrase "the last dragon" was used.  The dream was meant to show her that she is the last dragon.  The importance of this cannot be overemphasized because it means Aegon and Jon are not dragons.  The armies of ice are the men who fought against her brother turned to wights.  

YUP! Dany calls herself the dragon's daughter in the same novel where she hears Rhaegar called the last dragon--and thinks Viserys is no dragon.

Yes, it could just be family. But if she's Rhaegar's child, it's just so simple.

6 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Stannis is devoid of compassion. 

Or his compassion is overrun by "duty"--we do see his regret over Renly's death, over his role in it. He's not completely devoid of feeling. But being a zealot/ true believer can all too easily make it hard to see/feel the truth.

Rhaegar may have been similar--that scene Dany sees in the House of the Undying--Elia's just given birth and Rhaegar's already saying he needs another baby. Maybe it's just me, but were I Elia, Rhaegar would be getting a tongue lashing--she's just grown a person in her body for 9 months, pushed said person out of her body in a way that is very anatomically impractical, and he's already insisting on another? High time harp boy learned some compassion himself!

6 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Rhaegar would commit atrocity if he meant to sacrifice an innocent girl to the flames to hatch his dragon egg.  But he didn't because Ned seemed to hold him in high regard.

Agree it's unlikely that Rhaegar did this--though Ned's regard doesn't seem all that high. Just thinks that Rhaegar didn't frequent brothels. He thinks the same of Stannis. Not really high praise. 

But he doesn't condemn Rhaegar, either.

6 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Rhaegar didn't even try to use her as a hostage.  He had a good bargaining chip and failed to use her.  The guy is a poor tactician. 

Or, was he holding onto her until the opportune moment? Like we see with the brotherhood without banners? They won't let Arya go until they get their reward, but they have a lot of stuff to do on the way to getting that reward. Rhaegar really seems like he had plans, too.

6 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

If anybody was stabbing Lyanna at the tower of joy it was probably the Sword of the Morning plugging the Daughter of the Night with his blade.  

A fair point (sorry--that's a terrible pun)--though if so, it would have to be consensual. Ned isn't glowing about Rhaegar, but he positively gushes about Arthur to Bran. 

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

What I find hardest to dismiss is that pretty much every bit of symbolism seems to indicate a solar cycle, a Day Night, Winter Summer sequence, and of course we know the main problem with Westeros is its day/Night cycle which builds into unbalanced seasons.  So someone to fix it should be an amalgamation of day and night, a morning or twilight figure, and that just keeps screaming Dayne Stark at me.  A Dayne Stark union to produce another Sword of the Morning figure like presumably The Last Hero. But into that symbolism intrudes Rhaegar Targaryan and he doesn't really fit; It's like he's substituting for a Dayne.  He has the fire symbolism, literally, I'll grant you, to match the ice of the Starks, but it is not of the same nature as theirs.  They're part of a solar life cycle, night, death, Ice,etc., with the Daynes balancing with day, life, fire (sun) imagery.  Whereas the Targs don't have that at all, just dragons.

The only way I accept Rhaegar is to speculate the Valyrians and Daynes once shared a common ancestor, something I think you also agree with on other posts.

But honestly they just seem kind of alien to Westeros.  Their substance seems different.

The Targs are the interlopers and conquerors. They burn the land. In Dany's dreams, when the dragon comes, she feels power. But wakes to find her mouth tastes like ashes. The Dragon is power and destruction of life cycle. Not restoration. 

At least not how Martin presents it.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I keep R+L=J in the back of my head, but still doesn't make sense. I like metaphors but i like other clues as well that help build a narrative. That's why im obsessed with Bael and Alysanne and tracing Ae in names and 13. Along with the myths and metaphors in them.

Rhaegar may have done the deed, but it makes no sense and i feel like something is missing. I have some more pieces ive been meaning to discuss but working up the thread for it, The Bear and the Maiden Fair. This will be including House Mormont, and House Tyrell into the mess. Along with Ae, Blue roses, and more. 

Agreed.

I'd also add that Martin narratively has shown his use of the false dilemma when it comes to mysteries. We see that in the solution to "Who killed Jon Arryn?" 

So, seems like not just symbolically, but also with narrative precedent--tells us to keep our eyes open for other solutions. At least for now.

[Lady Barbrey]

19 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed this is the likely result--which makes it hard to see how Rhaegar, student of Tywin and witness to all the machinations of Duskendale, wouldn't see this a the potential result. . . .

Yes--that would be the word for it. Especially since he's already married and the Dornish would want his head for this. The Warden of the South and the Warden of the North would both want to string him up by his thumbs.

Which is one of the key reasons this seems unlikely--As I said above, Rhaegar's been watching these machinations for years. Been studying them from the history, too. Making a mistake this bloody stupid seems. . . unlikely.

Agreed.

Errrm. . . why assume that Robert wouldn't freak out, too? Or Rickard? Or the Martells? This really seems like a mind-bindingly dumb move. . . . way too many ways to go wrong.

I've liked the Allyria is Ashara's theories for a while. But why would Ned leave Brandon's child in the south and take Lyanna's north? 

HA!! Well done!

Thank you for that wink!

It is logistically possible--if Brandon somehow slept with Ashara while in prison. Which seems. . . unlikely. Though not impossible. 

Plus we have the SSM that Brandon died before having sons. . . so Jon as Brandon's seems very unlikely. . . http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona

And the Daynes and Starks as Ice and Fire of Westeros makes plenty of sense to me. 

 

Brandon wouldn't have to have slept with her prison?  Robert's Rebellion begins three or four months after Harrenhal when Ashara would have been that many months pregnant, so about six months later she has a child and Lyanna has a child six months later than that (the rebellion lasted a year so I think these dates are approximately correct).  You'd have a newborn and a six or seventh month baby at Starfall.

Martin doesn't say he doesn't have sons in that SSM, he says It's likely there are lots of little Snows by Brandon around, but they would not be legitimate.

[Sly Wren]

3 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Brandon wouldn't have to have slept with her prison?  Robert's Rebellion begins three or four months after Harrenhal when Ashara would have been that many months pregnant, so about six months later she has a child and Lyanna has a child six months later than that (the rebellion lasted a year so I think these dates are approximately correct).  You'd have a newborn and a six or seventh month baby at Starfall.

Right--I meant if Brandon and Ashara were Jon's parents--then a prison tryst would likely have been necessary, given what we're told about the timing of Jon's birth.

3 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Martin doesn't say he doesn't have sons in that SSM, he says It's likely there are lots of little Snows around, but they would not be legitimate.

Whoops! I didn't read until the end.

[Lady Barbrey]

1 minute ago, Sly Wren said:

Right--I meant if Brandon and Ashara were Jon's parents--then a prison tryst would likely have been necessary, given what we're told about the timing of Jon's birth.

Whoops! I didn't read until the end.

What I'm saying though is he was the 'stillborn daughter' born to Ashara six months earlier and Allyria was born in the Tower of Joy to Lyanna. Brandon and Ashara conceived Jon at Harrenhal.  Rhaegar and Lyanna conceived Allyria about six months later.

With the corrected timing Alaskansandman gave me, when the second baby was taken back to Starfall from the ToJ, you'd have a newborn and a six or seven month old in residence.  If Allyria, unlike Jon, looked Targaryan, then she would be questioned unless she resided in a place that regularly produced purple-eyed children.  So Ned took Stark-Dayne Jon back with him and left the Stark-Targaryan Allyria at Starfall where she is presented as Arthur and Ashara's much-younger sister.  And the Daynes did this because of their loyalty to Rhaegar and in Arthur's memory.

Still a long shot so I don't want to argue it too much, but It's important the logistics are correct or it can be dismissed altogether.

 

[Sly Wren]

11 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

What I'm saying though is he was the 'stillborn daughter' born to Ashara six months earlier and Allyria was born in the Tower of Joy to Lyanna. Brandon and Ashara conceived Jon at Harrenhal.  Rhaegar and Lyanna conceived Allyria about six months later.

Right--the problem is that if Jon is conceived at Harrenhal, it's hard for him to be born around the time of the Sack and Rhaegar's death. . . maybe GRRM was being coy, but it seems like that's a marker.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents

11 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

With the corrected timing Alaskansandman gave me, when the second baby was taken back to Starfall from the ToJ, you'd have a newborn and a six or seven month old in residence.  If Allyria, unlike Jon, looked Targaryan, then she would be questioned unless she resided in a place that regularly produced purple-eyed children.  So Ned took Stark-Dayne Jon back with him and left the Stark-Targaryan Allyria at Starfall where she is presented as Arthur and Ashara's much-younger sister.  And the Daynes did this because of their loyalty to Rhaegar and in Arthur's memory.

This I can buy--if we can get around the SSM and the novels' takes on when Jon and Dany are born. . . .

11 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Still a long shot so I don't want to argue it too much, but It's important the logistics are correct or it can be dismissed altogether.

Agreed.

[Lady Barbrey]

27 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Right--the problem is that if Jon is conceived at Harrenhal, it's hard for him to be born around the time of the Sack and Rhaegar's death. . . maybe GRRM was being coy, but it seems like that's a marker.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents

This I can buy--if we can get around the SSM and the novels' takes on when Jon and Dany are born. . . .

Agreed.

Thanks for the SSM! Checked out the original email George wrote and it would be hard to get around I think.  Says Dany born maybe 8 or 9 months after Jon.  Still, in the same email he says he can't remember dates!  So there's a tiny out.  

I think I'll leave it with believing there might be the tiniest possibility, and try to content myself glumly, once again, with Rhaegar as dad.

I was interested in your talk of maidens in towers.  Just read an essay of lml's about maidens at the top of towers as moon maidens.  Did you read that one?

[AlaskanSandman]

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--Alysanne and messing with the Wall and the Nightfort. I buy @Voice's theory that this is likely one of the things that led towards the return of the Others.

Hmmm. . . . Mance getting the sword from Bloodraven, even if he's Bloodraven's kid. . . if so, where is it? Why'd he never use it?

I've been thinking that if Bloodraven took Dark Sister to the Wall, he likely took it with him when he went ranging north of the Wall or whatever led him to that cave--reliving somewhat the story of the Last Hero--surrounded by Others and his sword breaking. If Dark Sister survived that journey into the cave (which I think it may not have), seems like it would be in the cave.

And any reason why Rhaegar would suspect Mance of being Bloodraven's (assuming he might be)? 

Fair enough.

No--the text in no way requires this. Just that they also grow in Winterfell's glass gardens. Seems like they are rare because they bloom in winter, not because they only grow in Winterfell. . . 

As for where Rhaegar got them, there's been a lot of speculation on this. My current favorite? Lord Whent was showing off with the expense of the tournament (after all, he wasn't paying for it) and so got winter roses for the laurel. Happenstance. But there are a lot of other theories on this.

All fair--but given that he and the Marchers are never called Dornishmen, and that the Marchers and Dornish seem to have a history of squabbling--that makes it less likely.

I agree on the imagery of the hammer. And have wondered if the Baratheons' tie to the Targs might also be part of that symbolism. . . 

Nice!

As far as Dark Sister, idk. Maybe they stashed it with Jon and Eddard took it to Winterfell. Just speculating here

If Bloodraven had Dark Sister, why would it break? The idea is that VS is a weapon that works against the others. We dont' know for sure that the sword the Last Hero took with him was dragon steel, just that it was a sword. We've seen normal swords break against the others.

As far as Rhaegar knowing Mance is BR's, he may not have at first. Maybe Mance knew it was relevant, like hey bro, we're fam, dont kill me, hear me out a min. 

And no the text doest require it but aside from a passing remark by Cersei about the Blue Bard likely washing his hair with blue roses can be passed off as a glib considering he has blue everything. No other mentions of blue roses, outside of having to do with the North like Dany seeing a blue rose in the wall. Do a search in Asearchoficeandfire.com. It's a rare nothern rose that only appears to grow in the glass gardens of winterfell. 

So as for where Rhaegar got them, after your search, where would you say he got them from?

And maybe a reach but hey, struck me ass odd when Mance and Jon have that exchange

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Stormlands: The Men of the Stormlands

The Marcher lords are duly proud of their history as key defenders of the realm of the Storm Kings, and many are the ballads and tales of their valor.

 

I dont have it all worked out yet, but i think im missing pieces still. Maybe Rhaegar is Jon's father, but where'd he get the roses? Why is there a Blackbrother conveniently at Harrenhal? Knight of the Laughing Tree? A screaming face and a laughing face could look the same in a freeze frame, like the Weirwood tree in the village Crastor was born in, and likely Mance, his brother. Winterfell's Weirwood tree certainly isnt' laughing. The Knight of the Laughing tree is repeatedly referred to a male also by Jojen who addresses him as "he", instead of just being vague and saying "the knight"

 

Ill let you know when i figure out more. Tell me why Maege Mormont has a valyrian name and a daughter named Alysane? (The Bear, the Bear, the Maiden fair) and Alysanne possibly is having a child at Queen's crown in the North, with House Mormont naming a child after her is interesting. I wonder if this Bear and Maiden met at the Tourney of the Rose? Hmmm, and like Bael, the Bear gave a blue rose?

 

Would the Hightowers be aware of anything somehow? Leyton's daughter Alysanne? Marrying Lenyse to a Bear, Jorah Mormont. Who becomes obsessed with our good dragon queen.

 

House Mormont who mysteriously pop up around the time of Bael and Hardhome and Valyria taking dragonstone. With a VS sword Long Claw, belonging to Ser Jorah, but presently in the hands of Jon. Who Mormont thought worth this sword. 

 

I can't place it all yet though.

 

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne VIII

"He will bring a rose for you," her father promised her, but a rose was no good, a rose could not keep her safe. It was a sword she wanted. Oathkeeper. I have to find the girl. I have to find his honor.

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Arya II

"Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."

 

Edit- Oh, and Mance's buddy Tormund is having kids with Alysane Mormont, one in 291ac and the other in 298ac. 298 huh? Did Tormund come to Winterfell with Mance when Robert came? Ned was Lord of Winterfell when Mance met him the first time when still under Qhorgyle, so why get the measure of him again? Did Mance want to get the measure of Robert instead? 

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

 

Forgot to mention with Good Queen Alysanne and her bear. They may have even met at a Tourney in the North. Look up the Mele at Last Hearth. It's a tourney in the North. If the King visited, i would think they would hold a tourney in his honor. Ill be looking for these things in the new book. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

The tense political situation and the novelty of the blue rose are important clues.  Somebody knew ahead of time who was getting the rose.  The tournament was probably rigged.  The blue rose is an obvious threat to the Starks.  The tourney planners had to make sure Rhaegar won.  Mance being present could put a fly in the ointment.  The wicked man is smart enough to know the meaning.  Maybe he wanted war to break out all along.  Jon sends an entertainer to win recruits.  Mormont did the same and sent Mance to the tourney. 

[Sly Wren]

19 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Thanks for the SSM! Checked out the original email George wrote and it would be hard to get around I think.  Says Dany born maybe 8 or 9 months after Jon.  Still, in the same email he says he can't remember dates!  So there's a tiny out.  

The out may be a bit less tiny if the theories that Dany isn't Rhaella's original child pan out. If so, her birthdate might be a bit more fluid. Though a Harrenhal conception for Jon may still be a bridge too far.

19 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I think I'll leave it with believing there might be the tiniest possibility, and try to content myself glumly, once again, with Rhaegar as dad.

He is a clear option--I still hold out hope that Ned will be Jon's dad. Though I'm still thinking it's Arthur.

One way or another, will be thrilled just to get any answer in the books.

19 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I was interested in your talk of maidens in towers.  Just read an essay of lml's about maidens at the top of towers as moon maidens.  Did you read that one?

I did--a while ago, so my memory is fuzzy . . .but the maiden in the tower imagery gets repeated a fair amount in the novels.

I've focused on the Stolen Stark Maid, but the general Maiden in Tower has patterns, too. 

Was there something specific you were thinking of?

[Sly Wren]

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

If Bloodraven had Dark Sister, why would it break? The idea is that VS is a weapon that works against the others. We dont' know for sure that the sword the Last Hero took with him was dragon steel, just that it was a sword. We've seen normal swords break against the others.

My own speculation: we don't yet know if VS works well against the Others. My current guess is that it will, but that it is not going to "defeat" them. And it can be split and broken--we see that with Ice.

I'm just struck by the fact that Bloodraven went on a journey north and ended up in a cave with the children. Seems like there's a chance his story shows us some aspects of what happened with the Last Hero. 

If so, and if he had his sword, could see it as possible that his sword broke and the children saved him, fitting those elements of the legend.

But that is highly speculative.

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

As far as Rhaegar knowing Mance is BR's, he may not have at first. Maybe Mance knew it was relevant, like hey bro, we're fam, dont kill me, hear me out a min. 

HA! Very fair.

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And no the text doest require it but aside from a passing remark by Cersei about the Blue Bard likely washing his hair with blue roses can be passed off as a glib considering he has blue everything. No other mentions of blue roses, outside of having to do with the North like Dany seeing a blue rose in the wall. Do a search in Asearchoficeandfire.com. It's a rare nothern rose that only appears to grow in the glass gardens of winterfell. 

Yes--mentions of both blue roses and blue flowers are very rare in the novels. But it's never said to be a northern rose--just a winter one, which makes it rare. Not unlike the bitter blooms in Martin's past short story. Thus, growing in Winterfell's glass gardens only in winter.

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So as for where Rhaegar got them, after your search, where would you say he got them from?

My current guess? Lord Whent wanted rare flowers for his massive, expensive tournament. Winter roses are rare--would fit the spectacle of the event.

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And maybe a reach but hey, struck me ass odd when Mance and Jon have that exchange

Oh yes--that I buy. My apologies if I seem like I'm pushing too much. A lot of the ideas I eventually go with are ideas that I at first just couldn't buy. Hearing the reasons and arguments. . . .helps me get over my objections sometimes. My apologies if I'm a bother.

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I dont have it all worked out yet, but i think im missing pieces still. Maybe Rhaegar is Jon's father, but where'd he get the roses? Why is there a Blackbrother conveniently at Harrenhal? Knight of the Laughing Tree? A screaming face and a laughing face could look the same in a freeze frame, like the Weirwood tree in the village Crastor was born in, and likely Mance, his brother. Winterfell's Weirwood tree certainly isnt' laughing. The Knight of the Laughing tree is repeatedly referred to a male also by Jojen who addresses him as "he", instead of just being vague and saying "the knight."

Excellent questions--and the idea that Mance could be the black brother intrigues me. Personally, I'm thinking the identity of the knight is a misdirect: the other things at the tourney, including who the knight defeats, are more important. So, the idea that all of your questions being key seems likely.

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ill let you know when i figure out more. Tell me why Maege Mormont has a valyrian name and a daughter named Alysane? (The Bear, the Bear, the Maiden fair) and Alysanne possibly is having a child at Queen's crown in the North, with House Mormont naming a child after her is interesting. I wonder if this Bear and Maiden met at the Tourney of the Rose? Hmmm, and like Bael, the Bear gave a blue rose?

Nice catch on Maege! Especially since we have MMD and Maggi the Frog. . . .

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Would the Hightowers be aware of anything somehow? Leyton's daughter Alysanne? Marrying Lenyse to a Bear, Jorah Mormont. Who becomes obsessed with our good dragon queen.

 

House Mormont who mysteriously pop up around the time of Bael and Hardhome and Valyria taking dragonstone. With a VS sword Long Claw, belonging to Ser Jorah, but presently in the hands of Jon. Who Mormont thought worth this sword. 

 

I can't place it all yet though.

Neither can I--but I'm liking your questions.

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ned was Lord of Winterfell when Mance met him the first time when still under Qhorgyle, so why get the measure of him again? Did Mance want to get the measure of Robert instead? 

Well--might want to see what Ned had become over time. But I like the idea that he was actually looking at Robert.  . . would make a lot of sense.

9 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The tense political situation and the novelty of the blue rose are important clues.  Somebody knew ahead of time who was getting the rose.  The tournament was probably rigged.

Or, rigged at the very end once Rhaegar entered--yes. I think this is likely.

9 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The blue rose is an obvious threat to the Starks.  The tourney planners had to make sure Rhaegar won.

I, too, think it very likely Rhaegar is swatting the Starks with that rose. How long ahead of time that was planned gets harder to pin down.

9 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Mance being present could put a fly in the ointment.  The wicked man is smart enough to know the meaning.  Maybe he wanted war to break out all along.  Jon sends an entertainer to win recruits.  Mormont did the same and sent Mance to the tourney. 

Whoa! On the bolded--I couldn't find that in the books. Can you point me in the right direction?

@AlaskanSandman--did you see this? Or did you already bring it up and I missed it?

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

My own speculation: we don't yet know if VS works well against the Others. My current guess is that it will, but that it is not going to "defeat" them. And it can be split and broken--we see that with Ice.

I'm just struck by the fact that Bloodraven went on a journey north and ended up in a cave with the children. Seems like there's a chance his story shows us some aspects of what happened with the Last Hero. 

If so, and if he had his sword, could see it as possible that his sword broke and the children saved him, fitting those elements of the legend.

But that is highly speculative.

HA! Very fair.

Yes--mentions of both blue roses and blue flowers are very rare in the novels. But it's never said to be a northern rose--just a winter one, which makes it rare. Not unlike the bitter blooms in Martin's past short story. Thus, growing in Winterfell's glass gardens only in winter.

My current guess? Lord Whent wanted rare flowers for his massive, expensive tournament. Winter roses are rare--would fit the spectacle of the event.

Oh yes--that I buy. My apologies if I seem like I'm pushing too much. A lot of the ideas I eventually go with are ideas that I at first just couldn't buy. Hearing the reasons and arguments. . . .helps me get over my objections sometimes. My apologies if I'm a bother.

Excellent questions--and the idea that Mance could be the black brother intrigues me. Personally, I'm thinking the identity of the knight is a misdirect: the other things at the tourney, including who the knight defeats, are more important. So, the idea that all of your questions being key seems likely.

Nice catch on Maege! Especially since we have MMD and Maggi the Frog. . . .

Neither can I--but I'm liking your questions.

Well--might want to see what Ned had become over time. But I like the idea that he was actually looking at Robert.  . . would make a lot of sense.

Or, rigged at the very end once Rhaegar entered--yes. I think this is likely.

I, too, think it very likely Rhaegar is swatting the Starks with that rose. How long ahead of time that was planned gets harder to pin down.

Whoa! On the bolded--I couldn't find that in the books. Can you point me in the right direction?

@AlaskanSandman--did you see this? Or did you already bring it up and I missed it?

 

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Dareon is a recruit of the Night's Watch, known primarily for his excellent singing voice. Ser Alliser Thorne refers to him as Lover

A Feast for Crows

Jon Snow, after being named Lord Commander, names Dareon as a replacement for Yoren, a missing wandering crow. He sends Dareon south with Samwell Tarly, Maester Aemon, and Gilly, with the idea that his singing could bolster recruitment to the Night's Watch.

I have wondered about Darksister breaking or if he didn't take the sword with him, just a normal sword as he knew he wasn't coming back, same as Jon did with Long Claw.

And Bloodraven does more than mirror the Last Hero, he mirrors the Night's King with even sacrificing children through the Black Gate, along with being L.C. for 13 years. (And possibly 995th L.C.  9+9-5=13)

And if anyone in Westeros has blue roses, it's House Tyrell. That's if, any one else has them. Loras didn't give Sansa one though. 

And na, your totally cool haha i dont mind pushy even a lil, long as it's not obviously being rude how some are on here. Theres alot though that i like talking to and we all disagree haha  

And yea, im keeping my eye on House Mormont and looking up some more stuff. Baelish, Hightowers, and Tyrells im watching too. Mance, Valyrian blood in the North, House Mormont ties and all that is what im watching most though. 

House Mormont pops up around the time of Bael and Hardhome possibly, putting Valyrian blood in House Stark, and North of the Wall. 

We later have Alysanne sleeping with some one in the North possibly at Queen's Crown. Was it a mormont? The Bear and the Maiden Fair? Was it a Stark? or a wildling beyond the wall?

Then we have Maege popping up before Rhaegar was born, a kid named Lyanna, and the other, Alysanne, sleeping with a wildling. Tormund. The bear and the maiden fair again? Tormund would have gave Alysane her 2nd kid in 298Ac when Mance slipped into Wiinterfell as a Bard.

Coming down to poor ser Jorah and Lynese and all that jazz. 

We have House Hightower with an Alysanne, and House Manderly with a Wylla.

Bear Island, Hightower Island, Manderly's who are obviously seafarers and worship a sea god. Is this an alliance of those ancient Valyrian Houses?