GRRM Already Told Us the Tower of Joy Backstory: Wrong Joy, No Hiding, and Fight Elsewhere.

[AlaskanSandman]

27 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Lyanna is a slim girl who rode her horse very well.  I'm still not sure if that alone is enough to defeat competent knights in a high level tournament.  I vacillate on the identity of the KotLT.  Howland Reed is another choice but he doesn't have the background to unhorse those knights.  I may have to throw in with the people that says KotLT was a knight in disguise.  This somebody overheard the fracas between Howland and the squires.  Maybe it was somebody who got paid but I am not so sure about that.  A person who valued money would have ransomed the armor back to the knights.  It's somebody known to Lyanna.  A yet unknown boyfriend or someone who hoped to become her boyfriend.  A fighting man with skills to unhorse three knights.  He either loved her enough to do this for her or maybe she asked him.  And you know she probably repaid his gallant service with, um, services of her own.  

A man who had close proximity to her prior to the Tourney. A man whose custom it is to bride steal and impress by feats of strength. A man whose legends involve stealing a Stark maid and giving a blue rose. A man who came south as a bard and singer. A man, who even his friend/enemy make sure his son is brought to him. A man who will not face his son in Battle due to "Blood". A man who can defeat people who train against 3 men at once. A man very interested in the crypts of Winterfell. A man who would have been a young man at the time. A man not allowed to have a wife, or lands, or a title. A man whose culture doesn't look down on bastards. A man whose best friend also steals and impregnates northern girls south of the wall. A man who is also a bastard. A man who may have met his beloved before near a famous Tower in the North, where another famous girl once was. Another girl who may have been "stolen". A man who's blood may be the only chance the Free Folk have. A man whose blood may be Valyrian. A man of the North. The True North. Where the North Remembers

 

Edit- Let's not forget Mance would have met and known Aemon Targaryen, who kept in regular contact with Rhaegar. Mance fathered by a man from the Wall? Could he be tied to Bloodraven? Another bastard? Aemon chose to go to the wall with Bloodraven, so its not unlikely that Aemon and Bloodraven worked together.

[Damsel in Distress]

Arthur Dayne is a champion of fairness.  Is it possible for him to join the tournament in disguise to fight for Howland?  Reed was outclassed and out of his comfort zone.  He was too small to defend himself against teenage boys.  The little man had no chance against seasoned knights.  Arthur would see the injustice in this and took matters in his own hands.  Do we have an account of the mystery knight and Arthur being seen at the same time?

[Darth Sidious]

On ‎10‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 2:13 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

No, not a long stretch and thanks for this as I hadn't even considered a hired man!  I guess it comes down to Lyanna being the obvious answer but as a once very athletic but normal-sized 14 year old girl myself, I find it hard to believe she could take a hit from men I presume are built like linebackers.  She was sure taking a chance she could dodge them!  In that case, all I can say is I hope the stakes were a good deal stronger than in revenge for her bannermen's honour against three squires she had already beaten and soundly humiliated.

 

Doing something totally foolish is not unbelievable for a reckless person described as having the "wolf's blood."  She got the impulse to ride against those men and did it without looking at the larger consequences.  She was a one person demolition team.  The wrecking ball that got her father and brother killed?  Doesn't she sound like Jon Snow and Arya Stark.  You know all three look alike.  I won't put it past Lyanna to take the fight to those men.  But you are also correct to doubt her chances of success.  George R.R. Martin is realistic.  David might beat Goliath one time.  But thrice? 

Those squires were holding back because she was a lady.  They would have gotten more than an ass beating if they had put a bruise on her body.  Lyanna could do as she pleased to them and they were not going to return in kind.  Brandon would have opened their throats.  The Starks are temperamental people.  One of those boys popping Lyanna a hard one across the mouth would have earned him the death penalty from the Starks.  I firmly believe those squires kept their heads and did not respond in the way they might have had their attacker been a commoner. 

I am starting to like the impostor theory.  The armor's helmet is better than any mask ever invented.  Knight of the laughing tree was somebody who was hired by the injured parties.  He was a professional tournament knight.  This somebody keeps a low profile and had a nice thing going.  He was building up a nice retirement fund when the wolf girl came knocking with a business proposal.  Howland Reed was in on the plan from the beginning.  Riding is not something one can learn overnight.  The  crannog man was a fish out of water.  It could not have been him. 

 

[Lady Barbrey]

5 hours ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

Doing something totally foolish is not unbelievable for a reckless person described as having the "wolf's blood."  She got the impulse to ride against those men and did it without looking at the larger consequences.  She was a one person demolition team.  The wrecking ball that got her father and brother killed?  Doesn't she sound like Jon Snow and Arya Stark.  You know all three look alike.  I won't put it past Lyanna to take the fight to those men.  But you are also correct to doubt her chances of success.  George R.R. Martin is realistic.  David might beat Goliath one time.  But thrice? 

Those squires were holding back because she was a lady.  They would have gotten more than an ass beating if they had put a bruise on her body.  Lyanna could do as she pleased to them and they were not going to return in kind.  Brandon would have opened their throats.  The Starks are temperamental people.  One of those boys popping Lyanna a hard one across the mouth would have earned him the death penalty from the Starks.  I firmly believe those squires kept their heads and did not respond in the way they might have had their attacker been a commoner. 

I am starting to like the impostor theory.  The armor's helmet is better than any mask ever invented.  Knight of the laughing tree was somebody who was hired by the injured parties.  He was a professional tournament knight.  This somebody keeps a low profile and had a nice thing going.  He was building up a nice retirement fund when the wolf girl came knocking with a business proposal.  Howland Reed was in on the plan from the beginning.  Riding is not something one can learn overnight.  The  crannog man was a fish out of water.  It could not have been him. 

 

I'm still hanging onto Jaime by a thread though.  His participation is dependent on him knowing about Howland, of course, and though there's nothing to say he didnt, we have no clue that he did, so that has to be imagined in.

1. Who do we know that grew up on tales of tournaments and knights and wanted to be just like them so would love the idea of playing a Mystery Knight? JAIME

2. Who besides Lyanna in the story has a reputation for hating bullies and even beating up some bullying Squires? JAIME

3. Who does Aerys think it is? JAIME

4. Who has a reputation for helping Arthur Dayne defeat the SMILING knight so might draw someone LAUGHING, as in last laugh and one-upmanship, on a hand drawn shield to represent his claim to fame (and Howland's with the tree)? JAIME

5.Who was seriously pissed off when ordered to leave by Aerys instead of participating in his first joust?  JAIME

6. Who actually recollects Harrenhal, and how upset and disillusioned he was as he was riding away, but his POV thoughts are abruptly cut short just at the point he might have revealed he rode back? JAIME

7. Who actually makes the same trip from Harrenhal, even recollects it and the Inn, then has that weirwood dream and rides back to play hero for Brienne? It's a mirror trip and he rides back.  JAIME

8. Who would definitely have to hide his identity because he was directly countermanding the King's order to ride to KL ? JAIME

9. Who was only 15 and might not have full size or bulk compared to full-blown knights? Lots of teenagers, and JAIME

10. Who actually kills Aerys, so Arys's belief that the Mystery Knight will kill him becomes a neat bit of foreshadowing?  JAIME

So you can see that even though I think Lyanna is probably the ML (I was more convinced recently because of that little Martell girl and her jousting, in that preview chapter), my definite runner up is Jaime Lannister though no one seems to take him seriously except Aerys lol and me! 

C'mon, Aerys, let me buy you a drink and you can tell me all about it.

[Wolf's Bane]

Wasn't Jaime a tall kid?  The mystery rider was of small stature.  He doesn't care about justice.  Another question.  Why would Lyanna go after those kids after she already drove them off?  It wasn't Lyanna who felt humiliated.  Getting those kids off of Howland was a victory for her.  She had no need to take it beyond this.  

[Lady Barbrey]

1 hour ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Wasn't Jaime a tall kid?  The mystery rider was of small stature.  He doesn't care about justice.  Another question.  Why would Lyanna go after those kids after she already drove them off?  It wasn't Lyanna who felt humiliated.  Getting those kids off of Howland was a victory for her.  She had no need to take it beyond this.  

We don't know he was a tall kid. And he cared about justice very much as a kid before he became disillusioned and cynical as an adult. He protects his younger brother, idolizes the Kingsguard, and was known for hating and punishing bullies.

Agree to your second point about Lyanna, and made the same point above.

[HallowedMarcus]

20 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

1. Who do we know that grew up on tales of tournaments and knights and wanted to be just like them so would love the idea of playing a Mystery Knight? JAIME

2. Who besides Lyanna in the story has a reputation for hating bullies and even beating up some bullying Squires? JAIME

3. Who does Aerys think it is? JAIME

4. Who has a reputation for helping Arthur Dayne defeat the SMILING knight so might draw someone LAUGHING, as in last laugh and one-upmanship, on a hand drawn shield to represent his claim to fame (and Howland's with the tree)? JAIME

5.Who was seriously pissed off when ordered to leave by Aerys instead of participating in his first joust?  JAIME

6. Who actually recollects Harrenhal, and how upset and disillusioned he was as he was riding away, but his POV thoughts are abruptly cut short just at the point he might have revealed he rode back? JAIME

7. Who actually makes the same trip from Harrenhal, even recollects it and the Inn, then has that weirwood dream and rides back to play hero for Brienne? It's a mirror trip and he rides back.  JAIME

8. Who would definitely have to hide his identity because he was directly countermanding the King's order to ride to KL ? JAIME

9. Who was only 15 and might not have full size or bulk compared to full-blown knights? Lots of teenagers, and JAIME

10. Who actually kills Aerys, so Arys's belief that the Mystery Knight will kill him becomes a neat bit of foreshadowing?  JAIME

Congratulations. I have never, ever thought about it. You might be right.

[Lady Barbrey]

1 hour ago, HallowedMarcus said:

Congratulations. I have never, ever thought about it. You might be right.

Thanks HallowedMarcus!  There's actually even more I could put in, such as the curious Lothston shield he finds in the Harrenhal armory and thinks about donning it so he can be 'No one'.  Brienne's got that shield now.  And you'd think after all these years, he'd have bragged about it, but who do we know didn't tell anyone for years that he killed Aerys to save thousands of people?  JAIME again.

Character, motive, ability, symbols, mirrored situations.

I actually think everyone at Harrenhal that day, along with Aerys, suspected it was Jaime.  I'm pretty sure Yandel did, because he's pretty quick to dismiss Aerys's suspicions without giving a reason why except something about him doing his duty, an obvious suck up to the Lannisters/Baratheons.

The height thing is a sticking point for many people but I looked it up.  It varies so much you have to look at averages.  Most boys reach final growth at 16.5 years.  During that last growth spurt they're often growing 4" a year.  So, as an example, say tall is 6', average is 5'10", and short is 5'8". If Jaime reaches tall height of 6 feet at 16.5 years, he'd be a little under 5'8" at 15.  Short.

I doubt George looked at averages but he'd be fully aware, as I am, of boy growth spurts.  Moreover, Yandel does not call him short, just slight, which might mean slender only, whereas Howland does call him short in the tale to his kids, but he has a vested interest in that detail, because he wants his kids to think it might be him.

Remember Howland goes to the lakeside to pray to the Isle of Faces for a champion? Jaime may have overheard him.

But the problem area for me is that Jaime thinks of Harrenhal quite a bit, but never gives a definite hint he was the MK, even though George himself keeps hinting at it. I'd think we'd get at least one tiny thing in Jaime's POV after 5 books, unless he's blocked it or it was so negligible he doesn't remember it as important.

 

[Finley McLeod]

George Martin got the idea for the tourney from Sir Walter Scott's Ivanhoe.  The mystery knight was a disinherited young man in that novel.  Who might that be in this story?  Rhaegar and Jaime?

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

On 9/30/2018 at 11:06 PM, Sly Wren said:

Right--but we know for a fact he did not object when, at Duskendale, Tywin ordered the troops to attack. 

The Darklyns had said they'd kill Aerys if Tywin attacked. The council makes exactly that objection to Tywin. He answers that yes, maybe that will happen, but if so, they have an able king ready to take the throne.

He then points at Rhaegar. And the World Book makes no mention of Rhaegar's objecting to this. Like Tywin, he was willing to use the Darklyns' rebellion to get them to kill his father. Like Tywin does in a different way with the Freys. 

Rhaegar wants his father dead--he's just being clever about how he gets it done--waiting until he can use someone else's grievance to do it for him.  He believes he will bring the prince that was promised--a kind of revolution. The Darklyns failed to kill Aerys--Barristan's completely insane rescue mission actually worked. 

But Rhaegar has not stopped plotting--Harrenhal tells us that.

Those are not proof of Rhaegar plotting to kill his father.  Rhaegar is not the best person when it comes to strategy.  It can simply mean he trusted Tywin's opinion.  

[Lady Barbrey]

10 hours ago, Arkady Renko said:

George Martin got the idea for the tourney from Sir Walter Scott's Ivanhoe.  The mystery knight was a disinherited young man in that novel.  Who might that be in this story?  Rhaegar and Jaime?

Well Ivanhoe has a tourney but there are lots of them in Arthuriana too.  There's even the musical Camelot that Martin is satirizing - "Tis spring, tis spring, the merrie month of may" - a tournament season where lovers get together and and the world is renewed after winter - but of course this is a "false spring" because it happens at the end of the year, which should be winter but isn't with crazy Westeros seasons, and the summer king Rhaegar, who should be partnered with May or spring queen Ashara Dayne, gives his roses to the winter queen, Lyanna Stark, instead, and everything else we see is full of lies, or false, as well.

Such a slippery fable.

So yes, Ivanhoe is an influence, particularly the false identities and behind the scenes politics going on.  If we posit Jaime as disinherited knight Ivanhoe, the similarities are pretty striking, because anglo saxon Ivanhoe was disinherited by his father for being loyal to and fighting for the norman King (Jaime joining the Kingsguard loyal to Aerys and automatic disinheritance), and for wanting to marry his father's ward who grew up a sister to him (Cersei). 

But as far as the Mystery Knight is concerned, I think also of the story of Lancelot and Elaine, because of its emphasis on how he got the weaponry and armour to fight in disguise.  Moreover, Lancelot borrows a shield from Elaine's brother, and it is a pure white shield. The borrowing of the shield might play a part, but it was the pure whiteness of it that drew my attention.

How did the MK's shield get painted? We saw Brienne get the Lothston one painted and it wasn't easy. It's not simple to paint over whatever heraldic device might be on it, waiting for things to dry when There's a time constraint, then painting on the weirwood and face, etc. No quick dry paints in the Middle Ages.

But it would be relatively simple if you started out with a plain, pure white shield. A pot of black paint to delineate the outlines of a simple white weirwood tree, and a pot of red to paint in eyes and mouth. No layering, just a simple line drawing on a pure white shield.

Who has pure white shields?  Every member of the Kingsguard, including Jaime.

With stories like Ivanhoe and the Arthur cycle, it's really easy to get caught up in their details and believe they're pointing to a particular character, and because George definitely is drawing inspiration from them, they're even more treacherous.  That's why I prefer sometimes to look past the romance and story and just look at the mechanics and very general themes or commonalities.

From reading many of these stories, a few commonalities with both Ivanhoe and Lancelot:

*Mystery Knights are generally not thought to be there: Ivanhoe and Lance were both thought to be elsewhere. Fits Jaime but perhaps others we don't know about.  The only other person of note that is specifically not there is Tywin, a .possible 'shadow host'. Tywin was not the MK, of course, but it's interesting that the two people very pointedly elsewhere are Lannisters, contenders as suspects for two mysteries, the 'shadow host' and the 'mystery knight', at Harrenhal

*they don't tend to fight for their own honour but for someone else's. Howland

*there is a woman and her relative involved in finding concealing armour for the MK. Probably Lyanna and Benjen, sworn to secrecy. And as we saw with Brienne and Jaime and the Lothston shield, there is an old armory at Harrenhal that could be pillaged for the necessary bits, which Benjen likely knew about when he said he could find the equipment.  Things get simple if we posit a Stark or Lyanna herself as the MK, but doesn't rule out another who volunteers.  The problem is Brandon, and Ned at 18, both seem like full-blown adults not likely to be considered slight, Benjen is just too young at 12 or thereabouts, so Lyanna, if it was a Stark, seems the best bet, and if it wasn't a Stark we're looking for a short man or a teenager under 16 not at full bulk yet (more like Loras perhaps, slender but strong).  So that leaves Lyanna, and the only one of the right age we know about, Jaime, or some unidentified shorter/slighter man. Howland is ruled out because he himself says he's not up to it (unless the green men gave him unnatural strength and skills after his prayer!)

*the woman who helps with the armour, and specifically the shield in the Lance tale, falls in love with the MK, but he loves someone else, in both Ivanhoe and the Lancelot tales.  Okay, so things get messy with this, and it might be a road better not travelled.  It points to Lyanna having a crush on Jaime not Rhaegar if the MK is Jaime but he loves Cersei.  If the MK is Lyanna and we reverse genders, it points to someone with a crush on Lyanna helping Benjen with the armour, likely Howland or someone unspecified but she already loves or is promised to someone else, Rhaegar or Robert.  Direct parallels are treacherous, as said before, and because we know so little, it's hard to untangle this one.  I'm also skeptical of any kind of 'true romance' at Harrenhal once the fable hits the glare of Martin's realistic reveal.  

If we put Jaime in as MK, however, it is not inconceivable that he overhears Howland praying for a champion at the lakeside, rides away to the Inn of the Crossroads disillusioned and bitter as he was when ordered away, thinks on it, and decides on one last idealistic, romantic adventure before committing himself to the hollow victory of becoming a Kingsguard as he now perceives it, riding back at night incognito, finding Howland, who enlists the aid of Lyanna and Benjen to find armour and paint his shield. If he kept his face hidden, they might not even have known it was Jaime, or maybe they did as we've never had their POVs regarding the incident.  Sworn to secrecy even from Ned, because it was a literal death sentence if he was found out.

This is all in my imagination, of course, but if it was Jaime, something like this must have happened.

If it was Lyanna, things are simpler because we know she already knew about Howland wanting a champion.

Thematically, however, with Ivanhoe and the Arthur tales, once again the best fit is simply JAIME.

Sorry about the ramble, sorry for being so off-topic, Sly Wren. The main topic seems to have paused, and this tangent came up so I went with it.  It should really be a separate topic in a thread, but just a slight mention it might not have been Lyanna brings out so much opposition I'm afeared.  I will leave this here now though, and consider whether to post it.

[Victor Newman]

I cannot think of anyone present who would go to such trouble for the honor of a crannog man except Mance Rayder.  He would do something like that to impress the girl.  This fellow walked from the wall to Winterfell just to see Robert with his own eyes.  He managed to get himself on the escort for his lord commander's visit to Winterfell years before.  It's obvious, this fellow has a strong connection to the Starks.  

[Sly Wren]

On September 30, 2018 at 11:21 PM, superunknown5 said:

Nice observations, very compelling @Sly Wren

Cheers, mate! 

On October 1, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

Martin prepares his readers.  He doesn't leave us guessing in the absence of clues.  But he also will not give us solid proof until he's ready to reveal the information.

On October 1, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

Ned's was heavily medicated when he recalled the fight.  We should make allowances for poor memory and unreliable information.  Like maybe the fight didn't go down that way.  We only have Ned's fevered dream and the tale from the Reeds.  It's not much to go on.

Agreed--it is tantalizing, though. And I do think he's given a lot of potential clues. The hard part is figuring out which ones are relevant.

On October 1, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

You really stoked the imagination of your readers.  This is great work.

Thanks! 

[Sly Wren]

On October 1, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Seams said:

We had some discussion of this in @Curled Finger's thread, started in Jan. 2018, about the Little Crannogman. Two of the three Houses are obscure, in so far as ASOIAF is concerned; the third House is Frey.

 : a pitchfork (House Haigh), two porcupines (House Blount) and the double-castle known as the Twins (House Frey). The pitchfork and porcupine might be "stick 'em with the pointy end" allusions. There are some hay and straw symbols through the books (Bran has a guard named Hayhead, Brienne's hair is like straw, Tommen is defeated by a hay-stuffed jousting dummy at Joffrey's name day tourney). The only significant fork I can think of is given to Arya by the sailors on the Titan's Daughter, along with a floppy hat and a fingerless glove.

1. My apologies for the delay--a family medical crisis struck.

2. I agree on the bolded--though I had not thought of seeing it from the symbolic angle--I like that muchly.

3. I also think, though, that the fact we are shown that all three houses will commit horrors against the Starks on behalf of the Lannisters has to be significant. We also have the three sigils in the same novel where Tywin reinstates Boros Blount for absolutely no discernible reason--the Lannisters are tied to the sigils. I think they are a clue to the start of the war and who "took" Lyanna.

On October 1, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Seams said:

Two of the houses are in the River lands and House Blount is in the Crown lands. Of course, we do see Ser Boros Blount as kind of a marginal member of the kingsguard, dismissed but reinstated. His role there may be somehow linked back to the behavior of his ancestor's mean squire a generation earlier. Maybe Ser Boros was the mean squire?

Actually, I think Boros might have been the knight. When Jorah tells Dany his Lynesse love story, he brags that his adoration for Lynesse gave him the strength to defeat "even" Ser Boros Blount. Boros is notable for nothing in the current story (other than cowardice and child beating). But apparently beaten him at jousting was notable right after Robert's Rebellion. Boris would have been old enough to have been the Porcupine Knight, too.

On October 1, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Seams said:

Maybe we will see a more prominent member of House Haigh in the last books. I think they are married into the Frey family - yes, a granddaughter in his Royce-descended line (Lord Walder's first wife) married a Haigh. For what it's worth, just taking a quick look at that part of the Frey family tree, I see a number of surnames that appear to be part of the gathering scheduled for the Vale in an upcoming book. Maybe that gathering will shed some retroactive light on the Harrenhal tourney.

Yup! The Haighs "help" at the Red Wedding. And one of the Haighs complains to Roose about King Robb. The Haighs as Frey vassals are also Lannister lackeys--who do Tywin's dirty work for him. 

On October 1, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Seams said:

One more observation about the Harrenhal tourney: it seems as if we are given very little information about the tourney itself. Since GRRM uses jousting and melees to foreshadow elements of the plot, and we know that Harrenhal was a key moment for igniting the conflicts that are central to ASOIAF, it seems important that he gives us the names of only two victors: The Knight of the Laughing Tree and Rhaegar. Rhaegar beats some really important, named knights, yet Rhaegar dies before our story opens and he never becomes king. I know GRRM can sometimes be indirect, and a victory can take more than one form, but this plot and life outcome for Rhaegar doesn't seem to fit the pattern he uses elsewhere for men who become champions at a tourney.

Interesting--it's the same logic I use for why the three defeated knight are important, so I'm inclined to go with you on this.

What specifically do you think Martin is doing with this?

On October 1, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Seams said:

The other thing that intrigues me is that we are told in The Hedge Knight that the kingsguard members cannot do anything to hurt a member of the royal family in a Trial of Seven and, presumably, also a jousting match. Prince Baelor tells Dunk this will give them some leverage against Prince Aerion / Maekar's team, because several of Aerion / Maekar's Trial of Seven fighters are kingsguard members and will not be able to fight Baelor. At Harrenhal, Rhaegar's final two opponents are Dayne and Selmy, both in the kingsguard.

The KotLT defeats unknown, unnamed, obscure people but Rhaegar defeats named, key characters with larger roles in the story. What is that GRRM up to?

A good question--though I would say that the KofLT's defeated are notable in the story where they are mentioned: in Storm, they are used against the Starks to horrific effect--by Tywin. 

On October 1, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Seams said:

P.S. The tourney in The Hedge Knight (Ashford Meadow) also begins with the Queen of Love and Beauty format. (We are told that the sponsor or host of the tourney gets to choose the format or stakes, and the kind with the symbolic Queen is one option among several.) Is the Harrenhal tourney the only other tourney with the Queen format? Oh, nope. I just remembered that Ser Jorah gets to crown Lynesse Hightower at Lannisport. The Ashford Meadow tourney seems never to reach a conclusion, crowning a new queen, although three of the five champions defending Lord Ashford's daughter remain undefeated. We are not told anything about the second day of jousting when Dunk is imprisoned and I think the Trial of Seven displaces the last day of the tourney. So Lyanna and Lynesse are the only crowned queens of Love and Beauty, so far as I can recall.

Interesting--are you thinking Lynesse might give us info on Lyanna? Something else? 

[Sly Wren]

On October 1, 2018 at 5:20 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

Arthur Dayne is a champion of fairness.  Is it possible for him to join the tournament in disguise to fight for Howland?  Reed was outclassed and out of his comfort zone.  He was too small to defend himself against teenage boys.  The little man had no chance against seasoned knights.  Arthur would see the injustice in this and took matters in his own hands.  Do we have an account of the mystery knight and Arthur being seen at the same time?

I'm liking this idea a lot--though not sure we have an account of Arthur's height.

Arya doesn't note Ned/Edric Dayne's height, so I'm guessing he's just normal.

On October 5, 2018 at 12:21 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

So you can see that even though I think Lyanna is probably the ML (I was more convinced recently because of that little Martell girl and her jousting, in that preview chapter), my definite runner up is Jaime Lannister though no one seems to take him seriously except Aerys lol and me! 

I'm liking this a lot--though I think drinking with Aerys is a really, really bad idea.

So, you are thinking that the laughing tree sigil is a straight up misdirect and not a clue?

On October 5, 2018 at 11:28 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

But the problem area for me is that Jaime thinks of Harrenhal quite a bit, but never gives a definite hint he was the MK, even though George himself keeps hinting at it. I'd think we'd get at least one tiny thing in Jaime's POV after 5 books, unless he's blocked it or it was so negligible he doesn't remember it as important.

Yes--that does seem key. And Jaime is really, really bitter about the aftermath of his ascension to the Kingsguard. If he'd pulled off this stunt, seems like he might be less bitter about that tourney.

On October 6, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

Sorry about the ramble, sorry for being so off-topic, Sly Wren. The main topic seems to have paused, and this tangent came up so I went with it.  It should really be a separate topic in a thread, but just a slight mention it might not have been Lyanna brings out so much opposition I'm afeared.  I will leave this here now though, and consider whether to post it.

HA! No worries--my threads always end up being sandboxes for some reason.

Since the basic premise of my thread is that narrative precedent may be telling us about the tower, the backstory of Lyanna and the tourney seems germane. All good. 

[Sly Wren]

On October 6, 2018 at 8:23 AM, Enuma Elish said:

Those are not proof of Rhaegar plotting to kill his father.  Rhaegar is not the best person when it comes to strategy.  It can simply mean he trusted Tywin's opinion.  

Right--but he went along with Tywin's plot. That "opinion" guaranteed Aerys' death. Tywin says so--that Aerys will most likely die.

And Rhaegar doesn't stop him--he goes along with the plan that will kill his own father and put himself on the throne.  

If Rhaegar had protested, he had clout to push back against Tywin--many in Aerys' council doesn't want to go with Tywin's plan. But Rhaegar does nothing--he's down with killing his father. 

As for strategy--Rhaegar tries it again at Harrenhal, probably with Tywin's backing. One way or another, Rhaegar plots against his father repeatedly.

[Lady Barbrey]

2 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

 

I'm liking this a lot--though I think drinking with Aerys is a really, really bad idea.

So, you are thinking that the laughing tree sigil is a straight up misdirect and not a clue?

Yes--that does seem key. And Jaime is really, really bitter about the aftermath of his ascension to the Kingsguard. If he'd pulled off this stunt, seems like he might be less bitter about that tourney.

HA! No worries--my threads always end up being sandboxes for some reason.

Since the basic premise of my thread is that narrative precedent may be telling us about the tower, the backstory of Lyanna and the tourney seems germane. All good. 

Thanks Sly Wren!  I will answer your questions: the sigil refers to both Howland as the tree and Jaime as the laughing face/laughing knight who helped defeat the Smiling Knight.

You're right, it is the key, as I said too... but do you remember how Jaime says he 'goes away into himself' when things are too disturbing and he can be no one?  And he has this observation when he looks at the Lothston shield and decides to wear it, because there is nobody left from that House anymore, so he can be no one?  'No one's cousin, no one's enemy, no one's sworn sworn...in sum, no one." I mean that's what a mystery knight is, no one, and if we think of Arya, that's how to be good at disguises, to be no one.

I guess I'm just wondering if he might have split his consciousness, that he doesn't think of the Mystery Knight consciously anymore, because that's where he goes, that's who he is, when he escapes inside himself, that last shred of who he once was that takes him very far from Rhaella's screams as Aerys rapes her?

It would be a little deeper than I've seen George go psychoanalytically, but everything else just fits, and actually this kind of fits too.

[Sly Wren]

11 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Thanks Sly Wren!  I will answer your questions: the sigil refers to both Howland as the tree and Jaime as the laughing face/laughing knight who helped defeat the Smiling Knight.

Workable--though it would mean Jaime somehow had to hear about this skirmish. . . .

But we do know he's willing to take the "law into his own hands" when he attacks Ned outside the brothel, though that attack is for his brother. Still, Jaime likes to be the hero for the underdog, especially when he's idolizing Arthur Dayne.

11 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

You're right, it is the key, as I said too... but do you remember how Jaime says he 'goes away into himself' when things are too disturbing and he can be no one?  And he has this observation when he looks at the Lothston shield and decides to wear it, because there is nobody left from that House anymore, so he can be no one?  'No one's cousin, no one's enemy, no one's sworn sworn...in sum, no one." I mean that's what a mystery knight is, no one, and if we think of Arya, that's how to be good at disguises, to be no one.

I guess I'm just wondering if he might have split his consciousness, that he doesn't think of the Mystery Knight consciously anymore, because that's where he goes, that's who he is, when he escapes inside himself, that last shred of who he once was that takes him very far from Rhaella's screams as Aerys rapes her?

Ah--so, sort of like Theon and Reek? Maybe.

And we do see him long to be more like Arthur though he thinks he's actually become the Smiling Knight--if I squint, that could be a nod to the split personality.

It's a stretch, but not impossible--we even have him be the one thinking about how to be a good jouster in Feast and how he can't any more.

11 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

It would be a little deeper than I've seen George go psychoanalytically, but everything else just fits, and actually this kind of fits too.

Not sure "everything else" fits--need to know if anyone saw him at King's Landing. If he actually went back. If so, the theory is sunk. And we still have his disappointment at not being in the tourney--he's still sore about that years later. If he'd pulled this off, seems like he might have been less sore. . .. 

But I'd love it to be Jaime. It would fit nicely with the Smiling Knight/Arthur Dayne binary he sees in his own personality.

[Seams]

On 10/7/2018 at 11:23 PM, Sly Wren said:

1. My apologies for the delay--a family medical crisis struck.

2. I agree on the bolded--though I had not thought of seeing it from the symbolic angle--I like that muchly.

3. I also think, though, that the fact we are shown that all three houses will commit horrors against the Starks on behalf of the Lannisters has to be significant. We also have the three sigils in the same novel where Tywin reinstates Boros Blount for absolutely no discernible reason--the Lannisters are tied to the sigils. I think they are a clue to the start of the war and who "took" Lyanna.

No worries. Sometimes these discussions are better after they've been on hold for awhile and warmed up, like leftover lasagna. I hope your family member is o.k.

I think you meant to highlight this sentence, about the sigils of the knights attached to the three squire-bullies, but deleted it by mistake:

Quote

My guess is that the sigils are what is important in deciphering their role in the story:

I've been pondering the significance of porcupines and hedgehogs, especially because Lord Stark is described as prickly in the released excerpt from the Fire & Blood book. Robert Baratheon told Ned Stark that his sigil should be a hedgehog because he gets so prickly whenever he tries to find out who was the mother of Ned's bastard, Jon Snow. As we all know, because we never do anything but read the wiki and post in this forum, House Wode already has a hedgehog sigil and their house words are, "Touch me not" -- a good fit for this notion of being prickly and unwilling to share personal information. It might also be worth noting that House Wode maybe sworn to Harrenhal, that "wode" is a kind of blue dye made from plants (perhaps alluding to blue dye used by Young Griff, Griff and/or Daario) and that "Touch Me Not" is the name of another flower, like Widow's Wail. All seeming to hover around the Harrenhal / Mystery Knight / Lyanna constellation of symbols. I suspect GRRM also wants to combine hedge + hog for some reason, with the former alluding to hedge knights (who seem to be loyal to themselves and to the earth, for the most part, sleeping under the stars) and hogs (associated with boars, bacon and farm animals that are a motif I haven't yet analyzed, aside from the Boar's Head Festival symbolism around Robb Stark's death and the boar that kills Robert).

Porcupines are not the same as hedgehogs, of course, but I include them because, aside from the quills, pork + pine may be another combination that GRRM wants to put before the reader. This would use the pig allusion again, but perhaps in combination with pine trees. That would lead us to recall that pine trees have needles, as do people who do embroidery along with Arya Stark and her unique sword, Needle. It might also tie into the sharp / shaggy theme that GRRM has included as a subset of his large hair / heir motif.

More needles. If anyone can stand another related sigil, I would note, too, that House Penrose has a sigil of two crossed quills, as in quill pens made out of feathers. Our best-known Penrose is Ser Cortnay, who is the castellan of Storm's End and guardian of Edric Storm, natural son of Robert Baratheon. It's a stretch, but the prickly sigils may somehow tie together whatever incipient bastard is conceived as a result of the events at Harrenhal, Ned Stark in his determination to keep Jon Snow's lineage hidden, the blue-dyed Young Griff, Edric Storm and Tommen Baratheon, for whom Ser Boros Blount (porcupine sigil) becomes a food tester.

Don't feel compelled to comment on all this. I realize it could be entirely tangential to the more important questions about the Knight of the Laughing Tree story. I would love it if it would lead to some revelation about the mysteries at the tourney but I realize this kind of close reading and inference isn't everyone's cup of tea.

Quote

One more observation about the Harrenhal tourney: it seems as if we are given very little information about the tourney itself. Since GRRM uses jousting and melees to foreshadow elements of the plot, and we know that Harrenhal was a key moment for igniting the conflicts that are central to ASOIAF, it seems important that he gives us the names of only two victors: The Knight of the Laughing Tree and Rhaegar. Rhaegar beats some really important, named knights, yet Rhaegar dies before our story opens and he never becomes king. I know GRRM can sometimes be indirect, and a victory can take more than one form, but this plot and life outcome for Rhaegar doesn't seem to fit the pattern he uses elsewhere for men who become champions at a tourney.

The KotLT defeats unknown, unnamed, obscure people but Rhaegar defeats named, key characters with larger roles in the story. What is that GRRM up to?

 

On 10/7/2018 at 11:23 PM, Sly Wren said:

Interesting--it's the same logic I use for why the three defeated knight are important, so I'm inclined to go with you on this.

What specifically do you think Martin is doing with this?

A good question--though I would say that the KofLT's defeated are notable in the story where they are mentioned: in Storm, they are used against the Starks to horrific effect--by Tywin.

I've written two responses to this part of the discussion and set both of them aside. My latest thinking is that the jousting and the feast have to be considered as one tournament. We also have to include Lyanna using a tourney sword to end the beating the squires were inflicting on the little crannogman. Harrenhal is a co-ed tournament not necessarily because Lyanna literally wears the armor of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but because the drinking and throwing drinks and dancing and bullying incident are all of a piece with the jousting. Like other tourneys, the Harrenhal tourney foreshadows events that will arise.

You point out that all three of the Houses defeated by the Knight of the Laughing Tree participated in the surprise attack on Robb Stark and his bannermen at the Red Wedding. I came up with a tiny anagram possibility that might support the idea the victories of the KotLT were no more and no less than a set-up for the Red Wedding:

Haigh + Blount + Frey = Ignoble hath fury

The anagram might be just a coincidence, but I find that GRRM uses anagrams fairly often with names of obscure knights. And this one fits so many details of what we know will happen with those three Houses. He didn't have to give us any names of the bullies, if the point of the story was just to show the bond between House Reed and House Stark. He chose a House that plays a big role but paired it with two relatively obscure names for reasons we have not been able to discover. If the anagram is correct, the sigil symbolism I so tortuously tried to examine (above) may be either beside the point or constructed afterward to fit other plot points or sets of symbols that connect to other moments in the plot.

"Ignoble" can mean "not honorable in character or purpose," which exactly describes the three squires in their treatment of the little crannogman. Of course, the KotLT insists that the defeated knights teach their squires honor, so there we see a command to counteract ignobility. The "hath fury" part seems like part of the famous line, "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." It's a warning about revenge.

Since the Red Wedding massacre is inflicted on House Stark, I believe the "fury" of the ignoble houses is directed at House Stark because of the "defeat" delivered by Lyanna to the squires, not the victory of the mystery knight over the knights. Readers suspect Lyanna of being the mystery knight because GRRM may want us to focus on the unmasked, openly acknowledged victory she already delivered. On the other hand, if the KotLT was someone other than Lyanna, it might be that there is a "Part II" of the ignoble fury that has not yet been delivered. (Or maybe it was delivered when the Freys and their bannermen fought on Robb Stark's side against the Lannister army, before Robb married Jeyne Westerling.)

I should add, I am willing to be persuaded by @Lady Barbrey's Jaime = KotLT logic in this thread. I think that would be a really interesting possibility. Jaime struggles with the choice between honor and glory (his two horses). If he was the mystery knight at Harrenhal, it means he joined the King's Guard and then immediately defied an order from the King to go back to King's Landing. So he would not be acting honorably, but he would be preaching honor to the defeated knights and their squires. Delicious irony.

But how do the jousting and the feast combine to become one big clump of foreshadowing? As I mentioned early in this thread, I think Ashara Dayne is supposed to be compared to Brienne of Tarth. We see other women in combat but (until the release of the Fire & Blood excerpt a few days ago) we have seen only Brienne compete in a tourney. We have seen "dance" used as a metaphor for combat, though, in the so-called Dance of the Dragons civil war and in Arya's training to become a waterdancer. When GRRM describes the maid with the laughing purple eyes dancing with a string of partners, I think we are supposed to see them as people she defeats in a jousting match. Perhaps it is left for us to guess whether she defeats the quiet wolf in the last dance, or whether he is the victor in that match.

Another apparent competition at the feast seems to have been won by a Baratheon, who is presumed to be Robert:

The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war.

I have the feeling that House Baratheon adopting the Durran Godsgrief sigil and words and the title of Storm Lord is a bit of hubris that is not recognized by whatever gods might be in charge of such things. I don't think Robert was at the Harrenhal tourney - otherwise he would have been hanging all over Lyanna and she wouldn't have been able to rescue the crannogman or focus on Rhaegar's singing. Robert also would have been the one to react when Rhaegar gave her the crown of blue roses.

My own suspicion is that the storm lord is Beric Dondarrion. It might be one of unreliable narrator misdirects that tells us that House Baratheon is the only noble house with Durrandon blood. As lords paramount, that might be what the Baratheons want people to think. Ser Beric is such a good fit for the line from Meera's description of the feast: he defeats love and death - kisses and skulls - when he takes on the multiple resurrections from Thoros of Myr. If Lem Lemoncloak is Ser Richard Lonmouth (and I believe he is) he is a major player in Beric's Brotherhood Without Banners. Of course, all of the BWB is fighting for King Robert. It's also possible that Ser Beric is a symbolic version of Robert, fighting and dying and then rising to fight again. To the point that he forgets his life and his fiance. (Who happens to be a Dayne.) Robert tells Ned that he felt dead after winning the throne.

So far then, in this analysis, our two Harrenhal victors would be Lyanna and Ser Beric. We're not sure whether Ashara or the quiet wolf is the winner of the dance competition. The KotLT is victorious, but s/he might be just a cypher for the Lyanna victory over the squires. So what about Rhaegar?

The tournament I have read most closely and most recently is in the Dunk & Egg story The Hedge Knight, and takes places at Ashford Meadow. To me, that tourney is clearly intended to foreshadow - or, perhaps, determine - the line of succession for the Targaryen kings.

(Spoilers for The Hedge Knight novella follow.)

If the Harrenhal Tourney is similarly intended to foreshadow the outcomes for Rhaegar, his fate is not exactly like any of the victors or losers at Ashford Meadow. There might be some similarities to Prince Valarr, son of Prince Baelor and second in line for the throne at Ashford Meadow. Prince Valarr challenges only weak knights who don't seem to pose much of a challenge for a young man. Since two of Rhaegar's three opponents are members of the King's Guard who are not supposed to harm any members of the royal family, you could make a case that the jousting matches described for the reader are not very challenging for Rhaegar, or that the outcome is a foregone conclusion. I know that Ser Barristan doesn't indicate that he threw the match, but we do know that he was a very dutiful member of the white cloaks. On the other hand, Barristan did defeat Rhaegar at a tourney at Storm's End some years earlier.

We are not told that Prince Valarr loses at Ashford Meadow, but he never becomes king: he and his brother die in the spring sickness that also kills their grandfather. His uncle, Maekar, who won his Trial of Seven "match" against Prince Baelor (because eventually Baelor dies of a blow delivered by Maekar), instead succeeds to the throne.

As with participants such as the two Humfreys, Rhaegar's opponents are not in line for the crown. I have come up with some ideas about the symbolism of the Battle of Humfrey, so I would look for a similar analysis of the symbols in Rhaegar's opponents. There is Brandon Stark (direwolf), Arthur Dayne (white shield but House Dayne is a white sword and a falling star), and Barristan Selmy (white shield, again, but House Selmy's sigil is three stalks of wheat).

It's possible but shocking that Rhaegar really did defeat Ser Barristan, even with both men doing their best to win. If so, the symbolism that amazes me is that Ser Barristan represents the Stranger - essentially the god of death. So Rhaegar leaves Harrenhal as a victor over death. Yet he soon dies in single combat.

Arthur Dayne is The Sword of the Morning. Does his defeat by Rhaegar represent Rhaegar conquering morning? Dawn?

Maybe that's the symbolism: Rhaegar first defeats Brandon Stark. The Starks are symbolic kings of the underworld in a lot of ways, with their children playing in a crypt and the life-like images of Stark Lords presiding there. So Rhaegar might be symbolically taking the title or role of Lord of the Underworld when he defeats Brandon. Then he defeats morning / dawn and then he defeats death / the Stranger. Then he awards the blue roses to Lyanna - it is very much a Hades / Persephone situation - I know I'm not the first to point that out in this forum.

Ned later tells Robert that Lyanna belonged in Winterfell and/or the Winterfell crypt, not buried on a sunny hillside that Robert would have preferred. So wouldn't the Starks have found it appropriate if Rhaegar wanted Lyanna to be the queen of the Underworld? Maybe the anger was that Brandon saw that as his birthright, not a title to be awarded to his baby sister. Ironically, they end up together in the crypt, along with their father.

This is somewhat stream-of-consciousness and unpolished, but I have to end it for the time being.

[Rufus Snow]

12 hours ago, Seams said:

My own suspicion is that the storm lord is Beric Dondarrion.

Data point: Beric was only 21 at the Hand's Tourney; that makes him 4 or 5 years old at the time of the Harrenhal tourney.