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Sly Wren

GRRM Already Told Us the Tower of Joy Backstory: Wrong Joy, No Hiding, and Fight Elsewhere.

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14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Could the old legends have to do with a Valyrian daughter being stolen and used to either create dragons or the Others?

Might even fit with the Bael Tale--supposedly being used to continue the dying Stark line.

With the above--are you thinking human sacrifice to create dragons/Others? As Dany does with MMD?

Or more like Nan's tale of the women who lie with the Others?

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--of all the people who end up with Stark Maids in the current stay, Baelish is the most. . . Bael-ish. Actively wants a Stark maid--once he finds on he can get.

Not just any Stark maid, though - the one who most resembles her mother. I doubt that's a coincidence.

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

But if this were so, why not take her and flee? If Sansa has become his main focus, sticking around Westeros and continuing his plan for domination seems odd considering how much money he seems to have.

Because if he took her and fled, that would be a damning admission of guilt and then he wouldn't get off scot-free?

I'm not sure if domination is his plan. Frankly, I'm not entirely sure exactly what his plan is but I'd bet money that whatever it is, it doesn't involve getting caught.

 

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On 9/9/2018 at 2:50 PM, Sly Wren said:

Absolutely.

My point about the above is the specificity: A stolen Stark maid and a Bael-ish at a run down, unnamed tower; knights sworn to a fallen ruler keeping to their mission, confronted by a Usurper's dog, with a Stark maid hostage; and a knight with Dayne imagery trying to defend a hopeless situation and arguing about the wisdom of doing so in a tower.

These seem less than just general situations in the novels. They seem specific.

Okay--I completely screwed up explaining my point. Very sorry.

1. Without question, Ned fights the KG at the tower Rhaegar is said to have called the tower of joy.

2. My point--no one was in the tower at the time of the fight--it was used, at the time of the fight, simply as a meeting point in the Prince's Pass.

3. This fits with Baelish's tower clues: only stay with the Stark maid at the run-down tower for a very short time, then move her to an comfy castle with white stone towers.

4. And it fits with Dunk's incident--he knows he can't defeat the Widow. He knows he can't fight a superior force at the ground he wants to defend. So, he leaves that ground, goes to a prearranged location, parlays and fights. 

Dunk even tells Ser Bennis, whom the Widow is particularly angry with, to stay behind at Standfast. And that if Dunk isn't back by a certain time, Bennis should assume they are dead and run like hell for help.

I fully agree--but these don't seem to be "well-worn" motifs in the novels. 

Taking a Stolen Stark Maid to a run-down tower--seems specific. Especially since Baelish could have taken her anywhere else--Martin did NOT have to choose that setting. Nor have Lysa marry Baelish there. Nor have everyone hear her cries during sex for a baby. Nor later die falling from a white stone tower. It really seems like it's there to make a point.

The convo between the brotherhood and the Hound with Arya there--again--that's specific. And, again, no need in the plot for it to go down that way.

And Martin's having Dunk, so clearly tied to Dayne symbolism, comment on the wisdom of fighting in a tower--he could have made his point about Dunk's worthiness, etc. in a lot of other ways.

He included that tower element knowing full well what fans thought about the tower of joy--it's less on point than Sansa's or Arya's parts, in my opinion, but it still seems worth considering.

It doesn't have to be a ruined tower.  We are not sure what the physical conditions of the tower of joy was.  Speaking of the tower's condition.  It seems a big waste of time to destroy a tower because of grief.  Grieving is not normally a time when someone is feeling energetic. 

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What made Brandon so furious when Rhaegar gave the crown of roses to his sister?  Rickard's plan to marry his children to the other great houses is well-known.  The Starks are prickly and easily offended.  Walder Frey is not the only one who takes insults seriously.  A spectator would take Rhaegar's behavior to mean he's making an attempt to prevent the marriage of Lyanna to House Baratheon. 

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48 minutes ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

What made Brandon so furious when Rhaegar gave the crown of roses to his sister?  Rickard's plan to marry his children to the other great houses is well-known.  The Starks are prickly and easily offended.  Walder Frey is not the only one who takes insults seriously.  A spectator would take Rhaegar's behavior to mean he's making an attempt to prevent the marriage of Lyanna to House Baratheon. 

We have not only the example of Brandon's reaction, and Walder Frey's reaction, but many others to interference in a Lord's right to negotiate a betrothal and for that marriage pact to be respected by the other party, and for his or her children to follow through on his commitments. Tywin's reaction to Tyrion's marriage, both Aegon V and the Laughing Storm's reaction to Duncan's marriage to Jenny, Hoster estrangement with the Blackfish, Hoster's reaction to Baelish's suit for marriage to the pledged Catelyn, and many, many more examples. Many of us have long believed Brandon's reaction is more to Rhaegar publicly declaring his interference to the pact with Robert, and thereby interfering in his father's rights and his own future rights as the High Lord of the North than it is an outrage over the "honor" that Rhaegar bestows on Lyanna. That does not mean there are more than one thing going on in this gesture. The brothers may know that Lyanna has some attraction to Rhaegar, and disapprove of any moves, publicly or private, that could cast doubt on their Father's word to Robert. Of course, Brandon doesn't seem to care about his own activities with other women, but that only shows his character. In short, I'm believe in the so-called "Brandon is a douche" theory.

Please note that when Brandon rides into the Red Keep and shouts out for Rhaegar to "come out and die" we are not told anything about any shouts for his sister or her well being. Which begs the question, did he issue his challenge for a duel in the same manner as the Laughing Storm thinking Aerys would honor it and because of the same reason - the right of his marriage contract to be honored regardless of Prince Duncan's, or in this case Lyanna's feelings in the matter.

Edited by SFDanny

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2 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Not just any Stark maid, though - the one who most resembles her mother. I doubt that's a coincidence.

Agreed. I've wondered if Baelish had thought he might be able to wrangle Cat into loving him once he took down Ned and blew up the country--then turned to Sansa when that looked unlikely. . . 

2 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Because if he took her and fled, that would be a damning admission of guilt and then he wouldn't get off scot-free?

Very possible--though Cersei and everyone else seem laser focused on Tyrion's guilt--and Sansa's.

Plus, if all Baelish wanted to do was stick around and feign innocence, why keep going with his plans? He has a plan for the Vale knights--planned for this well ahead of time with Lysa (though not sure how much he told her) to keep the Vale Knights out of the other wars so he had them fresh.

2 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I'm not sure if domination is his plan. Frankly, I'm not entirely sure exactly what his plan is but I'd bet money that whatever it is, it doesn't involve getting caught.

Agreed--and I'm not sure exactly what his plan, either. But he does seem hell bent on taking down the Westerosi power structure: Jon Arryn, Ned, Robert, stirring up a war, Joffrey--he wants chaos and wanted it long before he saw Sansa. Arryn and Ned seem rather personal--but the rest seem about taking down others' power and creating opportunity to build up his own. 

Doesn't want to get caught--absolutely. But I don't think he's done. And I think he would have kept going, Sansa or no Sansa.

I'm guessing this is why we don't get a Baelish POV--we're supposed to keep guessing with this guy.

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1 hour ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

You know, I never really liked the R + L = J theory. 

Well--not sure my theory innately blocks RLJ--but I do think that theory is still theory.

1 hour ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

It doesn't have to be a ruined tower.  We are not sure what the physical conditions of the tower of joy was. 

True--but seems like it can't be in peak condition for Ned to be able to pull it down after a fight.

Sansa describes Baelish's tower as being very rickety and run down, but still basically inhabitable. Seems like the tower of joy really could not be in better condition than that if Ned pulled it down.

1 hour ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

Speaking of the tower's condition.  It seems a big waste of time to destroy a tower because of grief.  Grieving is not normally a time when someone is feeling energetic. 

Yes--but Ned is big on honor. He was burying his own men as well as the enemy--not going to just leave his own men to rot. Not after all this time together in the war.

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50 minutes ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

What made Brandon so furious when Rhaegar gave the crown of roses to his sister?  Rickard's plan to marry his children to the other great houses is well-known.  The Starks are prickly and easily offended.  Walder Frey is not the only one who takes insults seriously.  A spectator would take Rhaegar's behavior to mean he's making an attempt to prevent the marriage of Lyanna to House Baratheon. 

On the bolded--not sure I'm following you. If he's already married, why would people assume this? No one seems to bat an eye when eligible bachelor Loras gives betrothed Sansa a rose.

21 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

In short, I'm believe in the so-called "Brandon is a douche" theory.

HA! I'm in for this. Almost seems like there should be t-shirts.

22 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Please note that when Brandon rides into the Red Keep and shouts out for Rhaegar to "come out and die" we are not told anything about the any shouts for his sister or her well being. Which begs the question, did he issue his challenge for a duel in the same manner as the Laughing Storm thinking Aerys would honor it and because of the same reason - the right of his marriage contract to be honored regardless of Prince Duncan's, or in this case Lyanna's feelings in the matter.

Or did Brandon get misinformation--like Cat and Ned get from Lysa?

I've wondered for a while if the reason Brandon acts before Rickard does is because someone made sure to notify him ASAP--and told him Rhaegar had killed (maybe raped and killed) Lyanna. If so, that might explain why he doesn't ask for Lyanna--he's been told his baby sister and riding buddy is dead, and he's calling out the man he believes killed her.

We see how fast Jon reacts when he thinks Arya's in trouble and his plan has failed--via a baiting and misleading letter. And Jon doesn't seem to have anywhere near the reputation for hotheadedness that Brandon did.

If Brandon got baited with misinformation like Ned and Cat do, like Jon does--that might explain why Brandon acts before Rickard does--and doesn't ask for his sister.

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48 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

On the bolded--not sure I'm following you. If he's already married, why would people assume this? No one seems to bat an eye when eligible bachelor Loras gives betrothed Sansa a rose

I read somewhere -World Book, perhaps? - that his making Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty was perceived as an indication of interest in her as a mistress.  Since the QoLaB is traditionally the winner's wife or betrothed, this makes a great deal of sense in context.  Thus Brandon's anger.

On the earlier issue of everyone who knew the participants being dead or missing, that is not really the case.   Jaime, Barristtan, Cersei, and Kevan Lannister all knew Rhaegar and Ashara at least, and some knew Lyanna.  If Rhaegar were making time with Ashara, I would expect one of them to think something about it.  Plus, the Dornish might have had something to say about it as well.

I think I'm going to go with the standard understanding of these events, until and unless I'm given a good reason to do otherwise.  Which I've yet to see.

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7 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Might even fit with the Bael Tale--supposedly being used to continue the dying Stark line.

With the above--are you thinking human sacrifice to create dragons/Others? As Dany does with MMD?

Or more like Nan's tale of the women who lie with the Others?

Well i did a thread quite some time ago talking about the sacrifices of Viserys, Drogo, and Rheago in hatching her dragon eggs. 

Aside from possible order of events and amount of eggs, there is not much difference from Aegon V's attempt.

Dany was birthing Rhaego, Rhaella was birthing Rhaegar. Dany had to sacrifice her own child at least to hatch the eggs, (likely Viserys being given to the flames, and Drogo, were both sacrifices also.)

With Aegon V, Rhaegar survived. A fire broke out for some reason with Ser Duncan saving some, namely Jaehaerys II, Aerys II, Rhaella, and Rhaegar. I've pondered before if Aegon (who knew of Rhaegars pending birth and part of the known reason for the gathering) intended on sacrificing Rhaegar in that last year of his reign being consumed by dragon thoughts.

Though we never hear about how the other Targaryen's hatched their dragons. Was it from the souls of their lost family? Is it maybe tradition that when you burn your Targ dead, that you place an egg in the pyre too? Who and how was Quicksilver hatched? We know there wasn't many Targs around back then.  The body of Rhaenys wasn't returned, and that's the only dead Targaryen that i know of but

Ser Aegon Ambrose was a knight of House Ambrose and a member of the Warrior's Sons at the start of the reign of King Maegor I Targaryen

Some one appears to be spreading Dragon Seeds in the time of Aegon I. Either Aegon or Rhaenys would be my guess. So maybe they just used a dragon seed. 

Drogo doesn't appear Valyrian but all the words the Dothraki use have the Ae in them like Vaes Dothrak. And AE is traceable to Valyria. 

The Others/White Walkers are a bit trickier and hard to tell which legend is Dragon, and which is tied to the Others. Like Nissa Nissa's scream and such being reminiscent of the White Walkers getting stabbed.

But there are other legends that seem to hint at the creation of the Others by the CotF. Namely being the Curse placed on Garth's Barrow as High King of the First men, making any who try to rival him grow corpse like in appearance. This makes me think of the Grey King. (Keep in mind House Goodbrother and their legend, Grey King had a loyal brother.) Who would a man who lived for 1000 years possibly come from?

Maybe Garth the Green, god on earth? Who had green eyes, hair, and skin. The Grey King had grey eyes, grey hair, and grey skin. Who was the Brother? Some one of the New Way, some one who's more of a main lander (House Goodbrother on center of island in a forest), the difference between Antler Men (House Baratheon/Durrandon) and Walrus Men (two tribes described by Jon north of the Wall.)

As you can already tell, House Durrandon pops up. What would prompt the Grey King to go to war with his Brother Durran? Maybe stealing his bride? (Uthor legend/ Durran Legend) (Duran is also said to have lived 1000 years.)

The Grey King conquered it all. All, being North of the Wall included. For, to become true High King as Garth was in his day, you must rule beyond the Wall.

So how do you thwart the COTF?

Defeat the Grey King, and build a Wall to divide the Land. Prevent any kings beyond the Wall, and any cities for a king to rule. SO, Aerys II could never activate the curse, as he never ruled all of Westeros. (If Jon becomes king of Westeros, and King of the Wildlings, he's screwed imo.)

Though as the Corpse Queen pops up in The Night King legend, i imagine that The Grey King's Bride survived, at least untill the Brandon and Joramun. Who may have killed her, but not the Night King, who still lingers. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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16 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I read somewhere -World Book, perhaps? - that his making Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty was perceived as an indication of interest in her as a mistress.  Since the QoLaB is traditionally the winner's wife or betrothed, this makes a great deal of sense in context.  Thus Brandon's anger.

On the earlier issue of everyone who knew the participants being dead or missing, that is not really the case.   Jaime, Barristtan, Cersei, and Kevan Lannister all knew Rhaegar and Ashara at least, and some knew Lyanna.  If Rhaegar were making time with Ashara, I would expect one of them to think something about it.  Plus, the Dornish might have had something to say about it as well.

I think I'm going to go with the standard understanding of these events, until and unless I'm given a good reason to do otherwise.  Which I've yet to see.

Taken from another thread

Quote

 

Aemon the Dragon Knight, i imagine avoided offending the woman he originally wanted to crown by crowning his sister to save her honor from Aegon IV. Though, as rumor spread that Aemon and his sister had a thing, i imagine his "Crush" was likely as offended by the giving of the rose to Naerys as Ashara was to Lyanna getting her's. 

Edit- 

If Loras could've given the rose to his "Crush" instead of Sansa Stark, i imagine he would have too. I wonder if Renly got catty over Loras and his rose to Sansa

 

The girl being given the flower is not the mistress of the person giving the flower, quite the opposite. 

The Tourney of Harrenhal mirrors the Tourney of the Hand in more ways than one.

Rhaegar wears black armor with Red Rubies while giving a Blue Rose to a Stark that he may not have even liked.

Loras wears Silver Armor with Blue Saphires while giving a Red Rose to a Stark that he definitely did not like.

Both Starks maids are taken, and in the case of Sansa, she was taken by neither participants of the Tourney. Rather, by a spectator in the crowd, Peter Baelish. 

 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

HA! I'm in for this. Almost seems like there should be t-shirts.

If you make them up, be sure to credit @Ran, I'm pretty sure he came up with "Brandon is a douche!" shortly after the publication of A Dance with Dragons.

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Or did Brandon get misinformation--like Cat and Ned get from Lysa?

I've wondered for a while if the reason Brandon acts before Rickard does is because someone made sure to notify him ASAP--and told him Rhaegar had killed (maybe raped and killed) Lyanna. If so, that might explain why he doesn't ask for Lyanna--he's been told his baby sister and riding buddy is dead, and he's calling out the man he believes killed her.

We see how fast Jon reacts when he thinks Arya's in trouble and his plan has failed--via a baiting and misleading letter. And Jon doesn't seem to have anywhere near the reputation for hotheadedness that Brandon did.

If Brandon got baited with misinformation like Ned and Cat do, like Jon does--that might explain why Brandon acts before Rickard does--and doesn't ask for his sister.

Sorry, about this. I was responding to the other poster and didn't really mean to derail your thread. The politics of Harrenhal and related subjects is something I easily get distracted by.

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7 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Might even fit with the Bael Tale--supposedly being used to continue the dying Stark line.

With the above--are you thinking human sacrifice to create dragons/Others? As Dany does with MMD?

Or more like Nan's tale of the women who lie with the Others?

Forgot to mention the original dragons created long ago. Different than what Dany did, which was to just hatch eggs. The ancients i believe did what Barth speculates, bred Wyverns and Firewyrms, though i think they spent to much time in the body of the beast and got lost in them, as Jojen warns Bran

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The Night King i imagine wants a bride again, so he can create more others different than those he possibly turns from Crasters kids (We have no idea what the Others are doing with Crasters kids yet tho. Could just be bleeding them for blood magic. Hard to say for sure though. The Night's King controls the Dead, not the living, possibly showing the extent of his power. Bran on the other hand, can control the living. Im sure this plays into things somewhere)

If an un-dead Jon, and Dany mate and have kids, would they then be the "Never Born" as their father is already dead and may have no soul? And either Dany or Jon as the child of Rhaegar, possibly set to become King or Queen of all of Westeros and the Wildlings, may be reactivating the curse with out the Night King needing to accomplish his goals. Or maybe that is his goal.

Figuring out Bael the Bard i think is tied to everything though too. Im sure there's pieces im missing. Alysanne and Queen's Crown bothers me too. With Mance having Val who strikes me as Valyrian and searching for the Horn of Winter in the Crypts. 

If Bael is pre-Targaryen as Elio says (No reason to doubt), then the most likely time i can place him is after Valyria have taken dragon stone, as Bael is clearly listed to have lived after the Horned lord by a couple centuries. The Horned lord is either 1-2000 year after Gendel and Gorne who were only 3000 years ago. So Bael quite possibly is responsible or tied to Hard home being burned down and Valyria taking dragon stone. Hardhome becoming a city would possibly break the pact between COTF and Men. 

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I do love this. I have noticed that parallels of characters and events are used in this way both as foreshadowing and as a way to hint at what may have really happened off-page.

I’m still working my way through this thread so sorry if I’ve rehashed someone’s thoughts. This had me thinking of a discussion started by @Seams https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/149737-upstairs-downstairs/&tab=comments#comment-8091383

Just want to point out Bael's Winterfell crypts are a lot like an underground tower. The connection between towers and wells/Winterfell crypt is a logical one. A tower links sky to earth and a well connects the earth to the underworld. When one throws themselves from towers, they are crossing worlds. Likewise entering a crypt is a type of crossing worlds. As such, a tower may be underground and the Winterfell crypts do have tower-like qualities: many levels, stone, narrow, spiral stairs, run down, and round at least in some areas.

The oldest structure at Winterfell is a squat, round tower and the crypts are likewise extremely old thus it makes sense that we see roundness in the crypts.

 

As for the tower/well-like crypt as a layover rather than hideout or destination, I’m inclined to agree with those who think the crypts have a tunnel to North of the (white) Wall. Also note that the descriptions of the Eyrie and the Wall are remarkably similar. I've always struggled with the idea that Bael and the Stark maid were in the crypts for all of those months completely undiscovered. He'd have had to sneak outside all of the time for food to feed a pregnant woman and a decently run kitchen would notice the theft at some point. Bael was at Winterfell for revenge against the then-Lord Stark for calling him a coward. Thus, his daughter wasn't the point, she was there and just a means to get his revenge.

 

AGOT Eddard I

They went down to the crypt together, Ned and this king he scarcely recognized. The winding stone steps were narrow.

 

AGOT Jon IV

Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That's when I always wake." His skin cold and clammy, shivering in the darkness of his cell. Ghost would leap up beside him, his warmth as comforting as daybreak. He would go back to sleep with his face pressed into the direwolf's shaggy white fur. "Do you dream of Horn Hill?" Jon asked.

 

ACOK Bran VII

"Wait," Osha said when they reached the twisting stone stairs that led up to the surface, and down to the deeper levels where kings more ancient still sat their dark thrones. She handed Meera the torch. "I'll grope my way up." For a time they could hear the sound of her footfalls, but they grew softer and softer until they faded away entirely. "Hodor," said Hodor nervously.

 

ASOS Sansa VII

Lord Petyr made a face. "Come, let's see if my hall is as dreary as I recall." He led them up the strand over rocks slick with rotting seaweed. A handful of sheep were wandering about the base of the flint tower, grazing on the thin grass that grew between the sheepfold and thatched stable. Sansa had to step carefully; there were pellets everywhere.

Within, the tower seemed even smaller. An open stone stair wound round the inside wall, from undercroft to roof. Each floor was but a single room. The servants lived and slept in the kitchen at ground level, sharing the space with a huge brindled mastiff and a half-dozen sheep-dogs. Above that was a modest hall, and higher still the bedchamber. There were no windows, but arrowslits were embedded in the outer wall at intervals along the curve of the stair. Above the hearth hung a broken longsword and a battered oaken shield, its paint cracked and flaking.

 

AGOT Tyrion I (Tyrion takes a swallow of air as if descending under water leaving the impression of a well)

Outside, Tyrion swallowed a lungful of the cold morning air and began his laborious descent of the steep stone steps that corkscrewed around the exterior of the library tower. It was slow going; the steps were cut high and narrow, while his legs were short and twisted. The rising sun had not yet cleared the walls of Winterfell, but the men were already hard at it in the yard below. Sandor Clegane's rasping voice drifted up to him. "The boy is a long time dying. I wish he would be quicker about it."

 

ASOS Bran I

The well was the thing he liked the least, though. It was a good twelve feet across, all stone, with steps built into its side, circling down and down into darkness. The walls were damp and covered with niter, but none of them could see the water at the bottom, not even Meera with her sharp hunter's eyes. "Maybe it doesn't have a bottom," Bran said uncertainly.

 

AGOT Arya III

From somewhere far below her, she heard noises. The scrape of boots, the distant sound of voices. A flickering light brushed the wall ever so faintly, and she saw that she stood at the top of a great black well, a shaft twenty feet across plunging deep into the earth. Huge stones had been set into the curving walls as steps, circling down and down, dark as the steps to hell that Old Nan used to tell them of. And something was coming up out of the darkness, out of the bowels of the earth …

 

ADWD The Turncloak

"There are lower levels. Older. The lowest level is partly collapsed, I hear. I have never been down there." He pushed the door open and led them out into a long vaulted tunnel, where mighty granite pillars marched two by two into blackness.

 

 

 

Edited by Lollygag

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4 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I do love this. I have noticed that parallels of characters and events are used in this way both as foreshadowing and as a way to hint at what may have really happened off-page.

I’m still working my way through this thread so sorry if I’ve rehashed someone’s thoughts. This had me thinking of a discussion started by @Seams https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/149737-upstairs-downstairs/&tab=comments#comment-8091383

 

Just want to point out Bael's Winterfell crypts are a lot like an underground tower. The connection between towers and wells/Winterfell crypt is a logical one. A tower links sky to earth and a well connects the earth to the underworld. When one throws themselves from towers, they are crossing worlds. Likewise entered a crypt is crossing worlds. As such, a tower may be underground and the Winterfell crypts do have tower-like qualities: many levels, stone, narrow, spiral stairs, run down, and round at least in some areas.

 

The oldest structure at Winterfell is a squat, round tower and the crypts are likewise extremely old thus it makes sense that we see roundness in the crypts.

 

 

 

 

As for the tower/well-like crypt as a layover rather than hideout or destination, I’m inclined to agree with those who think the crypts have a tunnel to North of the (white) Wall. Also note that the descriptions of the Eyrie and the Wall are remarkably similar. I've always struggled with the idea that Bael and the Stark maid were in the crypts for all of those months completely undiscovered. He'd have had to sneak outside all of the time for food to feed a pregnant woman and a decently run kitchen would notice the theft at some point. Bael was at Winterfell for revenge against the then-Lord Stark for calling him a coward. Thus, his daughter wasn't the point, she was there and just a means to get his revenge.

 

 

 

AGOT Eddard I

 

They went down to the crypt together, Ned and this king he scarcely recognized. The winding stone steps were narrow.

 

 

 

AGOT Jon IV

 

Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That's when I always wake." His skin cold and clammy, shivering in the darkness of his cell. Ghost would leap up beside him, his warmth as comforting as daybreak. He would go back to sleep with his face pressed into the direwolf's shaggy white fur. "Do you dream of Horn Hill?" Jon asked.

 

 

 

ACOK Bran VII

 

"Wait," Osha said when they reached the twisting stone stairs that led up to the surface, and down to the deeper levels where kings more ancient still sat their dark thrones. She handed Meera the torch. "I'll grope my way up." For a time they could hear the sound of her footfalls, but they grew softer and softer until they faded away entirely. "Hodor," said Hodor nervously.

 

 

 

ASOS Sansa VII

 

Lord Petyr made a face. "Come, let's see if my hall is as dreary as I recall." He led them up the strand over rocks slick with rotting seaweed. A handful of sheep were wandering about the base of the flint tower, grazing on the thin grass that grew between the sheepfold and thatched stable. Sansa had to step carefully; there were pellets everywhere.

 

Within, the tower seemed even smaller. An open stone stair wound round the inside wall, from undercroft to roof. Each floor was but a single room. The servants lived and slept in the kitchen at ground level, sharing the space with a huge brindled mastiff and a half-dozen sheep-dogs. Above that was a modest hall, and higher still the bedchamber. There were no windows, but arrowslits were embedded in the outer wall at intervals along the curve of the stair. Above the hearth hung a broken longsword and a battered oaken shield, its paint cracked and flaking.

 

 

 

AGOT Tyrion I (Tyrion takes a swallow of air as if descending under water leaving the impression of a well)

 

Outside, Tyrion swallowed a lungful of the cold morning air and began his laborious descent of the steep stone steps that corkscrewed around the exterior of the library tower. It was slow going; the steps were cut high and narrow, while his legs were short and twisted. The rising sun had not yet cleared the walls of Winterfell, but the men were already hard at it in the yard below. Sandor Clegane's rasping voice drifted up to him. "The boy is a long time dying. I wish he would be quicker about it."

 

 

 

ASOS Bran I

 

The well was the thing he liked the least, though. It was a good twelve feet across, all stone, with steps built into its side, circling down and down into darkness. The walls were damp and covered with niter, but none of them could see the water at the bottom, not even Meera with her sharp hunter's eyes. "Maybe it doesn't have a bottom," Bran said uncertainly.

 

 

 

AGOT Arya III

 

From somewhere far below her, she heard noises. The scrape of boots, the distant sound of voices. A flickering light brushed the wall ever so faintly, and she saw that she stood at the top of a great black well, a shaft twenty feet across plunging deep into the earth. Huge stones had been set into the curving walls as steps, circling down and down, dark as the steps to hell that Old Nan used to tell them of. And something was coming up out of the darkness, out of the bowels of the earth …

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's an interesting idea as i've mentioned in another thread the possibility that the Brandon they refer to is Brandon the Burner who Jon brings up when talking to Ygritte about Bael. Burners father was lost at sea, and if the timing is right, this is around when Hardhome was burned. So Bael may be responsible for the Burning of hardhome and of the death of Brandon the Shipwright, Hence Brandon the daughterless calling Bael a coward, prompting Bael to steal his daughter.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That's an interesting idea as i've mentioned in another thread the possibility that the Brandon they refer to is Brandon the Burner who Jon brings up when talking to Ygritte about Bael. Burners father was lost at sea, and if the timing is right, this is around when Hardhome was burned. So Bael may be responsible for the Burning of hardhome and of the death of Brandon the Shipwright, Hence Brandon the daughterless calling Bael a coward, prompting Bael to steal his daughter.

Can you point me to where I can find this? I noticed that things mentioned in proximity are often connected which is another device used by the author to drop hints to us in addition to the use of parallels as mentioned in the OP.

Going to that extreme just because Bael was called a coward seems over the top. Sounds like it's more complicated.

Edited by Lollygag

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6 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Can you point me to where I can find this? I noticed that things mentioned in proximity are often connected which is another device used by the author to drop hints to us in addition to the use of parallels as mentioned in the OP.

Going to that extreme just because Bael was called a coward seems over the top. Sounds like it's more complicated.

Started off here in the Op

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/152032-kings-beyond-the-wall-and-yes-bael-the-infamous-bard-updated-again/

and is tied to

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/152053-whats-in-a-naem-bael-and-hardhome/

and carried into the comments on page 4

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/152053-whats-in-a-naem-bael-and-hardhome/&page=4

Having to do with GRRM's comments on AE and tracing the Valyrian diphthong. 

Heavily leaned me toward Jaehaerys due to the tale involving K.R. and Lord Stark, and Valyrian presence in Westeros. Lack of known information of the time, Viserys I telling his grandkids that Jaehaerys fought at the wall with dragons, and Queen's crown (crowning being a birthing term), and Alysanne giving that village over to the Watch with the New Gift.

The quotes from Yandel and Jon help pin point two rough era's.

Ran (Elio) commented on another thread though, stating that Bael is a pre-Targaryen figure. Nothing about pre-valyrians in westeros. Which would be Hardhome and Dragonstone being taken 600 years ago. Which falls into one of the possible time frames.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/152053-whats-in-a-naem-bael-and-hardhome/&page=3

This is the page when the alternate question was asked, Bael and Brandon the Burner instead of Jaehaerys I. 

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Taking temporary shelter in a ruined tower also call out to Bran and company hiding out in Allysanne's tower.   The people inside hope the dangerous people outside will move on without noticing them.  The warg in the party takes control of the simpleton to keep him quiet.  What could become good drama is Lyanna having the same ability and keeping a baby quiet at the tower. 

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