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GRRM Already Told Us the Tower of Joy Backstory: Wrong Joy, No Hiding, and Fight Elsewhere.

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16 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Taking temporary shelter in a ruined tower also call out to Bran and company hiding out in Allysanne's tower.   The people inside hope the dangerous people outside will move on without noticing them.  The warg in the party takes control of the simpleton to keep him quiet.  What could become good drama is Lyanna having the same ability and keeping a baby quiet at the tower. 

I swear there is more going on with that tower than we know hahah it mirrors the Tower of Joy, it screams baby born here "crowning", and screams cover up, that Alysanne after staying there and the villagers renaming it in her honor, turns around and gives it to the Night's Watch with the New Gift. 

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3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I swear there is more going on with that tower than we know hahah it mirrors the Tower of Joy, it screams baby born here "crowning", and screams cover up, that Alysanne after staying there and the villagers renaming it in her honor, turns around and gives it to the Night's Watch with the New Gift. 

There were no births at Queenscrown.  I would not be too sure of a birth at the Tower of Joy. 

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9 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Taking temporary shelter in a ruined tower also call out to Bran and company hiding out in Allysanne's tower.   The people inside hope the dangerous people outside will move on without noticing them.  The warg in the party takes control of the simpleton to keep him quiet.  What could become good drama is Lyanna having the same ability and keeping a baby quiet at the tower. 

 

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I swear there is more going on with that tower than we know hahah it mirrors the Tower of Joy, it screams baby born here "crowning", and screams cover up, that Alysanne after staying there and the villagers renaming it in her honor, turns around and gives it to the Night's Watch with the New Gift. 

I agree that it is worth comparing what we know of the Queenscrown with the Tower of Joy.

I think there is reason to believe that Alysanne had a baby or two out of wedlock. Otherwise, why would GRRM bother to include these details in the World book?

For forty-six years, the Old King (Jaehaerys I) and Good Queen Alysanne were wed, and for he most part it was a happy marriage, with children and grandchildren aplenty.

Two estrangements are recorded, but they did not last more than a year or two before the pair resumed their customary friendship. The Second Quarrel, however, is of note, as it was due to Jaehaerys's decision in 92 AC to pass over his granddaughter Rhaenys - the daughter of his deceased eldest son and heir, Prince Aemon - in favor of bestowing Dragonstone and the place of heir apparent on his next eldest son, Baelon the Brave. Alysanne saw no reason why a man should be favored over a woman ... and if Jaehaerys thought women of less use, then he would have no need of her. They reconciled in time . . .

[TWOIAF, p. 60, The Targaryen Kings, Jaehaerys I]

So GRRM tells us that Alysanne was separated from Jaehaerys on two separate occasions for a year or two: long enough to have a baby. We also know that Alysanne had a special relationship with the Night's Watch and that she could fly up there on her dragon fairly easily. She spent time in the strangely well-guarded and secretive Queenscrown and the people around the tower loved her (we have evidence of this in the gold paint on the tower) and would probably be loyal in protecting her reputation (this is speculative but inferred from their affection for the queen). So she could have carried on a love affair in relative secret using the tower or some other hideaway.

The youngest and favorite child of Alysanne, Gael, was nicknamed The Winter Child. I suspect that Gael was the child of Alysanne's lover, whoever he might have been, not of King Jaehaerys. (Although I have also wondered whether Alysanne had a baby while she was up north and left it to be raised by a noble family, ala Jon Snow.) Gael supposedly drowned herself after being seduced and abandoned by a traveling singer. To me, this sounds like an Ashara echo. There may also be a Bael allusion, as Gael rhymes with Bael.

The next time we see the Queenscrown is when Bran, Meera, Jojen and Hodor spend a night there after deciding against sleeping in the ruined inn nearby. What if this is a clue about why the King's Guard members were at the Tower of Joy? Perhaps they could have stayed at a place nearby (another inn?) but decided it was too vulnerable.

On a thread focused on the old man killed at that inn by Ygritte, I shared some ideas about the Queenscrown and the nearby inn.

On 8/9/2016 at 8:18 PM, Seams said:

A couple of weeks ago, I wrote up some thoughts I had put together on inns. I already thought that the Queenscrown has to have a hidden significance that will become clearer later. When I was working on inns, though, I realized that the old man has taken shelter in the ruined inn. Bran and his travel companions thought about trying to stay in the ruined inn, but decided to go to the Queenscrown instead. If Bran and his group had decided to overnight in the inn, the wildlings would have tried to kill them, too.

Here's a link to my post about inns. The tl;dr summary is that inns seem to be symbolic representations about the history of the Westeros monarchy. The central symbolic inn is the inn at the crossroads, but other inns contribute details to the central history. (The Peach, for instance, may represent Renly and Stannis trying to become successors to Robert; The Inn of the Kneeling Man was built at the spot where Thorrhen Stark gave up his crown to Aegon the Conqueror.)

So this ruined inn in The Gift is at a symbolic "crossroads" where Jon and Bran or Jon and Meera almost cross paths. At one point, Jon thinks one of the Thenns is telling him, "Get back where you belong," and that he wants Jon to get into the ruined inn. Instead, Jon stares at the tower called the Queenscrown and says, "I know this place."

So the old man may be a symbol of Jon's past or his heritage, which most people seem to believe is royal in some way. He refuses to kill the old man. My inn theories are new and only half-baked, but maybe this means that Jon does not feel ready to stay at the inn (= become king) but he doesn't want to entirely "kill" his heritage. The fact that Ygritte does want to kill the old man might symbolize her desire to end this whole "kneeler" culture and do away with the idea of hereditary kings.

 ...

If the theories about Jon's Targaryen heritage are correct, the Gift is an important area for him because it's a place where Stark land was given to Queen Alysanne to present to the Night's Watch. All of Jon's heritage and his present identity combined. Another layer of crossroads.

My later thought was that the silent old, white-haired man at the inn represents Jon's direwolf, Ghost, and that his death is a sort of Aslan-type sacrifice to the White Witch, Ygritte. If the old man represents Ghost, however, he is part of a chain of symbols because my reading of the AGoT scene where Jon is the only one to hear the white wolf pup is that the white pup is the rebirth of the dead mother wolf, the one with the antler in her throat. The Lyanna imagery seems pretty strong. I know this sounds tenuous to anyone who doesn't read the books for their hidden symbolic meanings, but I think the gist of this is that Ygritte is killing "Lyanna," but at a nearby building or ruin, not at the tower. "Lyanna" makes that sacrifice (although the old man does not seem entirely resigned to this fate) so that Jon can escape.

If this is a correct interpretation, maybe Lyanna's bed of blood was not at the Tower of Joy, but was at a nearby ruin of some kind, maybe an inn.

Jon's escape from the wildlings is also facilitated by Bran's wolf, Summer. Is there an equivalent for Bran's wolf in the Tower of Joy scenario? Maybe this is Ashara, taking Lyanna's baby to safety while Lyanna is dying. I admit, this is largely speculation: if Ghost is Lyanna, then Summer might be the other mysterious young woman connected to the Rhaegar arc.

Does the fact that Bran and his traveling companions do not choose to sleep at the inn, thereby saving their own lives from a wildling attack, also become an echo for the Tower of Joy scene? There are four people in the Queenscrown tower - Bran and three people essentially assigned to guard him, as Robb's heir. Are Hodor, Jojen and Meera the equivalent of the three King's Guard members?

There's still a lot to puzzle out in these scenarios but I think the Queenscrown could offer a very useful set of hints about the Tower of Joy.

 

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9 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

There were no births at Queenscrown.  I would not be too sure of a birth at the Tower of Joy. 

Maybe, nothing we are out right told with either

. @Seams did a pretty good run down of the clues for Queen's Crown though. Its a plot device that pops up in Jon and Bran's chapter and is used both times to discuss Queen Alysanne and some of her weird actions.

Seams is right that Gael is meant to catch our eye both by her name and nick name, the Winter Child. She is also the 13th child of Alysanne, and 13 is linked to the Night King as the 13th L.C. who served for 13 years. Alysanne also killed her self over the loss of Gael. If Gael was her last child alive, this would make sense, but Alysanne has many children who lived. Gael was likely in her 20s or 30s, she was at least 14-16 to get pregnant by a traveling Bard (Bael reference? along with her name). Something worth keeping your eye out for imo

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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3 hours ago, Seams said:

 

I agree that it is worth comparing what we know of the Queenscrown with the Tower of Joy.

I think there is reason to believe that Alysanne had a baby or two out of wedlock. Otherwise, why would GRRM bother to include these details in the World book?

For forty-six years, the Old King (Jaehaerys I) and Good Queen Alysanne were wed, and for he most part it was a happy marriage, with children and grandchildren aplenty.

Two estrangements are recorded, but they did not last more than a year or two before the pair resumed their customary friendship. The Second Quarrel, however, is of note, as it was due to Jaehaerys's decision in 92 AC to pass over his granddaughter Rhaenys - the daughter of his deceased eldest son and heir, Prince Aemon - in favor of bestowing Dragonstone and the place of heir apparent on his next eldest son, Baelon the Brave. Alysanne saw no reason why a man should be favored over a woman ... and if Jaehaerys thought women of less use, then he would have no need of her. They reconciled in time . . .

[TWOIAF, p. 60, The Targaryen Kings, Jaehaerys I]

So GRRM tells us that Alysanne was separated from Jaehaerys on two separate occasions for a year or two: long enough to have a baby. We also know that Alysanne had a special relationship with the Night's Watch and that she could fly up there on her dragon fairly easily. She spent time in the strangely well-guarded and secretive Queenscrown and the people around the tower loved her (we have evidence of this in the gold paint on the tower) and would probably be loyal in protecting her reputation (this is speculative but inferred from their affection for the queen). So she could have carried on a love affair in relative secret using the tower or some other hideaway.

The youngest and favorite child of Alysanne, Gael, was nicknamed The Winter Child. I suspect that Gael was the child of Alysanne's lover, whoever he might have been, not of King Jaehaerys. (Although I have also wondered whether Alysanne had a baby while she was up north and left it to be raised by a noble family, ala Jon Snow.) Gael supposedly drowned herself after being seduced and abandoned by a traveling singer. To me, this sounds like an Ashara echo. There may also be a Bael allusion, as Gael rhymes with Bael.

The next time we see the Queenscrown is when Bran, Meera, Jojen and Hodor spend a night there after deciding against sleeping in the ruined inn nearby. What if this is a clue about why the King's Guard members were at the Tower of Joy? Perhaps they could have stayed at a place nearby (another inn?) but decided it was too vulnerable.

On a thread focused on the old man killed at that inn by Ygritte, I shared some ideas about the Queenscrown and the nearby inn.

My later thought was that the silent old, white-haired man at the inn represents Jon's direwolf, Ghost, and that his death is a sort of Aslan-type sacrifice to the White Witch, Ygritte. If the old man represents Ghost, however, he is part of a chain of symbols because my reading of the AGoT scene where Jon is the only one to hear the white wolf pup is that the white pup is the rebirth of the dead mother wolf, the one with the antler in her throat. The Lyanna imagery seems pretty strong. I know this sounds tenuous to anyone who doesn't read the books for their hidden symbolic meanings, but I think the gist of this is that Ygritte is killing "Lyanna," but at a nearby building or ruin, not at the tower. "Lyanna" makes that sacrifice (although the old man does not seem entirely resigned to this fate) so that Jon can escape.

If this is a correct interpretation, maybe Lyanna's bed of blood was not at the Tower of Joy, but was at a nearby ruin of some kind, maybe an inn.

Jon's escape from the wildlings is also facilitated by Bran's wolf, Summer. Is there an equivalent for Bran's wolf in the Tower of Joy scenario? Maybe this is Ashara, taking Lyanna's baby to safety while Lyanna is dying. I admit, this is largely speculation: if Ghost is Lyanna, then Summer might be the other mysterious young woman connected to the Rhaegar arc.

Does the fact that Bran and his traveling companions do not choose to sleep at the inn, thereby saving their own lives from a wildling attack, also become an echo for the Tower of Joy scene? There are four people in the Queenscrown tower - Bran and three people essentially assigned to guard him, as Robb's heir. Are Hodor, Jojen and Meera the equivalent of the three King's Guard members?

There's still a lot to puzzle out in these scenarios but I think the Queenscrown could offer a very useful set of hints about the Tower of Joy.

 

I can't thank and like this at the same time hahah

Quote

Although I have also wondered whether Alysanne had a baby while she was up north and left it to be raised by a noble family, ala Jon Snow.)

I circle around to this too, namely because of Val.

Elio helped pin point Bael (Assuming he is real), to before the Targaryen's but likely after the Valyrian's arrive. (Supported by quotes between Jon and Qoren and Yandel in TWOIAF.) And the likeliest time is around Brandon the Burner and when Hardhome was burned down. Point is though, Bael, sounds Valyrian. If he took a Stark maid, House Stark is part Valyrian. 
IF Bael is pre-Targaryen, then Alysanne was only hooking up with one possible person, a Stark. Which would make sense, if they have Valyrian in them. Im sure Septon Barth discovered something while North too. 

Im not sure if it matters, but with Queen's crown. Jon and Bran cross paths but never meet, though Jon isn't actively looking for Bran like Eddard was Lyanna.

Alysanne and Bael seem relevant to Jon's journey of self discovery.

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7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

IF Bael is pre-Targaryen, then Alysanne was only hooking up with one possible person, a Stark. Which would make sense, if they have Valyrian in them. Im sure Septon Barth discovered something while North too. 

Im not sure if it matters, but with Queen's crown. Jon and Bran cross paths but never meet, though Jon isn't actively looking for Bran like Eddard was Lyanna.

Alysanne and Bael seem relevant to Jon's journey of self discovery.

I get a vibe off of the Mormonts that tells me GRRM hasn't told us something important about their background. Maybe House Mormont is descended from the Targaryen / Stark union begun by Alysanne's love affair? This comes back to the Tower of Joy because of Ser Jorah's marriage to a Hightower. I suspect that House Hightower was looking to mix with a certain bloodline, which is why the lovely daughter was sent off to live on Bear Island with a rough-hewn, somewhat impoverished lordling. When the marriage did not result in children, the point of the marriage was moot and she took off.

The name "Maege" Mormont tells me that the Mormonts are part of the "game" of thrones (along with Maegor, Margaery, etc.)

But back to the Tower of Joy / Queenscrown comparison. I think it's significant that the roses Rhaegar gave to Lyanna were in the form of a crown (maybe it's a wreath, but the idea was to crown the Queen of Love and Beauty). The Starks gave up their crown (always referred to as The Ancient Crown of the Kings of Winter) to Aegon the Conqueror. Is there meaning in the crowning of a Stark queen that would alarm Brandon or other Starks? I think there is wordplay on crowning and drowning (Viserys with molten gold, Theon welcome back by Uncle Aeron with a symbolic seawater drowning, etc.). So maybe the giving of a crown was a symbolic threat to Lyanna, and Brandon was reacting to that.

But Rhaegar puts the crown in Lyanna's lap, not on her head. Is he empowering her to crown herself? This fits with the Alysanne parallel, where Good Queen Alysanne says that women should be treated equally with men and even empowered to rule in their own right.

Because of the Thenn with Jon Snow as part of the wildling group, we also have a link to Alysanne through the subsequent Alys Karstark wedding arranged by Jon Snow. The Thenn is the one who seems to tell Jon to go to the ruined inn (but Jon is instead drawn to the Queenscrown tower). What does it mean that Jon "unites" an Alysanne echo character with an ancient wildling king? Maybe the wildlings are descended from Queen Alysanne's bastard?

More clues to pursue: there is specific description of the windows or other apertures on the Queenscrown. On one floor, there are only slits for arrows. The description of Queen Alysanne's temporary separation from Jaehaerys came about because of The Second Quarrel - the term is capitalized in the account in the world book (see my earlier post). To get to that floor, Bran and his companions have to climb through a murder hole. So I think we are being given a hint about someone being shot and killed with arrows or quarrels. Could it be Lyanna? My bet would be that each floor of the Queenscrown represents a rebirth. The top floor is the gold crown, of course. It also has a privy. I associate privies with Tywin and with Jaime (shit for honor). Hmm.

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1 hour ago, Seams said:
9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

IF Bael is pre-Targaryen, then Alysanne was only hooking up with one possible person, a Stark. Which would make sense, if they have Valyrian in them. Im sure Septon Barth discovered something while North too. 

Im not sure if it matters, but with Queen's crown. Jon and Bran cross paths but never meet, though Jon isn't actively looking for Bran like Eddard was Lyanna.

Alysanne and Bael seem relevant to Jon's journey of self discovery.

I get a vibe off of the Mormonts that tells me GRRM hasn't told us something important about their background. Maybe House Mormont is descended from the Targaryen / Stark union begun by Alysanne's love affair? This comes back to the Tower of Joy because of Ser Jorah's marriage to a Hightower. I suspect that House Hightower was looking to mix with a certain bloodline, which is why the lovely daughter was sent off to live on Bear Island with a rough-hewn, somewhat impoverished lordling. When the marriage did not result in children, the point of the marriage was moot and she took off.

The name "Maege" Mormont tells me that the Mormonts are part of the "game" of thrones (along with Maegor, Margaery, etc.)

Hmmm, interesting - in my rough chronology spreadsheet I have a tentative dating for Rodrick Stark (who gave the Mormonts Bear Isle) as being between Brandon the Burner and Torrhen the Kneeler. Perfectly positioned to allow the Mormonts to be a Bael/Stark cadet branch, if Brandon the Burner is Brandon the Daughterless. Question then is how did Longclaw first come into their possession?

 

ETA: Mormonts have had Longclaw 500yrs or so, which can't be too far from when they got Bear Isle... or perhaps it should be Baer Isle after all?

ETA2: Now I've started digging in this vein, is it a coincidence that the Mormonts got a bastard sword so close to their lands being granted? And what else can we read into Maege's daughters also being Mormonts - does their father have no name, or is he also a Mormont? Yet we see the female line passing on the title... sort of similar to Brandon the Daughterless' own daughter did...

Edited by Rufus Snow

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

I get a vibe off of the Mormonts that tells me GRRM hasn't told us something important about their background. Maybe House Mormont is descended from the Targaryen / Stark union begun by Alysanne's love affair? This comes back to the Tower of Joy because of Ser Jorah's marriage to a Hightower. I suspect that House Hightower was looking to mix with a certain bloodline, which is why the lovely daughter was sent off to live on Bear Island with a rough-hewn, somewhat impoverished lordling. When the marriage did not result in children, the point of the marriage was moot and she took off.

The name "Maege" Mormont tells me that the Mormonts are part of the "game" of thrones (along with Maegor, Margaery, etc.)

But back to the Tower of Joy / Queenscrown comparison. I think it's significant that the roses Rhaegar gave to Lyanna were in the form of a crown (maybe it's a wreath, but the idea was to crown the Queen of Love and Beauty). The Starks gave up their crown (always referred to as The Ancient Crown of the Kings of Winter) to Aegon the Conqueror. Is there meaning in the crowning of a Stark queen that would alarm Brandon or other Starks? I think there is wordplay on crowning and drowning (Viserys with molten gold, Theon welcome back by Uncle Aeron with a symbolic seawater drowning, etc.). So maybe the giving of a crown was a symbolic threat to Lyanna, and Brandon was reacting to that.

But Rhaegar puts the crown in Lyanna's lap, not on her head. Is he empowering her to crown herself? This fits with the Alysanne parallel, where Good Queen Alysanne says that women should be treated equally with men and even empowered to rule in their own right.

Because of the Thenn with Jon Snow as part of the wildling group, we also have a link to Alysanne through the subsequent Alys Karstark wedding arranged by Jon Snow. The Thenn is the one who seems to tell Jon to go to the ruined inn (but Jon is instead drawn to the Queenscrown tower). What does it mean that Jon "unites" an Alysanne echo character with an ancient wildling king? Maybe the wildlings are descended from Queen Alysanne's bastard?

More clues to pursue: there is specific description of the windows or other apertures on the Queenscrown. On one floor, there are only slits for arrows. The description of Queen Alysanne's temporary separation from Jaehaerys came about because of The Second Quarrel - the term is capitalized in the account in the world book (see my earlier post). To get to that floor, Bran and his companions have to climb through a murder hole. So I think we are being given a hint about someone being shot and killed with arrows or quarrels. Could it be Lyanna? My bet would be that each floor of the Queenscrown represents a rebirth. The top floor is the gold crown, of course. It also has a privy. I associate privies with Tywin and with Jaime (shit for honor). Hmm.

 

26 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Hmmm, interesting - in my rough chronology spreadsheet I have a tentative dating for Rodrick Stark (who gave the Mormonts Bear Isle) as being between Brandon the Burner and Torrhen the Kneeler. Perfectly positioned to allow the Mormonts to be a Bael/Stark cadet branch, if Brandon the Burner is Brandon the Daughterless. Question then is how did Longclaw first come into their possession?

 

ETA: Mormonts have had Longclaw 500yrs or so, which can't be too far from when they got Bear Isle... or perhaps it should be Baer Isle after all?

I like the idea on the Mormonts and Rufus's pinning Long claw is a good idea considering the House is way to poor to have one when the Lannisters had to pay a fortune for it. Even the Targaryen's only had two. They were rare swords. Maege is another good clue for a Valyrian in the family tree some wheres. Maege's daughter is names Alysane Mormont also. 

On Maege though, let us not forget Tormund Husband of Bears. We have a possible link for House Mormont to have Valyrian. But this brings me to my next point.

The power of belief is guiding these people to what? Daenerys, per GRRM is only a 1/16 (something like that) as Targaryen as Aegon I. This mean's Rhaegar is barely a Targaryen too. 

Jon if a son of Rhaegar, shouldn't be important because of Rhaegar. Daenerys, shouldn't have been able to hatch dragons just cause she was the child of Rhaegar. There is more going on here than just surface level imo.

Daenerys didn't create dragons, as they did of old. She simply hatched pre-existing eggs and at the least, bound them to her blood.  She would need to find another dragon rider, and have kids, then force the kids to perform incest.

Now mayyyyybeee Jon will get dragon riding gifts from Lyanna, but how? The Wildlings dont practice incest but for Craster. So he's the only way that gene is being kept pure, but he's not 600 years old. So unless the FM were Pre-Valyrians and warging is a form of dragon riding, i dont understand how the Valyrians beyond the wall still adds up. Though maybe that is why Bael went there? Were the Targaryens the only house to have problems keeping dragons? 

And of course theres the murky picture on how the Others fit into the Wildling connection and Valyrians. Though i've  talked about House Gardener being Valyrians and Serwyn of the Mirror Shield else where.

I have yet to bring up House Celtigar or House Velaryon into this as it does go a little deeper. House Velaryon predate the Targaryens in Westeros and received a Driftwood throne from a pact with the Merling King. How much earlier do they predate them? about 200 years? What about House Celtigar? Yet House Targaryen chooses to marry House Velaryon instead of Celtigar.  Why didnt' House Velaryon take dragon stone?

As to the details of Queen's Crown that Seams mentions ill have to look at and think about more but i love where your going with it. 

Thenn's believe their Magnar is close to a god, so that may be a sign of Valyrians, or not.

The Tower of Joy though, i love @Sly Wren pointing out the defenses. 

Why did the K.G. meet Eddard in Battle? Why not just whole up inside till she births and hopefully reinforcements arrive? I know it's said he brought the Tower down later but how? Imagine Jon and the Wildlings trying to bring down Queen's Crown Tower. Upon coming outside, why not just take them down with arrows? You trying to get to your sister? or are you trying to prove how honorable and good of a fighter you are? The K.G. have to know Eddard would never starve his sister out in a siege. 

Picture this if you will, you just lost all your men except a tiny lil Crannogman. You've found your sister in a pool of blood with a baby. While the bodies of your comrades and sister sit out to rot, a new born baby sits out to cry and be hungry, you and your one friend try and figure out how to pull down a tower and bury your dead. Your sister's body is left to rot and be wrapped in your cloak to be brought to StarFall.

You have one extra horse that you keep (Dustins). This horse can either haul your sisters dead stinking body as you carry a squalling infant, or the Horse can carry Wylla? and the baby. While you apparently carry your sisters dead rotting body with you on your horse to Starfall. Maybe Eddard and Howland rode nut to butt while Lyanna's corpse got Howlands horse? 

It certainly would make more sense if Lyanna wasn't there and they had just met there for battle. 

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4 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Mormonts got a bastard sword

Omg i literally just popped on to tell you guys this too hahahaha it literally justtttt popped into my head lol

Edit- and yes to all the rest about Maege passing on the family name the same as Bael and Brandon's daughter.

Edit- I've always suspected "kissed by fire" had something to do with breeding with Valyrians but never put much thought into. Just popped into my head again

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

It certainly would make more sense if Lyanna wasn't there and they had just met there for battle. 

A lot of things make more sense than king jon and all three KG are just together to protect him. 

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1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

A lot of things make more sense than king jon and all three KG are just together to protect him. 

On what grounds would Rhaegar have to get an annulment to see to Jon being King Jon? Elia was faithful, provided him an heir, and good to him. He can't legitimize his own son with out recognition from Aerys who out lived him. Plus Rhaegar died before his son Aegon. So at no point in Rhaegar's life was he "King Jon" and at no point after do i see him being "King Jon". Who already see's him self as a northerner and wouldn't want to rule Westeros any ways. He doesn't know a thing about Westeros and would get murdered in court as fast as Eddard and faster than he did at the Wall. 

Unless you truly believe Rhaegar was about to pass up his heir and his "prince that was promised" Aegon, simply for one of the younger "Three heads of the dragon" as the theory goes. Is Rhaegar trying to ensure a war between his children? Or was Rhaegar just hoping Aegon would die? 

I suppose he named all his son's Aegon just in case. 

 

That is interesting though that House Hightower, House Whent, and House Dayne wouldn't be the least bit curious where this "King Jon" was that there son's just had to have been protecting. Or maybe they just didn't care to inquire how and why their son's had died at the Tower of Joy? Seems House Hightower at the least would want some answers at to why Gerold died defending Lyanna at the Tower of Joy and where her son of Rhaegar is, if it's that obvious what they were there for. 

If Rhaegar was indeed banging her in a tower for months with his K.G. out side just easing dropping like Jamie. All of them just enjoying their days as the war rages in Westeros. Rhaegar serenading them all by moon light with his harp. You better enjoy the harp too, cause we're staying till she's pregnant and bears my child. Then Rhaegar's great plan is to march to K.L. with baby "King Jon' in hand, ready to throw down Robert Baratheon, depose his father, and take on the White Walkers with his three heads of the dragon, now lead by the youngest of the litter, and backed by no real dragons since Daenerys never went into exile. And with the power of belief, they would all live happily ever after. If only Rhaegar had lived to crown baby king Jon. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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Fun fact, King Jon is one of the worst remembered kings in England and only one. It's a black name

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In the book canon, of course, there has only been only King Maegor, the reputation of Maegor the Cruel being so black. England has had only one King John, for much the same reasons. (Prince Aerion Brightflame did name his son Maegor, but that was meant as a provocation, and in any case the boy never sat the Iron Throne).

And very much on the mind of GRRM. 

Edit- Yes i know there was a king Jon Stark. That's the only king Jon will be imo. King of Winter Not Westeros. And king of Winter likely being the Night King.

Edit- Another fun fact :) King Jon was the son of Henry the II. Henry the VII is known as the King of Winter. They are all part of the Plantagenet line started by William of Normandy who was a descendant of Rollo, a viking invader who conquered Normandy. (If this doesn't make you think of Asoiaf then i dont what does.) Andal or Iron born Vikings, many houses tied to a larger house, all of whom come from another land than the one they now rule (Valyria)

Henry II and Jon were also before the family had split into the Lancasters, Yorks, and Tudors

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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Eddard was high on painkillers when we get his hallucinations of the fight at the tower.  A lot of what we know, or think we know, are not reliable.  For example, it is possible Ashara did not kill herself.  Lyanna did.  She slit her wrist rather than go back to Robert.  That would explain the bed of blood.  It was Lyanna who took her own life.  Ashara is alive and hiding somewhere.  

I believe Lyanna is the mother of Jon Snow.  But it doesn't have to mean it was Jon who was born at the tower.  Maybe nobody was born at the tower.  Leuwin observed that bastards grow up faster than other boys.  He's a smart man and suspected Jon is older than Eddard is claiming.  He had to come up with an excuse to explain why Jon is farther along than Robb.  Jon was born before the tower of joy to Lyanna and some yet unknown father.  Probably Brandon himself.  The horny man lost his cool and slept with his sister.  

Edited by Allardyce

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On 9/11/2018 at 10:14 PM, Sly Wren said:

On the bolded--agreed. And it's Ned's POV on Rhaegar and brothels--it may mean faithful. Might also mean he had other paramours rather than prostitutes.

Faithful to Elia.

 

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On 9/11/2018 at 11:36 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Stannis also doesn't seem like the kind of man to go to a brothel, but he does cheat on his wife with Melisandre.

Perhaps this is so.  Do we have any independent observations on this?  Do we have a character POV that thinks Stannis is not a brothel patron?

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32 minutes ago, The First Bloodrider said:

Perhaps this is so.  Do we have any independent observations on this?  Do we have a character POV that thinks Stannis is not a brothel patron?

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VI

Lord Renly laughed. "We're fortunate my brother Stannis is not with us. Remember the time he proposed to outlaw brothels? The king asked him if perhaps he'd like to outlaw eating, shitting, and breathing while he was at it. If truth be told, I ofttimes wonder how Stannis ever got that ugly daughter of his. He goes to his marriage bed like a man marching to a battlefield, with a grim look in his eyes and a determination to do his duty."

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VI

"The boy says that they visited a brothel."

"A brothel?" Ned said. "The Lord of the Eyrie and Hand of the King visited a brothel with Stannis Baratheon?" He shook his head, incredulous, wondering what Lord Renly would make of this tidbit. Robert's lusts were the subject of ribald drinking songs throughout the realm, but Stannis was a different sort of man; a bare year younger than the king, yet utterly unlike him, stern, humorless, unforgiving, grim in his sense of duty.

 

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1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

 

 

@Rufus Snow: I only have a few minutes before my shuttle gets here, but I had to comment--that is a fabulous catch!

I've been working under the premise for a while that Stannis and his cult (wife, loyal knight, and paramour/magical figure) give us info about Rhaegar (Elia, Arthur, and possibly Ashara).

That Ned himself says that both Rhaegar and Stannis are unlikely to seek out brothels--and then we see Stannis with his wife and Mel--think there's a good chance we are seeing an echo (yes I know that's a mixed metaphor) of Rhaegar's relationship with wife and paramour. 

@The First Bloodrider: Maybe Rhaegar was faithful--but he really seemed to want a third child. 

2 hours ago, Allardyce said:

Eddard was high on painkillers when we get his hallucinations of the fight at the tower.  A lot of what we know, or think we know, are not reliable.  For example, it is possible Ashara did not kill herself.  Lyanna did.  She slit her wrist rather than go back to Robert.  That would explain the bed of blood.  It was Lyanna who took her own life.  Ashara is alive and hiding somewhere.  

Maybe-- @wolfmaid7 and others have made a similar argument re: the bed of blood. And it is possible.

Problem: the only other time the phrase bed of blood is used (outside when Ned talks about Lyanna's bed of blood) is in reference to childbirth: 

Nine sons had been born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, but only four had lived to manhood. That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. Feast, The Prophet

Only other close phrase is in Game, when MMD says she knows the secrets of the "bloody bed."

That's it. No matter how much other people in the novels bleed in bed, the phrasing never gets close.

Maybe Martin will change it, but so far, "bed of blood" means childbirth in Martinlandia.

But the books aren't done.

Quote

 But it doesn't have to mean it was Jon who was born at the tower.  Maybe nobody was born at the tower.  

Yup.

Edited by Sly Wren

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13 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

ETA2: Now I've started digging in this vein, is it a coincidence that the Mormonts got a bastard sword so close to their lands being granted? And what else can we read into Maege's daughters also being Mormonts - does their father have no name, or is he also a Mormont? Yet we see the female line passing on the title... sort of similar to Brandon the Daughterless' own daughter did...

I'm loving this line of reasoning you, @Seams and @AlaskanSandman are on.

I'd see the "bastard sword" as being Jon's halfway sword the one he wants: the true greatsword of his father that will give him a family name.

But this is really cool--the Mormonts, the Winter's Child--this could be a really interesting twist.

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On September 13, 2018 at 10:04 PM, Nevets said:

I read somewhere -World Book, perhaps? - that his making Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty was perceived as an indication of interest in her as a mistress.  Since the QoLaB is traditionally the winner's wife or betrothed, this makes a great deal of sense in context.  Thus Brandon's anger.

World Book writer seems surprised--says Brandon "takes offense" but doesn't say why. And wonders why the Starks don't feel honored. Apparently, the behavior seemed odd to the writer.

As for the wife or betrothed--yes. Though Loras gives a rose to the betrothed of the crown prince and no one's bothered. Granted, he's not betrothed, but he is gifting to another "man's" betrothed.

On September 13, 2018 at 10:04 PM, Nevets said:

  Jaime, Barristtan, Cersei, and Kevan Lannister all knew Rhaegar and Ashara at least, and some knew Lyanna.  If Rhaegar were making time with Ashara, I would expect one of them to think something about it.  Plus, the Dornish might have had something to say about it as well.

And Tyrion knew his siblings really well. Had really good reasons to believe they killed Arryn and believes it completely--and he got it wrong. Cat knew Lysa--never suspects Lysa killed Arryn.

Just because they knew Rhaegar doesn't mean they knew everything--especially since he so much time on Dragonstone.

As for the Dornish--they might have opinions. But we see via Arianne that the Dornish often play by different rules.

On September 13, 2018 at 10:04 PM, Nevets said:

I think I'm going to go with the standard understanding of these events, until and unless I'm given a good reason to do otherwise.  Which I've yet to see.

Completely fair. 

Would only suggest that Ned and Tyrion both being dead wrong about who killed Jon Arryn, despite all of the evidence we are shown as we watch them "figure it out," should potentially give readers a lot of pause concerning what people in world believe. 

And if we go with the standard understanding of events, Ned has to be Jon's father. 

On September 13, 2018 at 11:14 PM, SFDanny said:

Sorry, about this. I was responding to the other poster and didn't really mean to derail your thread. The politics of Harrenhal and related subjects is something I easily get distracted by.

No worries. For some reason, my threads tend to turn into sandboxes vs. focused discussions.

Plus, far as I can see, the politics of Harrenhal are part of the tower of joy's backstory--so all on topic as far as I can see.

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10 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I'm loving this line of reasoning you, @Seams and @AlaskanSandman are on.

I'd see the "bastard sword" as being Jon's halfway sword the one he wants: the true greatsword of his father that will give him a family name.

But this is really cool--the Mormonts, the Winter's Child--this could be a really interesting twist.

Ice? :) Teasing a little but half serious haha or will no one take up the Stark sword of legend?

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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