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Sly Wren

GRRM Already Told Us the Tower of Joy Backstory: Wrong Joy, No Hiding, and Fight Elsewhere.

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On 9/20/2018 at 6:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

Hey Sly Wren, stopped in after months and saw you had a new thread so read your theory with interest.  While I think it goes too far to prove some of the more concrete details of your theory, I think your emphasis on displacement (both in this theory and your Dawn theories) as always hits the nail on the head.

Ashara Dayne is characterized as the Helen of Troy of Westeros, so beautiful everyone lines up to dance with or woo her.  And yet, at the end of the tourney, Rhaegar crowns Lyanna Stark the Queen of Love and Beauty - this should have been Ashara in line with the Helen and similar stories, so why the switch?

I would in fact go so far to say that if Rhaegar was contemplating a second bride to fill out his quota of three, with Elia unable to bear children, Ashara was a logical choice.  Lady in waiting and possibly friend to Elia, also his best friend's sister, possessed of an illustrious name, beautiful and above all Dornish, so the Dornish would not be up in arms at a slight to them if he married her in addition to Elia. That crown, both on a thematic and realistic level, belonged to Ashara.

Barristan Selmy tells us Ashara was seduced by a Stark, and women prefer mud over fire.  He's referring to himself as 'mud' but in context, could Ned Stark the Quiet Wolf ever be considered 'fire'?  Who's the fiery 'hot headed' Stark ? - Wild Wolf Brandon Stark who already has a history of seducing a virgin noblewoman (which was not done by nobles as a matter of course - whores, peasants, widows and married women who'd already provided heirs were fair game but noble maids were not). To me, I don't need any more confirmation and have no reason to distrust Selmy in this respect. Brandon Stark seduced Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal.

What's more, Rhaegar found out about the affair - either that they were on the verge or it had already been consummated.  And he, Arthur and Whent (Brandon violated guest right in Whent's family castle) were furious.  Fiance and brother furious, sound familiar?

Brandon's reaction to Rhaegar giving the blue roses to Lyanna - in her lap, remember, not her head - is as if he has been threatened or dishonoured rather than his expected reaction of being honoured.  Think of a spear thrust towards your sister's lap - I mean metaphorically it can't get more explicit he was threatening her with rape or seduction.  The blue rose too is explicitly a Stark symbol that Rhaegar with his reading might have known about.  Bael the Bard and the stolen Stark maiden, and stolen maidenhood.

Everyone seems so caught up in making the Lyanna-Rhaegar connection a romance but other than Lyanna weeping at a sad song, there really is nothing to say any romance between them happened at Harrenhal.  The most we can say is Lyanna might have been attracted to him.

That potential alliance of the Lords to depose Aerys?  Ended when Brandon seduced Ashara.

Much has been made of Dornish free attitudes towards sex, but that's not actually true of the Stoney Dornish, whose culture we are told was more like the rest of Westeros.  If we remember Robert's feelings about Lyanna's abduction, we can perhaps get a sense of how Rhaegar and Arthur felt about Ashara's seduction, not only personally as an attack on their honour but politically as well.

So this is where the displacement comes in, an act of warning and threat.  A sister (Brandon's) for a sister (Arthur's).  A fiance (Robert's) for a fiance (Rhaegar's). Lyanna Stark displaces Ashara Dayne in this story as Queen of Love because the original seduction that ignites events leading to the rebellion is not Rhaegar and Lyanna, but Brandon and Ashara. Rhaegar warns in explicit symbolic language that if Brandon takes Ashara, or if He's already seduced her, he'll take Lyanna in her place.

Brandon's reaction of anger as if to a threat, the bestowing of the crown to Lyanna, both metaphorically and realistically, the end of negotiations for the alliance, Lyanna's later disappearance, Brandon's hotheaded ride to Kings Landing - it all makes sense.

And if Rhaegar and Arthur were in any doubt about whether Brandon actually did the deed at Harrenhal, the doubts would have disappeared when Ashara became pregnant.  Nine months later she gives birth.

The right thing to do, the only noble thing to do in these circumstances for the aristocracy, would have been for Brandon to marry Ashara.  Never mind Rhaegar's original plans, Ashara had been dishonoured, and only a marriage could go any way to diminishing that dishonour.  But as Lady Barbrey told us, Rickard had Southron ambitions. Brandon was engaged to a Lord Paramount's daughter and he or his father for him refused Ashara.

What really struck me in one World Book passage was how bad the weather was - one of the worst pieces of weather in recent times - when Rhaegar, Arthur and Whent decide to go for a jaunt to the Riverlands, just after Ashara gives birth and just before Brandon is to marry Caitlin Tully in the Riverlands. In fact, everyone is travelling there for the wedding.

If our threesome want to force Brandon to marry Ashara instead, they know where they'll find him to force the issue, or failing him, to find Lyanna to force the issue.  And that's what I think happened - they found Lyanna out riding or something at Harrenhal and they did abduct her, not to rape her perhaps, but to threaten Brandon with it so he would call off his wedding and marry Ashara. If he quietly did as they asked, Lyanna might have been returned unharmed with no one much the wiser.

But Brandon hares off to KL, and the rest is history.

This is my theory, and I've been holding to at least the broad outline of it for years now because it makes sense of actions, reactions, events, etc., without much extraneous hypothesizing.  

You can see perhaps too how it fits in with some of your own theories on displacement and the maiden, particularly the Baelish - Caitlin, Lyza, Sans a one. There are Two Maidens, the story we've been given of the Rhaegar Lyanna love story or seduction/abduction is a distorted echo of the first Brandon Ashara story.  I mean, who really ignited the collapse of the kingdom, the war, the deaths,etc?  And who committed suicide when she learned her brother and king were dead, the war lost, as she ostensibly did when she did not after a stillborn child and the death of her lover?  Ashara, and the reason was guilt.  Her transgression started the whole thing.

I want to talk about everything else you've said here but I couldn't until I laid out my own theory, so you can see where and why I might differ on your own theory.

According to my theory here, Rhaegar likely did marry Lyanna, did have Jon with her, because she was his default Ashara (and they might have fallen in love anyway). That does not mean I'm not still open to Arthur as dad (But not Ned, sorry), or to the idea Ashara and/or a child of her and Brandon might be kicking around somewhere!  Aegon?  Bring it!

 

 

I like this a lot. Very well thought out and it fills in a lot of plot holes. 

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57 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I like this a lot. Very well thought out and it fills in a lot of plot holes. 

Thank you!  I liked what you said too because I wondered for a long time if Rhaegar had them both on a string but Ned's thoughts on Rhaegar unlikely to be whoring made it seem like he just wouldn't do something like that.  But he wasn't a pushover, and both he and Arthur seem the type to make good on their threat.  The problem for them was how to do it quietly because word about Ashara's pregnancy hadn't got out yet (most of Westeros still doesn't know) and the whole point would have been to protect her honour.  They couldn't go marching into Winterfell, that would have had political implications, maybe started a war (!) and they'd be off turf.  So they waited till they knew Brandon and/or Lyanna were away from home.

I also like this theory because it relies on cause and effect, and moreover because it has mythological underpinnings: Sly Wren and a number of us had quite a thread going wondering about the relationship between the Daynes and the Starks because they seemed two sides of the same coin, yin and yang but together somehow, like Day (Daynes) and Night (Starks) make up a 24 hour cycle.  In this case, Rhaegar marries night instead of day and It's almost an accident, lol! But also has shades of the entire Persephone myth with both Ashara and Lyanna.

Edited by Lady Barbrey

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On 9/20/2018 at 3:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

Hey Sly Wren, stopped in after months and saw you had a new thread so read your theory with interest.  While I think it goes too far to prove some of the more concrete details of your theory, I think your emphasis on displacement (both in this theory and your Dawn theories) as always hits the nail on the head.

Ashara Dayne is characterized as the Helen of Troy of Westeros, so beautiful everyone lines up to dance with or woo her.  And yet, at the end of the tourney, Rhaegar crowns Lyanna Stark the Queen of Love and Beauty - this should have been Ashara in line with the Helen and similar stories, so why the switch?

I would in fact go so far to say that if Rhaegar was contemplating a second bride to fill out his quota of three, with Elia unable to bear children, Ashara was a logical choice.  Lady in waiting and possibly friend to Elia, also his best friend's sister, possessed of an illustrious name, beautiful and above all Dornish, so the Dornish would not be up in arms at a slight to them if he married her in addition to Elia. That crown, both on a thematic and realistic level, belonged to Ashara.

Barristan Selmy tells us Ashara was seduced by a Stark, and women prefer mud over fire.  He's referring to himself as 'mud' but in context, could Ned Stark the Quiet Wolf ever be considered 'fire'?  Who's the fiery 'hot headed' Stark ? - Wild Wolf Brandon Stark who already has a history of seducing a virgin noblewoman (which was not done by nobles as a matter of course - whores, peasants, widows and married women who'd already provided heirs were fair game but noble maids were not). To me, I don't need any more confirmation and have no reason to distrust Selmy in this respect. Brandon Stark seduced Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal.

What's more, Rhaegar found out about the affair - either that they were on the verge or it had already been consummated.  And he, Arthur and Whent (Brandon violated guest right in Whent's family castle) were furious.  Fiance and brother furious, sound familiar?

Brandon's reaction to Rhaegar giving the blue roses to Lyanna - in her lap, remember, not her head - is as if he has been threatened or dishonoured rather than his expected reaction of being honoured.  Think of a spear thrust towards your sister's lap - I mean metaphorically it can't get more explicit he was threatening her with rape or seduction.  The blue rose too is explicitly a Stark symbol that Rhaegar with his reading might have known about.  Bael the Bard and the stolen Stark maiden, and stolen maidenhood.

Everyone seems so caught up in making the Lyanna-Rhaegar connection a romance but other than Lyanna weeping at a sad song, there really is nothing to say any romance between them happened at Harrenhal.  The most we can say is Lyanna might have been attracted to him.

That potential alliance of the Lords to depose Aerys?  Ended when Brandon seduced Ashara.

Much has been made of Dornish free attitudes towards sex, but that's not actually true of the Stoney Dornish, whose culture we are told was more like the rest of Westeros.  If we remember Robert's feelings about Lyanna's abduction, we can perhaps get a sense of how Rhaegar and Arthur felt about Ashara's seduction, not only personally as an attack on their honour but politically as well.

So this is where the displacement comes in, an act of warning and threat.  A sister (Brandon's) for a sister (Arthur's).  A fiance (Robert's) for a fiance (Rhaegar's). Lyanna Stark displaces Ashara Dayne in this story as Queen of Love because the original seduction that ignites events leading to the rebellion is not Rhaegar and Lyanna, but Brandon and Ashara. Rhaegar warns in explicit symbolic language that if Brandon takes Ashara, or if He's already seduced her, he'll take Lyanna in her place.

Brandon's reaction of anger as if to a threat, the bestowing of the crown to Lyanna, both metaphorically and realistically, the end of negotiations for the alliance, Lyanna's later disappearance, Brandon's hotheaded ride to Kings Landing - it all makes sense.

And if Rhaegar and Arthur were in any doubt about whether Brandon actually did the deed at Harrenhal, the doubts would have disappeared when Ashara became pregnant.  Nine months later she gives birth.

The right thing to do, the only noble thing to do in these circumstances for the aristocracy, would have been for Brandon to marry Ashara.  Never mind Rhaegar's original plans, Ashara had been dishonoured, and only a marriage could go any way to diminishing that dishonour.  But as Lady Barbrey told us, Rickard had Southron ambitions. Brandon was engaged to a Lord Paramount's daughter and he or his father for him refused Ashara.

What really struck me in one World Book passage was how bad the weather was - one of the worst pieces of weather in recent times - when Rhaegar, Arthur and Whent decide to go for a jaunt to the Riverlands, just after Ashara gives birth and just before Brandon is to marry Caitlin Tully in the Riverlands. In fact, everyone is travelling there for the wedding.

If our threesome want to force Brandon to marry Ashara instead, they know where they'll find him to force the issue, or failing him, to find Lyanna to force the issue.  And that's what I think happened - they found Lyanna out riding or something at Harrenhal and they did abduct her, not to rape her perhaps, but to threaten Brandon with it so he would call off his wedding and marry Ashara. If he quietly did as they asked, Lyanna might have been returned unharmed with no one much the wiser.

But Brandon hares off to KL, and the rest is history.

This is my theory, and I've been holding to at least the broad outline of it for years now because it makes sense of actions, reactions, events, etc., without much extraneous hypothesizing.  

You can see perhaps too how it fits in with some of your own theories on displacement and the maiden, particularly the Baelish - Caitlin, Lyza, Sans a one. There are Two Maidens, the story we've been given of the Rhaegar Lyanna love story or seduction/abduction is a distorted echo of the first Brandon Ashara story.  I mean, who really ignited the collapse of the kingdom, the war, the deaths,etc?  And who committed suicide when she learned her brother and king were dead, the war lost, as she ostensibly did when she did not after a stillborn child and the death of her lover?  Ashara, and the reason was guilt.  Her transgression started the whole thing.

I want to talk about everything else you've said here but I couldn't until I laid out my own theory, so you can see where and why I might differ on your own theory.

According to my theory here, Rhaegar likely did marry Lyanna, did have Jon with her, because she was his default Ashara (and they might have fallen in love anyway). That does not mean I'm not still open to Arthur as dad (But not Ned, sorry), or to the idea Ashara and/or a child of her and Brandon might be kicking around somewhere!  Aegon?  Bring it!

 

 

My biggest problem is the timing. 

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.
As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

 

 
The False Spring lasted less than two months, and ended on the last day of the year. Sometime within that next month, before the green fires burned, Rhaegar had already taken off and couldn't be found on Dragonstone. 

I dont see how Brandon got Ashara pregnant and birthed a child before late 282Ac. Which neither Jon or Dany was born then. Either way, Rhaegar has no time to know she's pregnant. 
 
Maybe amend that part, and just stick to the dishonor of sleeping with her out of wedlock as the cause of Rhaegar and Arthur's actions? Not that i'm on board but that would fix that problem. 
 
Edited by AlaskanSandman

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11 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

My biggest problem is the timing. 

 

 
The False Spring lasted less than two months, and ended on the last day of the year. Sometime within that next month, before the green fires burned, Rhaegar had already taken off and couldn't be found on Dragonstone. 

I dont see how Brandon got Ashara pregnant and birthed a child before late 282Ac. Which neither Jon or Dany was born then. Either way, Rhaegar has no time to know she's pregnant. 
 
Maybe amend that part, and just stick to the dishonor of sleeping with her out of wedlock as the cause of Rhaegar and Arthur's actions? Not that i'm on board but that would fix that problem. 
 

Actually if the child wasn't born yet that would make my argument for cancelling the wedding and a quick marriage to Ashara even stronger. And it only takes a few missed periods to know if you're pregnant.  Looks like they took off as soon as they knew.  Thank you!  I thought I had checked that against a timeline in the wiki - maybe not.  It was a long time ago when I developed this theory.

Edited by Lady Barbrey

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3 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Actually if the child wasn't born yet that would make my argument for cancelling the wedding and a quick marriage to Ashara even stronger. And it only takes a few missed periods to know if you're pregnant.  Looks like they took off as soon as they knew.  Thank you!  I thought I had checked that against a timeline in the wiki - maybe not.  It was a long time ago when I developed this theory.

Yea, didn't seem like anything that would crush your theory haha and wasn't trying to. Just thought that would help tighten it :)

Im lone touting Mance as Jon's father tho haha ;) 

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5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea, didn't seem like anything that would crush your theory haha and wasn't trying to. Just thought that would help tighten it :)

Im lone touting Mance as Jon's father tho haha ;) 

The chances are good for Mance being Jon's dad.  It's a better fit with the pattern established by Bael.

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On 9/20/2018 at 11:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

Hey Sly Wren, stopped in after months and saw you had a new thread so read your theory with interest.  While I think it goes too far to prove some of the more concrete details of your theory, I think your emphasis on displacement (both in this theory and your Dawn theories) as always hits the nail on the head.

Ashara Dayne is characterized as the Helen of Troy of Westeros, so beautiful everyone lines up to dance with or woo her.  And yet, at the end of the tourney, Rhaegar crowns Lyanna Stark the Queen of Love and Beauty - this should have been Ashara in line with the Helen and similar stories, so why the switch?

I would in fact go so far to say that if Rhaegar was contemplating a second bride to fill out his quota of three, with Elia unable to bear children, Ashara was a logical choice.  Lady in waiting and possibly friend to Elia, also his best friend's sister, possessed of an illustrious name, beautiful and above all Dornish, so the Dornish would not be up in arms at a slight to them if he married her in addition to Elia. That crown, both on a thematic and realistic level, belonged to Ashara.

Barristan Selmy tells us Ashara was seduced by a Stark, and women prefer mud over fire.  He's referring to himself as 'mud' but in context, could Ned Stark the Quiet Wolf ever be considered 'fire'?  Who's the fiery 'hot headed' Stark ? - Wild Wolf Brandon Stark who already has a history of seducing a virgin noblewoman (which was not done by nobles as a matter of course - whores, peasants, widows and married women who'd already provided heirs were fair game but noble maids were not). To me, I don't need any more confirmation and have no reason to distrust Selmy in this respect. Brandon Stark seduced Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal.

What's more, Rhaegar found out about the affair - either that they were on the verge or it had already been consummated.  And he, Arthur and Whent (Brandon violated guest right in Whent's family castle) were furious.  Fiance and brother furious, sound familiar?

Brandon's reaction to Rhaegar giving the blue roses to Lyanna - in her lap, remember, not her head - is as if he has been threatened or dishonoured rather than his expected reaction of being honoured.  Think of a spear thrust towards your sister's lap - I mean metaphorically it can't get more explicit he was threatening her with rape or seduction.  The blue rose too is explicitly a Stark symbol that Rhaegar with his reading might have known about.  Bael the Bard and the stolen Stark maiden, and stolen maidenhood.

Everyone seems so caught up in making the Lyanna-Rhaegar connection a romance but other than Lyanna weeping at a sad song, there really is nothing to say any romance between them happened at Harrenhal.  The most we can say is Lyanna might have been attracted to him.

That potential alliance of the Lords to depose Aerys?  Ended when Brandon seduced Ashara.

Much has been made of Dornish free attitudes towards sex, but that's not actually true of the Stoney Dornish, whose culture we are told was more like the rest of Westeros.  If we remember Robert's feelings about Lyanna's abduction, we can perhaps get a sense of how Rhaegar and Arthur felt about Ashara's seduction, not only personally as an attack on their honour but politically as well.

So this is where the displacement comes in, an act of warning and threat.  A sister (Brandon's) for a sister (Arthur's).  A fiance (Robert's) for a fiance (Rhaegar's). Lyanna Stark displaces Ashara Dayne in this story as Queen of Love because the original seduction that ignites events leading to the rebellion is not Rhaegar and Lyanna, but Brandon and Ashara. Rhaegar warns in explicit symbolic language that if Brandon takes Ashara, or if He's already seduced her, he'll take Lyanna in her place.

Brandon's reaction of anger as if to a threat, the bestowing of the crown to Lyanna, both metaphorically and realistically, the end of negotiations for the alliance, Lyanna's later disappearance, Brandon's hotheaded ride to Kings Landing - it all makes sense.

And if Rhaegar and Arthur were in any doubt about whether Brandon actually did the deed at Harrenhal, the doubts would have disappeared when Ashara became pregnant.  Nine months later she gives birth.

The right thing to do, the only noble thing to do in these circumstances for the aristocracy, would have been for Brandon to marry Ashara.  Never mind Rhaegar's original plans, Ashara had been dishonoured, and only a marriage could go any way to diminishing that dishonour.  But as Lady Barbrey told us, Rickard had Southron ambitions. Brandon was engaged to a Lord Paramount's daughter and he or his father for him refused Ashara.

What really struck me in one World Book passage was how bad the weather was - one of the worst pieces of weather in recent times - when Rhaegar, Arthur and Whent decide to go for a jaunt to the Riverlands, just after Ashara gives birth and just before Brandon is to marry Caitlin Tully in the Riverlands. In fact, everyone is travelling there for the wedding.

If our threesome want to force Brandon to marry Ashara instead, they know where they'll find him to force the issue, or failing him, to find Lyanna to force the issue.  And that's what I think happened - they found Lyanna out riding or something at Harrenhal and they did abduct her, not to rape her perhaps, but to threaten Brandon with it so he would call off his wedding and marry Ashara. If he quietly did as they asked, Lyanna might have been returned unharmed with no one much the wiser.

But Brandon hares off to KL, and the rest is history.

This is my theory, and I've been holding to at least the broad outline of it for years now because it makes sense of actions, reactions, events, etc., without much extraneous hypothesizing.  

You can see perhaps too how it fits in with some of your own theories on displacement and the maiden, particularly the Baelish - Caitlin, Lyza, Sans a one. There are Two Maidens, the story we've been given of the Rhaegar Lyanna love story or seduction/abduction is a distorted echo of the first Brandon Ashara story.  I mean, who really ignited the collapse of the kingdom, the war, the deaths,etc?  And who committed suicide when she learned her brother and king were dead, the war lost, as she ostensibly did when she did not after a stillborn child and the death of her lover?  Ashara, and the reason was guilt.  Her transgression started the whole thing.

I want to talk about everything else you've said here but I couldn't until I laid out my own theory, so you can see where and why I might differ on your own theory.

According to my theory here, Rhaegar likely did marry Lyanna, did have Jon with her, because she was his default Ashara (and they might have fallen in love anyway). That does not mean I'm not still open to Arthur as dad (But not Ned, sorry), or to the idea Ashara and/or a child of her and Brandon might be kicking around somewhere!  Aegon?  Bring it!

 

 

I like this a lot, but why didn't Ashara just drink moontea? If she were to marry Rhaegar and possibly be queen, wouldn't it be smart for her to get "rid of the problem"?

I know there is a slight risk of it damaging a woman's fertility like Lysa, but Asha and Arianne imply that they haven taken moontea many times and their fertility doesn't seem to have been affected, so if the title as queen and a prophecy are at stake why wouldn't Ashara just drink moontea?

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While I like the displacement theory, it doesn't adequately explain why Eddard didn't hate Rhaegar.  The Starks are not  a forgiving people (the North remembers) and they are very easy to take offense.  Eddard disliked Littlefinger just for daring to fall in love with Catelyn.  Imagine the son of a lesser lord daring to fall in love with Catelyn and then challenging Brandon to a duel.  What an act of sin that was in the eyes of a Stark.   All I'm saying is the Starks would be hating on Rhaegar if he had even so much as touched Lyanna's hair.  Ooops, I meant head hair  :D

A married man with children of his own touching their sister.  That's enough for Eddard to hate Rhaegar.  But he didn't.  Maybe Lyanna ran away from home.  She found Rhaegar and invoked the ancient custom of guest rights to seek his shelter.  Rhaegar seems like an honorable fool.  Just the sort of guy who would take in a "maiden" in distress even if it's not the bright thing to do.   

 

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On September 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Yrgritte doesnt' parallel Jon and never words it to Jon as such. She round about tells Jon that the wildlings and Starks are blood yes, but Bael refused to fight his son at the wall and thus lost, same as Mance. 

Agreed on Mance and Jon's fight--though Mance wasn't really in a fight for his life--he had other plans.

And I do like the parallel--underscores Mance as Rhaegar/Bael figure--and thus shows us again how a Stark Maid reacts: not enthralled.

On Ygritte: not really roundabout, though: it's the whole point of the story, to prove that he's as much her kin as the men she lost.

On September 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Rhaegars not in the midst of planning a rebellion though, his father saw to that. 

But he had been planning something at Harrenhal--Aerys' showing up wouldn't stop it. Just make it more difficult.

Rhaegar had been willing to kill his father using someone else's rebellion since Duskendale. He'd been working on this for years. He still had a plan--and was executing it. 

On September 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Rhaegar would have met Mance when discovering the Night of the Laughing Tree at the least, and need Mance to step down so Rhaegar can win.

A cool theory--any evidence Rhaegar absolutely found out who the knight was?

On September 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Supplies and men is something Mance would have been sent south for first of all. Music and the Tourney and likely seeing Rhaegar play is just common ground for them once meeting. An ice breaker maybe or just a common hobby. I play guitar, so any one who plays guitar i can sit and chat with, and do. People who share interest tend to get along better than those that don't. A level of respect between them if you will.

Fair enough--I agree it's plausible. Just struggling to see the hints/evidence. . . 

On September 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Mance would still want Lyanna crowned

Why? Sorry--I think I missed part of your original argument. I've had to be away and am thus behind.

On September 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

and Rhaegar may still be asking Mance about his families sword that Rhaegar likely knows was taken North by Bloodraven.

Why ask Mance and not Aemon?

On September 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

So they may have met before the unmasking of the Knight, or only at the Unmasking. And with Owen Merryweather, the hand of the King, likely in K.L. Rhaegar would be the next likely man to see. 

I admit it's possible. . . just struggling to see the evidence/hints. But it would be cool.

On September 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

With everything about his name Bael and it's spelling, the likely timing he existed, his possible blood ties to Valyria, and House Stark, and the Lord Stark started it all by calling a then wildling (not king yet) a coward.

On the bolded--no: it was a long feud. That was just the latest insult. 

Not unlike Tywin's putting up with Aerys' behavior for years: and then Aerys called him a servant and refused to marry Cersei to Rhaegar or to name Jaime as Rhaegar's squire. 

And not unlike Walder Frey's MASSIVE chip on his shoulder over years of perceived and actual slights--leading to his being will to kill Robb and company.

On September 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

I doubt it Bael was just some random raper and raider. Saying to Jon from Ygritte that they are blood is silly, no duh they are blood. They both come from the first men. So Bael is redundant under that logic imo

I could definitely see this re: Bael. But Ygritte is claiming a specific ancestral connection. Drives the point home more than just "first men."

On September 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea, we're seeing those mirrors a little different haha Sansa (Lyanna) was given a rose by someone not interested in her, and taken by some one else entirely who didn't compete, Peter Baelish (means not Rhaegar as he gave the rose to some one he was not interested in). 

Or--means the echoes/parallels aren't ever going to be complete and exact?

On September 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

As GRRM said, its a fever dream and not to be taken literally. You even postulate that Lyanna was never at the Tower.

Agreed--though I do think Lyanna might have been at the tower the was Sansa was: temporarily.

On September 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

If Daenerys is the child of Rhaegar and Ashara Dayne, then that is who the K.G. were guarding, not Lyanna and her child. Which would explain why Arthur Dayne would be there for sure.That is the mirror to Alysanne and Queen's crown tower.

Agreed--even if the "tower" was elsewhere (IE: Starfall's Palestine Sword)

. Like Arianne as the princess in the tower.

On September 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Lyanna's is something to do with a crypt imo, hence Jon being drawn to the Crypts, hence Mance having his spearwives search for the entrance to the Crypts.

One problem with this: In his dreams, Jon is drawn far, far deeper into the crypts than to Lyanna. All the way down to the Old Kings of Winter sowing out of their tombs. Or are you thinking Mance wanted something deep in the tombs?

On September 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Mance tasted the Dornishman's (Robert is a Marcher Lord, Marcher lords is the name given to the lords of the stormlands and the Reach within the Dornish Marches.) wife (Lyanna Stark).

Yeah--Robert as a Dornishman is. . . hard. He's the Storm Lord. Period. Gonna need more to make this work.

On September 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Which is the first thing he says to Jon, howd you like the song? To which Jon replies that he's heard it before. To which Mance looks at him and repeats the line, about tasting the Dornishman's wife before switching subjects quickly. 

I do think Mance's look is significant. And I do think the song is a clue--though possibly more for the reader than for Jon, like Mance's red and black cloak.

On September 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

I have a feeling Mance didn't know Lyanna had his child untill he saw Jon at Winterfell. Hence Lyanna's hiding. 

Why would he assume a boy that looks like Ned Stark and is claimed by Ned Stark as his child was Lyanna's?

On September 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Though hey, i could be wrong :) 

HA! My house words! We're blood, dude!:cheers:

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On September 17, 2018 at 11:31 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea just more throwing it out there haha Their ancestral sword just makes me think of the Others, and with all the 13 stuff between Bran, Bloodraven, and Jon, i wouldn't be shocked. 

And Jon wielding the Hero's sword and having the typical Hero's journey seems off to me with GRRM. I also suspect that Daenerys will get that sword if any one. The likely hood of Dawn being brought up to Jon seems unlikely to me. Dany in her discovery of the Red Door, will be lead down that path i believe. Her story is that of Dorne, not Jon, he is of the North. 

All fair--though Jon's the one who, hearing Mance's song, thinks of how odd it is to hear a Dornish song of the red mountains so far north. Jon's thoughts not the juxtaposition of north and south, warmth and cold.

Only Jojen comes close to the sentiment, noting that the land is one. 

Dany's all about conquering. Jon's the "old hand at justice"--at dawn. By sword.

But I do think Dany is of Dorne--and Ashara's.

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On September 18, 2018 at 8:19 PM, Seams said:

It wasn't just any executioner who used the Stark blade; the man who wielded the sword was Ser Ilyn Payne. My earlier musings linked him to Arthur Dayne because of the rhyming surnames but also the white / silver sword: the Dayne sigil includes a white sword (presumably Dawn) and Ser Ilyn carries a silver sword at Joffrey's wedding feast, providing it to Joffrey for the cutting of the pigeon pie.

Ser Ilyn's title is The King's Justice. Long ago I speculated that the sword Ice was originally called Justice - perhaps a companion blade to the sword Truth. So there's something going on with the specific person of Ilyn Payne and the sword Ice but, at the same time, the silver sword (also distinctive because it is covered with runes).

I'm liking this! Though I think that Payne is more an echo--because he's the opposite of the Justice that Ned teaches his boys: he enables the King to not have to look into a man's eyes, hear his last word, and swing the sword himself.

Payne thus ends up being a perversion of Justice. I think that this is all a tie back to the Day's King and the Night's King. That Ned, riding out at dawn to give justice to a deserter--that whole scene is showing us how justice should work: with Ned as the King.  But Payne's killing Ned with his own sword--I think @Voice and other have this right: this is the opposite of justice.

And I think there's a decent chance it's an echo of what Ned did to Arthur--Night's King descendant killing Day's King descendant with Dawn.

On September 18, 2018 at 8:19 PM, Seams said:

Is there any chance that Ser Ilyn's silver sword is Dawn? No one has mentioned that the Dayne sword was stolen or out of place, and its last known location was Starfall, after Ned left the Tower of Joy. If your speculation is correct, that the ancient, original sword Ice is the sword Dawn, then Joffrey would have used the sword Ice to slice the pie that killed him. (I realize the piece he ate came from a different pie and the one with the birds was symbolic.) As I said earlier, GRRM loves irony.

No--Tywin gave Payne the silver sword because Tywin wanted Ice.

In that sense, I think the silver sword might be an echo of what I think Ice is--the stand in for Dawn. Because Dawn was taken from the unworthy Night's King (Battle for the Dawn) and sent south with the worthy Day's King. To be bestowed ONLY on the worthy.

In that sense--it would still be ironic. Just in a different way.

On September 18, 2018 at 8:19 PM, Seams said:

But Payne is not the same as Dayne, in spite of the rhyme. I can't explain why Ser Ilyn would have the Dayne family sword. Ser Ilyn is, in some ways, Tywin Lannister's direwolf - very loyal and, like Jon Snow's direwolf, silent. When Tywin dies, Jaime liberates Ser Ilyn from his dungeon cell (the King's Justice and jailkeeper lived like a prisoner) and takes him to the Riverlands and a sparring partner and confidant. Originally, Ser Arthur Dayne had been a mentor to Jaime. Now Ser Ilyn is filling a similar role.

Are we all 100% sure that Arthur died at the Tower of Joy? I know Ser Ilyn's tongue was cut out by King Aerys - or so we are told. Arthur Dayne could not have had a conversation with Ned at the Tower of Joy if he was the same person as Ser Ilyn and had already had his tongue cut out. Maybe they are just parallel, echo characters, not the same guy.

I think the rhyme is to tie into the echo. Plus, Martin's SSM says "Dawn waits at Starfall"--really sounds like the sword is there. Present tense.

As for Arthur's still be alive--that would be awesome. But really think Jaime would notice if Payne was Dayne--Jaime is a world class Arthur fanboy.

No--I think Ilyn is an echo--and a dark one. He's not what Justice should be.

On September 19, 2018 at 8:57 AM, Seams said:

Maybe Dawn symbolizes the scientific method or enlightenment or the necessary Eureka moment of insight that allows scientists to zero in on a cure.

Or maybe it is just the weapon that will eventually result in the hero's death, after the "disease" of the White Walkers has been cured.

I keep coming back to the first chapter of Game when it comes to this subject: in the prologue, we see the Others, that they examine Waymar's sword before attacking, then they attack they win--apparently, Waymar's sword didn't scare them.

The next narrative move? Ned's riding out at dawn with his boys to deliver justice--in the old way. 

I really think there's a strong chance that Martin is telling us what needs to be done: justice, not conquering or vengeance, needs to be restored to restore balance--of seasons, of night and day, of life.

That, following @Voice's miasma theory, would cure the infection/injustice. 

And I think Dawn is the sword that's supposed to do this--like the story of Just Maid, the sword could be misused. But instead, it needs to be "rightly" used. For justice. By Jon--the old hand at justice.

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On September 17, 2018 at 5:02 PM, ravenous reader said:

For the purposes of his symbolic relations, GRRM often employs inversions. Thus, at the Tower of Joy the hostages (Lyanna and baby Jon) are on the inside of the tower, with the savior/s (Ned aided by Howland Reed) on the outside; whereas at Queenscrown the hostages (the silent old man and adult Jon) are on the outside, with the savior/s (Bran plus the Reeds) on the inside! Similarly, Jon is moving South, in contrast to Bran who is journeying North, with their paths fatefully crossing at Queenscrown. Bran goes under the Wall, while Jon climbs over it, etc.  

This kind of inversion is in line with what you've already identified on the 'Upstairs Downstairs' and 'Direwolves don't Cry' threads, in which one character's ascent is matched with another character's descent. 

The equivalent of the Kingsguard are therefore the Wildlings, who increasingly view Jon with suspicion, and advocate killing him. This would dovetail with the 'heretic' view that Lyanna and Jon were meant to be sacrificed by the Kingsguard on Rhaegar's orders in some kind of dragon-hatching, second-lifing blood magic ritual.

Accordingly, the execution scene of the old man, and the impending threat against Jon, reads like a ritual sacrifice, complete with the Magnar of Thenn uttering words in the old tongue, echoing all the other magical incantations with which GRRM so frequently plays -- culminating in a lightning intervention.

Very cool--I'm not at all good at inversion-based analysis like this--I do a a lot better at echoes, since I struggle to be able to make the inversions work.

All that said--am wondering if hostages have to be inside the tower of joy for this kind of analysis to work. 

We've got Sansa in the Maiden's Tower of the Eyrie--white tower; Arianne in the Spear Tower--tall, thin tower; Val in the king's tower at Castle Black; and the story of Ashara falling from the Palestine Sword--tall white tower. Martin keeps showing us maidens in castle towers as effective hostages while never showing us Stark maids holed up in isolated towers--seems like there might be a reason for this.

I'm loving the analysis of the old man as a sacrifice. Fits somewhat with the fight outside Dany's tent--the death of the KG reads like a potential sacrifice to me. Even fits with Ned's death somewhat.

And I do think Rhaegar might have been willing to sacrifice someone--he's definitely willing to let the kingdom blow up. Just struggling to see hints that he was after the Stark maid and/or her child for that sacrifice. . . are you thinking maybe the hint is via Stannis?

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On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

Hey Sly Wren, stopped in after months and saw you had a new thread so read your theory with interest.

Hey! Wonderful to see you again! Sorry for the delay--I've had to be away this week.

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

Ashara Dayne is characterized as the Helen of Troy of Westeros, so beautiful everyone lines up to dance with or woo her.  And yet, at the end of the tourney, Rhaegar crowns Lyanna Stark the Queen of Love and Beauty - this should have been Ashara in line with the Helen and similar stories, so why the switch?

I would in fact go so far to say that if Rhaegar was contemplating a second bride to fill out his quota of three, with Elia unable to bear children, Ashara was a logical choice.  Lady in waiting and possibly friend to Elia, also his best friend's sister, possessed of an illustrious name, beautiful and above all Dornish, so the Dornish would not be up in arms at a slight to them if he married her in addition to Elia. That crown, both on a thematic and realistic level, belonged to Ashara.

Agreed--even fits with what we see with Stannis and his cult--Loyal, if not terribly loving, wife (Selyse/Elia); Noble, devoted, if occasionally muddled, knight-follower (Davos/Arthur); and paramour/magical beauty (Melisandre/Ashara).

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

Barristan Selmy tells us Ashara was seduced by a Stark, and women prefer mud over fire.

Wait--he says she "turned to Stark," right? So, some wiggle room on the "seduced," no?

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

He's referring to himself as 'mud' but in context, could Ned Stark the Quiet Wolf ever be considered 'fire'?  Who's the fiery 'hot headed' Stark ? - Wild Wolf Brandon Stark who already has a history of seducing a virgin noblewoman (which was not done by nobles as a matter of course - whores, peasants, widows and married women who'd already provided heirs were fair game but noble maids were not). To me, I don't need any more confirmation and have no reason to distrust Selmy in this respect. Brandon Stark seduced Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal.

I agree that Brandon is a prime candidate. But want to be careful on the "mud" front--Barristan thinks this when he's assessing Dany's take on Quentyn. Not on himself. Plus, Rhaegar would definitely count as fire. . . 

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

What's more, Rhaegar found out about the affair - either that they were on the verge or it had already been consummated.  And he, Arthur and Whent (Brandon violated guest right in Whent's family castle) were furious.  Fiance and brother furious, sound familiar?

I could buy this--though we have some evidence that Rhaegar isn't all that passionate. It's limited, but Ned's take on Rhaegar's not frequenting brothels--the same assessment he and Robert make of Stannis--seems like there's a chance Rhaegar was, as Selmy himself says, dutiful and deliberate--no mention of "passionate." 

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

Brandon's reaction to Rhaegar giving the blue roses to Lyanna - in her lap, remember, not her head - is as if he has been threatened or dishonoured rather than his expected reaction of being honoured.  Think of a spear thrust towards your sister's lap - I mean metaphorically it can't get more explicit he was threatening her with rape or seduction.  The blue rose too is explicitly a Stark symbol that Rhaegar with his reading might have known about.  Bael the Bard and the stolen Stark maiden, and stolen maidenhood.

Maybe--but Martin also gives us Jon's reaction to Arya's potential abuse.

I do think the rose would work in your reading, though. The Bael Tale is about using the Maid as a weapon to insult her father. So, you're thinking Rhaegar had a beef with Brandon, not the Starks as a whole? 

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

Everyone seems so caught up in making the Lyanna-Rhaegar connection a romance but other than Lyanna weeping at a sad song, there really is nothing to say any romance between them happened at Harrenhal.  The most we can say is Lyanna might have been attracted to him.

Agreed--and given what we see of the three stolen Stark Maids (Arya, Sansa, and Jon), really seems like Martin is hammering home that they aren't attracted to Rhaegar/Bael figures.

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

That potential alliance of the Lords to depose Aerys?  Ended when Brandon seduced Ashara.

Much has been made of Dornish free attitudes towards sex, but that's not actually true of the Stoney Dornish, whose culture we are told was more like the rest of Westeros.  If we remember Robert's feelings about Lyanna's abduction, we can perhaps get a sense of how Rhaegar and Arthur felt about Ashara's seduction, not only personally as an attack on their honour but politically as well.

Possible--we even have the World Book's saying the Stoney Dornish are like the Mountain Clans of the Vale. And we have the mountain clans in the North, too.

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

So this is where the displacement comes in, an act of warning and threat.  A sister (Brandon's) for a sister (Arthur's).  A fiance (Robert's) for a fiance (Rhaegar's). Lyanna Stark displaces Ashara Dayne in this story as Queen of Love because the original seduction that ignites events leading to the rebellion is not Rhaegar and Lyanna, but Brandon and Ashara. Rhaegar warns in explicit symbolic language that if Brandon takes Ashara, or if He's already seduced her, he'll take Lyanna in her place.

Workable--and really makes both Rhaegar and Brandon into Kings of Douchebaggery.

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

Brandon's reaction of anger as if to a threat, the bestowing of the crown to Lyanna, both metaphorically and realistically, the end of negotiations for the alliance, Lyanna's later disappearance, Brandon's hotheaded ride to Kings Landing - it all makes sense.

On the bolded--problem is, we have other, better evidenced potential parallels. Biggest one: Jon's riding for Winterfell after word of "Arya's" escape. And Robb's riding for his father and sisters. And Ned's going to King's Landing. All are called to save a beloved family member based on a deceitful letter. And in the case of Ned, the whole point was to start a war that Baelish could use for power.

We know Rhaegar and Tywin were willing to use other's anger to start rebellions so they could gain power. Really think Brandon was goaded hoping to start a war. If so, would want to bait the person most likely to bite--hothead Brandon. Not Ned in the Vale--Jon Arryn has to encourage Ned to call his banners. Apparently not Rickard. 

Throw in that Rhaegar hides during the whole bloody war, just like Tywin--that seems to fit less with just a personal spat over a girl and more like a deliberate plan.

After all, even in the Bael Tale, they aren't fighting over a girl. The poor kid is just a pawn.

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

And if Rhaegar and Arthur were in any doubt about whether Brandon actually did the deed at Harrenhal, the doubts would have disappeared when Ashara became pregnant.  Nine months later she gives birth.

Possible, but not known. At all--we don't know when her baby was born/miscarried. Not yet.

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

The right thing to do, the only noble thing to do in these circumstances for the aristocracy, would have been for Brandon to marry Ashara.  Never mind Rhaegar's original plans, Ashara had been dishonoured, and only a marriage could go any way to diminishing that dishonour.  But as Lady Barbrey told us, Rickard had Southron ambitions. Brandon was engaged to a Lord Paramount's daughter and he or his father for him refused Ashara.

Nice--possible. I like it.

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

What really struck me in one World Book passage was how bad the weather was - one of the worst pieces of weather in recent times - when Rhaegar, Arthur and Whent decide to go for a jaunt to the Riverlands, just after Ashara gives birth and just before Brandon is to marry Caitlin Tully in the Riverlands. In fact, everyone is travelling there for the wedding.

On the bolded--not yet known.

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

If our threesome want to force Brandon to marry Ashara instead, they know where they'll find him to force the issue, or failing him, to find Lyanna to force the issue.  And that's what I think happened - they found Lyanna out riding or something at Harrenhal and they did abduct her, not to rape her perhaps, but to threaten Brandon with it so he would call off his wedding and marry Ashara. If he quietly did as they asked, Lyanna might have been returned unharmed with no one much the wiser.

Maybe--can you think of a parallel/hint in the text?

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

But Brandon hares off to KL, and the rest is history.

Right--and I think that was the actual point of sending him word. Actually, I think like Ned, Jon, and even Robb--Brandon was lied to: I think there's a solid chance he was told Rhaegar killed Lyanna. That would explain why he called for Rhaegar to come out an die, but not for his sister.

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

This is my theory, and I've been holding to at least the broad outline of it for years now because it makes sense of actions, reactions, events, etc., without much extraneous hypothesizing.  

True--just struggling on a few holes--like why Rhaegar hides when all hell breaks loose. And why we are shown three other Stark men being lured with letters about their loved ones--for the purpose of starting general wars/fights.

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

You can see perhaps too how it fits in with some of your own theories on displacement and the maiden, particularly the Baelish - Caitlin, Lyza, Sans a one. There are Two Maidens, the story we've been given of the Rhaegar Lyanna love story or seduction/abduction is a distorted echo of the first Brandon Ashara story.  I mean, who really ignited the collapse of the kingdom, the war, the deaths,etc?  And who committed suicide when she learned her brother and king were dead, the war lost, as she ostensibly did when she did not after a stillborn child and the death of her lover?  Ashara, and the reason was guilt.  Her transgression started the whole thing.

I like it--though I don't think we have enough yet to innately cast her as Helen.

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

I want to talk about everything else you've said here but I couldn't until I laid out my own theory, so you can see where and why I might differ on your own theory.

According to my theory here, Rhaegar likely did marry Lyanna, did have Jon with her, because she was his default Ashara (and they might have fallen in love anyway).

For me, given that Martin shows us 3 Stark Maids with Rhaegar/Bael figures or KG figures, and never shows them romantically involved with those figures--pushes against Lyanna's loving Rhaegar. Plus, you have Jon with Ygritte and Arya's being attracted to a Baratheon and even a Dayne. 

Only other option is creepy manipulation--like Baelish and Sansa. 

Also--on the Ashara front, I really think both Lysa and Melisandre give us potential info on Ashara. And the above scenario wouldn't quite fit. But that could very well be because I have Lysa/Melisandre glasses on at the moment--(and the view from their perspective isn't remotely pleasant)--would make it possible that, like Lysa, Ashara had longed for Rhaegar, only to see him marry another from a greater house. 

Not unlike Barbery's longing for and Brandon. And Baelish's unending obsession with Cat.

Then, like Lysa, Ashara finally gets him when he needs her for his plot/purpose, only to lose him: 

He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince. Feast, Cat of the Canals.

If that quote is a hint at Ashara--seems like we should be looking for someone who might be trying to get revenge. Less Helen of Troy and more a vengeance plot (only one I can think of is Medea, and pretty sure that doesn't apply, so will stop now).

On September 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

That does not mean I'm not still open to Arthur as dad (But not Ned, sorry), or to the idea Ashara and/or a child of her and Brandon might be kicking around somewhere!  Aegon?  Bring it!

On the bolded--HA!

And not too sure I "brought it" with my critique--see what you think above--if anything is decipherable through my current prejudices. 

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On September 20, 2018 at 10:57 PM, acwill07 said:

This is a perfect example of overthinking the text.  Unfortunately this runs rampant in the GOT community.  It's ridiculous.

1. Don't deny I could be overthinking--we all do that at some point--as you say, it runs rampant.

2. But why do you think looking at the 3 Stolen Stark maids (who are tied to Lyanna) for clues is overthinking the text? Martin didn't have to have the tower or the KG convo echoed in their stories. Didn't have to have all three of them deal with KG or Bael/Rhaegar figures. Really seems like Martin did that on purpose.

So, any reason why looking at them for clues is innately "overthinking the text?" 

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On September 20, 2018 at 11:07 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

Hi again, Sly Wren,  so I am hoping you'll read my above take on events between Brandon/Ashara/Rhaegar etc before you read this one, where I want to address your wrap up.

To point #1 - agree partially they are all significant

#2 According to my theory, I fully agree with you here.  Lyanna was NOT the target or primary mission of her captors.

:cheers:

Quote

#3 It's very possible Lyanna spent at least part of that time at Starfall with Ashara, either under an assumed name or her own.  And I doubt she felt much joy at the beginning. Later, I don't know.  I also think if Rhaegar named it Tower of Joy he was being cynical.

On the bolded--hadn't thought of that. But would fit with Baelish's sarcasm re: the Drearfort.

But I do also think Rhaegar might be straight with it--and that it was a tower of joy with another woman, as it is for Baelish and Lysa. Or as Stannis seems to be with Melisandre. ETA: though even in those instances, if Rhaegar is like Stannis, he could still be being cynical.

Quote

#4 and so on - I am not following the logic or the rationale for the logic in the Dunk tales.  If one had a choice and could pre-assign a more ritualized fight away from a tower, then perhaps one might do so.  But if one has a pregnant woman that can't be moved in a tower, there might not be a choice.

Agreed that if they are stuck in the tower, the fight happening there would be inevitable.

My point in including all three echoes: Martin specifically shows us that Stark maids in the current tale don't hole up in run down towers, even when they have them. They hide in plain sight out in the open. Or in plain sight at more fortified locales.

If that pattern is a clue, then the three KG wouldn't be just hoping they don't get surprised. They, like Dunk, would leave the place they were guarding and rid out.

The main things that struck me with Dunk are the strong symbolism tying him to Arthur and the Daynes; and the convo about the tower--it's published one year after that SSM we all like to cite about Ned's dream not being literal.

So many ways Martin could have written this particular tale--why have his Dayne figure argue about a tower fight? There's a whopping big chance I'm overdoing this, but that really seems like a potential hint.

Quote

Moreover, whether Lyanna was at the Tower or Starfall the entire time would not be an issue except that in the case the Rebellion succeeded, she could not be found at Starfall or would risk the lives of all its inhabitants. 

I agree it would risk the inhabitants--like it will be a risk to the Vale if Sansa gets found out. Or like a risk to Lady Smallwood if she knows too much about the Brotherhood--so she doesn't what to know who Arya is, even though she helps her. 

And I think this is a potential reason why the Daynes seem to like Ned so much, as shown by Edric/Ned Dayne: Ned wouldn't just be keeping Jon safe by his lies and silence--he'd be protecting the Daynes as well. Yes, he and Howland killed Arthur--but Ned also made amends by working to save the family.

It's also a workable explanation as to why Ned completely silences all gossip about Ashara at Winterfell--and terrifies Cat in the process--he's protecting the Daynes (though there are obviously other potential explanations for why Ned does that).

Quote

But convince me if you've got more on this one! These books totally bored me so I can't remember any of them!

HA! Yes--Dunk and Egg Tales are not . . . layered. I only got interested when I made the connection between Dunk's falling star and the Daynes. A falling star Martin brings back in via Brienne. So, that feels like a marker to me--a hint. Not proof, but a potential hint.

No idea if that's convincing or not, but there it is.

Edited by Sly Wren
I can't spell.

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2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed on Mance and Jon's fight--though Mance wasn't really in a fight for his life--he had other plans.

And I do like the parallel--underscores Mance as Rhaegar/Bael figure--and thus shows us again how a Stark Maid reacts: not enthralled.

On Ygritte: not really roundabout, though: it's the whole point of the story, to prove that he's as much her kin as the men she lost.

But he had been planning something at Harrenhal--Aerys' showing up wouldn't stop it. Just make it more difficult.

Rhaegar had been willing to kill his father using someone else's rebellion since Duskendale. He'd been working on this for years. He still had a plan--and was executing it. 

A cool theory--any evidence Rhaegar absolutely found out who the knight was?

Fair enough--I agree it's plausible. Just struggling to see the hints/evidence. . . 

Why? Sorry--I think I missed part of your original argument. I've had to be away and am thus behind.

Why ask Mance and not Aemon?

I admit it's possible. . . just struggling to see the evidence/hints. But it would be cool.

On the bolded--no: it was a long feud. That was just the latest insult. 

Not unlike Tywin's putting up with Aerys' behavior for years: and then Aerys called him a servant and refused to marry Cersei to Rhaegar or to name Jaime as Rhaegar's squire. 

And not unlike Walder Frey's MASSIVE chip on his shoulder over years of perceived and actual slights--leading to his being will to kill Robb and company.

I could definitely see this re: Bael. But Ygritte is claiming a specific ancestral connection. Drives the point home more than just "first men."

Or--means the echoes/parallels aren't ever going to be complete and exact?

Agreed--though I do think Lyanna might have been at the tower the was Sansa was: temporarily.

Agreed--even if the "tower" was elsewhere (IE: Starfall's Palestine Sword)

. Like Arianne as the princess in the tower.

One problem with this: In his dreams, Jon is drawn far, far deeper into the crypts than to Lyanna. All the way down to the Old Kings of Winter sowing out of their tombs. Or are you thinking Mance wanted something deep in the tombs?

Yeah--Robert as a Dornishman is. . . hard. He's the Storm Lord. Period. Gonna need more to make this work.

I do think Mance's look is significant. And I do think the song is a clue--though possibly more for the reader than for Jon, like Mance's red and black cloak.

Why would he assume a boy that looks like Ned Stark and is claimed by Ned Stark as his child was Lyanna's?

HA! My house words! We're blood, dude!:cheers:

Well what ever is going on with Mance and Rhaegar i think is tied to all the other event's in the North i keep going on about. Bael and the Stark Maid, Alysanne and a Stark. I suspect Mance and Craster of possibly being Bloodraven's bastards on some wildling (Maybe not knowing Bael had spread his gene up there, maybe he did know).  Meaning, maybe Mance has the sword, maybe not. Maybe Rhaegar wanted it back from him, and Aemon didn't know where it ended up. Or he did, and had no way of getting it back. And If Rhaegar unmasked the Knight to discover Lyanna under one theory, he can unmask (him as jojen calls him) and discover Mance. The Black brother who had came to Harrenhal.

So far as i can tell, the winter rose is a rare rose that only grows in the garden's of winterfell. Where did Rhaegar get them? Or are they not special to winterfell, and part of some older pact? Is there a legend with a rose? i havn't looked yet, Florian maybe? 

And dont knock Robert's Dornish ties. Where did the hammers fall? was not the waters near there once a freshwater bay or something rather. Could've swore that's where the world book implies the comet fell and broke the arm of Dorne from where it connected in the Storm Lands. Deep ties. Let us not forget Durran stealing the daughter of the god and dooming her to a mortals death (Galladon of Morne, Azor Ahai).

And yes, Ygrittes hinting at something deeper than a FM connection, as she is kissed by fire ;) Jon doesn't need Rhaegar for that connection. He's got it through Bael, and Mance imo.

This also all traces back to understanding Alysanne in my opinion as Maege Mormont has two daughters of interest, Lyanna, and Alysane. We know Maege is older than Rhaegar, so she's not Valyrian through him. 

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17 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

This is all very interesting. I’m intrigued.

i like the idea of house Dayne being more involved in the Rhaegar situation/the long night with the sword Dawn. I want Jon to be Rhaegar and Lyanna’s Son and while I do believe there is ample textual support, I will admit that the Rhaegar Ashara / Ser Arthur and Lyanna theories are compelling. 

:cheers:

17 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Questions I have:

1) why did lyanna get involved? Why was she with Rhaegar? Was she taken or did she go willingly? 

Ah--my current theory is here.

But if you don't want to slog through that (completely understandable), I basically think Lyanna ended up with Rhaegar by accident after running from trouble: as Arya does with Yoren and then with the brotherhood without banners--and even with the Hound.

Or how Jon makes a mistake and ends up getting taken by Mance's followers. 

Then, I think Rhaegar kept her as a useful hostage--as we see with Arya and the brotherhood, Arya and the Hound, Jon with Mance, and even Sansa with Baelish. 

Bottom line: I think the current "Stolen Stark Maids" in the text potentially give us info about what happened with Lyanna the Stolen Stark Maid.

 

17 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

2)Dany and the Red Door- I agree with many folks that the Red Door was not in Braavos but Dirne. dany beibg Ashara’s could explain this. 

Agreed.

17 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

3) Rhaegar has not been described as a playboy- Ned doesn’t think he would be the type to frequent brittles, and Jaime and Barristan think highly of him. So why did he do the things he did?

Excellent questions--if he's like Stannis, he's doing it to fulfill a prophecy--and to save the realm. If he's like Mance, doing it to win for his "kingdom" and to save his people. And Rhaegar seems focused on gaining the realm and fulfilling a prophecy. 

But I think there's an excellent chance he never had sex, consensual or not, with Lyanna. 

17 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

i read a while back in a heresay thread (babe in the woods? Eight cairns?) regarding a theory that there was a group of people convinced on the long night and working to stop it. Rhaegar, Elia, Lyanna, Ashara and Arthur involved, with possible others. I am wondering if “the dragon has three heads” is more important than we realize. At Danny’s vision at the house of the undying, Rhaegar tells presumably Elia that there must be one more, the dragon has three heads. We also know That Elia was told to have no more children. Could Rhaegar have attempted to impregnate both Ashara and Lyanna (covering bases), succeeding at both? 

I like it! And I fully buy the "cultish" implications of this theory. 

One thing: we see both Jon and Arya (Stolen Stark Maids) end up with cults:

In Jon's case, he's appalled by Stannis' cult and what Stannis is willing to do for his god and prophecy. 

In Arya's case, she's not impressed by the brotherhood because they won't help her. And even though she seeks out the Faceless Men, she's not a true believer: she never gives up Needle or her identity as a Stark. 

Seems like there's a good chance Martin is telling us that Stark Maids don't join cults.

That said, could Rhaegar have forced Lyanna? It's possible, though it seems out of character for Rhaegar. But if he did force Lyanna, would potentially echo the Bael Tale. And it may depend on how driven he was--we see Stannis commit atrocities, fully believing he's right. Rhaegar may have been similarly assured of his "rightness."

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7 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

With the imagery of Dany with her Dragons and Fire, I think she is a Targaryen. I think the biggest thought for an Ashara child is FAegon 

Agreed she's clearly a Targaryen.

But if she's Rhaegar's daughter via Ashara, she'd still be a Targaryen, no? 

Would explain why Barristan brings up out of literally nowhere that Dany looks like she could be Ashara's daughter. And why Dany sees herself in Rhaegar's armor (a la Star Wars). And the imagery of stars around Dany, not just fire and dragons. . .

But no way is this a done deal.

And I agree re: Faegon--that is definitely possible. Especially given what we've been told about the Daynes'  appearance/coloring.

3 hours ago, Sierra Esteban said:

While I like the displacement theory, it doesn't adequately explain why Eddard didn't hate Rhaegar.  The Starks are not  a forgiving people (the North remembers) and they are very easy to take offense.  Eddard disliked Littlefinger just for daring to fall in love with Catelyn.  Imagine the son of a lesser lord daring to fall in love with Catelyn and then challenging Brandon to a duel.  What an act of sin that was in the eyes of a Stark.   All I'm saying is the Starks would be hating on Rhaegar if he had even so much as touched Lyanna's hair.  Ooops, I meant head hair  :D

A married man with children of his own touching their sister.  That's enough for Eddard to hate Rhaegar.  But he didn't.  Maybe Lyanna ran away from home.  She found Rhaegar and invoked the ancient custom of guest rights to seek his shelter.  Rhaegar seems like an honorable fool.  Just the sort of guy who would take in a "maiden" in distress even if it's not the bright thing to do.   

Agreed--if Rhaegar ended up with Lyanna by accident, could see Ned's more neutral stance on Rhaegar making sense.

But if Rhaegar actually took her--no. Cannot see Ned as being neutral about Rhaegar at all. . . . 

As for Rhaegar taking her in when she asks for help--maybe. But he's got a kingdom to win and a prophecy to fulfill--he's been working on that for a while. Unlikely to do something reckless to potentially derail that.

Given how we see Mance, Stannis, the brotherhood, and even the Hound use the Stark Maids they end up with--I think it's possible Rhaegar thought he could use Lyanna as a useful hostage. Didn't hurt her at all--but didn't let her go, either--like Arya with the brotherhood. And with the Hound.

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3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed she's clearly a Targaryen.

But if she's Rhaegar's daughter via Ashara, she'd still be a Targaryen, no? 

Would explain why Barristan brings up out of literally nowhere that Dany looks like she could be Ashara's daughter. And why Dany sees herself in Rhaegar's armor (a la Star Wars). And the imagery of stars around Dany, not just fire and dragons. . .

But no way is this a done deal.

And I agree re: Faegon--that is definitely possible. Especially given what we've been told about the Daynes'  appearance/coloring.

Agreed--if Rhaegar ended up with Lyanna by accident, could see Ned's more neutral stance on Rhaegar making sense.

But if Rhaegar actually took her--no. Cannot see Ned as being neutral about Rhaegar at all. . . . 

As for Rhaegar taking her in when she asks for help--maybe. But he's got a kingdom to win and a prophecy to fulfill--he's been working on that for a while. Unlikely to do something reckless to potentially derail that.

Given how we see Mance, Stannis, the brotherhood, and even the Hound use the Stark Maids they end up with--I think it's possible Rhaegar thought he could use Lyanna as a useful hostage. Didn't hurt her at all--but didn't let her go, either--like Arya with the brotherhood. And with the Hound.

I do believe he initially took her as a hostage but I doubt he meant to harm her.  The problem was Brandon rushing to KL and shit hit the fan. (This is where I believe a mis/missed communication happened - Rhaegar's proposal didn't reach Brandon or was garbled).This was supposed to be a quiet mission, but with Brandon broadcasting she had been abducted etc.,  what could he do with her then? Return her?  The damage was done whether she'd been violated or not.  She's the daughter of the  Warden of the North and fiance of the Stormlord - war with them both was inevitable after something like that.  Aerys was mad but he knew it too, That's why he killed the Starks in his clutches and called for Robert and Net's heads.  And so Rhaegar finds himself in the same position as Brandon even though he didn't actually have sex with Lyanna - he has to marry her, but not only for the sake of her honour like Brandon, but if he has any hope of mitigating the circumstances and avoiding war. But doing that and broadcasting that means alienating Dorne so war can come from that direction too.

Just a clusterfuck all round in my opinion.

The thing is these circumstances he finds himself in would be the same ones if he had fallen passionately in love with her and run off with her.  War all round and he would have known it. For someone as politically savvy as Rhaegar, that just doesn't wash.  There is no way he ran off with her to cosy up at the TOJ just because he loved her or even was fulfilling a nebulous prophecy.

His and Arthur's plan should actually have worked. Any other man in the kingdom except hot headed Brandon would have fallen into line, and even Brandon might have if he was given the right message.

As to the Daynes not hating the Starks, we do know that a cover-up had to take place to mitigate Ashara's involvement, for her, but also possibly for a not quite dead still-born daughter that I believe Ashara's parents might have adopted for their own. Allyria Dayne to me is the best prospect for that child because if she was affianced to Beric Dondarrion, she was the right age, and was born more than fifteen years later than her other siblings, quite the anomaly.  So the Daynes raised a Stark child and were grateful to Ned's silence, and perhaps for not taking her.

Here's your other Stark maiden, Sly Wren, hiding in plain sight.  Or not. Lol.

Unless there was a baby switch because of the kid's looks. (Grins).  Brandon and Ashara's son, Jon, goes to Winterfell, while Rhaegar and Lyanna's daughter, Allyria, is raised at Starfall.  Wouldn't that be one for the history books?  Goes against all the symbolism and clues to Jon's identity but it would make a major switch up!

And does give Jon a direct claim on Dawn. Wink.

Edit: the more I think of it the more I like it!  The Reeds make oaths on ice and fire, an oath that predates the Valyrians.  Who, other than the Daynes, would be fire to the Starks ice in those prehistoric days?  Day and Night, Fire and Ice.  Is this a huge displacement in and of itself?  I just thought of this so I'm laughing at myself as I write it, but maybe, just maybe...

 

Edited by Lady Barbrey

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