Ironborn

[argonak]

The Ironborn are portrayed as reavers.  They have lots of ships and soldiers, and put a high cultural value on being warriors.  They're resource poor so raiding each other is proably not very rewarding, and culturally they're much against killing other ironborn.  At first I thought they might just be all fisherman who talk a big game and turn to reaving when the realm is at civil war and too weak to enforce peace, but after reading some of the ironborn chapters in AFFC, it seems like they've still got their reaving culture, even 300 years after the coquest. Lords like Rodrik the Reader seem to be an extreme minority amongst the ironborn, and even he had the impression of a retired reaver, rather than a more traditional feudal lord.

So have they spent the last 300 years raiding the Essos coastline?  Do they  sail around the whole of Westeros every year to go play pirate on another continent until its time to come home?  Or are they just permitted to do low level raiding and banditry along the westerosi coastline under normal circumstances, and only put down when they get out of hand? 

[Dorian Martell's son]

21 minutes ago, argonak said:

So have they spent the last 300 years raiding the Essos coastline?  Do they  sail around the whole of Westeros every year to go play pirate on another continent until its time to come home? 

yes 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stormking902]

They raid Essos, Summer isles, Step stones, etc. Yes its a longer sail time but they do what they have to do. 

[TheThreeEyedCow]

Yep. Euron, or his ship, Silence was allegedly active in every port from Ibben to Asshai. That's basically the half entire known coastline of Essos from North, circling west to Braavos, then south to the Free Cities and then east to past Mereen etc onto Asshai. Impressive, really.

[Nittanian]

Reaving has ebbed and flowed during ironborn history, even before the Iron Throne era.

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The Hoare kings also discouraged the practice of reaving. And as reaving declined, trade grew ...

... Both reaving and trade played a part in the restoration of the pride and prowess of the islands. Other lands now built larger and more formidable warships than the ironmen, but nowhere were sailors any more daring. Merchants and traders sailing from Lordsport on Pyke and the harbors of Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont spread out across the seas, calling at Lannisport, Oldtown, and the Free Cities, and returning with treasures their forebears had never dreamed of.

Reaving continued as well...but the "wolves of the sea" no longer hunted close to home, for the green-land kings had grown too powerful to provoke. Instead they found their prey in more distant seas, in the Basilisk Isles and the Stepstones and along the shores of the Disputed Lands. Some took service as sellsails, fighting for one or another of the Free Cities in their endless trade wars. (TWOIAF The Iron Islands: The Black Blood)

Large-scale reaving indeed stopped because of the Targaryens (with the historical exceptions of Dalton and Dagon Greyjoy).

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Aegon the Dragon had destroyed the Old Way when he burned Black Harren, gave Harren's kingdom back to the weakling rivermen, and reduced the Iron Islands to an insignificant backwater of a much greater realm. (ACOK Theon I)

 

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For long years afterward the ironborn remained quiescent under a succession of Greyjoy lords. Eschewing further thoughts of conquest, they lived by fishing, trade, and mining. All the width of Westeros lay between King's Landing and Pyke, and the ironborn had little and less to do with affairs at court. Life was hard upon the islands, especially in winter, but that was as it had always been. Some men still dreamed of a return to the Old Way, when the ironborn were a people to be feared, but the Stepstones and the Summer Sea were far away, and the Greyjoys on the Seastone Chair would allow no reaving closer to home. (TWOIAF The Iron Islands: The Greyjoys of Pyke)

 

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It had still been summer then; Robert sat the Iron Throne, Balon brooded on the Seastone Chair, and the Seven Kingdoms were at peace. Asha sailed the Black Wind down the coast, trading. They called at Fair Isle and Lannisport and a score of smaller ports before reaching the Arbor, where the peaches were always huge and sweet. (ADWD The Wayward Bride)

Ironborn sailors can still gain experience by reaving targets outside of Westeros, like pirates of the Stepstones and the Free Cities. 

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Aeron had been the last and least of the four krakens, Balon the eldest and boldest, a fierce and fearless boy who lived only to restore the ironborn to their ancient glory. At ten he scaled the Flint Cliffs to the Blind Lord's haunted tower. At thirteen he could run a longship's oars and dance the finger dance as well as any man in the isles. At fifteen he had sailed with Dagmer Cleftjaw to the Stepstones and spent a summer reaving. He slew his first man there and took his first two salt wives. (AFFC The Prophet)

 

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Asha said, "I was away when Silence sailed. I had taken Black Wind around the Arbor to the Stepstones, to steal a few trinkets from the Lyseni pirates." (AFFC The Iron Captain)

While some ironborn want the Old Way to return, others like Rodrik and Asha think its time has passed. Lord Blacktyde has adopted the Faith of the Seven, and Lord Merlyn behaves more like a mainlander. 

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"The Old Way served the isles well when we were one small kingdom amongst many, but Aegon's Conquest put an end to that. Balon refused to see what was plain before him. The Old Way died with Black Harren and his sons."

"I know that." Asha had loved her father, but she did not delude herself. Balon had been blind in some respects. A brave man but a bad lord.(AFFC The Kraken's Daughter)

 

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Victarion frowned. "Would you have me bend the knee?"

"If need be. We cannot stand alone against all Westeros. King Robert proved that, to our grief. Balon would pay the iron price for freedom, he said, but our women bought Balon's crowns with empty beds. My mother was one such. The Old Way is dead." (AFFC The Iron Captain)

The "good old days" are still spoken about fondly by some, but I wonder if it is a romanticized interpretation. 

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Yet the old red tales were still told around driftwood fires and smoky hearths all across the islands, even behind the high stone halls of Pyke. (ACOK Theon I)

 

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The better part of a century would pass before the kraken woke, yet the dreams never died, for the priests still stood knee deep in the salt sea preaching of the Old Way, whilst in a hundred wharfside brothels and sailor's taverns old men still told tales of days gone by, when the ironborn were rich and proud, and every oarsman had a dozen salt wives to warm his bed by night. Many a boy and young man grew drunk upon such stories, hungry for the glories of the reaver's life. (TWOIAF The Iron Islands: The Red Kraken)

 

[argonak]

Yes I've read the wiki.  But I feel like there's a conflict in what I'm getting from the books.  The ironborn want to return to a life of reaving, but they seem to already have that.  Otherwise why do they have the so many warships and warriors? Their ships aren't good for fishing or trade.  So they must be off fighting to support themselves.  And if they already can get all the looting and pillaging they want from essos and other places, why the big deal about returning to the "old way."  Raiding Westeros is likely to be a much less pleasant activity, as Westeros will fight back.  They're only successful right now because of the civil war, any other time the King or a Warden would just lead a fleet to squish them.   But if they're not doing that right now (and are mad about it), then why do they have so many bored warriors and fighting ships?  What were they doing before the start of the war?  They're not like the regular westerosi, who are normally landed knights with small manors they manage and support themselves with.  The ironborn have whole ships loaded with rower/fighters that they have to feed and reward.   They have to win victories to earn acclaim.  A warrior culture need someone to fight.

If the ironborn are spending all their time fighting Essos, shouldn't there be some sort of consequence or war for the 7 kingdoms?  its not like the free cities won't know where all these kraken guys are coming from.  A few dozen pirate ships wouldn't be a big deal, but hundreds of ironborn longships is going to start a war.

[Ylath's Snout]

Ehh the Ironborn always seed like a pretty low effort reskin of Vikings by GRRM to me.

Them keeping to a reaving culture after 300 years of forced peace with all their neighbours never sat right with me.

Honestly they shouldn't have had it before then. the era of Viking raiders lasted for about 250 years in our world before all reasonable targets where raided into oblivion or had gotten it's shit together to the point where raider were repulsed. How the fudge did they keep up with the reaving for thousands of years before Aegon showed up?

 

[Giant Ice Spider]

8 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Ehh the Ironborn always seed like a pretty low effort reskin of Vikings by GRRM to me.

Them keeping to a reaving culture after 300 years of forced peace with all their neighbours never sat right with me.

Honestly they shouldn't have had it before then. the era of Viking raiders lasted for about 250 years in our world before all reasonable targets where raided into oblivion or had gotten it's shit together to the point where raider were repulsed. How the fudge did they keep up with the reaving for thousands of years before Aegon showed up?

 

Exactly. Even in Harren's day, the Reach or Westerlands could probably have crushed the ironborn - those islands are small and infertile, so there cannot be a massive population there. And longships are no match for dromonds and galleys, so how could they win any naval battles?

[hodorisfaclessman]

18 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Ehh the Ironborn always seed like a pretty low effort reskin of Vikings by GRRM to me.

Them keeping to a reaving culture after 300 years of forced peace with all their neighbours never sat right with me.

Honestly they shouldn't have had it before then. the era of Viking raiders lasted for about 250 years in our world before all reasonable targets where raided into oblivion or had gotten it's shit together to the point where raider were repulsed. How the fudge did they keep up with the reaving for thousands of years before Aegon showed up?

 

Well easy explanation is everything in westeros seems.to be frozen in time  with limited  progress over 1000s of years

As for the ironborn they do trade (just greyjoys that ' do not sow') and we know they reave in stepstonesnand all along essos ,which seems to sustain their revaing culture on top of a vast swath of slavers and corsairs innthe east too

Mix that in with eras where the ironborn may have been much more trade focused ...we know balon was big into bringing back the old ways 

[hodorisfaclessman]

9 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

Exactly. Even in Harren's day, the Reach or Westerlands could probably have crushed the ironborn - those islands are small and infertile, so there cannot be a massive population there. And longships are no match for dromonds and galleys, so how could they win any naval battles?

I think theres been threads on this before  they can field  about as many men as the dornish at about 15k 

As for naval battles the biggest factor for that will always be the quality of sailors and captains so they will usualy hold an adv there  , the longships will be smaller yes  but most (esp the larger ironfleet ones) still capable of side ramming and boarding actions vs war galleys. The redwyne fleet is the only one larger in westeros than the ironfleet ,westerlands wouldnt be close and we know the ironfleet is only a fraction of the ironborn power.

Overall theyd be a nightmare at sea as youd expect 

 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 9/7/2018 at 12:01 PM, argonak said:

The Ironborn are portrayed as reavers.  They have lots of ships and soldiers, and put a high cultural value on being warriors.  They're resource poor so raiding each other is proably not very rewarding, and culturally they're much against killing other ironborn.  At first I thought they might just be all fisherman who talk a big game and turn to reaving when the realm is at civil war and too weak to enforce peace, but after reading some of the ironborn chapters in AFFC, it seems like they've still got their reaving culture, even 300 years after the coquest. Lords like Rodrik the Reader seem to be an extreme minority amongst the ironborn, and even he had the impression of a retired reaver, rather than a more traditional feudal lord.

So have they spent the last 300 years raiding the Essos coastline?  Do they  sail around the whole of Westeros every year to go play pirate on another continent until its time to come home?  Or are they just permitted to do low level raiding and banditry along the westerosi coastline under normal circumstances, and only put down when they get out of hand? 

They raid outside of the kingdom.  Which reflected poorly on the rulers of Westeros for allowing a vassal to engage in piracy.  They must have caused property losses for the Free Cities of the east and yet we have nothing in the story that says the iron throne effectively stopped the Ironborn.   It reflects badly on the Targaryens and the Baratheons to allow this to continue.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 9/7/2018 at 3:47 PM, Ylath's Snout said:

How the fudge did they keep up with the reaving for thousands of years before Aegon showed up?

The same steaming hot fudge that keeps dragons, not-elves, ice demons, shadow baby assassins, mystical napalm, animal possessors, hairy mammoth riding giants, religious pyromaniacs, living god people  and networked trees alive and well. 

[Ylath's Snout]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

dragons, not-elves, ice demons, shadow baby assassins, mystical napalm, animal possessors, hairy mammoth riding giants, religious pyromaniacs, living god people  and networked trees alive and well. 

I disagree, all that is magic (well maybe wildfire is technically not magic) that works because the rules of ASoIaF's world is different.

The fact that targets of reaving has done very little over thousands of years to adapta is very odd. The large cities of Essos apparently started to deal with Dothraki either by paying them off or by using special anti-Dothraki troops (the Unsullied) to mitigate the danger. So society can adapt to changes in a relatively short time span.

 

[The Sleeper]

The history of the Ironborn is about the same as the other kingdom's being ruled by more or less the same dynasties for thousands of years and having more or less the same borders for similar amounts of time. It is all exaggerated for being part of a fantasy series.

The Ironborn did suffer a lot of invasions that did a lot of damage and that they took centuries to recover from. As long as reaving did not cross a certain threshold, it simply would not be worth the trouble of subduing them constantly. After all the iron islands are not much of a prospect for conquest.

Another factor is that history and legend is more like to recall violent episodes from both sides. There wouldn't be many songs about longships appearing with fine iron ingots and salted cod and loading up on grain and textiles. 

Still there could have been a lot more interaction between the Ironborn and the rest of the seven kingdoms, like houses on the mainland descending from the Iron Islands having been assimilated and that sort of thing. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

21 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

I disagree, all that is magic (well maybe wildfire is technically not magic) that works because the rules of ASoIaF's world is different.

The fact that targets of reaving has done very little over thousands of years to adapta is very odd. The large cities of Essos apparently started to deal with Dothraki either by paying them off or by using special anti-Dothraki troops (the Unsullied) to mitigate the danger. So society can adapt to changes in a relatively short time span.

Again, magic=totes acceptable but people differing from the real world is somehow not? Why? 

[Nittanian]

On 9/9/2018 at 2:29 AM, The Sleeper said:

Still there could have been a lot more interaction between the Ironborn and the rest of the seven kingdoms, like houses on the mainland descending from the Iron Islands having been assimilated and that sort of thing. 

That seems to have happened with House Kenning of Kayce in the westerlands (founded by Herrock Kayce of Harlaw) and the people of Cape Kraken in the north. 

[Ylath's Snout]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Again, magic=totes acceptable but people differing from the real world is somehow not? Why? 

Well I mentioned magic because you brought it up. Accepting magic in a fantasy is pretty much the price of admittance.

I just personally think that as written the Ironborn are a weak-point in the world building of aSoIaF. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

12 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Well I mentioned magic because you brought it up. Accepting magic in a fantasy is pretty much the price of admittance.

I just personally think that as written the Ironborn are a weak-point in the world building of aSoIaF. 

 I feel that if you can suspend your disbelief for everything else, like a 700 foot tall 300 mile long ice wall, the IB are a minor annoyance  

[Ylath's Snout]

Just now, Dorian Martell's son said:

I feel that if you can suspend your disbelief for everything else, like a 700 foot tall 300 mile long ice wall, the IB are a minor annoyance 

Ehhh, for me at least that is different.

Like I said, accepting magic in a fantasy book isn't a big deal for me*. The ironborn are IMHO one of the weakest parts of the "realistic" part of aSoIaF alongside the slavers trying to take Meereen using slave soldiers that are bound in chains during the fighting.

Because GRRM does such a great job with making mainland Westeros feel like a real world with a lot of depth and shades of grey the Ironborn stand out as a bunch of "Always chaotic Evil Warrior race guys". That and the rest of Westeros not adapting to their raiding over thousands of years is a part of the world that feel poorly justified by the writing so far.

Also I'm for Sweden so uninspired and poorly thought out viking rehashes tend to rub me the wrong way.

*That said some examples of magic just don't work for me. For example I never got into HP because the magic system felt arbitrary and under-explained in a series about a school for spellcasters.

[Dorian Martell's son]

16 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Ehhh, for me at least that is different.

Like I said, accepting magic in a fantasy book isn't a big deal for me*. The ironborn are IMHO one of the weakest parts of the "realistic" part of aSoIaF alongside the slavers trying to take Meereen using slave soldiers that are bound in chains during the fighting.

Because GRRM does such a great job with making mainland Westeros feel like a real world with a lot of depth and shades of grey the Ironborn stand out as a bunch of "Always chaotic Evil Warrior race guys". That and the rest of Westeros not adapting to their raiding over thousands of years is a part of the world that feel poorly justified by the writing so far.

Also I'm for Sweden so uninspired and poorly thought out viking rehashes tend to rub me the wrong way.

*That said some examples of magic just don't work for me. For example I never got into HP because the magic system felt arbitrary and under-explained in a series about a school for spellcasters.

They aren't though. We get Asha's and Theon's pov. We get Aeron's pov as well